On inter-racial marriages
I got this in an email from a reader:
I met my husband when I was 15 and he was 19 I am now 51. We had no problems going out as a couple to pubs and resturants from anyone. With it being the 70′s you think there would have been.We had the odd stares but to be honest it was more his family and friends that were not keen. Now people do not raise an eyebrow.
To cut a long story short, yes there have been problems with my husbands relations etc, but nothing I could not have handled. We have four children 2 boys and 2 girls aged 28, 25, 22 and 18. It is them that I now worry about they do not know where they belong. My older son has told me this. They are not white and they are not indian. they are half and half as they say.
What do other people think, do they agree with my children not knowing their identity and is it perfectly ok to feel like that.Or are people totally against white people marrying sikh. I know that there are culture clashes but it would be nice to know.
Dorinda
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Filed in: Culture,Race politics
Trying to define yourself by aligning to a people who associate along religious, cultural, racial or national lines is futile in my opinion.
Both my parents are as Punjabi as kanak di roti but to my Indian relatives I am a firangi through and through and to my white friends I’m Indian.
I say I’m me.
“What do other people think, do they agree with my children not knowing their identity and is it perfectly ok to feel like that.”
People whose parents both come from the same socio-cultural background but are in a place where they are not the majority (i.e. diasporans) experience identity ruminations, so Dorinda, your children are not the only ones. And in my opinion, that is ok.
It’s interesting people assume you have to choose, not that you can create something new. How else do they think cultures/traditions/etc evolved?
“It’s interesting people assume you have to choose, not that you can create something new.”
It was attempted once upon a time:
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1688
I have some mixed race nephews in my family. One is very young and the other is a teenager. I wonder if they will feel like this when they are older?
A lot of effort is made to make them feel like everyone else in the family and to fully integrate them. They seem pretty happy and are ever keen to meet up with their family, which is a good sign of success. I do however imagine the situation was very different for those kids who grew up on the 80s/90s. I think people would have been less accepting then – on both sides, at least where I grew up.
I don’t think people are strongly against Anglo-Sikh relationships but what does seem to annoy many of Sikh descent is the children of such relationships being denied their Sikh cultural heritage and raised solely in an Anglicised culture. Someone once said this is how our culture is “deleted.”
Being accepted into any group is a two way reciprocal process. Effort has to be made by both sides. In this respect Panjabi society seems to be lagging behind many others in accepting “outsiders”, but from where I am standing, this situation is changing rapidly.
Dorinda shouldn’t worry. Many people who grow up in a diaspora feel cultural duality, so this feeling of not fully belonging is not uncommon. The key, I believe, is to make people proud (in the non BNP way) of their cultural heritage. If they are not, this often leads to lopsided personalities and manifests as a denial of one half of their heritage as well as an overblown attempt to fit the mould of the chosen identity. One should be able to feel “at home” in both cultures in my opinion. This requires interacting with both.
The way I see it, any child growing up in the UK will have a full exposure to the culture of the British side from social interaction, media and education (amongst other things.) Therefore it is important to place an emphasis on teaching the non mainstream culture as this is easily lost. This should enable them to make proper informed choices regarding identity in adulthood, instead of being limited due to ignorance.
The offspring of half caste children inevitably lose out on part of their cultural and religious identity as they naturally have to maintain a careful balance between both. It is easier not to choose and alienate one side or another. Given that culture and religion are still important, even when only symbolic, to the vast majority of South Asians, inter-racial unions are not encouraged and neither should be unless both partners know what they are getting into.
As I understand it, the Muslim religion does not permit women marrying outside Islam under any circumstances. Hence one has to leave the fold of Islam to marry a Christian or Jewish man. If the same is explicitly understood from Sikh scriptures (and I expect there is some prohibition in line with most religions) then Dorinder is no longer a Sikh person and need not worry about maintaining Sikh traditions (which are closely aligned to their Punjabi culture).
As long as Dorinder and her immediate family are happy that she married a white person and that her children will (inevitably) be more white than Sikh Punjabi in outlook and conduct then after all these years of marriage it shouldn’t matter to Dorinder what others in her community think. Should it?
My future children will be mixed white/Indian, so this post has made me feel quite sad. Why do Dorinda’s children feel so confused? Were they excluded from family events on both sides for not being white/Indian enough?
In my (childless and probably rose-tinted) view, mixed race children shouldn’t feel excluded from both sides of their cultural identity, but instead enjoy the best of both worlds. But I suppose this is only possible if you have accepting, loving families on both sides.
I really don’t know where you’re getting this from? I relate to my Bajan side (my Dad’s from Barbados) a great deal because over 90% of my family is from that side. I relate to my Mums (white English with historical roots in Ireland, further back spain) because I was born and raised in Britain.
I love a pint down the pub, and fried flying fish and plantain down in Tooting. No need to delicately balance anything!
Well said.
Ashik your point is myopic and fails to face important aspects of this debate. It is important because people are increasingly forming mixed race relationships and the issue of the children’s identity becomes a matter of concern. The email of the original post shows how this can be problematic for the children of such unions, so the matter deserves more than the swift treatment you gave it.
In your post you fail to factor in the point that the father in this case just may well want his children to be exposed/influenced by Sikh thought and culture. This would be natural.
You made this point:
“As long as Dorinder and her immediate family are happy that she married a white person and that her children will (inevitably) be more white than Sikh Punjabi in outlook”
I don’t believe this to be necessarily true. I know of a few half Sikh, half English people who are now well into their late 20s/early 30s. Some of them have heavily adopted the Panjabi Sikh identity some a more British white one. Besides I don’t know how you concluded that Dorinda was white based on the post?
Personally I still think being able to define yourself is the core matter here. Negating one aspect of your cultural heritage during your upbringing is plain sad. I think in future more people will be of mixed unions and the matter will be less novel and problematic as it can be now.
However we may want to ponder whether it is healthy for children to have to do the mental gymnastics required to conciliate two often very different cultures. I don’t know the answer to this but I am sure more and more children will go through this for better or for worse in future.
Maybe it will be a norm in future?
its the pressure from groups to define as one of them, that’s the problem. and it affects different individuals in differing amounts, depending on how much a particular family unit can be bothered.
and we know there is this big pressure among indian cultures,even when its someone from one part of the country marrying another part.
i have to say there is big pressure on my husband to show that he is making an effort to ‘integrate’ – i can’t go anywhere with him in bangladesh without people asking enthusiastically if he has converted, if he likes ‘our culture’ what he thinks of ‘our country’ etc. people are very happy when they hear him speak bengali, and then they say things like oh sister it is good you have brought someone into our culture. that’s the way it is, and people seeem to be quite happy when they think i have brought ‘him’ ‘into our culture’ – and accepting of this ‘foreign’ person then. because he has married into the ‘culture’ so now he has to show he is ‘one of us’. if people thought he weren’t making an effort (which they do because he is vegetarian_) there are often problems.
so it all depends on the who were what, and what is considered ‘inter-marrying’.
and as i said at the beginning, what is considered ‘inter-marrying’ in the indian subcontinent does not even need to be ‘outside’ the race box.
to point out:
when i was in school in kuwait, most of the kids were mixed with parents from different countries –
that was normal, it was unusual to have your parents from the same place. it was no biggie, everyone always said they were half-[nationality 1} and half {nationality 2} – so clearly no prob for the ‘mental gymnastics’.
and because usually both parents originating countries were ‘somewhere’ else, given it was such an expat country, there wasn’t such a competing group dynamic
all the time ( of course that happened to a certain extent, depending on who was who, but seeing as they were in a ‘third culture’ it was less immediate)
besides, it always depends on the context, kids are pretty clever, they[‘re not dumb. its only when its considered “bad” to be “half-caste” – i.e. a prevailing idea among the adults – that kids will pick it up as a negative and have an ‘identity crisis’. if there isn’t any thinking of it as any crisis, there isn’t a problem.
People have an identity crisis when they are made to feel they have to be one thing or the other. and when people seem to believe in the ‘separate’ races and ‘groups’..well..
Dear Dorinda,
I’d tell your kids that there’s really no point worrying about it. The stronger-willed ones will choose to do their own thing; those who feel more at ease being part of a particular ‘group’ will choose. As long as they realise that they have a choice.
Personally, I go along with just about everyone else. There is no need to choose. Hell, I’m full-blooded Indian, but I consider myself to be much more British (which some see as ‘white’). I think as long as they have people around them who appreciate both sides of the coin, so to speak, they will stop worrying about what to do. I know I have.
What Sonia said is really important and true as well. I think as long as your kids know they are valuable in themselves, they won’t feel pressured to ‘pick a team’. Communities will always proselytise for their own ends; true individuals have to show some initiative before they make the leap ‘to belong.’
It’ll get easier with time, at least in cities like London where mixed race people are set to become the largest group within the BME populace.
New cultures will be created out of the fusion of the old, people will find their own way with it. At least that’s my hope…
There is nothing wrong with the sense of wanting to belong. It is one of our social needs as human beings. I read somewhere that kids from mixed-backgrounds are happier if they embrace both cultures, and are able to live with both as part of their identity. This includes those from 2nd gen and 3rd gen who roam from their ancestral culture to mainstream culture and back. As we move forward to the 21st century in this global world, it is becoming almost the norm.
Ravi:
‘There is nothing wrong with the sense of wanting to belong. It is one of our social needs as human beings.’
I know that – all I’m saying is people shouldn’t concede to an emotional desire to ‘belong’ without thinking about it a little bit first. It can lead to some very stupid decisions – people doing things that they regret – and sometimes to tragedy. As someone who’s seeing the effects of this firsthand right now, I just wanted to remind people to deliberate a little first.
Hi
Thanks everyone for your kind response. I am sure my children will choose and eventually know where they belong. Its just very difficult sometimes at family functions. The stares they get and of course myself. But they are strong willed adults.In time they will know.
Hi
Thanks everyone for your kind response. I am sure my children will choose and eventually know where they belong. Its just very difficult sometimes at family functions. The stares they get and of course myself. But they are strong willed adults.In time they will know. Dorinda
Hi dorinda hope your well
regarding religion
how do your children view themselves religiously
were they forced to be christian
Dorinda, the stares come from the Asian or the White side? It is disheartening to hear that after almost 3 decades, they still haven’t got used to your children and your marriage.
I guess we were lucky. My daughter turns 21 this year and I can’t recall a single ‘look’ or comment by either side, ever. Maybe it helps that my wife’s family are buddhist and my daughter has no trouble reconciling that with my atheism. She values her Asian heritage, but having been raised in rural Northumberland since she was a toddler sees herself as English but with a bonus ‘extra’.
It’s not an even balance, but how could it be when friends and the pervasive culture are as much a part of identity as the home?
I sympathise with those who have found that crossing a racial/religious divide has resulted in conflict and a less than complete acceptance by one side or another. Surely we’re moving beyond that? We must, or there’s no bloody hope for us.
Hi,
I think your older children are going through the natural stage of ‘who am I?’ which we all go through white or asian. In time as they get to know themselves better all will become clear and knowing they have love and support from family is all that is required. 1st generation sikhs generally all experience it, especially girls as trying to juggle western culture with eastern constraints is difficult.
Hi,
My children always go to the indian weddings with my husband and also festivals that they have to go to. It is I who always stay at home.my children have never been to church. As I do not see my relations now apart from my mum and two sisters they have never needed to. But they have been bought up more indian.But they are still confused.
Dorinda
Perhaps that’s the reason they feel confused. It is already hard for 2nd and 3rd gen “immigrants” to be brought up as Indian in the West – it must be harder for those where one parent is of Anglo/European descent.
Ravi
I’m not sure. As Fiona said, many go through the “I don’t know who I am” thing, whatever their background. I probably did myself at some stage. From my experience, the half caste kids in my family generally love the Panjabi culture thing i.e. either the food, the bhangra, melas, the boisterous weddings and all that….even some stuff I am not particularly fond of…whether this will change when they are older, I don’t know.
I have noticed the occasional pangs of self doubt from the older one but when this is brought up I think it is absolutely crucial that family give them honest and positive feedback. The kids are unique and all the better for it. They should be told to be proud of what they are and never to hide it (maybe this is the influence of Sikh though on me?) Sometimes it just takes time to develop confidence and most of us will have moments of self doubt and insecurity. The important thing is to accept yourself. Some people do this quickly, some people take half a lifetime. I think an immediate, warm, open and accepting family is the panacea to this issue.
Dorinda, it sad you never joined them at these things. You might have enjoyed. But I know sometimes feeling like an outsider can be nerve racking.
Fiona Bruce @ 22:
‘especially girls as trying to juggle western culture with eastern constraints is difficult.’
Eastern ‘constraints’ vs. Western culture?
Are you not generalising? What is ‘eastern culture’ exactly? Do you mean South Asian or specifically Indian Sikh culture? How is ‘Western culture’ liberating in comparison?
I can assure you that despite many problems (often highlighted on PP without counterbalancing articles showing British South Asian cultures in it’s positive contributions to life), South Asian cultures amount to much more than oppressing the women in our lives and restricting their chances in life.
Maybe I’m just being overly PC, but why are commentators using the word “half caste”??
Anyway, Dorinda, I don’t know why you decided to stay put and not attend family functions on your husband’s side, but if it has to do with the comfort factor, I can totally understand. There are some ladies in my family who have married my uncles (they are Sikh Panjabi), and they are not of Indian origin. Though no one in my family has intentionally ever made them feel excluded or alienated, these aunts of mine feel left out because of the language barrier, and all of the ‘traditions’ and ‘customs’ that they have yet to learn or understand. The only ones who no longer feel left out are the ones who have been around for years, and have thus taken to going to gurdwara functions, learned basic Punjabi, etc (interestingly, it’s the women that always have to ‘assimilate’, never the guys).
“But they are still confused.”
Maybe ‘confused’ is the wrong word, even if your kids use it. Perhaps they are ‘finding’? And in that sense, we are all ‘finding.’ I’m largely past this phase now, but when I was growing up, it was a constant struggle to find myself between where I was born and raised, where my parents came from, their idea of India of 30 years ago, AND the fact that my parents were becoming ‘Indian Americans’. Also, my parents have been reflecting on their identity– and they are both of Indian origin.
So everyone’s going through it, whether both their parents come from the same socio-cultural background or not.
“I sympathise with those who have found that crossing a racial/religious divide has resulted in conflict”
I don’t think it’s always ethnic and religious. It is socio-cultural as well. For example, there were Indian American kids whose parents never taught them the ‘mother tongue’ (ie Gujarati, Punjabi, etc), and these kids never really frequented “Indian” functions or were in situations where they felt estranged. Their parents wanted them to be fully ‘assimilated’ into “American culture.” (Admittedly, this was a small minority).
Ravi:
“It is already hard for 2nd and 3rd gen “immigrants†to be brought up as Indian in the West ”
2nd gen and 3rd gen are not ‘immigrants’– that’s 1-gers (at least according to the definition here in the US).
Sonia, #11:
“i have to say there is big pressure on my husband to show that he is making an effort to ‘integrate’ – i can’t go anywhere with him in bangladesh without people asking enthusiastically if he has converted, if he likes ‘our culture’ what he thinks of ‘our country’ etc. people are very happy when they hear him speak bengali, and then they say things like oh sister it is good you have brought someone into our culture. that’s the way it is, and people seeem to be quite happy when they think i have brought ‘him’ ‘into our culture’ – and accepting of this ‘foreign’ person then. because he has married into the ‘culture’ so now he has to show he is ‘one of us’. if people thought he weren’t making an effort (which they do because he is vegetarian_) there are often problems.”
That’s very interesting… when I was with my ex, who was not of India origin, and we would hang out with people who were of the same cultural and linguistic background as he was, I often found myself making an effort to be a part of the fold– ie learning stuff, trying to pick up the language, etc, even though no one ever asked or pressured me to. To everyone’s credit, no one ever made me feel that I had to do so, and his friends and family tried hard to speak in Italian or English so that I wouldn’t feel left out, but really, you can’t expect people to speak in a language that is not their mother tongue, and just for the sake of one person at that at like a huge gathering into the wee hours of the morning. Despite their best intentions, however, it was tiring and draining for me to try and ‘integrate’ (if I didn’t, I would have really been at a loss), and I WOULD inevitably feel left out.
Re: religion, that was never, ever brought up in a malicious and ridiculing manner (he, his family, and friends were not Hindu, like I am). If anything, I was asked about Hinduism out of genuine curiosity. People seemed to accept and appreciate me for who I was, as different as I was, (and delighted that I tried get in the groove of “their” things, especially when I said something sarcastic or snarky in their language). I admit that if my religious upbringing had been alluded to as a negative marker of difference, I would have been irritated.
So in contrast, it’s interesting that your husband constantly gets put up in front of the grand jury so to speak…I imagine that he may get exhausted from time to time? And really, it’s unfair that people expect him to be a certain way.
Which is why I’ve put immigrants under quotes, which I am sure you’ve noticed. However, we are 2nd gen and 3rd gen of something. How should I frame it next time?
Dorinda just sit your kids down and speak to them
discuss with them their identity and to be proud it
or are they are afraid of being asian?
You got to ask yourself that
“Maybe I’m just being overly PC, but why are commentators using the word “half casteâ€??
Oh my god – and we recently went on and on about some chick on F-word using the the phrase ‘women of colour’ and indeed had a long debate about it amongst ourselves.
and no one bats eye lid at this phrase?? We are a terribly enlightened and progressive bunch.
Here’s a story. I was 17, or 18, on some youth exchange trip on the German-Polish border visiting a concentration camp. My youth worker was mixed race and we chit chatted, coming out of the concentration camp, I asked about his background and innocently used the word ‘half-caste’… I was a bit sheltered, and didn’t know much about anything then. My youth worker, replied, ‘oh so, you’re a Paki then?’ I apologised to say, perhaps I said something inappropriate, I didn’t know the term was offensive, but that it was a bit harsh for him to teach right from wrong by calling me a Paki. He replied, I wanted you to know how I felt.
And this all took place as we were learning about the Holocaust. I didn’t agree with his methods, and thought his school of youth work was poor. But I never made the mistake of calling anyone by that term again – and even when mixed race children use it, I remind them that it’s an offensive word – like Paki.
Ashik @ 26
I am only in a position to comment on indian sikh culture and although i would not say western/British culture offers everything, indian culture can/has been very oppressive.
The differences in the way boys and girls have been brought up. Girls to be submissive and boys to do whatever they like! As a family’s honour is said to be carried by their daughter’s. Western culture as far as i am aware has no such thing. This is the way kids were brought up in the 70-80s, i appreciate that ‘Eastern’ communities do not oppress so harshly as they once did but some of us are still trying to balance the way we were expected to be against the way we are now ‘allowed’ to be. So this internal struggle can often lead to ‘Who am I?’
Fiona
I don’t know what kind of Sikh girls you have met. The ones I have known were hardly submissive by any stretch of the imagination. This includes the ones in my immediate family both from here and Panjab.
Are you doing that thing when you project the west as the champion of women’s liberation and us as savage, brutal oppressors? White people have been beating darkies with that stick for too long – time to put it away now – please.
Britain’s own record on women’s rights was hardly glorious only a few generations back. Yes, there is a level of conservatism that appears in these matters within Sikh society. This is not dissimiliar to values many in this country held not long ago, when family seemed to mean a lot more than it appears to do today.
What I don’t understand is how failure to go along with the sexual liberation that characterises white feminism is made out to be a failure in another culture. It’s more healthy to let a community develop and evolve itself than force your own ideologies and judgements on it, in my opinion.
Yes, we have changes to make. Like everyone else.
“However, we are 2nd gen and 3rd gen of something. How should I frame it next time?”
Isn’t it already implicit when you say “2nd” or ’3rd gen’ that you trace your ‘roots’ from somewhere else?
“The offspring of half caste children inevitably lose out on part of their cultural and religious identity as they naturally have to maintain a careful balance between both.”
I’m sorry, but this sentence is really narrow-minded. It’s not only “half-caste” children who are negotiating their cultural and religious identity, but also diasporan kids whose parents both come from the same ethno background.
And this argument about ‘losing out on their cultural and religious identity’ is something I’ve heard 1st generation South Asian parents saying about their kids born and raised in say, the US, which is why these parents shove India/Pakistan/whatever down their kids’ throats. Often these parents argue that their diasporan kids ‘lose out’ on their cultural and religious identity.
If ‘losing out’ is such a big deal (and really, ‘losing out’ on what?), then make sure the kids are brought up in India, for example. The parents can hope that their kids don’t fall into the company of, say, Indian secularists, or Indians who speak more in English than they do in the regional tongue, and again, those Indians who follow American pop culture more than the Indian one [close irony tags].
Dorinda:
In all seriousness, send your kids to South Asia, India, or wherever their father comes from. My friends who are bi-ethnic and are comfortable with who they are have spent a considerable amount of time in the region of where their parent comes from. And though I am not bi-ethnic, I was effectively and finally cured of the “Who am I?” syndrome when I went to Nepal (not in the sense of ‘going back to my roots’ type of deal because my parents aren’t from Nepal, but as in fully understanding that I am an American of Indian origin, and that is who I am).
Overextended trip to South Asia is what I say.
Submissive in the family home and living a separate life away from family ie 2 lives. I dont think the West have liberated women i think education and time has liberated women.
It is unhealthy when girls are expected to be highly educated, well travelled, worldly yet not not sexually liberated, this kind of inconsistency creates problems. I do not think sikh/indian girls have to be as sexually liberated as western girls but the way they are expected to know so much in some senses and so little in other ways, is hard on them.
Communities will always develop slowly, change is difficult. Sikhs of today are similar to the english of 1 /2 generations ago. Sikhs have a great sense of family which generally speaking in the modern english family has declined.
The sikh girls I know are very different to each other, 1 extreme to the other.
Above was a response to Dalbir @ 35
#39
Ok, but you can understand it is sometimes annoying when “eastern” men are continually portrayed as oppressive, misogynistic cavemen.
Hang on a second please……
…sorry I’m back, I just had to club the missus because she voiced a contrary opinion to my own.
Sikh girls are amongst the most vocal and opinionated I know. That is why I never get this thing about them being systematically oppressed. They are way too mouthy for that. Unless I’ve been meeting an unrepresentative batch.
As for that double life crap….shame on anyone doing that. Cowards. But don’t forget that plenty of blokes are doing it too. Why no hue and cry about them being oppressed? Have you not read Sathnam Sanghera’s book?
Maybe it helps that my wife’s family are buddhist and my daughter has no trouble reconciling that with my atheism.
Shouldn’t do, Buddha had the right idea by telling his followers to worry less about God and more about their actions.
Sikh girls are amongst the most vocal and opinionated I know. That is why I never get this thing about them being systematically oppressed. They are way too mouthy for that. Unless I’ve been meeting an unrepresentative batch.
Being opinionated doesn’t mean squat to be honest, if the families are still patriarchal and the men get more freedom. I think Sikh families are relatively liberal, but when it comes to the crunch – Punjabi males are still among the most sexist around.
@ Dalbir, #41:
‘Sikh girls are amongst the most vocal and opinionated I know. That is why I never get this thing about them being systematically oppressed. They are way too mouthy for that. Unless I’ve been meeting an unrepresentative batch.’
I partially agree with what you’re saying. Sikh girls can often be quite vocal and opinionated. That doesn’t protect them from stealth oppression though. I think that while a lot of men of Indian origin could object to the status quo a bit more and do more to even the workload in marriages, you’re not thinking about the oppression-by-guilt practised often by parents, especially mothers. It’s not always the guys’ fault, I know.
My sisters are two of the most sassy and popular women I know. Yet they too succumbed to pressure from my parents to get married, even though they weren’t emotionally prepared. This is now having its disastrous effects on my eldest sister, although my second-eldest sis is OK because she knew who her husband was.
Regardless of their own natural personalities, a lot of Indian girls are ‘moulded’ using the twin anchors of guilt (‘don’t you care about your parents/family?’) and shame (‘what will the community think? what will people say?’). So yeah, the oppression does exist and it’s not about East/West or male/female dichotomies.
The double standard is what leads to people like Dorinda needing to distance themselves altogether from something that might have been familiar to them. I think the correction of this can only begin in the families but it often doesn’t, and accordingly I really don’t buy into the whole ‘Indian family structure is so much more secure than in Britain/the West.’
As long as nobody tries to make Dorinda’s children feel shameful for being who they are, they will be fine.
I think DI’s suggestion is a really good one, not least because it means the kids will get to see the India of NOW, the India that they would move to if they were so inclined, and not the nostalgic vision so often preached by older relatives.
Dalbir:
“Sikh girls are amongst the most vocal and opinionated I know. That is why I never get this thing about them being systematically oppressed. They are way too mouthy for that.”
Though I disagree with the way Fiona is framing the issue, and I am not entirely Sikh, a lot of us Desi women are vocal and opinionated precisely because of the sexism and chauvenism that we have to deal with from some folks (whether men or women) and it is a way of resisting. But as Sunny said, being opinionated doesn’t necessarily mean that much if there is still sexism around the hood. If anything, having to continuously resist testifies to how much sexism there STILL is and that there hasn’t been that many inroads made. People speak out when they feel powerless, and they continue to unless real changes have been made (I am totally generalizing, but the point I’m making is clear, I think).
“Sikh girls are amongst the most vocal and opinionated I know. That is why I never get this thing about them being systematically oppressed. They are way too mouthy for that.â€
that’s because Sikh girls are being ‘systematically oppressed’ by Sikh aunties – that’s why! the auntiejies were mouthy young women at some point who are now in possession of full strength. (and young woman can’t diss auntie easily, usually is easier to wait till one is an auntieji oneself and do a bit of oppressing in turn)
replace ‘sikh’ with gujarati/bengali/punjabi/any subcontinent group and there you go. some social ‘intra-gender’ and intra-ethnolinguistic group dynamics feminists and others, ought to take note of.
“not least because it means the kids will get to see the India of NOW, the India that they would move to if they were so inclined, and not the nostalgic vision so often preached by older relatives.”
Yo, some 1-gers also have major identity issues. They are often trying to reconcile the India of 30 years ago (such as my parents) that they knew with living in America. And interestingly, I’ve met people who were not of South Asian descent living in South Asia for over a decade who know more about India than my parents because they’ve been living there, breathing it, etc everyday.
no. 7 Kelly. good point. yes loving accepting families on both sides is what you would need. otherwise, if you perceived one side of the family thought the “other” side were weird and bad then there would be a problem for the kids!
Amrit – stealth oppression. good term: I hear you! I call it ‘being let down by the sisters’. (and aunties)
Has everone truly failed to notice it is the middle-aged AUNTIES who go around making matches and forcing everyone ( their hen-pecked husbands included, and their precious young SONS) to do what they think is Right(because they went through it and they see their role as continuing traditions?)
Has everone truly failed to notice it is the middle-aged AUNTIES who go around making matches and forcing everyone ( their hen-pecked husbands included, and their precious young SONS) to do what they think is Right(because they went through it and they see their role as continuing traditions?)
Actually, I’m intrigued as to why Dalbir is stereotyping Sikh women. Sure, I’ve met some mouthy ones, but I’ve met some really mousy ones as well. And I’ve met aggressive, assertive, or forceful Gujarati women, Bengali women, Pakistani women, Persian women, Arab women, Mexican women, you name it…Is this part of the whole “Sikh women don’t take shit from no one” myth coupled with its counterpart “Punjabi men are the macho-est”?
Amen, Sonia!
Desi – Oh, I know; that’s something I’ve come to appreciate a bit more with my parents recently.
However, seeing things for yourself is something that I feel quite strongly about, because as you pointed out, it lets you decide what you are. Going to India last year, although I only went for three weeks or so, was a giant eye-opener. I was intrigued by both how different and how similar it was to what my parents had told us of it. Thank God I got to see it in its own right, is what I’m saying, I suppose!
Sonia:
“Has everone truly failed to notice it is the middle-aged AUNTIES who go around making matches and forcing everyone ( their hen-pecked husbands included, and their precious young SONS) to do what they think is Right(because they went through it and they see their role as continuing traditions?)”
Shit, Sonia, I’ve been trying to say that here for three years. THREE.
“As for that double life crap….shame on anyone doing that. Cowards. But don’t forget that plenty of blokes are doing it too. Why no hue and cry about them being oppressed? Have you not read Sathnam Sanghera’s book?”
heh, yes both young men and women are oppressed by family traditions, for some reason this is not noted (those misguided feminists again i suppose, wanting us to see it as a man vs. woman thing)
shame on anyone doing the double life thing – ha, i think you’ve just about condemned 99.9% of britain’s asian population.
Sonia – YES.
What I find really bizarre also is how so many Indians place a lot of value on education, but one can almost BET MONEY on the fact that the aunties doing the bossing within families are uneducated, or only partially educated.
Then again, if it’s education done Indian-style (read: to make money), I suppose it’s not necessarily going to open people’s minds any more than they are already.
Amrit and Desi – good points.. Its funny, i guess a lot of people like to think in terms of stereotypes. I’ve heard young Bengali men say ‘oh these Bengali women are too feisty’ and people will say that to me too because they know i’m bengali and they’re trying to say sth about me! ha ha
3 years Desi 3 years. Someone once wrote Ode to an Auntie on Sepia Mutiny, i remember, that was good.
Amrit – what i find most worrying is when i hear Aunties who are educated, work themselves, whose own mother-in-laws had said to their sons (i.e. husbands) dont marry girl x marry one from the village, (but husbands disobeyed). then they turn around and say to their sons that he is better off marrying a girl from the village so she will be more pliable! and listen to your mother!
“Then again, if it’s education done Indian-style (read: to make money)”
Hey, man, that’s gross generalizations. Sure there are Indians who go to school just to make money, but there are loads of Indians who took the harder route and have dedicated their lives to social work, grassroots movements, studying the social sciences and writing about it, and so on– all places where you don’t earn a lot of money.
And there are a bunch on non Indians who prefer making money over studying the ‘life of mind’. Like the non Desi peeps I went to school with as an undergrad, and were majoring in computer engineering or business and moaned about why they should give an eff about race relations in the US, and that they frankly don’t care.
——
Being opinionated doesn’t mean squat to be honest, if the families are still patriarchal and the men get more freedom.
——
This is the thing though. I understand what you are saying but my own, and plenty of other Sikhs experiences have been of matriarchal setups. I know that there is that patriarchal thing going on in the community but it is a plain lie to deny that plenty of white/English families don’t have that going on. I worked at a pretigious law firm once and from what I could see the majority of the bigwigs (upper middle class) had nice housewives at home. Some even had young oriental brides, probably because they were more submissive than English girls?
I doubt many of those conservative guys would approve of their own daughters adopting many of the perceived “Friday night” crass behaviours they would in all probability associate with common folk. But a Sikh man doing the same is an oppressor and backwards???
——
I think Sikh families are relatively liberal, but when it comes to the crunch – Punjabi males are still among the most sexist around.
——-
Really? More sexist than Afghans and other middle eastern folks? I disagree. I’ve met people with infinitely worse attitudes towards women than your average Punjabi Sikh male. Not saying all is rosey but surely the picture isn’t that bad? Sometimes I think people who have directly experienced the old school patriarchy way growing up think that it is the standard way SIkh families operate. This is a mistake on their part.
——
Fiona said:
It is unhealthy when girls are expected to be highly educated, well travelled, worldly yet not not sexually liberated, this kind of inconsistency creates problems.
——
Is this another way of saying “It is a shame they aren’t completely white in their behaviour and thinking?”
This problem exists because this society fails to truly embrace difference and tries to mould everyone in one generic form. It’s arguable that this is the real issue such females grapple with and the true source of the problem. The same way families, especially fathers are being accused of applying pressure on a girl to behave a particular way (usually labelled restricted), society itself cajools them implicitly to behave in a certain way (usually termed progressive.) This is why you get the extremes you noticed. It’s coercion, one way or another.
Desi -
Sorry, you are right, I’m getting bitter again. I’m thinking more of the immediate community around me which is a lot like that – whenever I tell people what I’m studying, I can see their brains shutting down about 80% of the time, because it won’t lead to a fixed job at the end of it.
That might be because it’s a very Punjabi community though… Is it a stereotype of Punjabis to be obsessed with money? I know that for ‘Jats’ it apparently is.
sonia:
‘Amrit – what i find most worrying is when i hear Aunties who are educated, work themselves, whose own mother-in-laws had said to their sons (i.e. husbands) dont marry girl x marry one from the village, (but husbands disobeyed). then they turn around and say to their sons that he is better off marrying a girl from the village so she will be more pliable! and listen to your mother!’
Another fine example of tradition warps the mind, I guess. I think that the lure of power is something that they get hopped up on. The only step towards improving that that I can think of is Indian boys having better relationships with their fathers…
Plus all you Asian girls. You know damn well the oppression of females is very often instigated by…yep…other (usually older) women themselves.
——
Actually, I’m intrigued as to why Dalbir is stereotyping Sikh women. Sure, I’ve met some mouthy ones, but I’ve met some really mousy ones as well.
——
Maybe because you notice the mouthy ones more….plus all the women in my family seem to be of this ilk! Very annoying. I feel oppressed myself.
Desi – no. 30. Interesting to hear your experiences and your response to my post.
I think i feel more tired out than he does!but yes he does get put in front of the grand jury, as you say – and that is i guess, largely to do with people’s perceptions that ‘letting one’s daughter marry a foreign man’ is unusual and ‘adventurous’ and must certainly require a large amount of compromise from aforementioned man. I also think it is because in ‘our’ culture, (heh) its so expected that a woman has to “assimilate” to the man’s side ( and this applies intra-’region’ so much!and all across the world, learn to cook like the mother-in-law
) that there is ‘concern’ that the girl has been – effectively ‘let out’! from our ‘standards’ and is not suitable or stringent enough a ‘guardian’. Especially when its seen as the control is going from one’s parents to one’s husband.
so i think in my case, its very much tied up with the wider community being concerned that I- as a Muslim Bengali girl – might be ‘leaving’ the fold because i have married a White Man! So it must be ‘ensured’ that Man in Question is seen to conform as much as possible, or reminded, that he is now a Muslim!
its more annoying for me, really, rather than for him. he is happy to make an effort, doesn’t mind passing as a Muslim male (ha keeps threatening he can now marry 3 other woman and has newfound rights!!;-)) eating lots of goodies.
the muslim thing in particular annoys me hugely, because it makes it highly difficult for me to carry on being as critical around my family as i used to be. while i was growing up in the middle east, while i was single, i could get away with saying things about ‘our’ religion without seeming to be a ‘traitor’. Now, I have married the ‘other side’ so i might be a traitor! i might be influenced! i might be losing my culture! now I am ‘married to the Other’ so i must Represent! I must ‘flip’ – become a good Muslim woman, and inculcate my man in my so-called religion.
very tiring I assure you, it would be easier to carry on with my militant questioning of the religion my family expects me to have, had i married some fellow who happened to be Born Muslim, (or a Mullah!) and therefore it was taken for granted he Believes.
amrit – interesting. about the indian boys and relationships with their fathers. I suppose that does play a big role – I was going to say more its about the relationships Indian boys have with their Mothers! but both are valid, they reinforce each other of course.
Boys -you need to stand up to your Mothers, bring home the girl you want, don’t worry if her complexion isn’t ‘wheatish’.
Heh. Dalbir – well i won’t say anything about YOU cos i obviously don’t know you. young asian men are a highly oppressed bunch, everyone knows this. Fool around with person x and then marry your cousin cos Momma told you so! Momma Momma Momma- she’ll dictate who you marry, if you marry someone else, she’ll make your life a BItch, that Pink Floyd song Mother sums up the Asian Maternal worshipping of Son – very nicely.
Mothers who internalise their self-hatred of being female, and glorification of MAn, and passing it on to their sons and daughters…play their role in perpetuating inequalities between genders and inequalities between generations. Call it patriarchy or matriarchy – both sets of parents are playing a key role.
Nice to see some open admissions on the role women play in this so called oppression.
Take that in your feminist pipe and smoke it….
ha ha!
Dalbir–
“Nice to see some open admissions on the role women play in this so called oppression.
Take that in your feminist pipe and smoke it….”
Like I said, I have been saying this for the past three years on PP, and hardly anyone commented. Apparently, it’s totally evil and wrong when men do it, but what gets overlooked is that some women are pretty much perpetuating this stuff willingly.
Dalbir:
“Maybe because you notice the mouthy ones more….plus all the women in my family seem to be of this ilk! ”
Actually, I am right now thinking of the Punjabi Sikh women from my Punjabi side of the family, and the loudest ones are actually the ones who very forcefully push for extremely traditional roles. I didn’t notice this until very recently, when I’ve been hanging around with them more often and I’m a bit older now. It’s very interesting– on the one hand, these aunties of mine seem the total opposite of the stereotype people have of Desi women (ie docile, submissive, etc), and they themselves say, “We don’t take shit lying down from anyone,” AND say that it’s tough being a woman, women should become self sufficient economically so they can take care of themselves blah blah, and yet, they turn around and do the oddest stuff w/r/t tradition, playing out gender assignments, etc. Just from my personal experiences, though.
I think it is white feminism trying to put a inter-gender wedge between ethnics myself (to bolster their own cause.)
Oppression like that is wrong. So is trying to portray ethnic men as the sole source of this.
The amount of times I have heard friends say their fathers were cool with them marrying x but their mothers causing a stir.
Portraying “asian” women as docile victims all the time (like you know who, like to do) is pretty nonsensical from where I’m standing too. It’s almost like some people have some ingrained self perception of themselves as saviours of ethnic women from the foul clutches of ethnic men. Takes the piss. Needs to stop.
You women could open your mouths a bit more about this too, you know.
#61 Snia:
“largely to do with people’s perceptions that ‘letting one’s daughter marry a foreign man’ is unusual and ‘adventurous’ and must certainly require a large amount of compromise from aforementioned man. I also think it is because in ‘our’ culture, (heh) its so expected that a woman has to “assimilate†to the man’s side ( and this applies intra-’region’ so much!and all across the world, learn to cook like the mother-in-law
)”
Good point and too true. I suppose that’s why it has to be double the effort when it comes to your husband? I mean, people usually assume that the woman will somehow naturally assimilate into her husband’s background, and that their kids will be South Asian or whatever. But for the man, it seems like the scrutiny is up way more.
“so i think in my case, its very much tied up with the wider community being concerned that I- as a Muslim Bengali girl – might be ‘leaving’ the fold because i have married a White Man!”
I admire your tenacity to keep going, because I would feel impelled to give a big middle finger to everyone else because I think it’s effed up. Honestly, what’s it to everyone else? It’s not their business! It’s so rude and disrespectful to pry into someone else’s background and identity like that, and if I were in your shoes, I’d be really defensive, thinking that they are also disrespecting my decisions, etc.
Eff off to the society (but admittedly, very hard to do sometimes).
well Desi i hear your personal experience! i’m seeing this with my mother. extremely mouthy character (ok so that’s where i inherited it from! Daddy is quiet as anything..)
I have 4 sisters: who is it who is trying to reinforce traditional roles on their daughters? My mother. Mind you – she isn’t all bad, compared to = who? My khala!! Culprit no. 1. All these women, they sit around and what to they complain about/? these ‘modern’ young women! how they are ever going to find their sons women – like THEMSELVES! unfortunately for my Poor Mother, who hasn’t got a son to marry off. Thank God i am female, i can’t imagine what pressure there would have been had i been a boy. sheesh, my Mother would have been the classic evil Mother-in-Law to any poor wife I might have had.
Shudders.
of course i try and understand. i think – women in the past have had fewer choices, (or zero, especially in matters of who they got married to) naturally to a certain extent they want to think those choices were good ones and want their kids to have the same experience, even if its not the best experience in the world. Or its just by the time you get older, you internalise that value system, and you become intellectually dishonest about the impact it has on people.
Well that’s the most charitable thing i can come up with. The other reasons are far more nasty and dark.
Sonia:
“the muslim thing in particular annoys me hugely, because it makes it highly difficult for me to carry on being as critical around my family as i used to be. while i was growing up in the middle east, while i was single, i could get away with saying things about ‘our’ religion without seeming to be a ‘traitor’. Now, I have married the ‘other side’ so i might be a traitor! i might be influenced! i might be losing my culture! now I am ‘married to the Other’ so i must Represent! I must ‘flip’ – become a good Muslim woman, and inculcate my man in my so-called religion.”
This, chokri, is very very interesting. The ‘traitor’ thing never occurred to me.
Dalbir:
“Oppression like that is wrong. So is trying to portray ethnic men as the sole source of this.”
Didn’t you say that certain ‘ethnic’ men (ie Afghan and Middle Eastern men) are more sexist than others?
“Really? More sexist than Afghans and other middle eastern folks? I disagree. I’ve met people with infinitely worse attitudes towards women than your average Punjabi Sikh male.”
Ok, one more wrong righted in the world….
It’s late I need to get to sleep. Take care.
I have heard Desi ladies, who have not had exposure to ‘feminist’ schools of thought–which is usually white, middle class women’s empowerment– use the ‘cultural’ argument to justify why ‘we’ Desi women should do X, Y, Z. “Because it’s in our culture, we are not like the Westerners. THIS IS OUR CULTURE.”
Desi
I was just commenting on Sunny’s comment about Panjabi men being some of the most sexist around.
I strongly disagree with this. There are much worse around.
yep Desi, this is really what bugs me now about my situation. especially since i have found out so much more about islam’s history recently and i really want to tax my parents with it.
I feel the need to talk more about it – better go dust off my blog
. It’s actually come up already with children’s names – not that i ever said i wanted to have kids, in fact my family know this – but one of the first things they said once they’d heard about tom – was, oh any kids better have a muslim first name! Given that I am called Sonia, and they bloody chose it, i thought this was a Bizarre thing. ! Had i said i was getting married to some bloke called Mohammed, i’m sure they wouldn’t have minded if i called my daughter ‘Julie’. or something. you get the gist. But, now, there will be big pressure for Fatima as a name choice..
Dalbir:
“I understand what you are saying but my own, and plenty of other Sikhs experiences have been of matriarchal setups”
1. There are also other non Sikh (why the emphasis on Sikhism, out of curiosity?) families where matriarchies rule, not just Punjabi Sikh families.
2. What makes you think matriarchal set-ups are more benign? Like I said, SOME of the pushiest women I know rule the house while indoctrinating their sons and daughters with all kinds of crap.
#72
So what can we conclude. That some white women use the feminist thing to try and recruit ethnic women to their cause and that some ethnic bibis exploit the FACT that they are not wmc women to preserve whatever it is they are trying to preserve?
I was just wondering if “asian” feminism is the same as white feminism. My very close African feminist friend feels that black feminism is different to the white equivalent because, according to her, “we have to deal with discrimination as females AND also discrimination because of our colour and that projected to our husbands and children from white supremecist sources”
She feels that white womens struggles are different to her own.
Dalbir:
“I was just commenting on Sunny’s comment about Panjabi men being some of the most sexist around.
I strongly disagree with this. There are much worse around.”
Well, there are SOME Punjabi men who are really, really sexist, but there are also some Punjabi men who are not.
I think it is fair and accurate to say that gender roles are very steeped in many societies to varying extents. Like in countries of South Asia and also, as you pointed out, in the UK with folks of Anglo background?
67- Desi, i’m glad you said that. Because I often feel i ought to be more patient and understanding ( and feel grateful I am allowed to live my life most of the time!) but i fail miserably. I always feel very defensive! this is why a trip #’home’ – was mildly annoying before, and infuriating now. Can’t go anywhere in peace! Last dec, we actually travelled around bangladesh on our own – and i had to REALLY fight my parents to escape. st. martin’s island was beautiful, but i was sick and tired of all the local interest and staring. Some people even suggested i might be ‘Indian’ because obviously no bangladeshi girl marries a “foreigner”! Just indian ones!
and who knows what would have happened if i started mouthing off about religion, when they asked about his religion, why should they assume I am a good muslim in the first place? i was under strict orders to not cause any more trouble ( heh
) but when it got to 7 year old boys preaching at me about how its good to ‘convert other people’ , and how bad and smelly Hindus are, I was really fed up.
And this business of ‘oh you must really try and not be in the sun, you so dark, your Husband won’t like your dark skin’. !!!??? WTF??? mY GOD don’t get me started on that. Ridiculous.
My plan for my next trip to Bangladesh: tom and I will both dress in full Burqa to wander around in impunity. It seems to be the only way!
Dalbir:
“She feels that white womens struggles are different to her own.”
My opinion is that mainstream feminism has come to mean white, MIDDLE CLASS feminism. Note the emphasis on middle class, it is very, very important.
While I agree that women of non white background have to contend with racism, and that in fact, one of the most oppressed groups on this globe is women who are not white, I also have to point out that what gets overlooked are women who are exploited but not of ‘color’. I am thinking about the poor and disadvantaged Eastern European women who are severely exploited in countries like Italy.
Re: feminism and looking at it beyond the white, middle class concept, read Chandra Mohanty. Smart person, she is.
#75
1) I don’t feel I can comment about others communities experiences like that and am just using my own reference points. I’m know others have the same thing going on. Regarding the emphasis on Sikhism, I’m not emphasising Sikhism, that is the religion. Personally I am probably more culturally Sikh. Don’t you know in the UK Sikh is a religious and ethnic label?
2) I don’t think they are more benign. I was just trying to highlight the fact that it is incorrect to assume all Panjabi families are patriarchal setups that oppress females. Often young women in such setups actually get better treatment than they would in a matriarchal one. That competitive streak between women can really take a nasty turn…woow..especially when a new younger women comes on the scene. The older one seems to feel compelled to exercise her authority with a vengeance…lol
You girls are crazy…
Dalbir:
“I was just wondering if “asian†feminism is the same as white feminism.”
Depends. I think it has to do with class, and asian middle class feminism might have a lot of overlap with white middle class feminism. I don’t think the discussion of feminism can be reduced to only race, there is much, much more than that.
dadlbir:
“You girls are crazy…”
Why are you saying “girls”? Do you think there are many ‘girls’ commenting on PP?
For anyone interested in going beyond the packaged white, middle-class feminism hailing from North America, read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Feminism-without-Borders-Decolonizing-Practicing/dp/0822330210
Kind of theoretical in some places, but really dead on.
Dalbir:
“That competitive streak between women can really take a nasty turn…woow..especially when a new younger women comes on the scene.”
Now I think you are trolling. Why are you stereotyping women as having that ‘competitive streak between women”???
Ok ladies then……
Desi, don’t discount or play down the impact of race on feminism. The way it looks to me is that many white men see the pretty ethnic women as eroticised creatures they must “save”
Hardly empowering. Besides, what kind of power is that which is given as a gift that can be revoked anytime? Real empowerment is self obtained.
—
Now I think you are trolling. Why are you stereotyping women as having that ‘competitive streak between women
—
Are you telling me you haven’t noticed this?
if you haven’t noticed the competitive streak, you’re living in la la land. buy yourself a Cosmopolitan!
actually there is a very good short story about this, i will go and look it up.
sounds like you are fetishizing colour Dalbair – “pretty ethnic women” ? So its all about the skin colour eh? Hmm. So much racism about. No – can’t be anything to do with invidiual personality – Nooo. Can’t get away between the link between ‘marriageablity and skin colour’ if you’re a woman eh?
Keep us in the right places, don’t let us escape!
Dalbir:
“Desi, don’t discount or play down the impact of race on feminism.”
I’m not, I’m just saying that there is also class involved. I said in my comment that I agree race has an impact on feminism?
“Real empowerment is self obtained.”
Sure, but the problem is that there are others who are continually taking away whatever ‘real empowerment’ someone strives for.
“Are you telling me you haven’t noticed this?”
Sure I have. But some men also have a competitive streak amongst themselves.
[...]
Ok, admittedly, I know more women who have a competitive streak than men do.
#88
You can go where you want. I don’t care. What do you think we are trying to herd you like cows?
Anyway I don’t subscribe to that skin colour marriageability thing (I know I spelt that wrong.)
Plus you still haven’t unpacked my previous post. I’m not doing the fetishising. I just think it may be going on. A remnant of colonial timess perhaps?
SOnia:
“Desi, i’m glad you said that. Because I often feel i ought to be more patient and understanding ( and feel grateful I am allowed to live my life most of the time!) but i fail miserably. I always feel very defensive!”
Dude, who wouldn’t get defensive? It’s only human nature, I think.
Why don’t you cleverly tell everyone off, without making it seem like you are telling them off? Like, when someone remarks about your husband, pretend you didn’t hear, and kindly ask about the crisis of rice these days and how much it sucks. Or when people say something about religion, remark how lovely it is to see the sun in Bangladesh, in contrast to London which is always gloomy.
“but when it got to 7 year old boys preaching at me about how its good to ‘convert other people’ , and how bad and smelly Hindus are, I was really fed up.”
To be honest, some of the Hindu sadhus ARE often grimy
“It’s actually come up already with children’s names – not that i ever said i wanted to have kids, in fact my family know this – but one of the first things they said once they’d heard about tom – was, oh any kids better have a muslim first name!”
Are you being serious. Doesn’t it make you angry that someone– even if it’s family– feels like they have the right to impose their preferences on how you run your life?
You could come to a comprise and pick a name that is pretty flexible but is still Muslim. Like Kabir. I know a Sikh who has that name, as well as a Hindu (Kabir, if I’m not mistaken, is a Muslim name; if I’m wrong, someone can correct me).
“I feel the need to talk more about it – better go dust off my blog
.”
Go do it; I’ll totally read it.
Dalbir:
“What do you think we are trying to herd you like cows?”
Maybe not, but you sure are branding women as ‘pretty ethnic women’ as you would to cows!
Dalbir:
“The way it looks to me is that many white men see the pretty ethnic women as eroticised creatures they must “save—
You don’t think that some ‘ethnic men’ think, “We have to save our women from white guys”? And looking at women as possessions, isn’t this wrong?
Dalbir:
“I was just trying to highlight the fact that it is incorrect to assume all Panjabi families are patriarchal setups that oppress females. Often young women in such setups actually get better treatment than they would in a matriarchal one ”
Er…right…
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a household where there wasn’t patriarchy nor matriarchy, but equal, and that kids internalized this.
Dalbir, i have read sathnam sangheras book, he talks of sikh women fighting so hard that they dont know when to stop.
Alot of the mouthy girs/women are pretty insecure inside, hence the great bravado. Sikh family situations have had a big part to play in this, from when these girls are young the process of the auntiejis starts.
Its not all about sexual liberation some of it is just plain equality.
#94 Both are wrong. I don’t have any problem with equality.
#95 I think this happens more often than is being suggested. But have you not seen patriarchal setups where the daughter is the spoilt princess? I’m not trying to justify patriarchalism, but merely saying this isn’t always a horrendous experience for girls. Besides people are mixing up conservatism with oppression. I’ve met umpteen families of all races such as Catholic Irish, Africans, Greeks who have this conservative thing going on with their daughters. Why is no one pulling them up for their oppressive sexism?
#96 Well at least we have debunked the myth that this is all the fault of men. No offence but sometimes, judging by some feminist posts, I sort of get the impression that they perceive women as helpless potential victims of male dominance. Like the Sikh women of Sathnam’s world, these feminists too are stuck in a cycle of constant battle against beastly men. They too, brutalised by their cognitions, flare up at any perceived male threat, whether it actually exists or not. Women, do have choices. It makes me sad to see women who sometimes have been treated rather shabbily by say in laws, turn around and revel in the doing the same thing years later. Surely this is plain bananas? Some simple reflection and tactful conversation between womenfolk is desperately required. Less of the male scapegoating please. It is really lame.
Dalbir, men and women have caused the problems, men are not innocent.
I doubt many of those conservative guys would approve of their own daughters adopting many of the perceived “Friday night†crass behaviours they would in all probability associate with common folk. But a Sikh man doing the same is an oppressor and backwards???
Dalbir, you’re comparing one set of sexist men with another and then asking me why I condemn the actions of one and not the others.
Anyway, women are not the property of men – so why just mention daughters adopting crass behaviour? Either its done to both sexes, or not at all.
Lastly, Punjabi men may not be as bad as village Afghani men in most circumstances, but that’s hardly an endorsement is it? I was talking about dominant male groups in the UK.
What about Afghan Sikh men?
Just throwing it out there…
for everyone going on about male oppression and how women, particularly domineering aunties can be “traitors”, i hope none of you read womens’ magazines; if you do, you’re contributing to your own oppression. i rarely tell mrs bananabrain what she can or can’t do (that really isn’t a sensible, safe or recommended strategy!) but on this one issue i laid down the law and, once she thought about it, she saw the logic in my conclusions:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/carol_midgley/article4471880.ece
b’shalom
bananabrain
Hi I did not realise that this subject would get such a big response. I would like to thank everyone with all their thoughts I will take in everything that has been said. Dorinda Sandhu
heh Desi, that’s good advice! I’ll store it up for the next visit.
dorinda..yep, i think it is going to become even more of a topic, everywhere in london there are ‘mixed up’ couples..