athleticism gunnery inker philosophized,reformats spitefulness …

justforfun

Desi – Not very exciting really – the mountain man I met was on the road to Chamba in HP over 25 years ago. I had to get off the bus in the middle of nowhere, as I was retching up everywhere – so was on the side of the road looking pretty bad on my own. Along saunters this sadhu, pretty naked and very thin, except for his drinking bowl and stick. He sees me with my back pack etc and in completely unaccented English asks what’s wrong. To cut a long story short – he had been a doctor but now retired and had spent three years up beyond Chamba in a cave contemplating his life. Seems he had just gone down to the plains to see a relative and was on his way back. He fished out some pills from god knows where. They were still in they metal foil so I had one and after a few hours felt much better. He then stood by the road and flagged down the next car, which till then I had not been successful at. He told the driver to take me on to Chamba and that was it. Last I saw of him was him continuing to walk up the very very steep mountain road from where we had first met, as the valey slowly fell into shadow. I suppose the moral is – behind their appearance alot of these men have histories that are ‘normal’.

justforfun

I really, really hope that I am not being disrespectful, but I sincerely think that this time could be better used. And I don’t just mean Ramadan activities; I mean religious activities in general, like some people in the families I know who waste so many hours on this religious thing and that (this is more with Hindu folks; I’ve seen less religious intoxication in the Sikhs I know, but that may very well be just the people I know, and not Sikhs in general).

Wrong analogy. Fasting is denying the necessary fuel for our bodies to run; skinny vs beefed up runners in short and long runs is not about denying your body something necessary, and therefore, this point is irrelevant.

Hey man, it wasn’t me who ‘over-egged’ it, it was the various news media, see links in my comments.

“I’m not really sure what point your trying to make here, for as i have said Ramadan is a more holistic programme of spiritual growth”

As opposed to others who fast not during Ramadan?

“you really are pulling at straws on the other points.”

I don’t think so. I think my criticisms are valid, which are:

1. Fasting, in my view, is more harmful than not on the individual and social level

2. People may partake in fasting, but that doesn’t mean that they are necessarily spiritual or good people

3. But for those who fast, there is DEFINITELY a mental and physical difference between eating at 4 AM, skipping food until 7/8 PM at which point one eats (a lot) and someone who has not eaten for 15 days straight. Yes, there is, Saqib, and no analogies with marathons will do.

4. How do we measure ’spirituality’ anyway? It’s defined by some books, some people. But is there any objective way of defining spirituality? No. In which case, both you and I can cease to write comments re: spirituality, and my own points about spirituality are shot to hell

‘But Saqib, surely you agree with me that there is a difference of commitment between fasting for the day and fasting for more than 2 days straight?’

I’m not really sure what point your trying to make here, for as i have said Ramadan is a more holistic programme of spiritual growth…in the same way combat training is different to training to run the olympics 100 metres…both serve different purposes, it is not about ‘more’ or ‘less’ committment. A skinny marathon runner would be crap at sprinting, and a beefed up sprinter crap at long distance.

‘Grow spiritually… for ONE MONTH!! Is this really ’spiritual’ when you are ’spiritual’ for one month?,

It is when you are MORE intensly engrossed in spiritual growth for a shorter period (whilst still being spiritual throughout the rest of the year). It’s like physical training, you do your regular exercise, however if it is more intense, over a lesser period of time, there will be phyiscal growth.i.e. growth in strength. Similarly with regards to intellectual growth or learning anew skill, intense training is more effective.

‘LOL. I don’t think anyone is reading the Koran and saying prayers all night long as they exchange silk clothes and wolf down massive dishes of whatever foods people eat in various places around the world.’

Well Desi, you should drive around the mosques in the country, you will see droves of people leaving around 11-1130ish every evening, after being involved in seesions of communcal prayer…and then again be awake for 4 for collective and individual prayer, and also Qur’an reading.

I think, whilst your points on over-consumption are valid in many cases (though you have over-egged the pudding somewhat) you really are pulling at straws on the other points.

Eat food. If you have food, give some to those who don’t have it. And maybe petition the World Bank, IMF, WTO, and various gov’ts to do a radical global redistribution of food resources.

“Well, the whole concept of fasting is to give up voluntarily for a period of time lifes pleasures to grow spiritually, which will have an impact upon your practical life.”

Grow spiritually… for ONE MONTH!! Is this really ’spiritual’ when you are ’spiritual’ for one month?

“Anyway, abstaining from food, drink and sex is only part of the ramadan package, it is a time of engrossing oneself in long hours of prayer during the night and early hours of the morning, all while during the day you carry on normal activity. It is a comprehensive programme.”

LOL. I don’t think anyone is reading the Koran and saying prayers all night long as they exchange silk clothes and wolf down massive dishes of whatever foods people eat in various places around the world.

Also, you are not ‘carrying on normal activity during the day’ when you aren’t eating and drinking nothing.

‘Point is that there are some who are voluntarily fasting all the time, abstaining from sex all the time, have not touched alcohol for ages, etc; not just from sunrise to sunset and having a meal afterwards. That, my friend, is hardcore fasting!’

Well, the whole concept of fasting is to give up voluntarily for a period of time lifes pleasures to grow spiritually, which will have an impact upon your practical life. Abstaining from sex all the time would lead to extinction and is impractical.

Anyway, abstaining from food, drink and sex is only part of the ramadan package, it is a time of engrossing oneself in long hours of prayer during the night and early hours of the morning, all while during the day you carry on normal activity. It is a comprehensive programme.

1. http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=113711&d=2&m=9&y=2008&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom

2. http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1427823.php/Fewer_meals_and_less_charity_for_Egyptians_over_Ramadan__News_Feature_

3. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1219339725447&pagename=Zone-English-HealthScience%2FHSELayout

4. http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2008/08/22/feature-02

5. http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=Nzg5NzQ3MzM1

1st article from 2005:

“DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, Oct. 7 – The decorations are hanging, the cash registers are clanging, and the air of holiday cheer is everywhere. For a holy month, Ramadan is not what it used to be.

Once an ascetic month of fasting, prayer and reflection on God, Ramadan has gradually taken on the commercial trappings of Christmas and Hanukkah, from the hanging lights that festoon windows to the Ramadan greeting cards and Ramadan sales and advertising campaigns that have become the backbone of commerce for the month.

Marketers and businesses have caught on to the potential of 1.3 billion people at home fasting or breaking their daily fasts and getting back to normal life, a captive audience eager for entertainment and celebration, and more than willing to feast when the sun goes down.

Here in Dubai, the region’s supermall, commercialism has taken on a life of its own as almost everything has been dressed in the cloak of Ramadan, from consumer goods to cars. Malls are open till the early morning, and the nights rock away at dinner parties in desert tents.

“Ramadan is changing from a religious month to a cultural or social event,” said Muhammad el-Kuwaiz, a Saudi management consultant based in Dubai. “You’re using faith to commercialize something else. It doesn’t feel right.”

Sheik Ahmed Abdelaziz Haddad, the grand mufti of the Islamic Affairs Department in Dubai, puts it even more succinctly. “The problem isn’t that people are trading and doing business,” he said. “It’s that people have taken this month to be a month of shopping.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/international/asia/12ramadan.html

2nd is a blog by someone who apparently has spent some time in Egypt:

http://www.anthsoc.com/wp1/?p=442

Are you being serious? If so, tell more, please.

“But then there are alot of charlatans who are pretty unscrupulous and have great sex, especially with Western women and the occasional Western man ”

Sure, and in fact, in Kathmandu, recently, a sadhu at Pashupathi was accused of sexual abuse, the bastard (no need to wait here to follow the maxim “Innocent until proven guilty’ because the guy had been caught doing that before, and the question is, why didn’t the po po’s lock him up for a long time the first time around?) But the Himalayan hermits? They hardly even come across other fellow humans. They have more contact with hallucinations than they do with real people…

I see what you mean. I thought you were suggesting that the usual fare of cheese and pineapple on sticks was being pushed aside when an iftar pack was within easy reach. Presumably that would mean these were non-fasting councillors. For the sake of clarity (often needed in these discussions)’Non-fasting’ means both secular and non-observant.

Now I think we can share the jammy dodgers and agree that there may well be a mix of both non-fasting councillors reaching for the delectable iftar packs as well as fasting ones going for double helpings. How’s that for a bit of triangulation a la Nulabour?

Rumbold,

‘While I share your distate for people stealing other peple’s food (though it doesn’t suprise me), do you have any evidence that something more sinister is going on?’

That’s just it. Sunny attempted to get confirmation of the story by contacting Tower Hamlet Council, got what I believe is the substance of it and failed in the analysis. It needed just one more question to the council and he would have done what no one else seems to be bothered to do – get to the truth:

“Non-Muslim councillors have simply been asked to ensure that there is Iftar food available for Muslim councillors, because in previous years, Muslim councillors wanting to break their fast followings prayers had found that the Iftar packs had been eaten.”

What is sinister is how this has been turned into yet another media crusade.

I met a hardcore ‘mountain man’ once when I was very ill. He quickly switched back to normal and helped out and then when I was Ok he switch back. No loss of humanity there , just total focus on the task at hand.

As you say if this focus could be used elsewhere then what could be achieved. But then there are alot of charlatans who are pretty unscrupulous and have great sex, especially with Western women and the occasional Western man

justforfun

Point is that in every festivity, there are some who can kick off a real grand celebration, while others can’t. Nothing particular about rich Muslims doing that during Ramadan. And anyway, it is nice that rich Muslims supposedly prohibit water touching their lips, skip food from dawn to dusk (don’t forget pre-sunrise food— this ain’t fasting, folks!), and abstain from getting their groove on. Tell rich Americans here to do that, and they will scoff, “Yeah, right.” If anything, mo’ $$ means to practice all this stuff at an exaggerated level (except for the stuffy Puritans; other than that, most with more than 6 figures in his/her bank account is on a ride to hedonism)/