We may have had our differences in the past, in fact, we did have our differences in the past. However, we also agreed on quite a lot too. Contrary to what you may have thought, I always thought your opinions were worthwhile. You never once came across as someone that saw describing victimhood as the height of your ambition. Nor as someone who hadn’t thought through what they had to say before posting it.

To be specific, we may not have agreed, but it was at least pretty clear what we were disagreeing over.

Which, from where I’m sitting, is quite clearly what the problem is. It is not a lack of comprehension on my part, it is my complete inability to wrestle with an octopus.

Much as I have given up completely on I/P threads I am going to give up on Alas’ threads. Assuming I don’t get dunted. This one in particular is being fed from a subservient attitude I find next to intolerable. To be clear, stating what a difficulty is is fine. Rejecting, denying, cutting off, or ignoring every proffered solution – out of hand – is not particularily advancing any sort of progressive agenda.

Apologies to you all, there is a nasty side to me and I don’t like it any more than you do. It is generally brought out by passive / aggressive behaviour in others, at least so my friends tell me.

Ala, I do have comprehension skills. If you are doing as you say you are at 90, perhaps explaining what you are doing in that context would be interesting.

It’s certainly pretty unpleasant. I know we’ve had our differences, Douglas, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen you so hostile to anyone before.

As for not communicating well, please do remember that is a matter of subjective perception, usually of the kind held by those who don’t comprehend well.

Well, I’m not defending you. Though you can obviously write whatever you like. Just don’t expect it to go unchallenged.

Somehow, the less people understand me, the more I want to write.

Bloody hell. That is a pretty unique idea. Perhaps you ought to wonder why?

Now, you might think that that is sarcastic.

It is.

But it is a lot less ‘sarcastic’ than you try to be.

Lets’ leave aside the fact that I don’t think you can communicate worth a damn and try to return to substantive issues.

You say this:

Whether or not the MI marriage contract is too much for the MBC, they should have been dealing with this issue a lot earlier, but it seems these organisations are more interested in complaining about Islamophobia and scoring political points than helping their own communities.

Hallelujah! So, what do you suggest is to be done about it? I’d have thought that the likes of Sonia and Shelina have made the substantive point that, if there is any potential whatsoever to undermine the patriarchal conservatives, then young women such as yourself should be having a bash at it.

Rather than be woebegone.

On a personal note, I had a Shepherds’ Pie in Glasgows’ very own trendy South Side. Just in case that was relevant.

Sunny, is this suitably sarcastic?

Shelina and Sonia have made interesting points. If reform just means going back to basics, and getting educated, then all the better, it’d be easier to convince people that way. However, because a low standard of education and disempowerment go hand in hand and the women who suffer most from patriarchal marriage laws are aslo often barred from education and work, this is not a situation where the victims can pick up a book and help themselves. Some sort of interference is needed, and that is the job of Muslim organisations. Whether or not the MI marriage contract is too much for the MBC, they should have been dealing with this issue a lot earlier, but it seems these organisations are more interested in complaining about Islamophobia and scoring political points than helping their own communities.

The best thing abbout the MI contract is that it finally makes muslim question the finer detail of the nikaa contract in reference to reciprocal rights.

The existing sharia rules may be ambivalent about Muslim-only witnesses and male-only stewards for officiating the contract. I’m glad you’re here to point out the “cultural” laws layered on top of the Islamic laws. One of the additional failings of the MCB has been coming clean on the discrepancies between the cultural pseudo versus fiqh mandatory laws.

However, the right to divorce your spouse is a male-only privelege in Islam and part of the fiqh. The reform of this rule alone would be an impressive revision of a 7th century law.

Headline hopping muppets and PP fools dont actually care about social problems. They only like to wave their wellies in the air.

Ease up on the ‘young british street urchin muslims being ignorant’ routine though. There are many ways to skin the ‘wholesome marriage entry with haya’ cat, monolithism is only present in every stupid word that leave Ed the Pains’ lips.

I know this must sound strange coming from me, But perhaps it is time Young Muslims were given a little bit of Religious Education.

There are literally thousands of interrpretations of the Christian faith that stem from the same Book: from virulent racist to progressive liberal. I would assume that happens in Islam as well. Isn’t it important that religious education be given by moderate voices in particular those that focus on how to accomodate their faith in a secular environment?

It seems Muslims are unaware of the very basics of their faith – like how to get married. It takes a modicum of effort to pick up a range of books and do a little investigation. That is the comparatively easy part. The challenge is getting the inertia of the status quo to accept that things are not as they should be and harder still is to get them to change.

On this occasion I fall on the side of the MCB (don’t hold it against me). All the rights that the marriage contract professes to offer already exist in shariah, so no-one is demanding a ‘reinvention of shariah’ which are the cheap PR points being scored by releasing the document.

If it is really the welfare of Muslim women that is important then it is gaining substantive change from the most conservative elements of society that is critical.The PR grabbing headlines of ‘re-inventing’ shariah don’t help anyone because they turn off the very people who need to change.

What needs to happen is for the principles that already exist to be properly implemented, and for a change in patriarchal attitudes which masquerade behind the labels of Islam. All we need to do is expose the difference. Unfortunately those who misuse religion in this way are relying on the fact that people are not properly religiously educated, or are too scared because of their personal circumstances.

The first one we can all do something about – educate ourselves, the second will then automatically be addressed because it will expose the weakness and wrongness of those who do not follow the islamic principles.

well Desi it seems to be the case – but to whom, i can’t think. i had no idea British Muslims were so ignorant about their religion! I thought every goose knew that Islamic Law doesn’t exist per se as one thing anyway and that’s the whole bloody problem, as those of us who grew up in x no. of Muslim countries is fully aware. but that doesn’t seem to have reached the Western Hemisphere. muslims here seem to really have taken “Islam” as the Other and fall for this ‘its monolithic’ business, as much as many “islamophobes” but just on the other side, if you know what i mean.

or i think i agree with him anyway. this is all irrelevant anyway because if you want to look it up, you can find the relevant madhab which rules that the legal requirements for a civil marriage meets islamic requirements. you dont need the witnesses to be muslim or any special ‘mumbo jumbo’. just the intention to wed, in front of witnesses, and a contract. that makes it ‘halal’. I thought everyone knew this, but clearly not.

I had no idea that British Muslims appear to think that civil marriages are not Halal or that they are not wed in the eyes of Allah!!

this is all news to me.

so whether the MCB sanctions something or not, and people actually listen to it, just goes to show that most people don’t really know what their religion requires or not and dont really care, but listen who whoever they think ‘represents’ religion to them./ the MCB seem to have that spot.

you don’t often hear about those women who are inclined to be secular but find themselves having to make compromises to stay in their more religious community. I just thought that people would be more interested and less, well, rude, although I am sure that no one actually intended to be rude.

Katy, I make a point in looking at what people write and not on their gender, race, religion, or ethnic background. And I certainly do not use any of these attributes to discredit what people write (“e.g. you are white so you are in no position to understand what an Asian feels”).

So when I replied to Ala, I was writing in the same tone as I would write to Sunny and everyone else. I understand that sometimes the tone can be off putting specially if you are not used to, and it would be a shame if Ala didn’t write because of that, because I certainly would like to hear more. Which prompted me to write (#54).

And now you’re trying very slyly to shift your ground 180 degrees.

You are mad. I have not shifted my position at all. I have repeated the same thing over, and over. And I have no intentions to drag this further.

“Some would argue that there is no need for a new contract, that we already have British law that gives women rights equal to men. The same argument would come to the logical conclusion that people who don’t like Islamic law should, well, leave Islam.”

This is a stupid question, but is the MCB seen as the authority when it comes to “Islamic law” and defining it? Like, if one were to disagree with the MCB, does that mean they are disagreeing with Islamic law all over?

And Sid/Ravi – can you guys go easy on the fighting? I think the point is being lost somewhere here. I’m glad Katy’s brought it back on track.

Katy, I think the “shoot first, ask later, expose your reactionary underbelly, and then attempt to shift ground 180 degrees” school of argument is full on in this thread.