Sunny Hundal website



  • Family

    • Liberal Conspiracy
    • Sunny Hundal
  • Comrades

    • Andy Worthington
    • Angela Saini
    • Bartholomew’s notes
    • Bleeding Heart Show
    • Bloggerheads
    • Blood & Treasure
    • Campaign against Honour Killings
    • Cath Elliott
    • Chicken Yoghurt
    • Daily Mail Watch
    • Dave Hill
    • Dr. Mitu Khurana
    • Europhobia
    • Faith in Society
    • Feminism for non-lefties
    • Feministing
    • Gender Bytes
    • Harry’s Place
    • IKWRO
    • MediaWatchWatch
    • Ministry of Truth
    • Natalie Bennett
    • New Statesman blogs
    • Operation Black Vote
    • Our Kingdom
    • Robert Sharp
    • Rupa Huq
    • Shiraz Socialist
    • Shuggy’s Blog
    • Stumbling and Mumbling
    • Ta-Nehisi Coates
    • The F Word
    • Though Cowards Flinch
    • Tory Troll
    • UK Polling Report
  • In-laws

    • Aaron Heath
    • Douglas Clark's saloon
    • Earwicga
    • Get There Steppin’
    • Incurable Hippie
    • Neha Viswanathan
    • Power of Choice
    • Rita Banerji
    • Sarah
    • Sepia Mutiny
    • Sonia Faleiro
    • Southall Black Sisters
    • The Langar Hall
    • Turban Head

  • Well whaddya know?


    by Rohin
    6th January, 2006 at 12:14 pm    

    Surprise! In an update to Sunny’s thread, the MCB are back in the news. They’ve decided that homosexuality is okay and that we should all just get along. They’ve said that holocaust memorial day is an important day to remember an horrific genocide.

    Sort of.

    Homosexuality is immoral and spreads disease, and civil partnerships are damaging to society, according to Britain’s most senior Muslim leader

    Sir Iqbal Sacranie, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, said that same-sex relationships risked damaging the foundations of society, and scientific evidence showed that homosexuality carried high health risks.

    Speaking about civil partnerships, the first of which took place in Britain last month, Sir Iqbal said: “It does not augur well in building the very foundations of society: stability, family relationships. And it is something we would certainly not in any form encourage the community to be involved in.” [Link]

    The article goes on to quote Tatchell, Alan Duncan (an openly gay MP) and Stephen Pound, who says that although it may come as a shock to Mr Sacranie, he knows many gay Muslims who are living perfectly normal, decent lives.

    It may come as a shock to one of our commenters as well, who says “Cotravening one rule does not make a person not a muslim. Note it is stated that whilst one commits the sinful act they are not a muslim at the time of committing the act but are a muslim both before and after…One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam.”

    The MCB have also opted to avoid the Holocaust Memorial Day for the second year running, claiming:

    The MCB would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day providing that it clearly affirmed that the lives of all people, regardless of race or religion, are to be valued equally,” he said. “This is why the Muslim Council has consistently called for a genocide memorial day.


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: Culture,Current affairs,Religion






    75 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Opinionated Voice

      Gays are immoral

      “HOMOSEXUALITY is immoral and spreads disease, and civil partnerships are damaging to society.”
      The Times reports on the comments by Sir Iqbal Sacranie (MCB), subsequently being debated over at Pickled Politics (join it). Contrary to the…




    1. Col. Mustafa — on 6th January, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

      What a bunch of muppets.

      “Homosexuality is immoral and spreads disease, and civil partnerships are damaging to society, according to Britain’s most senior Muslim leader”

      Heterosexuality also spreads disease. And whose society exactly is getting damaged here by civil partnerships, cos it aint mine.

    2. Rohin — on 6th January, 2006 at 12:49 pm  

      Well there’s that obvious response Colonel - that heterosexuality spreads disease too. But what I first thought of is that he immediately assumes UNSAFE SEX is involved. Homosexuality per se doesn’t spread disease. I can sit here and be gay and I don’t think I’ll get AIDS.

      Likewise, if gay sex is safe, it’s not spreading any disease - but then again Mustafa, the immorality’s still there eh?!

      For anyone whose seen Politics by Ricky Gervais:

      “Why not try coming out of the window” !!

    3. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 12:52 pm  

      “They’ve decided that homosexuality is okay ”

      Who are they? ( I take it you mean MCB)
      Do you have any statements?

      ——————

      “Note it is stated that whilst one commits the sinful act they are not a muslim at the time of committing the act but are a muslim both before and after…One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam.”

      Who states this?

      ————

      The MCB would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day providing that it clearly affirmed that the lives of all people, regardless of race or religion, are to be valued equally,” he said. “This is why the Muslim Council has consistently called for a genocide memorial day.

      Excellent. Makes sense.

    4. Col. Mustafa — on 6th January, 2006 at 12:58 pm  

      hehehe, there just being stubborn. Muslims always do this, i suppose its the position there in.
      They will never fully accept it like alot of the Christians and Jews do because that would be copying them.
      Muslims are pure dude, were special and we can’t copy anyone.

      They haven’t actually said that they would even tolerate gays , there still saying its immoral and wrong and bad and and its WRONGG.

      hehehehe, there bad people i tell you, and they destroy society just like these fundies are doing.
      But the fundies aren’t trying it on with me so they can carry on.

    5. Rohin — on 6th January, 2006 at 12:59 pm  

      Waxon. The first statement is sarcasm. You know, the lowest form of wit. Yes we make no bones about it here at PP, our wit is low. The MCB wouldn’t say anything as progressive as that, they’re medieval dinosaurs.

      The second statement was made in Sunny’s thread about homosexuality, comment number 69.

      Sure the last statement sounds reasonable - but it’s no reason to boycott an already existing memorial day.

    6. Clive — on 6th January, 2006 at 1:13 pm  

      The MCB would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day providing that it clearly affirmed that the lives of all people, regardless of race or religion, are to be valued equally

      Yeah, that must be why Sacranie was whining a few years back about HMD being too inclusive in that it remembered gay people killed by the Nazis. The man is slime; homophobic, anti-semitic slime.

    7. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 2:31 pm  

      “Yeah, that must be why Sacranie was whining a few years back about HMD being too inclusive in that it remembered gay people killed by the Nazis”

      Can you post some statement from the ‘few years back’

      HMD is an event which conveys bigotry. No race is superior to another.

    8. BevanKieran — on 6th January, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

      waxon

      BBC response to MCB complaint on Panorama documentary.

      news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4297490.stm

      Your press release of 26 January 2001 cites Palestine as the first of two reasons for the MCB’s “inability to attend”:

      “1. Firstly, it totally excludes and ignores the ongoing genocide and violation of Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, in Jammu and Kashmir and elsewhere.

      2. It includes the controversial question of alleged Armenian genocide as well as the so-called gay genocide.”

    9. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

      Rohin you have basically whined in your posting offering selective reasons which were at your disposal…a real shame.

      Maybe if we start contextualising stories we would learn something.

    10. Rohin — on 6th January, 2006 at 4:59 pm  

      Whined? Haha, did you read it? I merely stated what he said! It was as un-opinionated as possible, most of it was quotations.

      Your stance is apparent from your instant defence of Sacranie and from your blog. So tell me, if this genocide memorial day becomes a reality, will we also commemorate all the war crimes perpetrated by Muslims, upon non-Muslims and other Muslims? Funny how Sacranie never mentions those.

    11. Jezza — on 6th January, 2006 at 5:28 pm  

      underling problem is that the holocaust is being used for israeli propaganda. .

    12. Don — on 6th January, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      …holocaust is being used for israeli propaganda

      Examples? And since the holocaust actually happened (no debate required) it’s hard to see how it can be classified as propaganda. Certainly it is central to how Israel looks at its place in the world. That’s understandable if you just think about it for a few moments.

      Using the resources of a modern, industrialised nation to exterminate a race is a crime of a different order to the kind of routine brutality nations and factions impose on others. It has nothing to do with Zionism or Palestine.

      Waxon; you asked a question, you got an answer. What’s your problem? Apart from having a website that
      suggests;

      ‘All they have to do is produce the provable facts that back the claim of an officially government sanctioned Nazi program that exterminated 6 million people targeted against just the Jewish people.’

      But hell, you’re not an anti-semitic holocaust denier, just a sceptic who has chosen the holocaust to be sceptical about. No hidden agenda there.

    13. Steve M — on 6th January, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      Boll*cks, Jezza

    14. Steve M — on 6th January, 2006 at 5:52 pm  

      Sorry, Jezza, I’ve re-read your post. You meant that the holocaust is being used as Israeli propoganda by Ahmadinejad. I should have spotted that.

    15. BevanKieran — on 6th January, 2006 at 6:08 pm  

      According to Sacranie, Holocaust Memorial Day is one of the reasons that can turn Muslims towards extremism.

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1775068,00.html

      Which is of course bollocks, but then the MCB have an uncanny knack of deflecting criticism away from themselves and towards Jews, sorry Zionists, or Jews. The Panorama documentary, highlighting their support of Mawdudist ideology and their reactionary approach to Holocaust memorial day, was dismissed as pandering to a pro-Israeli agenda.

    16. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 8:47 pm  

      Based on the line “Homosexuality is immoral and spreads disease, and civil partnerships are damaging to society”, I wouldnt say the MCB have decided it is OK.

      Thanks for quoting me Rohin. I’ll clarify the meaning here.

      The Prophet said, “The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter.”

    17. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 8:54 pm  

      Regarding a ‘genocide memorial day’, I consider it to be a good thing that would also recognise the mass murder of Muslims and others in Palestine, Chechnya, Darfur and Bosnia as well as people of other faiths and countries throughout history including the colonial era, Rwanda and the WW2 holucaust where jews, Sinti and Roma populations of Europe, Poles, Russian POWs, ethnic Slavs, Homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the physically and mentally disabled, Communist, Socialists, Trade Unionists and political dissidents died.

    18. NorahJones — on 6th January, 2006 at 8:55 pm  

      I heard something funny recently, came from a practising muslim.

      It is ok to have feelings for the same sex (this is in the Quran apparently) BUT it’s wrong to act on those feelings.

      That’s not fair is it?

      You can love them but not express it. So it’s like punishment… I dunno.

    19. NorahJones — on 6th January, 2006 at 8:57 pm  

      Jamal, how’s about a clean slate and they just stop
      killing ??

      Ain’t happening dude.

    20. Bikhair — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:12 pm  

      “Note it is stated that whilst one commits the sinful act they are not a muslim at the time of committing the act but are a muslim both before and after…”

      So they are apostate when they commit the act? This doesnt make sense. British Muslims dont make sense.

      “One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam.”

      There are acts that you can commit that our a form of kufr that can expell you from the fold of Islam. Being and acting as a homosexual isnt one of them. Its punishable but it doesnt make you a kafir.

      It should be noted that in Islam shirk is worse gay sex. Gay sex can be forgiven, Allah (azawajal) has stated many times in the Quran and it is understood by the Prophet’s Sunnah that shirk i.e. associating partners with Allah cant be forgiven.

    21. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:13 pm  

      “That’s not fair is it?”

      Fair is not the point, it is about what is right.

    22. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:20 pm  

      Bikhair.. this is the hadith:

      he Prophet said, “The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter.”

      Correct, shirk is the worst sin, unforgivable. Nevertheless, based on the quran, homosexuality is an act worthy of death. I call no-one a Kafir, but would advise against living a life under the category of a sin worthy of death, without acknowledging or repenting for the wrongdoing, but instead promoting it as lawful.

    23. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:26 pm  

      “It is ok to have feelings for the same sex (this is in the Quran apparently) BUT it’s wrong to act on those feelings”

      Can you and your practising Muslim friend back this up?
      Or is just another string of posts we should all ignore…

      Jonathon Sacks is just as anti-semetic as “Sir” Sacranie

    24. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:34 pm  

      “And since the holocaust actually happened (no debate required) it’s hard to see how it can be classified as propaganda”

      Why is it ok for Jews to question the obvious abuse of the ‘Holocaust’ by Zionists for political purposes and not for anyone else? You cannot just call people anti-semetic, it is incredibly stupid.

      The Holocaust happened. We should then learn from the Holocaust and prevent any other, but it does not help when there is a clear sense of Jewish superiority over other races/victims of massacres/war/ethnic cleansing. It is quite franly a disgusting action by largely Zionists Jews. Now I have not said all Jews follow this…it is true their are Jews against this. If you don’t believe me, i will actually post you news reports from Holocaust survivors/Israeli Politicians/Jewish citizens from all over the World? Let me know….

      And if you think I am anti-semetic, so be it. Only God Can Judge Me….is it anti-semetic to say Jews killed Jesus, if this is the case then you are against over a billion Christians because this is what they read….and at the same time maybe we should look at what Zionist Jews preach about others….and we will have a case of ‘Anti anything that is not Jew’

      Go think, but then you have cold hearts.

    25. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

      “And since the holocaust actually happened (no debate required”

      No debate is required either for the persecution of other races either…

      No race is superior to another…..this is what Islam preaches, what does Judaism?

    26. Jezza — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:42 pm  

      lol

      i bet gays will say sacranie is secretly a homosexual.

    27. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 9:46 pm  

      Bikhair, further to what i said, an intresting quote from the quran is, “Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? And on the day of judgement they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.” (2:85).

      Waxon, im not sure who you refered that to but im not sure of the answer. my opinion would be that it is not ok to have such feelings as they do not refer to ok acts, but then things do happen automatically, so i would think the emphasis would be upon what was done with those feelings.. ie, was they pursued or not.

      you may be intrested in reading, The Muslim View Of Homosexuality

    28. waxon — on 6th January, 2006 at 10:11 pm  

      I don’t look at Homosexuality from an Islamic perspective. I look at it from a natural perspective which co-ordinates with the Islamic perspective.

      There is no evidence to prove Homosexuality is natural.

      Man and Women were made to pro-create in my view.

      What I find odd about Homosexuals ias a Human who sits on this Earth is the ‘tone’ they speak with and the ‘flapping’ of hands in a feminine manner…where does this come from?

    29. jamal — on 6th January, 2006 at 10:18 pm  

      lol.. maybe TV… then theres the high voices also.. additionally irritating!

    30. Old Pickler — on 6th January, 2006 at 10:38 pm  

      Yes we make no bones about it here at PP, our wit is low.

      Not as low as mine, though.

      The second statement was made in Sunny’s thread about homosexuality, comment number 69.

      69, chuckle chuckle tee hee.

      the ‘flapping’ of hands in a feminine manner

      Yeah, those feminine flaps, eh?

    31. Don — on 6th January, 2006 at 10:56 pm  

      jamal/waxon;

      Hey, get a room.

    32. Bikhair — on 6th January, 2006 at 11:20 pm  

      Jamal,

      Thanks for the correction.

    33. NorahJones — on 7th January, 2006 at 1:20 am  

      “Fair is not the point, it is about what is right. ”
      And you know what “right” is Jamal?

      “Can you and your practising Muslim friend back this up?
      Or is just another string of posts we should all ignore…”

      Sigh. Waxon, note the use of “apparently”. Did I at any point agree?

    34. jamal — on 7th January, 2006 at 1:23 am  

      If we are referring this to Islam. Then the Quran says what is right and wrong. Read back the coments and click on the links and this is what you will find.

    35. NorahJones — on 7th January, 2006 at 1:42 am  

      No ta.

    36. jamal — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:02 am  

      Well whaddya know?

      A gay magazine which described immigrants as “criminals of the worst kind” and Islam as a “barmy doctrine” has been condemned as racist by other gay rights groups. According to the magazine of the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association (Galha), Islam is growing “like a canker” in the UK through “unrestrained and irresponsible breeding”. Guardian
      Guardian 2

    37. j0nz — on 7th January, 2006 at 12:28 pm  

      I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.

      Voltaire

    38. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

      Don:

      “jamal/waxon;

      Hey, get a room. “

      Hahaha! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day! I’ll put a proper response to recent comments up after me lunch.

    39. El Cid — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:22 pm  

      Nevertheless, based on the quran, homosexuality is an act worthy of death.

      me think he doth protest too much

    40. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:40 pm  

      Jamal, that passage you quote is interesting:

      “The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter.”

      Thus, a gay man is only sinning whilst he has sex with another man, right? As long as you remember to repent after sex, you’re in the clear! Gay Muslims, I’ve figured it out for you. Hug ‘n’ roll, chuck condom away, repent.

      ‘Genocide’ is being chucked around too much. The definition, according to the Geneva Convention, is:

      “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group”

      Thus many of the examples that those who object to Holocaust memorial day put forward are not genocide. They could be horrific war crimes - but not genocide. So if you want a ‘war crimes remembrance day’, that’s a separate issue - and Remembrance Sunday does claim to remember deaths from all wars now.

      Waxon has brought some real comedy to this thread, I’m glad he arrived.

      “but it does not help when there is a clear sense of Jewish superiority over other races/victims of massacres/war/ethnic cleansing”

      Why is it that only Muslims complain about this ‘Jewish superiority’? I’m not Muslim nor Jewish, I don’t infer any Jewish superiority.

      ias a Human who sits on this Earth is the ‘tone’ they speak with and the ‘flapping’ of hands in a feminine manner…where does this come from?

      Wow, you notice that as a human sitting on this Earth. Deep bro. Jamal joined in:

      “then theres the high voices also.. additionally irritating!”

      My goodness, what worldy men you are! Are you now saying being CAMP is immoral and un-Islamic? There are plenty of effeminate straight men, are they also sinners?

    41. Siddhartha — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:47 pm  

      Lets face it, if the MCB were to Holocaust Memorial Day, they would have no other recourse but to state plainly their position of Muslim on Muslim Genocide. And the one that thats been discussed quite extensively here on PP is the genocide is East Pakistan in 1971.

      I suspect that the vast majority of MCB board members are Pakistani - so we have a problem with a conflict of allegiances right there.

    42. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:49 pm  

      Oh and nobody answered my question. Waxon, jamal?

      If you need some examples, may I refer you to:

      (old) Genghis Khan, Mahmud of Ghazni, Mohammed Ghori and later the Delhi Sultanate

      (more recent) the 1915-1917 Armenian genocide (one of the biggest of all time) or the murder of 3 million East Pakistanis by the West Pakistani army?

      If Mr, sorry, Sir Iqbal and waxon agree that these terrible chapters in history should be remembered along with the heinous slaughter of Muslims he mentions, his idea will gain a lot more respect and impetus.

    43. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 2:51 pm  

      Snap Siddhartha

    44. Jai — on 7th January, 2006 at 5:17 pm  

      Excellent examples and exactly what I was thinking — although, going by the “Can’t be Muslim while one’s sinning” claims from the other thread, you know that the loophole which could be used here is people claiming that Ghengis, Ghazni etc were not acting according to Islamic principles during these atrocities and that, therefore, the very notion of Muslim-perpetrated genocide is an oxymoron. How convenient.

      In addition to the names you’ve stated, there are other notable examples from the Mughal era and immediate post-Mughal/pre-Maharajah Ranjit Singh period (ie. approx. 1707 - 1800) which we could also add to the list, but I think you get the general idea.

    45. El Cid — on 7th January, 2006 at 6:00 pm  

      Was Genghis Khan a moslem? You sure?
      I thought he was the Arab world’s enemy #1 (before the creation of Israel of course).
      He was the self-styled “scourge of god”, apparently, although the Mongols let people practice their religions freely once in control. Sounds like a nice fellah.
      But apart from that, I couldn’t agree more, Rohin.

    46. jamal — on 7th January, 2006 at 6:24 pm  

      Rohin.. I dont see your point. Nowhere have I said that genocides also committed by muslims should not be included. A genocide day should emcompass all genocides and many of the acts throughout history that can be descrided by the definition you have provided, not just the one against jews. If MCB do not accept this then they should. Because everybody is on the jew bandwagon, nobody has probably thought to question them on this. Maybe you should drop them a line?

      In terms of the Islamic view on unlawful sexual intercourse which you consider to be a “loophole”, you are somewhat misguided. If a person practices homosexuality and then repents then Allah is forgiving.

      The Prophet said, “One who has repented of a sin (sincerely) is like one who has never sinned at all.”

      Forgiveness is something that many religions include. Many commit various sins and agree they are wrong and seek forgiveness. The Qur’an says “O you who believe! Turn to God in true, sincere repentance.” (66: 8). “Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards” (4:17).

      ‘Fake’ repentance is not a get out of jail free card; “Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell” (66:9).

      The Prophet said: “When a servant of Allah commits a sin a black spot is planted in his heart. If he gives up that sin and asks Almighty Allah for forgiveness, his heart gets purified. But if he returns to sinning, the black spot widens until it causes the heart to rust altogether.” (At-Tirmidhi)

      This is referred to in the Quran; “By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the which they do! (83: 14).

      “As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).” (2:6-7)

      “Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? And on the day of judgement they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.” (2:85).

      Therefore I would assume this does not mean fake repentance to achieve your loophole is benefitting. I would not think a person would really think they could lie to Allah. They may repent and do it again, but i assume he basis of the forgiveness would be that do they actually believe it was wrong, or do they commit homosexuality and consider it to be ok and acceptable in Islam. The point i have already made in the comment you quoted is that from what i read, i assume many gays commit their gays acts and do not consider it to be wrong, even though the Quran says different. Therefore a muslim cannot really consider himself muslim and gay, it must be one or the other.

    47. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 6:27 pm  

      No you’re right El Cid, I should’ve said the Mongols instead of Chengehis Khan. Although it’s debateable as to whether to include them at all. Many of the Mongols were shamanistic, but a large number converted to Islam - at that time, especially across central Asia, Islam had taken great steps forward in astronomy and medicine (11-13thC) and impressed the illiterate invaders.

      The Mongols recruited a number of Muslims to help, especially in the rule of China. Their immensely successful conquest helped spread Islam far and wide.

    48. Rohin — on 7th January, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      “A genocide day should emcompass all genocides and many of the acts throughout history that can be descrided by the definition you have provided, not just the one against jews. If MCB do not accept this then they should.”

      Cool, so we’re agreed on that, good to hear. Yeah I figured my ‘loophole in the loophole’ theory wasn’t a viable one. I guess those gays will just have to burn in hell. But thanks for the response.

    49. jamal — on 7th January, 2006 at 7:38 pm  

      Im glad we’re agreed on something.

    50. Arif — on 8th January, 2006 at 1:36 am  

      The Muslim Council of Britain is at least being a little bit more representative of Muslims on these issues, even if they are representing the more narrow-minded and superstitious opinions in the Muslim mainstream.

      Maybe it is also a bit comforting that they are so inarticulate and unconvincing in the way they put the arguments.

      But I can only gain such comfort if their arguments are dealt with respectfully. If they are ridiculed or screamed at, then a lot of mainstream Muslims will be alienated further. If they are ignored then such opinions will continue circulating.

      We need these arguments to come into the light so that there seems to be value in “free speech”, representative “democracy” and all the other abstractions which strike most people I know in the community as hypocrisies serving elite groups.

    51. Percy — on 8th January, 2006 at 12:17 pm  

      Reminds me of when I first saw those disgusting photos of blindfolded Iraqi men piled naked atop one another, I was taken back to my ol’ college days. But I quickly realized that it was not UC Berkeley, and this was no extra credit assignment. Under Bush’s orders, U.S. troops had apparently been abducting innocent Iraqi men from family barbecues and forcing them to perform bizarre sex acts - without condoms, mind you.
      With all we know today about sexually transmitted diseases, there’s no excuse for not using protection. That’s why it’s important for schools to not only educate our children in the proper way to conduct a naked gay pig-pile, but provide them with a safe, healthy environment to do so.

      We’ve seen how the Catholic church’s archaic insistence on celilbate clergy has led to widespread cases of child molesting priests. We’ve also seen how unrealistic “abstinence only” programs in public schools only cause children to deny their natural impulses, go insane, and refrain from having sex until marriage. Common sense tells us then that Bush’s opressive “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy concerning gays in uniform must therefore be the cause of this latest incident.

      I hope Bush wakes up and starts drafting some flamboyant, make-up and feather boa-wearing homosexuals into military leadership positions before more innocent Iraqis suffer.

    52. Col. Mustafa — on 8th January, 2006 at 3:20 pm  

      “A genocide day should emcompass all genocides and many of the acts throughout history that can be descrided by the definition you have provided, not just the one against jews. If MCB do not accept this then they should.”

      Maybe all the religions should encompass all their celebratory, or rememberance days together throughout history and have it all on one day.
      That way noone would ever be upset as were all part of the same religion.
      Or just all religions get together compromise abit here and there and unite.
      The ones who don’t care for religion are exempt and seen as no harm but just lovely people.

      Why shouldn’t the jews remember all the jews that died on the day of thier choosing?
      After the horrors of the Holocaust, Jews wanted a day to memorialize this tragedy. But what day? The Holocaust spanned years with suffering and death spread throughout these years of terror. No one day stood out as representative of this destruction.

      So various days were suggested.

      For two years, the date was debated. Finally, in 1950, compromises and bargaining began. The 27th of Nissan was chosen, which falls beyond Passover but within the time span of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Orthodox Jews still did not like this date because it was a day of mourning within the traditionally happy month of Nissan.

      On April 12, 1951, the Knesset (Israel’s parliament) proclaimed Yom Hashoah U’Mered HaGetaot (Holocaust and Ghetto Revolt Remembrance Day) to be the 27th of Nissan. The name later became known as Yom Hashoah Ve Hagevurah (Devastation and Heroism Day) and even later simplified to Yom Hashoah.

      Theres alot of history to everyones suffering, and all humans have thier own way of remembering or sorting things out.
      Thats thier day of remembering the Holocaust; im in no position to say that we encompass all in one so i can get it over and done with in one day.
      If thats the day of remembrance for the Holocaust then then thats the day i will pay my respects for the millions that died during that time period, whether im a muslim or an alien doesn’t matter.
      Same goes for the other forgotten genocide(Just by muslims it seems) which took place around WW2, the Turks massacaring anyone of Christian background in their country.
      Turks still don’t acknowledge it, neither do most of the muslim groups or people around the world either.

      “The MCB would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day providing that it clearly affirmed that the lives of all people, regardless of race or religion, are to be valued equally,” he said. “This is why the Muslim Council has consistently called for a genocide memorial day.”

      Im sorry but who the fuck are the MCB to call for a genocide memorial day?
      Humans died, all we as humans living now in this day and age have to do is just remember how and why they died for the better of any human. To learn from mistakes, remember the pain and anguish humans had to suffer.
      Why are they calling for a day for all genocides to be remembered in one , whats so hard in remembering the dead of a certain time period when so much information is available.

      Its like jews saying you know that day when all those muslims died, well its just too hard to pay our respects to them or feel any emotion towards them because it doesn’t include any jewish people dying.
      Maybe if we made a day where jews are also included then the feelings might start kicking into gear.

      Muslims are still so fucking petty it annoys the shit of me.

    53. Mirax — on 8th January, 2006 at 4:19 pm  

      I can’t say it better than you Col.

      Fucking petty indeed.

    54. jamal — on 8th January, 2006 at 6:35 pm  

      “Muslims are still so fucking petty it annoys the shit of me.”

      Col. Mustafa, really you should be applying that to yourself based on your above speech.

      With all your references to “the jews”, what you fail to realise (as many do) is that the WW2 holocaust was where jews AND ALSO Sinti and Roma populations of Europe, Poles, Russian POWs, ethnic Slavs, Homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the physically and mentally disabled, Communist, Socialists, Trade Unionists and political dissidents died.

      This is the point the MCB makes… the holocaust does not exclusively refer to jews, although it is promoted in this way.

    55. Col. Mustafa — on 8th January, 2006 at 6:57 pm  

      “This is the point the MCB makes… the holocaust does not exclusively refer to jews, although it is promoted in this way.”

      Don’t be naive, you know the MCB don’t mean this.
      And it still doesn’t mean you can’t not acknowledge the holocaust because of this as most of the above youv’e mentioned were jews.

      So there were no polish jews then, or homosexual jews either or mentally and disabled jews.
      Correct many were killed in the holocaust that don’t always get remembered in many circles but they do in written history, otherwise you wouldn’t know about them.
      I don’t think you can argue with the fact that mostly jews were slaughtered and killed when they weren’t in combat.

      Whereas as you know the other genocide isn’t even acknowledged.

      Im talking about innocent people being killed when most of them didn’t even know they were about to be killed, just knew they were being moved around.
      Not people that were fighting against the war as they had a cause and were more aware.
      Im not saying we shouldn’t remember them as well, what im saying is that there remembered when we remember the dead that fought for justice and freedom whether it be through combat or political procedure.

    56. Col. Mustafa — on 8th January, 2006 at 7:04 pm  

      “The MCB would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day providing that it clearly affirmed that the lives of all people, regardless of race or religion, are to be valued equally,” he said. “This is why the Muslim Council has consistently called for a genocide memorial day.”

      They would be honoured to participate in a national memorial day.
      So 6 million jews isnt enough for them to remember.
      There has to be other races and religions involved.

      2 years running they don’t participate, im sorry i dont know what kind of muslim you are but i would participate.
      I wouldn’t be petty enough to bring up issues like the ones the MCB bring up.
      Even if it didn’t remember everyone that died in the holocaust which i find highly unlikely as ive heard a few of there speeches and they do acknowledge everyone regardless of religion or race, i would still have to participate as it shows unity and and love for your fellow human being.
      Especially when its supposed to be representing muslims all over the UK.
      So stop making dumb excuses.

    57. Jai — on 8th January, 2006 at 7:18 pm  

      El Cid, good call on the matter of Genghis Khan earlier — you’re absolutely right, he wasn’t a Muslim. I guess I was running low on Caffeine levels at the time of my last post ;) However, I stand by the other examples I (and Rohin) mentioned.

      To be frank, the MCB’s stance smacks of jealousy, in a nutshell. I suspect that, due to some kind of victim-mentality, they envy the compassion that Jewish people get in the West with regards to what happened to them in WW2. Col Mustafa is right in stating that it’s quite petty for such people to wish to target the present Jewish-focused Holocaust day; the idea of a “universal” atrocity/genocide memorial day is a good suggestion, but there was no need to even mention the somewhat dubious suggestion of changing the present memorial. It doesn’t exactly make the MCB look very good.

      Col Mustafa’s other idea of a pan-religious festival is also a nice suggestion, albeit somewhat unrealistic (although I’m sure he already knows that). Conservative adherents of some “exclusive” organised faiths won’t buy it as they wouldn’t want to dilute their perceived “primacy” of their faith and simultaneously legitimising other infidel/heathen religions. But, again, it’s a great suggestion.

    58. El Cid — on 8th January, 2006 at 7:25 pm  

      Yeah, maybe a civilian equivalent of veterans’/remeberance day is long overdue. Why not.

    59. raz — on 8th January, 2006 at 7:29 pm  

      BTW Rohin, accusing me of being a one trick pony (anti-India) is bogus. I’ve been very vocal in condemning other issues on here, for instance Muslim anti-semitsm/hatred of Israel but you seem to ignore that for some reason.

    60. Rohin — on 8th January, 2006 at 8:53 pm  

      I didn’t accuse you of ONLY being a one-trick anti India pony, I said that you had regressed into that behaviour with a random post on India - but you followed it up with an explanation and that’s fine. I have also defended your right to say whatever you like and been as fair as I can with you and anti-Pakistan types, but you seem to ignore that for some reason. ;)

      As I’ve said before, having objections to the lack or abundance of inclusivity of Holocaust Day (I don’t actually know which they object to!) is one thing - but why the fuck BOYCOTT a day like that? It’s asinine to say the least. I mentioned one way of making their claim look more credible, by avoiding selective history. Another would be to say “we will observe Holocaust Day (note: Jewish does not appear in the title) but renew our call for a more inclusive genocide memorial day”.

      I really fail to see the things they bang on about, i.e. Jewish superiority or ‘marketing’ the day as a Jewish day.

    61. jamal — on 8th January, 2006 at 10:03 pm  

      They did say something along those lines previously.

      MCB’s statement on the Holocaust Memorial Day 2005

      In response to media queries about this year’s Holocaust Memorial Day, the Muslim Council of Britain has made the following statement to correct any false impression that may have been created by a misleading report in the Sunday Times (23rd January 2005) entitled ‘Muslims Boycott Holocaust Remembrance’:

      1. The Nazi Holocaust was a truly evil and abhorrent crime and we stand together with our fellow British Jews in their sense of pain and anguish. None of us must ever forget how the Holocaust began. We must remember it began with a hatred that dehumanised an entire people, that fostered state brutality, made second class citizens of honest, innocent people because of their religion and ethnic identity. Those who were vilified and seen as a threat could be subjected to group punishment; dispossession and impoverishment while the rest of the world stood idly by, washing its hands off despair and suffering that kept getting worse. The MCB believes, that we have therefore to do more than just remember and reflect on the past - we must be able to see when the same abuses occur in our own time.

      2. The MCB’s principled position from the outset since 2001 - when the Holocaust Memorial Day was first commemorated - has been for the memorial day to be inclusive of the sufferings of all people and urged that it be named the ‘Genocide Memorial Day’. The best living memorial for the victims of the Nazi Holocaust is trying to ensure that we make the cry ‘Never Again’ real for all people who suffer, everywhere. We honour the dead most sincerely by working to end suffering and bring peace with justice to those who live without hope today.

      3. Sadly, ‘Ethnic cleansing’ and mass killings are not a thing of the past; they are a continuing terror. Remembrance must, therefore, refocus our moral vision and rededicate our commitment to prevent current and future inhumanity, state brutality and crimes against humanity. In order to help ensure that such crimes against humanity do not recur and repeat themselves we believe that the Memorial Day can better be observed by making it inclusive to cover the ongoing mass killings and human rights abuses around the world, notably, in the occupied Palestinian Territories, Chechnya and Kashmir and also recent mass killings and genocide on Bosnia, Kosova and Rwanda. Genocide is the most abhorrent and outrageous crime and we are not going to prevent it by selectively remembering only some of its victims. (issued 24th January 2005 - http://www.mcb.org.uk)

    62. Mirax — on 9th January, 2006 at 4:25 am  

      Jamal, like the MCB you are being ingenuous. Don’tr think that everyone is easily fooled! The Holocaust Memorial days have themes each year (check it out!) and DO include other genocides in their observances. (FYI, i have been to 2 holocaust museums and I must say that victims of other holocausts are remembered.)
      Answer this questions:

      1. what do you make of the MCB’s quarrel over gays and the Armenian genocide being included in the Holocaust Memorial Day observations?

      2. How do you expect ‘genocides’ of the MCB’s devising - Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya et al (notice the ‘victims’ religions) -to be simply added willynilly as per the MCB demands?

      I suspect that the MCB’s motives are not so simple as mere jealousy- they have demanded such fundamental changes to a specific event (that tries a damn harder than the MCB to be inclusive) such as a name change because it is not in their political interests to anyone to be reminded that jews were indeed victims of an industrial-level carnage in the recent past.They would rather the Holocaust was forgotten altogether.

    63. Paolo — on 9th January, 2006 at 10:32 am  

      Will the MCB be campaigning for Muslim genocides, in which Muslims slaughtered by the million non Muslims and Muslimsin Bangladesh Indonesia Sudan Armenia etc etc etc to be commemorated?

      If anything, people hold back out of political correctness from mentioning the genocides perpetrated by Muslim states against non Muslims and Muslims.

      When the MCB fails to mention the Bangladesh genocide of Hindus and Muslims or the Armenian genocide of Christians I can only conclude that they are big fat liars and in genocide denial - dirty squalid bigots.

    64. Rohin — on 9th January, 2006 at 10:46 am  

      Paolo, see above.

      About Chengehis Khan - I did a bit more reading as I find the Mongols quite interesting. It was Timurlane who was the first Mongol Muslim leader, as his father was the first of his clan to convert. Which is why the Mongols are often thought of as Muslim - not just because of the reason I mentioned above (being closely associated with Muslims).

      Timurlane was a descendent of the big man and of course is well known in India for his successful invasion. He wasn’t a very nice chap.

    65. BevanKieran — on 9th January, 2006 at 11:04 am  

      In the latest protestation, the MCB have dropped the call to include the “genocides” in Palestine, Kashmir. Conveniently, in their proposed genocide memorial day, they do acknowledge the centrality of the Holocaust by suggesting cases only after WW2 should be included. (able to ignore Armenia but manage to ignore Pakistani slaughter of Bangladeshis as well)

      I agree with Mirax in that HMD, as it stands, is fairly inclusive. Curiously, attempts to attract the MCB’s consent by dissipating the Jewish presence can be as offensive as MCB’s original complaint.

      Khalid Mahmoud, M.P for Perry Bar

      “I’m proud to be a Muslim. But if people are boycotting this then I think it’s a mistake. People who were exterminated in the Holocaust were not just jews. There were Romany gypsies as well. Anybody who is interested in human rights should support this remembrance.”

    66. Rohin — on 9th January, 2006 at 11:21 am  

      Khalid Mahmoud - good to hear. Which one is he?

      I did a google search - look what I found!

      http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/1115/101/

      It’s so weird how people write to him asking him to act because “MUSLIM MEN” are being tortured. I don’t write to Paul Boateng and say “AFRICAN CHRISTIAN MEN are being tortured, please act!” (I’m assuming he’s Christian, you get the point)

      Good on him for stating his position.

      (I also rummaged around the MPAC website, good GOD the shit on there is astounding).

    67. BevanKieran — on 9th January, 2006 at 11:57 am  

      Rohin

      Err,,.I do agree with Khalid Mahmoud on quite a bit but the quote was related to the point above. (I assume it was accidental but is likely to occur if you try and appease, in any small way, the MCB)

      On MPACuk

      http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/12/10/report_from_the_mpacuk_meeting.php

      The thing that amazed me was the correlation of the hysteria of the website and Aghar Bukhari, the Chief.

      Definitely agree with the communal politics point. Not that Paul Boateng didn’t engage in a bit himself. At a rally way back in 1987 for Fijian Indians (back then I think the boundaries within ethnic minorities were less clear) (I was six at the time), he stated he would help those affected by the coup. Of course he did screw all. Actually, it wasn’t really communalism but opportunism which most politicians engage in.

    68. bananabrain — on 9th January, 2006 at 12:16 pm  

      just to get a little bit of perspective in here, i think the original idea of a british “holocaust remembrance day” was stupid. why the UK in particular should need an official day to commemorate the holocaust i really don’t know. i can only assume it was an idea of the government to do the one thing it can do to placate the jewish community that is uncontroversial considering how embattled we currently feel. or at least so one might think. the mcb have now really turned the whole thing into a circus with their antics and, as a result, to turn it into a general genocide day would be taken very personally by the jewish community, as if the holocaust somehow wasn’t important or unique enough to warrant it.

      nonetheless, to constantly harp on about “bosnia, chechnya and palestine” as if all three were the same or even equivalent to the shoah is about the most insulting thing that can be said. as it happens, jews took the situation in bosnia *very* seriously indeed and what was brought up most often was the collaboration of the croatians with the nazis during ww2 and how the lessons hadn’t been learned. and the ideology of the extreme serbs was discussed in the same terms. as far as chechnya is concerned, what was said was “well, that’s the russians for you - that’s why we got the hell out of there”.

      that’s all by the bye though. the thing that really raises hackles though (including mine) is the constant equivocation and the elevation of the situation in the palestinian territories to that of a genocide. however bad it is, a genocide it is NOT. there are no mass killings and no policy to organise or support them. there are a plethora of jewish and israeli organisations such as peace now, yesh gvul, rabbis for human rights and so on dedicated to bringing an just and secure end to the occupation and opposing government collaboration in these matters from a moral standpoint - if such things were going on, they would hardly go unnoticed - quite apart from the huge number of activists, journalists, busybodies and observers in the palestinian territories themselves. it is simply absurd for the mcb and mpac to talk in the way they do; all they do is make themselves look ridiculous, unrepresentative and extreme to the jewish community and everyone else.

      while we’re at it, what about the “muslim association of britain”? they seem to be good mates with the swp and the other professional malcontents; what do people here at PP think of them?

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    69. Col. Mustafa — on 9th January, 2006 at 12:54 pm  

      “MCB’s statement on the Holocaust Memorial Day 2005″

      Number 2 just isn’t needed.
      Its a seperate matter.

    70. Rob Dove — on 12th January, 2006 at 4:50 pm  

      something I read in an article recently…
      “homosexuality is forbidden if one is penetrated but not if one is the penetrator,”
      Is this true?

    71. Iain — on 16th January, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

      COl. M you are a star and a light to the darkness.

      All those racists here bleating on about ‘the jews’ hijacking the Holocaust might be interested in checking out the official site. That is, of the Internaitnal Commenaration set by the UN. Rather than the Yom HaShoah which is when the Jews commemorate the Holocaust or Shoah.

      http://www.hmd.org.uk

      which will disavow any but the most unreasoning and bigoted Islamists, like Sacranie, of these false and maliciously racist ‘opinions’.

      Why indeed should anyone care about muslims being victims anywhere in the world if that is the offical attitude?

      I wonder why this is the first link to the actual thing itself?

      Anyway why hate the Jews for the ‘Palestinian Holocaust’. The first ‘genocide’ in history where there are ten times the number of ‘Palestinians’ than before the Pan-Arabists tried to pick up where the other Nazis left off? Genocides should all be like that.

      The thing is no jew criticied the Holocaust but the ‘charity industry’ that has left many actual survivors of the Nazis death-camps without any aid or recompence even unto their old age. Hardly the same thing.

    72. Jai — on 16th January, 2006 at 2:54 pm  

      To rub further salt into the wound, it seems, Iran is now planning to hold a conference to assess the scientific validity of the present Western view of the Holocaust:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4615172.stm

    73. Jai — on 16th January, 2006 at 2:56 pm  

      Here’s a related, longer article from the CNN website:

      http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/15/iran.holocaust/

    74. Col. Mustafa — on 16th January, 2006 at 5:23 pm  

      “Last month, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in a speech, “They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred, and place this above God, religions and the prophets.”

      He added, “The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews.”

      He argued that the “myth” of the Holocaust served as Europe’s pretext for the existence of Israel.”

      I wonder how and who comes up with these things.
      Its actually quite mind boggling and how are you supposed to reason with something like that.

      Hes the President of Iran; i know a fair few iranians and i know there not like that, nor do they think that the holocaust is some big conspiracy either.
      But they don’t care about the politics of thier country, nor do they wish to live there.
      Most of them all left the moment they could, hence why i know them.
      But if the ones that don’t think everythings a conspiracy don’t even want to participate in the workings of the Iranian government then you get idiots like Ahmadinejad in control of the country.

      Im sure theres people in Iran that could put him straight about the issue, but they don’t.
      Maybe due to fear or just can’t be arsed i don’t know.
      A new generation is in the making, i just hope more sense comes from it.

    Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

    Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2010. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
    With the help of PHP and Wordpress.