“I personally (and others may disagree) would think it was more important to push for the right to work before the right not to cover up.”

I agree, though I don’t think it necessarily wrong to fight state stipulations on dress for both men AND women.

its silly and that discussions around hijab and ‘feminism’ always go the same way, with very little understanding of social dynamics, group psychology, sociology, peer pressure.
the item of clothing is immaterial of course, its about the role of woman in society. and its not surprising different people have different views. those people who
follow the establishment/tradition/ will of course defend their right to choose to carry on those traditions. people who want to break with those traditions
will of course have different viewpoints and have opinions on the group structures that set up those traditions.

“I think that with the increasingly homogenised ‘McDonalds-isation’ of global culture, there can be a tendency to treat Western norms as if they were the only possible norms, the only ones that make sense, the only ones that deserve respect.”

I agree with this, though I think this is a bit western-centric. In non-western places, some people still do not treat or see western norms as default.

“It is, I think, a part of an anti-feminist mindset to focus on what women are wearing and not what they’re saying or doing or thinking. It disturbs me that, in the great ideological debate between religions and secularism (in which I have some sympathies on both sides, but I think religions have a lot to answer for in their treatment of women) yet another battle is being fought over the territory of women’s bodies”

Again, agreed completely.

“In moral terms, though: hair and breasts are both just parts of the body. We’ve all got a body, I can’t see that there’s any logical difference. The differences are cultural.”

With this, I also agree.

And I especially agreed with this:
Fundamentally, in the long hard road towards equality, I think that issues about what women wear are mostly side-notes. It is, I think, a part of an anti-feminist mindset to focus on what women are wearing and not what they’re saying or doing or thinking.

Well said.

You know, I don’t think that something I wrote has ever been subjected to this degree of scrutiny! But, for what it’s worth (and I’m aware that after ‘the death of the author’, my opinions probably aren’t so relevant), what I meant by the ‘topless’ comparison was the following.

Many societies around the world and at different periods in history have had different ideas about which parts of the body ought to be concealed in public. I’m no anthropologist, but just watching documentaries and reading about other cultures makes it clear that, in some cultures it’s no big deal for women to walk around totally naked. That’s not seen as “sexually provocative”, it’s just that the custom of the place is to wear some beads, maybe sandals or jewelry and nothing else. Chinua Achebe’s “Things Fall Apart” gives great examples of this. In the African culture he describes, it would be shameful for a woman to appear without her waist beads at a festival, but having bare breasts is entirely expected.

Modern Western culture has a different view. There are, of course, specific dress codes for specific places but in general Western culture says that a woman showing her bare breasts is a sexual display, while a man walking around with no top on when it’s hot is just a normal way to keep cool. [This is the case in London, where I live. If it is different in your region, I apologise for my London-centrism.]

This view is also reflected in, for example, the swimwear of male and female athletes at the Olympics. Men wear swimming shorts, women wear one-pieces which cover their breasts. Who knows if the women might perform better in just the shorts, or if both sexes might perform better totally nude? We’re not going to find out, because the athletes in these events must cover up the parts of the body which modern Western culture considers too overtly sexual to be displayed.

I think that with the increasingly homogenised ‘McDonalds-isation’ of global culture, there can be a tendency to treat Western norms as if they were the only possible norms, the only ones that make sense, the only ones that deserve respect. In doing this, we in the West ignore the fact that our culture has its own curiosities, its own pieces of faulty logic, and its own gender discrimination.

Morally, it is my absolute position that men and women are equal, should not be discriminated against by the law or individuals and have equal rights to determine the details of their own lives. In terms of culture, though… well, I think women in the UK have greater battles to fight towards equality than gaining the right to display their breasts in public (leaving aside the whole breastfeeding debate). And I could understand – and respect – an Egyptian or Bahraini woman who felt that it was more important for her to gain the right to compete in her chosen sport than to display her hair in public.

Fundamentally, in the long hard road towards equality, I think that issues about what women wear are mostly side-notes. It is, I think, a part of an anti-feminist mindset to focus on what women are wearing and not what they’re saying or doing or thinking. It disturbs me that, in the great ideological debate between religions and secularism (in which I have some sympathies on both sides, but I think religions have a lot to answer for in their treatment of women) yet another battle is being fought over the territory of women’s bodies. And when Western societies talk about excluding hijab-wearing women from education, or employment, or any other field of life, they’re discriminating, very specifically, against women.

So, is exposing your hair the same as exposing your breasts? In terms of the culture I live in, these two things are clearly different. Hair is coded as ‘an attractive feature’, bare breasts are coded as ‘an extremely sexual part of the body, only generally shown to a lover’. In moral terms, though: hair and breasts are both just parts of the body. We’ve all got a body, I can’t see that there’s any logical difference. The differences are cultural.

But Desi you said:
Don’t get irritated that some folks took a shoddily-written post (edited multiple times due to the comments section, might I add) and voiced their opinions on it.

I didn’t have a problem with what she wrote initially. If others didn’t think it was right, they can complain in the comments. This is a blog, not the New York Times. If I was her, I’d have ignored the comments and wrote carried on regardless. Some people taking blogging far too seriously.

anyway, thread closed.

Decidedly saner than this thread, which has been a waste of my life while I try to figure who is beefing on who and for what reason.

“It is slightly different to Copenhagen Syndrome, which is where on comes to believe one’s captors are actually cute mermaids.”

Thanks, I was reading the wiki link after I posted my comment but then got caught up with Douglas’ remark about ‘male domination’.

Now that I know what the Stockolm Syndrome is, I completely disagree with the commentator who said Ala suffers from it.

And now I will desist from commenting on a STUPID THREAD because I have been evacuated from the thread by Amrit.

STUPID THREAD ALERT. STUPID THREAD ALERT. VISITORS WILL BE EVACUATED TO THE HOMEPAGE WHERE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS ARE UP FOR DISCUSSION.

“If you can’t see your own complicity in subscribing to a male dominated agenda…You, quite ridiculously, see your submission to a male agenda as free will, when it is pretty obvious that it is in fact a ridiculously subservient point of view. ”

What the eff are you going on about? Do you really think it’s exclusively a ‘male dominated agenda’ to wear the headscarf? Do you not think that pressure (to either wear the headscarf or not) might not come from other females?

It’s a freaking headscarf. There are women in Sardegna and Sicily who still wear them. Greek women too. As someone mentioned all the way up, why no issue with these women wearing it except when it comes to women who are either of Arab background or a Muslim upbringing? Be consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

It is slightly different to Copenhagen Syndrome, which is where on comes to believe one’s captors are actually cute mermaids.

““You do, however, argue that the hijab is a matter of choice, as though it were a culturally free choice whereas it appears to me to be a culturally imposed choice.”

Duh– did you not read any of my comments talking about how a lot of stuff we do these days is ‘culturally imposed’? I already said this stuff, you’re addressing it to me as if it failed to register in my brain.

And w/r/t to following conformity, I expect that you walk around naked in Britain as well. ALL DAY TODAY. Shedding your clothes is a way of shedding the constraints of society, and if I find out that you didn’t do this, then I will be very, very, very disappointed in you.