Imposing Ramadan on non-Muslims
There was a story in the Daily Mail last week titled, ‘Muslim council chiefs ban ALL members from ‘tea and sandwiches’ in meetings which take place during Ramadan‘
I thought – nah, this can’t be right. They can’t be that stupid. So I made some enquiries, and was forwarded the original correspondence sent around.
So, here is the original email that sparked off the controversy:
Dear Councillor,
I write to inform you of the arrangements that have been agreed with the Leader and Deputy Leader of the Council in respect of the Council’s formal committees and other meetings where Member attendance is required during Ramadan.Due to forward planning for Ramadan in developing the 2008 calendar of dates of principal meetings of the Authority, there are relatively few formal committee meetings. However where meetings are scheduled a Corporate approach is to be adopted in order to ensure consistency as follows:
Iftar refreshments (a balance of the chicken, lamb and vegetarian-based Iftar packs, together with fruit, water and orange juice) will be provided in cases where it is not reasonable to expect Members observing Ramadan, and who are required to attend a formal committee or other meeting, to travel home in time for sundown in order to break fast and undertake prayers. Where other refreshments would normally be provided at these meetings, the level of these will be reduced accordingly. Water will be provided in the meeting room as normal.
It is requested that Members do not partake of any refreshments until after the Iftar refreshments are served.
The Leadership Meeting Room, First Floor, Mulberry Place (adjacent to the Members Support Office) will provide a consistent location for the serving of the Iftar refreshments.
Democratic Services Officers have been advised that:
Additional meetings of committees and other bodies involving Members should be avoided during the period of Ramadan (01/ 02 September to 01/02 October) wherever possible, and the potential to reschedule those meetings that are currently arranged for the first or last few days of this period is being examined.
Evening meetings should start as early as reasonably possible during the period of Ramadan and there may be a need for start times to be brought forward. Where Iftar falls during a meeting an adjournment of 45 minutes should be factored in where appropriate to allow for a comfortable period to break fast and undertake prayers. Should you have any queries in relation to the above please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
That sparked off the outrage. Tower Hamlets Council then released two statements:
There is absolutely no suggestion that during Ramadan non-Muslim councillors have been asked to refrain from eating or drinking when Muslims are observing the fast. As normal, water will be provided at council meetings taking place during Ramadan. Tea, coffee, Iftar packs (food eaten during Ramadan) and non Iftar snacks will be available in a separate room for all councillors.
“All that’s being asked for is courtesy to be shown to the sensitivities around some councillors eating during council meetings whilst others in the room are fasting.
“Non-Muslim councillors have simply been asked to ensure that there is Iftar food available for Muslim councillors, because in previous years, Muslim councillors wanting to break their fast followings prayers had found that the Iftar packs had been eaten.”
I’m not sure this is strictly true, going by the original email. Then another statement was sent out:
Council meetings scheduled during Ramadan will take place and will not be reduced in length. As has happened in recent years and has been accepted by all councillors, meeting start times
have been brought forward and where Iftar occurs during a council meeting an adjournment of 45 minutes will take place for prayers and the breaking of the fast. Any 45 minute adjournments will be made up by having the time added onto the meetings after the Iftar break.Where meetings have been scheduled over Eid, these will be rescheduled. No council meetings have been cancelled.
Hmm… now I have no problems with a bit of adjustment, especially in areas where a bg number of councillors would be affected. The Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah, is coming up soon. I can’t imagine there being much going on in areas with lots of Jewish councillors, and quite rightly.
At the same time, who really cares what Tower Hamlets council is doing internally, as long as they deliver?
Saying all that, it does look like an attempt by TH councillors to change everything around during Ramadan, and then sending out two contradictory statements after once the press caught on.
I don’t get it. Don’t these people realise the impact of these stories? Can they not predict them? Why give the Daily Mail fodder?
Update: thabet over at TalkIslam also agrees.
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Filed in: British Identity, Religion
I don’t get it. Don’t these people realise the impact of these stories? Can they not predict them? Why give the Daily Mail fodder?
well, if they hang out only with their own kind….
Probably the same types of goons who tried to ban the film version of Monica Ali’s book. Numpties…
I thought councillors were meant to speak and listen to arguments about topics in council meetings, which would be more difficult if people are eating anyway. On the other hand, how far will fasting affect the judgment of councillors? I understand there’s an increase in accidents in muslim countries in Ramadan which suggests that it affects peoplle’s behaviour.
You should let them know over at Islamophobia Watch Sunny, which was where I first spotted the story – they’ve labelled it another example of “anti-Muslim racism” by printing the denial, when it appears the story was spot on.
Oh the woes of Ramadan. Stories like this abound. If you dig deeper you will hear about meetings, shows, socials etc in Tower Hamlets being *cancelled* because of Ramadan.
I reckon this is ppl going just a tad too far.
Yes it is nice to think of other ppl during a time when they are fasting. To have a half hour break to pray, is in my opinion, reasonable. To provide something to break their fast with also is reasonable…depending on cost. Asking other non muslims not to eat until after iftar is absolutely ridiculous. There is also the assumption that all the muslims fast. It’s ridiculous to also assume that muslims who are observing ramadan cannot be surrounded by ppl eating and drinking. Muslims who work do not suddenly stop working during this month..it’s work as normal with some adjustments…employers often allow workers to leave a half hour earlier to get home..but this time is always taken out of the lunch break. I don’t know any muslims who fast and work to ask for any other ’special’ treatment. i don’t think the point of fasting is to make a big deal of it…
As I understand it the majority of councillors in TH (especially Labour, RESPECT and Lib Dem) are from my Brit Sylheti Bangladeshi ethnic group and are therefore likely to be keeping fast.
I see no reason why they cannot be accommodated. It has been requested that councillors refrain from partaking of food until Iftar. As Roger stated, council meetings are unlikely to leave much time for eating. In our office my colleagues refrain from eating in front of me during Ramadan. A courtesy I appreciate. I am more than willing to reciprocate eg. when my Sikh female colleague is keeping fast and not eating dairy products.
ps. re: comments at =1 razib and =5 sid. It ought to be born in mind that both of these guys are first gen immigrant Dhakaiya Bangladeshis ie. arch enemies of the Sylheti Bangladeshis. Dhakaiya always try to portray themselves as ’secular, liberal, wordly’ etc as compared to ‘poor benighted peasant Sylhetis’. This is one reason the councillors are overwhelmingly Sylheti, we don’t vote for Dhakaiya candidates in the UK.
Where they got it wrong, in my opinion, is to request non Muslims not to eat. I have no issues and would rather welcome the accommodation if they can, however, they’re doing this at the expense of others – something I would protest at had I been present in the meeting and not fasting.
Ashik, out of courtesy most people would probably wait the typical 30 minutes or whatever it is so everyone could eat together but that should be, undeniably, left to the individual to decide.
Im hungy, already.
No one is suggesting that people shouldn’t fast ashik, but we can always rely on you to play the Islamophobia and anti-Sylhety “race” ticket whenever Tower Hamlets councillors are criticised. As if to suggest that politicians and public officials are beyond criticism if they belong to one particular demographic. We can rely on you to use the cover of “political office” to claim exclusive religious rights *and* make the preposterous claim that all this falls under mainstream Labour politics. The Islamists in Bangladesh use the same ploys.
Sunny says, referring to a statement by Tower Hamlets council: “I’m not sure this is strictly true, going by the original email.”
But a Tower Hamlets spokesperson said: “A memo was sent and we acknowledge it may have been worded slightly better.”
The memo states: “It is requested that Members do not partake of any refreshments until after the Iftar refreshments are served.”
This is the sentence that’s been seized on by anti-Muslim bigots to assert that non-Muslims were being forced to fast during Ramadan. I mean, as if!
The clarifying statement quoted by Sunny reads:
“There is absolutely no suggestion that during Ramadan non-Muslim councillors have been asked to refrain from eating or drinking when Muslims are observing the fast…. All that’s being asked for is courtesy to be shown to the sensitivities around some councillors eating during council meetings whilst others in the room are fasting.”
The statement emphasises that “Tea, coffee, Iftar packs (food eaten during Ramadan) and non Iftar snacks will be available in a separate room for all councillors.”
I don’t see that as being contradictory to the original email, still less that it is a “a climb-down statement”, as the East London Advertiser has asserted. It is correcting a wilful misinterpretation of a loose formulation in the memo.
Does anyone really imagine that non-Muslim councillors were initially asked to observe a fast during Ramadan, and that the council subsequently reversed that decision after criticism?
We should be hammering the right-wing press for their misrepresentation of the issue, in my opinion, not letting them off the hook by suggesting that Tower Hamlets council brought it all on themselves.
I disagree with the comment that says giving them half an hour to pray is OK. Is it bollocks! If there’s a scheduled break at that point, then that’s OK, and those who wish to pray can go off and do it while the rest have a chat over a cup of tea and a sausage roll. In no way should religious delusions get in the way of secular political activity. Leave your religion at home. If you can’t, then don’t be a councillor.
Andy, religion isn’t something you switch off just because you leave your own home. Having a half hour break for a couple of meetings in one month out of 12 isn’t exactly infringing on anyone. If this was everyday then yes it would be a problem, but it isn’t..
Sofia
Many Muslims pray everyday. Five times in fact.
Yes, well those of us know Andy Armitage will be aware of his double standards on democratic rights.
He argues against any institutional sensitivity towards Islamic religious practices on a council with a large number of Muslim representatives.
But he’s quite happy to publish threats of violence against Muslims on the Pink Triangle blog – all in the interests of freedom of speech, you understand.
Wow.
What a great way to start the beginining of Ramadam.
Really lovely.
How about posting a thread starting with – Happy Ramadan, let’s try and appreciate the principles of Ramadan which is humility, sacrifice and solidairty.
That would be a fine day.
Given how obsessed we are on this site on Islamic related issues, I would’ve thought it’s the least we could manage.
Ramadan Mubarak!
“This is one reason the councillors are overwhelmingly Sylheti, we don’t vote for Dhakaiya candidates in the UK.”
Words fail me.
Well said Halima @15
However, religion and state should be separate — We are a secular country after all.
“Ramadan Mubarak!”
And to you , Sid! And to everyone reading…
humility, sacrifice and solidairty
What kind of rubbish have Islamic historical revisionists been spewing?
There is nothing humble about preparing gluttonous feasts twice a day, gorging on delicacies and putting on weight.
There is nothing sacrificial about skipping lunch. You are not the only ones.
Solidarity? This one really made me laugh. With who? Muslims? Shias and Sunnis will continue to blow each other up during this month. The Saddam Hussein Mosque in Brum will have a spat with the Colnel Gadaffi Mosque about what time/day/second Eid is etc etc.
Deluded, that’s what you are.
Ramadan is simply a continuation of the Arab pagan tradition of fasting according to the lunar calendar. Nothing more.
“However, religion and state should be separate — We are a secular country after all.”
I think there are ways to balance lots of things at work these days…
the smokers that go off for 10 min breaks without anyone noticing, but we allowing for it..
and fathers and the mothers that need to go home to manage child care might start early and leave early
The religious person who might want to come in early, forgoe lunch when she fasts and leave early.
And the many, many, people that work long hours anyway, without qualifying for overtime. They could be all of the above I described.
None of this dismatles the secular character of the state but recognises the state might sometimes make reasonable adjustments to fit with people’s choices. We can’t always accomodate everything and a proper debate is worth having ..
but our first sentiment should be to try and understand.
Halima
Well said again and I agree with you completely on this.
#20 Bin Qasim is none other than our racist, homophobic and sectarian troll – Muzumdar – exercising some middling caste angst. Ignore the c*nt.
Hello Sid!
(no #20 isn’t me either)
Bin Qasim…yes many muslims pray five times a day…the two prayers that normally fall within a working day (say 9 – 5) there will only be 2 – (max 3 in the winter) prayers carried out during the day…each of which will probably take about 5 minutes. About the same time as a cigarette break…or a chit chat in the kitchen when making a cup of tea..or when personal phone calls are made…etc etc etc
Halima, Ramadan mubarak to you too and to everyone else.
This whole thread is going the same way as countless others..forget the flippin daily mail.
I’ve only had positive experiences at work. People actually being considerate, not me asking for special treatment, just a bit of understanding.
Ramadhan Mubarak folks!!
‘We should be hammering the right-wing press for their misrepresentation of the issue, in my opinion, not letting them off the hook by suggesting that Tower Hamlets council brought it all on themselves.’
Of course we should.
Note also that previously that where Iftar packs had been provided some had already been scoffed by time it came to breaking fast. Presumably leaving others to starve.
Clearly there are some greedy councillors who could not exhibit civility let alone show respect.
On the whole, I could see how this has come about.
Here are councillors who presumably give their time to contribute to the local democratic process, even during Ramadan – find that where provision has been made to allow them to continue doing the work the electorate asks of them – they are being robbed of their meagre snack before they can get to them.
Now, given most of the time given by these councillors is relatively cost-free to the public they should leave their meetings in time to go eat with their families.
And if that generates yet more hysteria from the Daily Express and Daily Mail so be it. Let the electorate decide at forthcoming elections.
Personally I think we should out the greedy buggers who are pinching other people’s snacks and show them up to the electorate and see if they get back in.
Personally I think we should out the greedy buggers who are pinching other people’s snacks and show them up to the electorate and see if they get back in.
That’s one step away from outing Muslims who don’t fast.
I heard the other day that laws exist in Pakistan that ban restaurants from serving food to Muslims on Ramadan? Is this true? If so, how is it policed?
‘That’s one step away from outing Muslims who don’t fast.’
It is?
I thought it was about people pinching other people’s food. But the Tower Hamlet’s council had tried to be diplomatic in how it tried to tell its councillors that they shouldn’t be doing this.
Only they hadn’t accounted for the Daily Express/Mail.
Refresh – You’ve hit the nail on the head – this is about trying to stop people eating the best nosh first.
Perhaps the secular menu needs a rethink ! – these “Iftar refreshments (a balance of the chicken, lamb and vegetarian-based Iftar packs, together with fruit, water and orange juice)” sound tasty. I would go for them first well before the pinapple and cheese on a stick and I could hoover up a tablespread with at least 29minutes of my break to spare.
However – perhaps we are also talking about ‘double portions’ – who is going back for seconds beofre the housing committe have come out of their meeting?
Personnally I would employ some dabbawallas – is there an immigration quota on these hardworking fellows. This would solve the problem . ( for those who don’t know of dabbawallas -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabbawala ) – then every councillor could have a ‘dabbawalla allowance’ to get his/her good lady/husband back at their home to prepare the correct nosh and get it delivered to the correct meeting and all for 400 rupees a month – save Tower Hamlets a fortune.
Justforfun
Justforfun,
‘Perhaps the secular menu needs a rethink !’
I like the way you think. Removes the problem in one go.
Giving everyone an Iftar pack will not work – that too will be misrepresented as ‘Imposing Ramadan’.
The secular menu should be most grand, five courses at least. And to demonstrate the council’s openness it should be observable from the public gallery.
TH is awash with irregularities. The council workers are too connected to the businesses and there is no scrutiny as to conflicts of interest.
Boyo =17:
‘Words fail me’.
They need not. Dhakaiya Bangladeshis tend to hold discriminatory and condescending attitudes toward Sylheti Bangladeshis. Dhakaiya have imperialistic attitudes toward language and culture. They bring this baggage with them to the UK. Ergo, Dhakaiyas cannot therefore be expected to represent Sylhetis politically. In the UK Sylhetis either vote for Non-Bengalis eg. Oona King and George Galloway or fellow Sylhetis.
I have to agree with the majority of comments here: I wish every story in the rightwing press even vaguely involving Muslims would not be seen through the prism of ‘clash of civilisations’.
They bring this baggage with them to the UK.
I watched the film Hancock the other day ..there needs to be some serious PR input here.
As for the Bangladeshis bringing ‘this baggage’ here with them to the UK (how is this relevant to this post anyway?) – it is untrue. Having spent a considerable amount of time of my life in Bangladesh I can confidently say there is no such bad blood between those from sylhet and those who are not (refered to dhakaiyas in the uk). It is exclusively a UK issue.
All politicians and bureaucrats should be forced to take Ramadan and other religious festivals off, so that they have less opportunity to tell us what to do.
No Rumbold, we should take on the dishonest media head on. And in turn we should not be so sheep-like that we are so easily led by the nose.
Sunny, I think you should go back to Tower Hamlets Council and find out who was eating all the pies. Get them to name names. It would also be interesting to find out whether its these same people who are feeding the press. In particular I am interested to hear more about the woman from the LibDems who seemed to be on the radio talking this issue up.
And if they can’t name names, ask them why they haven’t placed CCTV cameras in their ante-room.
Can somebody deprogramme Rumbold?
David,
I’m trying, but once someone hits eleven on the dial, duck!
I actually see Rumbold as a misguided friend. He has fallen for the sexy concept of allowing a political party to think for him.
This is, ultimately, sad.
Rumbold, can and does support causes that the left should support. Such as the rights of women being equal to the rights of man. Rumbold has a clear commitment to clear up honour killings, and I for one agree with him 100% on that.
It is in areas that he hasn’t a clue, such as climate science, that he retreats into toeing the party line. And this is what I find objectionable about every Libertarian. Their philosophy is a simple denial. It is not good enough.
So, I have challenged Rumbold on that, and he half conceeds. But he doesn’t admit error. Which is much as you’d expect from folk that believe a lie. The lie being superior to the facts. The lie being that politics trumps truth.
Which it clearly doesn’t. Climate change is real.
anyway Ramadan is meant to be all about ‘testing’ the spirit – not much testing to do if people kowtow to you and make special excuses for you. when i was growing up as a muslim in the middle east, we had to do PE in the heat regardless of whether we were fasting or not! No excuses for being a Muslim! And besides everybody knows that if you are fasting and someone is eating next to you, and you resist the temptation, you’re a stronger person and your fast counts for more!
Wussy councillors more like, not very good Stoics.
“I wish every story in the rightwing press even vaguely involving Muslims would not be seen through the prism of ‘clash of civilisations’.”
That would exclude your own “clash” I presume?
Tanvir, the rivalry and hatred between Sylheti and Dhakaiya are relevant to this topic as the thread was aimed at elected TH councillors who are majority ethnic Sylheti. Religion and the obligation to fast are more likely to be observed by those councillors than those making comments here. If they were Dhakaiya no comments would be made. Sly comments by the two Dhakaiya Sid and Razib are to be seen in that context. Especially as Sid is a member of a controversial immigrant Dhakaiya Bengali political org called ‘Drishtipat’ which excludes Sylhetis. Therin lies the evidence of said baggage.
As for Sylhetis in Bangladesh, given that they form about 10% of the population yet 90% of those emigrating to Britain and large numbers to USA and Canada, I’m sure they must be perfectly content with the casual racism, discrimination and economic neglect which the govt of your country imposes on them!
Boyo, you bet mate. Some clashes are here to stay. No more will PP be a pro-Dhakaiya forum.
Ashik
“ps. re: comments at =1 razib and =5 sid. It ought to be born in mind that both of these guys are first gen immigrant Dhakaiya Bangladeshis ie. arch enemies of the Sylheti Bangladeshis. Dhakaiya always try to portray themselves as ’secular, liberal, wordly’ etc as compared to ‘poor benighted peasant Sylhetis’. This is one reason the councillors are overwhelmingly Sylheti, we don’t vote for Dhakaiya candidates in the UK”
A very revealing statement about the absolute religious and cultural intolerance at the root of this issue. The bigotry inherent in every religion cannot be allowed to intrude on the political process, ever. Why are non-muslims being discriminated against by being made to feel like racists for not observing ramadan? Utter nonsense. Keep god out of politics.
Bill,
The Sylheti-Dhakaiya thing is more cultural and perhaps political than religious. Both Sylheti and Dhakaiya are mostly Muslim. Although there are regional variations in practice eg. Sylheti Islam is more about traditional practice (Ibadaat) and less about political ideologies.
As for Sylhetis not voting for Dhakaiya candidates in the UK….would you expect South Asians and Blacks to vote for the BNP?
Tanvir is absolutely correct. This ridiculous “Dhakaiya vs Sylhety” regionalism is a feature of young well-educated cretins like Ashik, who have been born and raised in this country in a cultural bubble, infested with petty sectarianism compounded by regressive cultural and religious ideas which have forced them to live in a cultural dead-end.
They know nothing about how religion and culture have progressed past their parent’s experiences “back-home” from a generation or two ago and which were largely backward rural lifestyles. Furthermore they are incapable of assimiliating and integrating into their new homeland because of these ossified value-systems which means they live and breathe in a Sylhety-only milieu with little real contact with people outside of this narrow orbit.
Ashik and his demography then become solictirs, bank managers and prominent businessmen in this community. But their narrow attitudes are nurtured and developed as part of their cultural baggage and manifest as personal and community-wide grievances, as Ashik has demonstrated time and time again.
Wey hey!
Especially as Sid is a member of a controversial immigrant Dhakaiya Bengali political org called ‘Drishtipat’ which excludes Sylhetis. Therin lies the evidence of said baggage.
Excludes Sylhetis? That would be odd since the founder is himself a Sylheti.
‘Why are non-muslims being discriminated against by being made to feel like racists for not observing ramadan?’
I think you are over-egging this one.
sorry guys..but i’m still laughing at ‘arch enemies’
Drishtipat is a manifestation of Asif Saleh’s own politics and cultural background. That organization is politically Pro-Awami League (BNP Minister Moudud Ahmed criticized them) and wishes to celebrate and resurrect in the UK a politicized ‘purist’ version of Bangla language and culture actually only spoken and followed by a minority in Bangladesh who consider themselves ‘elites’. In the UK community Bangla is essentially a dead language and spoken Sylheti is prevailent. A fact recognized by various UK authorities who provide Sylheti interpreters for services. Bangla is usually spoken by newly arrived older Dhakaiya immigrants. I therefore doubt that Mr. Saleh is culturally Sylheti and can that he can lead a meaningful organisation in the UK.
Few educated and well assimilated Brit Sylheti (or Dhakaiya to be fair) bought up in the UK wish to be associated with regressive Bangladesh identity politics circa 1971. We live in the UK for pete’s sake! We are not likely to return to live in Bangladesh and neither are you! We are more likely to speak flawless English and join Labour, RESPECT or Lib Dems. Brit Sylheti org’s like Brit Bangla and We are Sylheti do not dabble in Bangladeshi politics or resurrect the ossified and purist Bangla culture you celebrate. Rather, Sylheti org’s concentrate on charity work and celebrating successes in our community in the UK. We speak Sylheti and this is the culture we should celebrate.
Btw Sofia, arch enemies may sound ott but is quite true. Despite being of the same race and religion Sylheti & Dhakaiya do not tend to inter-marry. A Non-Sylheti Dhakaiya partner would usually expect the Sylheti partner to learn their lingo but not reciprocate. Because they think only uneducated people speak Sylheti. It really takes the biscuit when harbingers of such a memtality come on PP to portray themselves as secular and liberal.
This is really simple. If you CHOOSE to fast, fine, go ahead, no problem. But please, do not be offended if I exercise my right to CHOOSE to eat. Your religious event has no impact on me. I have no need to respect your CHOICE in fasting, and should be allowed to continue eating whenever and wherever I want. If you’re offended by someone eating next to you, then you have a serious problem.
To sonia #42, your own fast would mean a lot more if you decided to do it off your own back, instead of following a tradition that states you need to do this on the 9th month along with every other Muslim. If your religion said you needed to hop on one leg in February, you’d be doing that every February. If you were able to choose to do it or not, you wouldn’t do it. You fast because you are told to do so by your ‘holy’ book(s). There is no reason to fast in September. Your fast means nothing since you’re basically just skipping a couple of meals during the day only to fill yourself up with food at night. You haven’t missed anything, and most people put on weight through it anyway because they binge once/twice a day instead of having smaller meals spread out. Also, aren’t there more accidents in Muslim countries during Ramadan? I find this religious event completely pointless, and no one has yet given a good reason for it, other than “it’s part of my religion”. So is killing homosexuals; how many have you killed today?
I therefore doubt that Mr. Saleh is culturally Sylheti and can that he can lead a meaningful organisation in the UK.
Interesting, so now you’re dictating who can and cannnot be Sylheti based on whether they share your reactionary attitudes. For you, a Sylheti must be born in he UK and eschew progressive attitudes towards race, religion, human rights, democracy, liberalism and secularism. I’m appalled.
Drishtipat is a pro human rights and pro-democracy organisation and is not politically affiliated. And if you know anything about the polity of Bangladesh, groups like ours are targetted and maligned because of the status quo. We seem to get under the noses of the Islamist supremacists and far right military juntas and other anti-democratic strong-arms groups. Groups, which I might add, you seem very keen to support and prop up. It is a tragedy that young people like yourself are caught up in a reactionary discourse which is merely a throwback to your forebears attitudes that are long past their sell-by date. One would have thought that people like you who have grown up and benefitted from secular society and education would be supporting our ideals and goals. Instead you’re caught up in some weird Sylheti-Dhaka bollocks. For shame!
Given the nonsense you’ve spouted so far about Drishtipat and its members (all of which are easily refuted) and the silly regionalism that has paralysed your objectivity, I think it might be best you save yourself from any further embarrassment and loss of cred.
Sylheti is more than a different accent of Bengali. It can be considered a different language, with it’s own alphabet. It also has some differing vocabulary (more Hindi, Persian and Arabic loan words) to Bengali. Therefore the Liverpudlian example is not correct. The Bangladeshi govt discourages use of Sylheti in the media and government. Bangladeshi govt propaganda tries to make out only illiterate people speak Sylheti. A policy that ‘human rights org’ Drishtipat follows in the UK.
Who/what is an upper class Sylheti Sid? Someone like Asif Saleh who was born & bought up in Dhaka and can speak fluent Dhakaiya?!
In the UK Sylheti Judges, Doctors, Barristers and Solicitors, tend to speak Sylheti not Bengali. It helps them professionally because Sylheti clients trust and open up to them. Even those Sylheti born and bought up in Bangladesh prefer Sylheti as a first language. In Bangladesh when the former Finance Minister Saifur Rahman was reading the budget he did so in Sylheti.
In the minds of older Dhakaiya first gen immigrants class is bound up in language. For those of us Brit Sylhetis of the first and second gen it includes cultural integration, education, career etc. Nobody cares in the UK if you were the Prince of Dhaka. lol
I suggest you reaquaint yourself with reality and stop re-creating deshi politics in the UK. Join Labour instead.
amen to that sid
-the overwhelmingly Sylheti demography of the UK Bangladeshi community
There are UK-based Sylheti Bangladeshis in Drishtipat, who obviously don’t suffer from the same paranoic hangups you do.
-distrust and dislike for organizations celebrating a language few in the UK Bangladeshi community speak
What, you mean English?
That’s the overriding language used in Drishtipat.
-distrust for activities importing to the UK the petty, violent and feudal AL/BNP party politics of Bangladesh
Couldn’t agree with you more. But you’re the one who supports the military junta and the Islamists in Bangladesh. They’re blocking political reforms and are pretty violent and feudal themselves. What’s your excuse?
Overall please appreciate you now reside in the UK and not Bangladesh. Like me and my friends, you and members of DP are unlikely to return. So look more toward your new home and adopted country and not backward.
Why don’t you suggest that to the elders of your community and especially the Tower Hamlets councillors who seem to think they’re still in some Moulvi Bazar backwater.
This thread has got really nasty (largely thanks to ‘Bin Qasim’ and ashiq). Ashiq, I’m a so-called Dhakaiya and know and get on with plenty of Sylhetis here. They’re pretty cool. You give Sylhetis a bad name. Grow up.
Golam Morthosae,
Your comment at =2 rather shows that you do not get on well with Sylheti Bengalis. The Brick Lane protests illustrated best the fissures in the Brit Bangladeshi between Sylheti and Non sylheti communities.
Most Dhakaiyas and their groups supported Monica Ali in the name of ‘freedom of speech’ because her book attacked Sylhetis on Brick Lane. While the protesters and their supporters who opposed it tended to be Sylheti. In reality few Bengalis/South Asians support ‘freedom of speech’ when their own ethnic/religious group is the target.
You see Golam, we Sylhetis are not ‘cool’ when ppl take the piss and discriminate against us and then run to the wider UK community pretending to be accepting and liberal.
Amen, Golam. I’ve deleted comments by ashik and BQ/Muzumdar is banned.
wha?
ashik’s comments were not in the slightest bit offensive and needn’t have been deleted.
Ashiq
Drishipat do what they do.. They are aimed at the overseas Bangladesh disapora. They address issues that interest their members.
If individual members on this site or elswhere express slighty negative attitudes towards British Bangladeshis, and they occassionally do – take issue with them one by one. As we do with any issues. South Asia is full of snobbery on just about everything.
And yes, the most victriolic criticism against working class British Bangladeshis has come from middle class Bangladeshis, say, on Monica Ali’s book, and the class snobbery sometimes boils down to Sylhet-Dhaka split – but ultimately it’s about class isn’t it? Not really about Sylhet’s distinct language and culture – if trully we are British an all? Also, the good folks of Dhaka come from all corners of Bangladesh – so kinda like the capital city of any country – will have certain ‘cosmopolitan’ snobberies, and sometimes it’s targetted against the new money coming in from remittance from London/Sylhetis, which is unsettling all sorts of hierarchies in Bangladesh.
Well to do, British Bangladeshis, tend to feel uncomfortable when they are associated with their poorer cultural cousins – and express alot of passion against them, precisely I reckon to show their distance. ‘We’re not like that..’ at a symbolic level. This isn’t confined to Sylhetis and folks from Dhaka – but between rich/poor folks in Dhaka and Sylhet respetively. It’s been the story of the English working class – recently upwardly mobile children of working class families have felt this sentiment somewhere: ‘If I can make it despite my hardship, other people can..’ when anyone talks about the harship of low-income groups.
I am sure these strange snobberies won’t last – with new money, globalisation and technology being the way of the future – snobberies don’t stick . Look at the City of London – once dominated by old money , but now open to anyone that can make a millin on the stock market.
Sometimes you have to take a step back. I have no problem being told I am from the backwaters… It’s kinda nice and rustic.
Well i think Sid obviously cant be interested in observing human rights if he holds the views about Sylhetis that i read. Then again most Bangalis set in their ways from Bangladesh can’t really integrate with british values.
This thread got overblown. So tower hamlets council is asking people not to eat in front of other people during romzan month. Is it the end of the world?
Hm. Isn’t the whole point of coming to Britain to be British and put these kind of squabbles aside? That was actually why I raised my eyebrow at the first point about we’s not voting for you’s. Isn’t this kind of communalism repeating the very kind of issues that the first generation sought to leave behind? It all seems pretty pathetic, frankly.
Boyo.
I agree we should leave behind whatever it is we feel we are ..er debating.. baggage.
But it’s not communalism. It’s regional differences and snobberies. The UK has them, too, and yes, it’s nice to not have them anywhere, here or in Asia.
This isn’t communalism, this is multiculturalism. These sorry liitle regionalisms do not exist in the home country, they only exist here.
This is the noise of the progeny of a particular community – the Sylhetis of Britain – which has been granted special priveleges, whose sense of victimhood have been primed, and whose sense of exceptionalism has been over-developed by liberal elites here in the UK. When British Sylhetis come face to face with opinions that run contrary to their own conflicted self-perceptions they raise a hue and cry about anti-Sylheti sentiment, the race card is never too far away either.
Halima, do you think that a credible human rights organization can afford to have members who are snobbish (I say possibly racist) and are composed of people from a differing ethnicity to the audience in the UK they are dependent upon? Is this how Amnesty International operates? What about political neutrality?
Class is only a part of the equation in the Sylheti-Dhakaiya narrative. However, regionalism tends to cut across issues of class, politics and religion. This is why upper class Sylhetis in Sylhet will still tend to insist their sons and daughters marry other Sylhetis (and especially those in Britain) and maintain fluency in Sylheti. As will Dhakaiya families. Language and ethnicity also plays it’s part in Drishtipat’s conduct. Hence Asif Saleh of Drishtipat laughing on the internet at the British High Commissioner to Bangladesh (a high ranking post) Anwar Chowdhury because he spoke Sylheti during an event when the Bangladeshi cricket team visited London and why shows tend to be in the Dhakaiya language. Where is the class dynamic there?
I don’t know how much you know about immigration patterns to the UK but Dhakaiya tend to come into the UK on student visas ie. no rights of settlement. The majority to study at institutions of dubious repute in places like Whitechapel Road. They are to be found working handing out copies of free papers like Londonlight and the Metro on weekdays when they are supposed to be studying. I hope that you are not suggesting such individuals are denizens of middle class suburbia.
Yet the Sylheti-Dhakaiya divide is present even amongst them.
As for Dhakaiya ‘big city cosmopolitanism’, why is it that Sylheti artistes like Lal Miah can embrace and fuse Sylheti culture with Brit rap culture yet Drishtipat artistes insist on maintaining cultural/political purism and look down on rap music as ‘negro culture’? If we are here in Britain as Britons then we should surely be ready to share ideas in this way?
I don’t know how much you know about immigration patterns to the UK but Dhakaiya tend to come into the UK on student visas ie. no rights of settlement. The majority to study at institutions of dubious repute in places like Whitechapel Road. They are to be found working handing out copies of free papers like Londonlight and the Metro on weekdays when they are supposed to be studying. I hope that you are not suggesting such individuals are denizens of middle class suburbia.
Yet the Sylheti-Dhakaiya divide is present even amongst them.
you mean they work rather than expect dole handouts, council housing, welfare, double incomee unemployment benefits, special extra-citizenry rights, translation services, speaking english from the day they arrive?? What awful, off the boaters they must be, eh?
“This isn’t communalism, this is multiculturalism. These sorry liitle regionalisms do not exist in the home country, they only exist here.”
Then you should target your arguments against multiculturalism, and not Sylhetis per se. You have to forgive others for assuming you have a thing with Sylhetis coz your posts suggest. evidence last para on 66. You make Rumbold look positively liberal with your contributions on multiculturalsm and Syheltis in Britain. I mean that in a nice way!;)
“Halima, do you think that a credible human rights organization can afford to have members who are snobbish (I say possibly racist) and are composed of people from a differing ethnicity to the audience in the UK they are dependent upon? Is this how Amnesty International operates? What about political neutrality?”
Not acceptable, but I Drishtipat is a member ship based organised, voluntary association, accountable to no established or representative body. As a membership based organisation, it’s only accountable to its members.
But why should they be dependent on an audience in the UK? They are a diaspore led organisation, inevitably looking back on Bangladesh most of the time, not the UK.
“Asif Saleh of Drishtipat laughing on the internet at the British High Commissioner to Bangladesh’
Whoever this person is, he’s a member of the public and often public members laugh, mock the British government. No need to take it personally. I worked with the British government in Dhaka, and coincided over Anwar Chowdhury’s spell in Dhaka, and met many of the snobbish personalities you mention. Trust me, it’s no big deal. You have to be a little bit more confident and dismiss people – esp if their motives are what you say is, to slur British Bangladeshis. Who cares what any snob thinks??
The reason why Drishtipat musicians look down to rap is possibly because they are er.. a little bit straight?
And yes, I am aware non-Sylhetis tend to come to the UK on a student visas, but culturally they come from middle class backgrounds in Bangladesh – in a country where poorer kids cannot afford education beyound primary education. They, like lots of other students from the developing countries, find themselves at a disadvantaged end of the UK economy due to the differences in the economies of North/South. They don’t share the British history of anti-racism, and hence have a different take on issues on integration, usually more akin to conversative viewpoints.
Sid/Ashiq
You could start a seperate blog altogether and we don’t need to bore everything else! Perhaps link it to other parallels, the Mir puris and the urdi speaking populations in British Pakistanis.. Similar thing going on there perhaps.. I don’t know enough.
Sonia
Knowing what you know about fasting should have been the first clue that this whole story is utter rubbish. As Sunny will no doubt correct once he gets round to it.
Typical. Johnny Dhakaiya, coming over here and handing out free papers. And they wonder why the BNP is doing so well.
Halima:
I am a liberal. A 19th century one.
Halima, believe me, on some days I make Rumbold look like a sandle and socks wearing tree hugging, guardian reading hippy.
Then you should target your arguments against multiculturalism, and not Sylhetis per se. You have to forgive others for assuming you have a thing with Sylhetis coz your posts suggest.
Yeah, but you don’t assume that, do you.
The reason why Drishtipat musicians look down to rap is possibly because they are er.. a little bit straight?
Or more likely because “artistes like Lal Miah” are just so awful.
“r more likely because “artistes like Lal Miah” are just so awful.”
I’ll check him out then..
“Yeah, but you don’t assume that, do you.”
No, but some of your postings are bit colourful on the subject! As is Ashiqs. Will pick this up again anon… off to upper mustang today where there are no internets I am afraid!
‘I am a liberal. A 19th century one.”
And liberalism in the 19th century had a fine tradition, British one anyways – if we mean Mill. And even later 19th century liberalism.. which was to emphasize individual liberty above all – even when workers could only be powerful collectively, or to move, as the British Liberal party did to welfarism. – but that was to lose the manufacturing class support to the new type of conservative parties…Mrs. Thatcher was a 19th C. Liberal in many of her ideas, and so was George Bush.”
Not sure where later 19th century liberalism came out on imperialism, though.
I can’t do fasting. My mother follows the Hindu calendar, and she is fasting at least once a week. I don’t see how she does it; I would faint.
I’m the type of person who wouldn’t eat in front of a person who was fasting; it seems really mean to smack and gobble up food when the person next to you is trying very hard to not think about food. Personally, I’d eat before going to the meeting.
Hey, I have a question: some argue that fasting during Ramadan makes you mindful of what you have, thank god, test yourself, and be on equal terms with your co-religionists, whether rich or poor (if this is wrong, someone correct me).
But all those grand fast-breaking meals….doesn’t that sort of defeat the purpose of feeling fraternity on an equal footing with everyone else? Like maybe not everyone can afford goat (or whatever the preferred dish is) for Ramadan; not everyone can afford to buy expensive gifts– if any at all– and what about the clothes that one wears when cohorting with family and friends? Isn’t all this a very class-based activity?
BTW, Ramadan is a walk in the park in terms of fasting. There are people who have been FASTING THEIR WHOLE LIVES, DREADLOCKED AND TUCKED AWAY IN THE HIMALAYAS WITH NO FRIENDS, NO GIFTS, NO HUGE FAST-BREAKING CELEBRATIONS, NOTHING. (kidding)
‘it seems really mean to smack and gobble up food when the person next to you is trying very hard to not think about food.’
Its probably worse than that. They are pinching the food allocated to people fasting and THEN eating it in front of them.
Sunny is going to dig deeper. When its convenient.
Refresh:
While I share your distate for people stealing other peple’s food (though it doesn’t suprise me), do you have any evidence that something more sinister is going on?
Stealing!! – first come first – served – surely !!
I think Refresh is just playing with the idea to make a point – That this letter is pussy footing around because the writer is too polite or circumspect, or too used to writing NULABOUR bumbf to actually write something that actually means something = the result it is misinterpreted and exploited by those who want to make their own point.
At the core is the problem the following-
Non – fasting councillors ( muslim or non muslim) eating the food that was meant for fasting councillors? (fastng councillors’ food – surely some mistake here – ED. )
or is it
Some fasting councillors eating double portions.
Refresh thinks the former – I think the latter. Refresh – shall we take a bet? A packet of Jammy Dodgers if we meet – or – Custard Creams if you prefer.
justforfun
Desi Italiana:
‘BTW, Ramadan is a walk in the park in terms of fasting.’
The purpose of fasting is to grow spiritually, and not become a hermit or damage yourself physically like people in the mountains you mention…it is not a hunger strike you know.
Anyway, what makes you think that all Muslims have huge meals and gifts and parties…most Muslims don’t…in the developing world (where the majority of Muslims are) they would be lucky to have such meals.
In Britain, because of our relative affluence, there is more indulgence, however again, many don’t.
Saq
Saqib
Are you sure. From my experience, consumption on all levels goes up by an order of magnitude in Ramadan. There is hardly any vestige of the ascetism that it was originally meant to inculcate.
Saqib – these ‘men in the mountains’ don’t fast to hurt themselves – they do it to enhance their spirituality and will power to paranormal levels – they are ‘Olympic fasting’, not ‘Sunday league’ amateur fasting.
justforfun
Sid:
“Are you sure. From my experience, consumption on all levels goes up by an order of magnitude in Ramadan. There is hardly any vestige of the ascetism that it was originally meant to inculcate.”
Certainly in affluent parts of the world this is common, especially in Britain, where i do agree that the spirit of fasting is lost in large part..though ofcourse there is nothing wrong with having a delicious meal, though, importantly in moderation. Offcourse, during this month the mosques are filled and more people worship long hours in the night.
But you know, it is about individuals treading that spiritual path…for the prophet (saw) himself said, ‘that there will be people who gain nothing from fasting except hunger’ i.e. no spiritual benefit. btw as you know…it’s not just abstaining from food, but also from sexual relations and maintaining a higher degree of character. Different people have greater difficluties than on others.
Justforfun:
‘Saqib – these ‘men in the mountains’ don’t fast to hurt themselves – they do it to enhance their spirituality and will power to paranormal levels – they are ‘Olympic fasting’, not ‘Sunday league’ amateur fasting.’
So do these guys actually continue with there normal lives, i.e. earning a living, looking after family etc…
AArgh I see the point you’re making – amateur sport against professional sport – who is the real olympian?
Fasting while leading a normal life = Amateur activity and very sporting = high moral ground. I like the association
Fasting, while being a hermit and having no family but begging on the charity of others = ‘Professional’ spirtuality seeker, living off the hard work of others = low moral ground and a bit like taking drugs to win.
Amateur = Good
Professional = self harmer and sponger.
justforfun
justforfun…you clever bunny!
Saqib:
“Anyway, what makes you think that all Muslims have huge meals and gifts and parties…most Muslims don’t…in the developing world (where the majority of Muslims are) they would be lucky to have such meals.”
Um, the rich folks I’ve seen make me think that? Yes, there’s poverty in the countries where the majority is Muslim, and for some people, it’s non-stop fasting against their own will, but the rich people do have lavish fast-breaking meals, bring nice gifts, etc. And I don’t mean just in the UK, I mean the elite of Beirut, Tehran, etc.
“So do these guys actually continue with there normal lives, i.e. earning a living, looking after family etc…”
You have, I see, defined “normal,” via capitalism (ie ‘earning a living’) and reproduction/marriage-centric.
For these guys, ‘normal’ is to chant mantras, starve oneself of material wants in order to attain a higher and purer spirituality, and so on. Personally, I’d rather see these peeps put that kind of determination towards more concrete efforts like social justice or whatever.
They are, in fact, hurting no one, though. They survive on bark and slokas, which is a lot less than what most of us live off of.
Point is that there are some who are voluntarily fasting all the time, abstaining from sex all the time, have not touched alcohol for ages, etc; not just from sunrise to sunset and having a meal afterwards. That, my friend, is hardcore fasting!
Kind of like Diwali in India and elsewhere where there are lots of Hindus: the poor folks try to scrimp together a meal, but the well-to-folks: forget it. Consumption is like during shaadi time (esp. in terms of buying gold; Diwali and marriage are times when people buy the most gold).
Point is that in every festivity, there are some who can kick off a real grand celebration, while others can’t. Nothing particular about rich Muslims doing that during Ramadan. And anyway, it is nice that rich Muslims supposedly prohibit water touching their lips, skip food from dawn to dusk (don’t forget pre-sunrise food— this ain’t fasting, folks!), and abstain from getting their groove on. Tell rich Americans here to do that, and they will scoff, “Yeah, right.” If anything, mo’ $$ means to practice all this stuff at an exaggerated level (except for the stuffy Puritans; other than that, most with more than 6 figures in his/her bank account is on a ride to hedonism)/
Desi – as you say hardcore fasting.
I met a hardcore ‘mountain man’ once when I was very ill. He quickly switched back to normal and helped out and then when I was Ok he switch back. No loss of humanity there , just total focus on the task at hand.
As you say if this focus could be used elsewhere then what could be achieved. But then there are alot of charlatans who are pretty unscrupulous
and have great sex, especially with Western women 
and the occasional Western man 
justforfun
Justforfun,
I see what you mean. I thought you were suggesting that the usual fare of cheese and pineapple on sticks was being pushed aside when an iftar pack was within easy reach. Presumably that would mean these were non-fasting councillors. For the sake of clarity (often needed in these discussions)’Non-fasting’ means both secular and non-observant.
Now I think we can share the jammy dodgers and agree that there may well be a mix of both non-fasting councillors reaching for the delectable iftar packs as well as fasting ones going for double helpings. How’s that for a bit of triangulation a la Nulabour?
Rumbold,
‘While I share your distate for people stealing other peple’s food (though it doesn’t suprise me), do you have any evidence that something more sinister is going on?’
That’s just it. Sunny attempted to get confirmation of the story by contacting Tower Hamlet Council, got what I believe is the substance of it and failed in the analysis. It needed just one more question to the council and he would have done what no one else seems to be bothered to do – get to the truth:
“Non-Muslim councillors have simply been asked to ensure that there is Iftar food available for Muslim councillors, because in previous years, Muslim councillors wanting to break their fast followings prayers had found that the Iftar packs had been eaten.”
What is sinister is how this has been turned into yet another media crusade.
“I met a hardcore ‘mountain man’ once when I was very ill. He quickly switched back to normal and helped out and then when I was Ok he switch back. No loss of humanity there , just total focus on the task at hand.”
Are you being serious? If so, tell more, please.
“But then there are alot of charlatans who are pretty unscrupulous
and have great sex, especially with Western women 
and the occasional Western man 
”
Sure, and in fact, in Kathmandu, recently, a sadhu at Pashupathi was accused of sexual abuse, the bastard (no need to wait here to follow the maxim “Innocent until proven guilty’ because the guy had been caught doing that before, and the question is, why didn’t the po po’s lock him up for a long time the first time around?) But the Himalayan hermits? They hardly even come across other fellow humans. They have more contact with hallucinations than they do with real people…
Ramadan consumption levels:
1st article from 2005:
“DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, Oct. 7 – The decorations are hanging, the cash registers are clanging, and the air of holiday cheer is everywhere. For a holy month, Ramadan is not what it used to be.
Once an ascetic month of fasting, prayer and reflection on God, Ramadan has gradually taken on the commercial trappings of Christmas and Hanukkah, from the hanging lights that festoon windows to the Ramadan greeting cards and Ramadan sales and advertising campaigns that have become the backbone of commerce for the month.
Marketers and businesses have caught on to the potential of 1.3 billion people at home fasting or breaking their daily fasts and getting back to normal life, a captive audience eager for entertainment and celebration, and more than willing to feast when the sun goes down.
Here in Dubai, the region’s supermall, commercialism has taken on a life of its own as almost everything has been dressed in the cloak of Ramadan, from consumer goods to cars. Malls are open till the early morning, and the nights rock away at dinner parties in desert tents.
“Ramadan is changing from a religious month to a cultural or social event,” said Muhammad el-Kuwaiz, a Saudi management consultant based in Dubai. “You’re using faith to commercialize something else. It doesn’t feel right.”
Sheik Ahmed Abdelaziz Haddad, the grand mufti of the Islamic Affairs Department in Dubai, puts it even more succinctly. “The problem isn’t that people are trading and doing business,” he said. “It’s that people have taken this month to be a month of shopping.”"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/international/asia/12ramadan.html
2nd is a blog by someone who apparently has spent some time in Egypt:
http://www.anthsoc.com/wp1/?p=442
More on consumption, which appears to double during Ramadan (might be worthwhile to look at the stats and how they came up with that):
1. http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=113711&d=2&m=9&y=2008&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
2. http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1427823.php/Fewer_meals_and_less_charity_for_Egyptians_over_Ramadan__News_Feature_
3. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1219339725447&pagename=Zone-English-HealthScience%2FHSELayout
4. http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2008/08/22/feature-02
5. http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=Nzg5NzQ3MzM1
Desi Italiana:
‘Point is that there are some who are voluntarily fasting all the time, abstaining from sex all the time, have not touched alcohol for ages, etc; not just from sunrise to sunset and having a meal afterwards. That, my friend, is hardcore fasting!’
Well, the whole concept of fasting is to give up voluntarily for a period of time lifes pleasures to grow spiritually, which will have an impact upon your practical life. Abstaining from sex all the time would lead to extinction and is impractical.
Anyway, abstaining from food, drink and sex is only part of the ramadan package, it is a time of engrossing oneself in long hours of prayer during the night and early hours of the morning, all while during the day you carry on normal activity. It is a comprehensive programme.
Saqib:
“Well, the whole concept of fasting is to give up voluntarily for a period of time lifes pleasures to grow spiritually, which will have an impact upon your practical life.”
Grow spiritually… for ONE MONTH!! Is this really ’spiritual’ when you are ’spiritual’ for one month?
“Anyway, abstaining from food, drink and sex is only part of the ramadan package, it is a time of engrossing oneself in long hours of prayer during the night and early hours of the morning, all while during the day you carry on normal activity. It is a comprehensive programme.”
LOL. I don’t think anyone is reading the Koran and saying prayers all night long as they exchange silk clothes and wolf down massive dishes of whatever foods people eat in various places around the world.
Also, you are not ‘carrying on normal activity during the day’ when you aren’t eating and drinking nothing.
Anyway, I think negating essentials to the body is not really beneficial to anyone, whether it’s being done year round or for one month, and whether it’s done with good or superficial intentions.
Eat food. If you have food, give some to those who don’t have it. And maybe petition the World Bank, IMF, WTO, and various gov’ts to do a radical global redistribution of food resources.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
But Saqib, surely you agree with me that there is a difference of commitment between fasting for the day and fasting for more than 2 days straight? Don’t worry, conceding to this point doesn’t make Ramadan any less spiritual, save the Gulf countries, Saudi Arabia, rich folks in various places…
Desi Italiana:
‘Grow spiritually… for ONE MONTH!! Is this really ’spiritual’ when you are ’spiritual’ for one month?,
It is when you are MORE intensly engrossed in spiritual growth for a shorter period (whilst still being spiritual throughout the rest of the year). It’s like physical training, you do your regular exercise, however if it is more intense, over a lesser period of time, there will be phyiscal growth.i.e. growth in strength. Similarly with regards to intellectual growth or learning anew skill, intense training is more effective.
‘LOL. I don’t think anyone is reading the Koran and saying prayers all night long as they exchange silk clothes and wolf down massive dishes of whatever foods people eat in various places around the world.’
Well Desi, you should drive around the mosques in the country, you will see droves of people leaving around 11-1130ish every evening, after being involved in seesions of communcal prayer…and then again be awake for 4 for collective and individual prayer, and also Qur’an reading.
I think, whilst your points on over-consumption are valid in many cases (though you have over-egged the pudding somewhat) you really are pulling at straws on the other points.
Desi Italiana:
‘But Saqib, surely you agree with me that there is a difference of commitment between fasting for the day and fasting for more than 2 days straight?’
I’m not really sure what point your trying to make here, for as i have said Ramadan is a more holistic programme of spiritual growth…in the same way combat training is different to training to run the olympics 100 metres…both serve different purposes, it is not about ‘more’ or ‘less’ committment. A skinny marathon runner would be crap at sprinting, and a beefed up sprinter crap at long distance.
You’re likening the durations of fasting to marathons????
“I think, whilst your points on over-consumption are valid in many cases (though you have over-egged the pudding somewhat)”
Hey man, it wasn’t me who ‘over-egged’ it, it was the various news media, see links in my comments.
“I’m not really sure what point your trying to make here, for as i have said Ramadan is a more holistic programme of spiritual growth”
As opposed to others who fast not during Ramadan?
“you really are pulling at straws on the other points.”
I don’t think so. I think my criticisms are valid, which are:
1. Fasting, in my view, is more harmful than not on the individual and social level
2. People may partake in fasting, but that doesn’t mean that they are necessarily spiritual or good people
3. But for those who fast, there is DEFINITELY a mental and physical difference between eating at 4 AM, skipping food until 7/8 PM at which point one eats (a lot) and someone who has not eaten for 15 days straight. Yes, there is, Saqib, and no analogies with marathons will do.
4. How do we measure ’spirituality’ anyway? It’s defined by some books, some people. But is there any objective way of defining spirituality? No. In which case, both you and I can cease to write comments re: spirituality, and my own points about spirituality are shot to hell
“A skinny marathon runner would be crap at sprinting, and a beefed up sprinter crap at long distance.”
Wrong analogy. Fasting is denying the necessary fuel for our bodies to run; skinny vs beefed up runners in short and long runs is not about denying your body something necessary, and therefore, this point is irrelevant.
“Well Desi, you should drive around the mosques in the country, you will see droves of people leaving around 11-1130ish every evening, after being involved in seesions of communcal prayer…and then again be awake for 4 for collective and individual prayer, and also Qur’an reading.”
I really, really hope that I am not being disrespectful, but I sincerely think that this time could be better used. And I don’t just mean Ramadan activities; I mean religious activities in general, like some people in the families I know who waste so many hours on this religious thing and that (this is more with Hindu folks; I’ve seen less religious intoxication in the Sikhs I know, but that may very well be just the people I know, and not Sikhs in general).
Refresh – I was suggesting that the pineapples on a stalk might be a cause, but so as to even up the possibilities, in a light hearted way, I also added that people were probably having double portions as we can’t both bet for the same thing – but the clarification you quote seems to indicate you were right and I was wrong, so I conceed you have won the jammy dodgers. My cynsism about greedy councillors has brought be down
– it was the secular menu afterall! I will look on the bright side – my waist line will not degrade.
justforfun
Desi – Not very exciting really – the mountain man I met was on the road to Chamba in HP over 25 years ago. I had to get off the bus in the middle of nowhere, as I was retching up everywhere – so was on the side of the road looking pretty bad on my own. Along saunters this sadhu, pretty naked and very thin, except for his drinking bowl and stick. He sees me with my back pack etc and in completely unaccented English asks what’s wrong. To cut a long story short – he had been a doctor but now retired and had spent three years up beyond Chamba in a cave contemplating his life. Seems he had just gone down to the plains to see a relative and was on his way back. He fished out some pills from god knows where. They were still in they metal foil so I had one and after a few hours felt much better. He then stood by the road and flagged down the next car, which till then I had not been successful at. He told the driver to take me on to Chamba and that was it. Last I saw of him was him continuing to walk up the very very steep mountain road from where we had first met, as the valey slowly fell into shadow. I suppose the moral is – behind their appearance alot of these men have histories that are ‘normal’.
justforfun
‘you have won the jammy dodgers’ – I haven’t liked them since 3rd form so I am willing to offer them to that sneaky LibDem woman from Tower Hamlets. She probably needs them more than her colleagues.