The diaspora effect can also work the other way.

Wait a minute— just because people follow “traditional culture’ (as defined by you) does NOT mean they are always alienated from mainstream culture.

I am definitely not implying that, as can be seen in #69.

YOU!

At least we agree that one of us is wrong.

You really think I am talking about Indo-Americans en masse, or just the ones that hold a castist like mentality?

We are talking about immigrants en masse, and the culture dynamic of 2nd/3rd/4th gen vis-a-vis the ancestral culture of 1st gen immigrant. I am defending two things (#69):

1) That in 2nd-gen onwards, we play around with two identities – the ancestral one and the mainstream (dominant culture of the host country) one.
2) That as you move through generations, you start losing the ancestral link and start adopting the cultural aspects of the host country. The corollary of this is that descendants of immigrants that live in a liberal diverse setting will be more likely (notice not saying there are no exceptions) adopt liberal values, and reject some of the cultural prejudices of the ancestral culture.

What in god’s name are you doing by reading a blog and posting comments while you are in Italy? Try the ‘frutta alla mostarda’ when you wolf down a steak or something red meat.

Certo che mi ricordo di te perché sono in italia, grazie mille per il suggerimento!

It is completely counter-intuitive that 2nd/3rd/4th gen living in a new country can be completely alienated from the mainstream culture, and keep up with the same traditional culture as 1st gen. I define mainstream as the culture shared by the majority of the population, and “traditional” the ancestral culture from 1st gen immigrants…..It is also counter-intuitive to me that 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen living in liberal countries in a diverse setting keep the same prejudices as 1st gen immigrant, specially if they go to school with others.

In theory, Ravi. In theory. The problem is, human beings are strange creatures, and don’t always behave or react in ways one would expect or predict

Although your reasoning is correct hypothetically, and there are plenty of people (let’s focus on Asians, for obvious reasons) who do think and act in the manner you’ve described, you and I both know that there are also plenty of 2nd/3rd generation people within some Asian populations right here in Blighty who do indeed perpetuate a lot of their older generation’s prejudices and “traditional” cultural norms.

It all depends on the specific individual, how much they’re influenced by their older relatives/social circles, how many people from the same background are present in any particular setting, and whether their experiences with people from different backgrounds in more diverse environments have been (and continue to be) positive or negative.

Again, I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, by any means — just saying that these observations and comments don’t always apply to everyone, especially if one is comparing the Asian community in the UK to our counterparts in the US. Also, just to be clear, my comments apply equally to Desi Italiana’s statements, although I think she’s realised that. There is a considerable element of truth in what you’ve both been saying.

Interestingly, the percentage of marriage to non-desis by Asians in the US is much higher than the rate amongst British Asians.

Isn’t that what everyone does around here?

“Well, I think one of us is wrong.”

YOU!

“I am in Italy right now – in a place called Ancona. My Italian is improving a lot. ”

What in god’s name are you doing by reading a blog and posting comments while you are in Italy?

Try the ‘frutta alla mostarda’ when you wolf down a steak or something red meat.

Also, if you have time, head down to the south.

Wait a minute— just because people follow “traditional culture’ (as defined by you) does NOT mean they are always alienated from mainstream culture.

“Desi’s description of Indo-Americans seems to me like a crude caricature.”

You really think I am talking about Indo-Americans en masse, or just the ones that hold a castist like mentality?

So, in my view, neither you nor Desi Italiana is wrong in what you are both saying. It’s just that your respective reference points and experiences are different.

Well, I think one of us is wrong. It is completely counter-intuitive that 2nd/3rd/4th gen living in a new country can be completely alienated from the mainstream culture, and keep up with the same traditional culture as 1st gen. I define mainstream as the culture shared by the majority of the population, and “traditional” the ancestral culture from 1st gen immigrants.

It is also counter-intuitive to me that 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen living in liberal countries in a diverse setting keep the same prejudices as 1st gen immigrant, specially if they go to school with others. Desi’s description of Indo-Americans seems to me like a crude caricature.

By all means, add whatever anecdotes that you wish, whether they involve Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, or not. Just, you know, read my comments before commenting on them…

Desi Italiana, let me be clear about this. Anyone killing their children because they don’t want them marrying against the family’s wishes is a criminal. There is no honour in killing family or otherwise. It is at times like this I have a hard time arguing the death penalty. Or maybe a parent who bumps off his daughter should be locked up for life and made to repent his vile deed.

And so now for anecdotes.

Family#1 Dawoodi Bohra brother and sister. Brother (my friend is married to a vegetarian Sindhi and turned away from meat entirely. His sister married a Guarati Hindu and changed her name from Razia to Rajini and became a Hindu. It helped that both the couples speak fluent Gujarati. My friend and his wife visit Siddhi Vinayaka at least once a month.

Family#2 – Kutchi Memon man married to a Bengali Hindu for 35 years. He has two sons – both of whom have a Hindu 1st name and a Muslim middle name.

Family#3 – Muslim Pathan family – three boys and two girls. The 2nd son married a Malayali Christian-Hindu. The 1st sister married a Hindu. The family adopted a girl baby about 15 years ago and brought her up as a Hindu and this year they celebrated Ganesh Puja at home, with hejab clad ladies and capped gentlemen before Ramzan lining up for the aarti. Salman Khan anyone?

Five years back the CM of Pakistan Punjab decided that Basant and Holi should be an official festival. He invited the pandit to the CM’s residence, who applied a tilak on his forehead. Recently the legislators in Baluchistan have banded together to renivate Hinglaj Mata mandir in Gwadar and are threatening to physically evict land grabbers.

Three years back when the Minnesota Hindu Mandir was vandalised, a group of Bangladeshi-Muslim-Americans organised a benefit concert to fund the repairs!

I am always hopeful. As much hate as we see, we will see even more love and understanding.

I tend to agree with that, but I’m not sure why. Maybe if you talked us through your reasoning? Both are often economic decisions, is social pressure the dividing factor? Something else?

As for the bulk of your comment, obviously I have no knowledge whatever about whether Gujurati sikhs and Punjabi hindus (or variations thereof) find inter-marriage acceptable. In such matters I just tend to assume that Desi and Sonia are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

Simplistic and of no value to the debate, but it works for me.

What’s your point? Are honour killings or offing people because they decided to get with people ‘outside’ of ‘their community’ ok?

“As usual Desi Italiana is hyperventilating about how Hindus in the West try to keep their children married within the fold – never mind that this is exactly what Christians, Muslims, Jains, and Sikhs also outside India practice.”

If you read my comments, you wouldn’t be saying that, but there you go.

As regards abortion, which I endorse as a woman’s right to choice, it is no one’s case that it should be the first resort for birth control. But I also oppose, condemn, and demand the strictest penalties for families, and doctors who abort girl babies. The freedom to choose and sex-selective-abortion are not one and the same.

A small point, since I decided to quickly check my email at this ungodly hour and ended up taking a momentary drive-through detour on PP.

You and Desi Italiana are actually both correct — within the context of immigrant experiences and behaviour in the UK and the US respectively. Remember that in some ways the two countries are quite different regarding race relations, attitudes to racial matters etc (although there is obviously an overlap to some extent).

This includes attitudes amongst members of the younger generations in their respective South Asian populations. Yes, there is definitely a lot of common ground, but in other aspects the history and cultural development of the two populations have followed different paths (so far). I’m not going to expand on this because, well, frankly I can’t be arsed, especially as I remember the subject repeatedly being beaten to death, resuscitated by a skilled surgeon, and then beaten to death all over again by myself and some online friends on my old stomping ground of Sepia Mutiny a few years ago.

So, in my view, neither you nor Desi Italiana is wrong in what you are both saying. It’s just that your respective reference points and experiences are different.