you are of course correct that we are all “en prise” but i think it’s also a question of your priorities. i was just saying, that if you want to get technical, every single jew is guilty many times over of things which require one of the four court-exacted deaths of stoning, burning, decapitation and strangling (no matter how humanely, uh, executed) and thus the fact that we somehow get through each day without being smitten with Divine retribution is in itself a miracle and requires us to thank G!D for Divine Compassion. on yom kippur we spend the whole day analysing our shortcomings in detail and it never fails to do my head in just how much repentance i would need to do to just come up to minimal standards. of course, one response is to curse G!D and reject religion, but somehow faith can be maintained and fulfilment and happiness can be enjoyed nonetheless. it’s the difference between optimism and pessimism.

in conclusion, i think a world without some double standards in practical application would be very hard to live in – this is why our sages said “if the Holy Blessed One Created the world according to the measure of strict justice, it could not function – therefore it was Created with the measure of Divine compassion” – we should therefore strive to imitate G!D in our compassion, rather than in our strict justice, because frankly nobody’s on a winner that way.

b’shalom

bananabrain

btw: remember which country had a transvestite win eurovision?

Is that true? That’s the most inane thing I’ve heard today!

Mustafa, all intelligent people DO see the problem.

“Furthermore, to live a life under the classification of a “homosexual” is a direct contradiction of Islam and is therefore unjustifiable. One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam. It is not ok. This is all i am saying. I did not write the rules, i merely agree with them and follow them.”

What would you say to your brother or sister or son or daughter in a real life situation if they told you they were gay?
Would you give em that little speech about why islam says its wrong, and tell them to stop being gay?
Or would you kill them, because it says so.

Learn to use your own mind and not quote me why being gay is not compatible with islam.

The concept of homosexuality has been around longer than any manmade religion on this earth and its something that humans cant help but feel.
But clearly Islam doesn’t want to acknowledge that.

“One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam.”

So they would have to denounce islam.
What if they live in country where the majority religion is islam?
Would they be given the choice to denounce and live in peace then?
Fuck no, thier worthy of death if their gay, and probably the same if they denounce islam.
Any intelligent person must see the problem here.

A juvinile comment and a bigoted response.

I assume many also have feelings of drug use, alcohol use, adultry, suicide, crime, gambling, racism, deciet, etc. I they wish to pursue them then this is their choice. Reference to the Quran will tell them that they should not pursue such a course of action. Some will follow this advice, other will ignore it, others will justify their actions on an imaginary scale of deviancy whilst doing so.

Cotravening one rule does not make a person not a muslim. Note it is stated that whilst one commits the sinful act they are not a muslim at the time of committing the act but are a muslim both before and after. The key point being that they agree the act, attitude or behaviour to be wrong.

What I am saying is that it is that however it is argued it is unacceptable in Islam and as a Muslim. Furthermore, to live a life under the classification of a “homosexual” is a direct contradiction of Islam and is therefore unjustifiable. One cannot live a life of continously committing sin regarded as worthy of death, hell, and refusal from paradise and still claim it is ok in Islam. It is not ok. This is all i am saying. I did not write the rules, i merely agree with them and follow them.

No, damn, that’s a sin!

Erm…masturbate and don’t act on the urges!

Shit, same problem!

Uhh…any suggestions?

Even gay people who want to follow their faith would be chucked out by people like jamal who think that if you contravene one rule, you are no Muslim. Then why, pray tell, do people tolerate the gambling, good-for-nothing sheikhs of Saudi, the boozers of Bradford, the womanisers all over the world get different treatment. Sure they may be ‘disapproved of’ but no one kicks them out of the mosque nor rallies to call them evil.

Bunch of double standards.

The existence of a ‘gay muslim group’ has as much significance for Islam as ‘Al Qaeda’, or a ‘pork earting muslim group’ does. It is irrelavent to the issue of Islam as the specified activity is ‘against’ Islam rather then ‘for’.

Why do you think that muslims specifically or collectively are not “tolerant” of gays and do not “live and let live”?

If people critisise Islam that is their choice. I do request their understanding and that they silence their tongues if they do not, but only if they are being offensive. It is not offensive for them to say they do not like muslims and do not agree with Islam. This is their choice of opinion. The same that I have regarding issues including homosexuality. I have asked you this before… will you tolerate your sons “hardships” and fight for “equality” when he comes home from primary school and tells you he has a boyfriend?

My point here was about being against opression and keeping an open mind about tolerating other people who may have different lifestyles or opinions.

There is a Muslim Lesbian and Gay group too – http://www.imaan.org.uk – and I bet they get enough hate-mail from Muslims.

I’m not asking you to embrace homosexuality. I’m asking why people can’t just live and let live, specially since we’ve had to go through the same hardships on similar issues of tolerance and equality.

In actual fact, gays are defended by politicians and receive exceptional rights and protection, particularly in the workplace, army, education, etc. Even getting some types of music banned from the country and elsewhere in the world. Muslim campaigners cant even get a few blasphemous cartoons banned..

I would say that gays get the same if not more then rights regarding religions. Gays are always campaigning and always getting the politicians and media on their side. For their once illegal sexuality, they have caused it to become an actual classification and receives rights based upon this classification.

Gays can now have these “civil partnerships” to receive similar rights as married people. something that straight couples cannot. You will argue that straight couples have marriage and so should gays.. but i will ask you why you do not also argue why straight couples do not have “civil partnerships” also?

I cannot speak for all muslims but i can for myself. i do not like homosexuality, but i tolerate it as it is an accepted activity (or whatever you want to call it) in this country by law. i do not wish to transgress the laws or related policies and therefore my opinion is that gays are just another set of deviants that are allowed to live and act as they choose.

gays may consider myself or other muslims as deviants also of a differing nature for not liking them due to our religion. They therefore have a right (according to their own principles) to be angry towards myself or other muslims.

The point is that I do not really care what they think of my opinion and do not really care of the opinion they have of myself or other muslims.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, but I would stand by my point. I’m familiar with the argument that to lie with a man as.. etc is ambivilent, but I don’t buy it any more than you do. And of course I am aware that the stricture of death for gays is in the same book that commands death for wearing mixed fabrics. My point was that while some aspects of judaism (as with christianity and islam) have found a way of accommodating the original text and still managing to live in a post-bronze age world, a fundamentalist cannot. He (or she) must stand by the text. Which says kill.

As far as lesbianism is concerned, as far as I know the Koran makes no mention and only Paul (i.e. post-Christ {who never mentioned sexual orientation} and with his own serious sexual issues) has a problem. This could be because lesbian activity does not effect the dynastic/financial value of a woman.

As for ‘bigger fish to fry’; wouldn’t argue, but this is the particular fish we are frying. Judaism, like the other Abrahamic religions, starts from the position that gays are subject to the death penalty and, when we feel like being nice, we’ll find a way around that. But you are still en prize, as it were.

basic texts of these religions still identify homosexuals as offensive to G!D and worthy of death.

as far as judaism is concerned, this is a misrepresentative oversimplification. if you don’t mind me doing another big fat post, i’ll reiterate a previous argument i made at http://www.comparative-religion.com. the relevant biblical verses are:

Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”

leaving aside the translation difficulties here, which are considerable, it occurs to me that it is possible that this verse could be easily “disarmed” simply by saying “it’s impossible to ‘lie with a male’ as one ‘lies with a female’”, for the simple reason that the acts concerned are anatomically different. nobody ever tries that particular approach. unfortunately, i don’t actually think that the text will really support that, although it would be nice if it did.

the way i approach this admittedly difficult issue is this: halacha (jewish law) at least in its basic written form in the Torah prescribes the death penalty for almost everything, including gathering sticks on Shabbat. what you have to understand is the way that capital punishment works in practice in a halachic framework, which is this: it is virtually impossible to secure a conviction in a capital case, for the reason that the standard of proof requires would a) require two witnesses to warn the about-to-act-homosexually couple that their action was punishable by death and b) for the couple to respond immediately by saying “we know and we don’t care and we’re going to do it anyway” and then c) *immediately* proceed to carry out the forbidden act, which is in any case restricted to refer to anal sex alone.

the next restriction would be that there would have to be a religious court that was a) authorised to try capital cases (which has not existed since the destruction of the Temple and won’t until the Messiah comes) and b) had not passed a death sentence within the last SEVENTY years. now, when you consider the number of things that technically qualify for a death sentence, the chances of getting this to trial would be effectively nil.

finally, even in the unlikely event of having a suitable court and a suitable sinner, there is another safeguard, which is the “eye for an eye” mechanism whereby if a blind man knocks out another man’s eye, there’s no way the court can penalise him accordingly, because he hasn’t got another eye. from this, the rabbis deduced that a fine must be allowable instead and they then extended this to cover many other cases. by this logic, even if convicted, the most you would get would be a fine.

returning to the question of equivalence, the way the halacha works is that acts that are *equivalently penalised* are seen as spiritually equivalent. therefore, if breaking Shabbat is punishable by death, then it’s logically “just as bad” as homosexuality. this equivalence means that it is halachically indefensible to sanction homosexuality *if you do not ALSO sanction Shabbat violation.* and i don’t see many jewish communal bodies that check up on whether you keep Shabbat, much less inspect what you get up to in your own bedroom. what is more, to *discriminate* against or otherwise mistreat someone verbally, physically or otherwise, on the basis of the *status* of “homosexual” (as opposed to for an actual act that you witnessed) is even *worse* than what they are supposed to have done in the first place. therefore, people who are more concerned with gays than Shabbat are guilty of imposing their own priorities on the Divine, which is really, really bad. at no point that i am aware of, do the sages start banging on about what is natural and what is unnatural, or about how sex is only for procreation (which they don’t believe) – they simply confine themselves to what is permitted and what is not.

incidentally, none of this applies to lesbianism, btw – although it is obviously not approved of, it’s not actually explicitly forbidden and you can be an active lesbian without breaking any law as far as i know (although i am not a halachic expert).

hopefully, i have outlined why it’s not as simple as “G!D hates gays”. i am not trying to brush this under the carpet, obviously the halachic solution falls far short of complete sanction for and acceptance of homosexuality, but you are (or at least should be) effectively protected against discrimination even if you’re disapproved of and that’s more than can be said of most other ways of addressing this issue. consequently i feel no conflict between my religious principles and my many friendships with gay people whether jewish or not (and, while i’m at it, the Torah is only addressing us when it says “you”, so actually this is only a problem for jews, as i think Q has pointed out) – in fact, by not being homophobic and fighting homophobia, i consider it to be a religious duty. so there we are.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Would you want your son or daughter to be gay?
Many would give you the generic answer that they don’t mind what sexual orientation thier son/daughter turned out to be, its thier choice.
But that answer would come MAINLY from parents living in societies or countries where homosexuality is already kind of accepted.
i.e. thier son/daughter can openly say thier gay without being taunted or beaten up.
Now even in countries wheres homosexuality is widely accepted such as UK/US you still get prejudice towards gays and also gay bashing incidents.
But on the whole its not too bad to be gay around london and other places in uk/us.

But Pakistan/Bangladesh/India are no where near that level of acceptance.

Also the british schooling system does not create more homophobes amongst Pakistani males.
The only reason males in pakistan/bangladesh/india might be less homophobic for is because theres no openly gay people around them or people telling them that its fine to be gay.
They don”t have the sort of exposure males living in the UK/US have for them to even give a crap about gays.

‘hands up who would like their son or daughter to turn out gay’

Daughter, not a problem; no unwanted pregnancies, no STD’s, no malodorous spotty-Herberts hanging around, greatly reduced chance of a physically abusive relationship, probably a phase so no need to write of grand-kids just yet.

But I admit that if I had a son who was gay I’d be less sanguine. Not because of ‘moral’ hang-ups but because the hard times he would still be likely to face.

Col. Mustapha makes a good point; communities might ‘tolerate’ homosexual sub-cultures, but tolerance is something the dominant group can withdraw at any time.

Moslem, Jewish and Christians can all point to examples of gays who are not currently being persecuted, but the basic texts of these religions still identify homosexuals as offensive to god and worthy of death. A fundamentalist of any of these religions must necessarily take that view.

Which is another reason that religious fundamentalism is incompatible with civilised society.

However (I’m not sure if this is what you meant) that’s not the case in Kolkata. It’s not laissez-faire there, it’s a vocal and public homosexual community. The gay pride march in Cal remains the only one in India and Kolkata also was home to India’s first gay marriage quite recently (or civil ceremony). I linked to it in the comments section of one of Sunny’s previous threads, I can dig it up if you like.

Cal is cool

That doesn’t mean to say that there not looked down upon; cos believe me they are.
Just cos certain countries have little gay communities which are relatively seperate from the rest of society, doesn’t mean theyv’e been accepted.
It means that all the camp or gay people have formed thier own group, so they don’t get picked on, bullied and also to fit in.

Ive seen it in Bangladesh with my own eyes; there left alone as they stick to themselves.
But they are still looked down upon, homosexuality is still looked down upon and not only that the attitude towards them is, especially the men is that there not real men.

The ones that do accept it are the ones that most probably live near by them and do it to live in peace.
That doesn’t mean that they accept homosexuality.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1969663,00.html

i mean, what a dilemma for ken livingstone – who does he most need to be seen to suck up to? i feel for him i really do. hur hur hur.

for those of you interested in how jewish people deal with homosexuality, there’s a jolly good film called “trembling before G!D” directed by a chap i met a couple of years ago about orthodox gays. there’s at least one rabbi i know who started off orthodox but had to change denomination when he came out. outside orthodoxy at least the vast majority of gay people that i know personally are actually in the rabbinate, if you can believe that. incidentally, dafydd himself is one of the tribe, in case you didn’t know.

the position of my rabbi, incidentally (who is about as liberal as you can get within the bounds of jewish law) is that although certain types of sexual behaviour are problematic, condemning and punishing people for engaging in them is even more problematic and raises the issue of selective enforcement, considering that we don’t witch-hunt and sanction those who publicly desecrate the Sabbath, which is far more serious religiously speaking. this is a get-out, of course, but at least it addresses the problem of homophobia to some degree. there is, of course, a certain amount of argument as to the degree to which halacha (jewish law) can control what goes on in a bedroom, so it does rely on consent, practically speaking. i believe there’s also an question about whether the laws are really aimed at the “dabbler” as opposed to the, uh, 100% homosexual, as it were. in other words, there’s no sanction in jewish law for homophobic language or behaviour, despite the actions of many.

i was also wondering about this issue within the muslim world (if not islam per se), given that there is this, er, long and proud tradition, as described above. in fact, one of the most famous traditions of “boy-love” comes from the land of our taliban chums, the pathaans (or pashtouns if you want to be all war-correspondent about it) viz this celebrated poem:

there’s a boy across the river
with a bottom like a peach
but alas, i cannot swim…

b’shalom

bananabrain

I think Sajn makes a point and that is that despite the official attitude to homosexuality in Pakistan, in practice there is a large and relatively undisturbed gay sub-culture, very expressive and in some quarters tacitly accepted – just as it is in parts of India. It is strange how official attitudes and hypocrisies co-exist with a kind of folk tolerance and laissez faire sensibility towards things like this on the sub-continent. Calcutta just staged its first gay pride march a couple of years ago. And we all know the jokes told to us by Pakistani Punjabi friends about the Pathan prediliction for ‘boy love’.

Good book on this is subject is >Same-Sex Love in India : Readings from Literature and History by Ruth Vanita

+++++++

Lambda literary award finalist, Same-Sex Love in India presents a stunning array of writings on same-sex love from over 2000 years of Indian literature. Translated from more than a dozen languages and drawn from Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, and modern fictional traditions, these writings testify to the presence of same-sex love in various forms since ancient times, without overt persecution.

Link at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312293240/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prod_2/103-3537829-8961466?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

(Sunny, you should allow us to put HTML links in these comments!)