The arguments against Churchill (and hence in favour of vandalising his statue) are almost certainly because to support one state against another state still leaves you with a winner: the state.

As Emma Goldman said in 1939:
“in a war between modern democracies and the Fascist powers, I do not believe that it makes much difference for the people involved who wins. The only difference is the difference between being shot and being hanged … Modern democracy is only Fascism in disguise. The liberties of the people are being constantly curtailed. The latest example is conscription in England. And, of course, the present preparation of another imperialistic war. The people always lose in such wars.”

Goldman believed that the successful eradication of fascism could only be achieved by the people themselves, and not by an external statist force such as an army. I’m inclined to agree with her – though for what it’s worth, I’m not particularly into vandalising statues myself. (Anyway, here’s an analysis of Anarchist opposition to wars and resistance in World War Two, which you might find interesting.)

But look all around us! Fascism is still very much here (even or perhaps “especially” in the UK) – it’s just being conducted in a less blatant, more cunning manner than Hitler’s approach to it – perhaps in part thanks to the advances of technology.

Did defeating Hitler eradicate fascism? Hardly!

On the surface, Britain is supposedly one of the most “free” countries on Earth. But look at what the state would like to get away with – and is often succeeding at almost unhindered. Just as Hitler gained dictatorial powers using largely legal means, the same is happening here today – just in smaller drips. Britain is perhaps the epitome of a modern fascist state – though of course, so effectively is it disguised that very few people would describe it as such!

Why bother with the dirty business of gassing people when you can control and tax them instead? Far more profitable and far less objectionable, as most people don’t even realise it’s going on, let alone that they are the ones doing it.

In our different roles in modern life, most people are both the oppressed and the oppressors, depending on context. That suits the state just fine, because most people are not prepared to fight against “themselves”, so the state generally wins easily.

Fascism doesn’t need to be as strong-arm in this day and age, and indeed, excessive strong-arm tactics have been it’s problem in the past. Modern fascism is generally far more cunning, and seems (to me at least) to work by co-opting and controlling by mind games and other tricks, rather than just marching in and controlling at gunpoint.

Of course, the heavy guns still come out when the mind games fail, but thanks to the mind games applied to the rest of society, they go relatively unnoticed.

Will we ever learn to recognise fascism properly, so we can eradicate it? I’m hopeful, but equally I’m not holding my breath! Many modern fascists and semi-fascists don’t even seem to realise that’s what they are.

It’s difficult enough to escape that even I (a self-professed anarchist, of the collectivist flavour of anarchism) am not 100% sure I’ve totally eradicated my own inner fascism. Is anyone? (I’ve encountered some remarkably fascist self-described “liberals” in my time, that’s for sure!)

Churchill got up to plenty in his day, and one doesn’t have to admire everything that he said or did. I just find it amusing that people go on a march and the centrepiece of their contribution is to vandalise a statue of Hitler’s greatest foe. It really does say it all.

Yeah terrible…

Funny thing about that incident. About a week or so after it the Guardian ran a piece which detailed an old news story about a bunch of teenages running amok in London acting like hooligans. One of them was Churchill.

I don’t idolise the old bastard and as a libertarian neither should you. Whatever happened to No Gods, No Masters?

Those were the days…

Yeah…they were…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/730000/images/_732983_churchill_closeup150.jpg

Still, I suppose he only fought fascism. He didn’t buy organic fair trade coffee from his local shop.

and I’ve been on enough protests to last a lifetime already. Am a veteran of the may-day protests.

Heh we must have bumped shoulders back in the day a few times then.

I remember the Mayday protest when they disfigured the statue of the man who had led the fight against Hitler. That seemed to sum up their mindset perfectly.

I hardly think putting some grass on a statue of Churchill (lovely little racist he was in his youth I might add) counts as disfiguring.

That is a big discrepancy.

As I’ve discussed with Sunny over email and I’ll repeat the sentiment here :

What is protest about ? Is it about alternative culture people earning their stripes and exchanging war stories to show how committed they are ? Or is about real change?

This is not furthering any agenda.

The actions of the FIT squad photographing violent protesters has stopped them coming back. It was a successful operation for them. They did the same thing with football violence (which they were invented for)

If anything they are a bit drunk with their own success and as you say, they think they can get away with anything in a zone designated section 60 or whatever it is. I spoke to their inventor (Barry Norman) when he was Islington Borough Commander. He is a very interesting fellow.

I thought black block made a huge mistake in this country focusing on Policemen and Police tactics and told them so at the time. If you are anti caplitalist your target for protest is extremist capitalists not their bloody footmen.

Petty. I knew somone was going to pick up on that. Is that all you can comment on?

Dave Bones #22:

I know what you mean about the FIT and keeping a sense of humour with them, but it isn’t just them, it’s the Met and riot cops as well as the random power-mad bobbies. So if it was me geting pressure-pointed, beaten bloody by a baton or having several knees in my back and on my neck- I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’d want to be smiling.

And the police state may have grown because of the excuse of the war on terror- but I think you’re mistaken if you think it’s just the Muslim population who now suffer for it- it’s all of us, albeit in varing degrees.

There may be individual cops who enjoy meting punishment on citizens they don’t like- but the orders and general culture come from higher up and it’s political. Like you said, they are told to be as much of a pain in the ass as possible, to dissuade people.
So if we don’t disobey, they’ve pretty much won.

I am not dismissive of Police action, but I am not really indignant about their behaviour either. They are just the FIT squad aren’t they. They are professional wankers. They can’t help it. If you hang around protest enough you get to know who is who. They are told to be as much of a pain in the ass as possible, hopefully disuading people from coming back.

The Police state isn’t for us, it is for Muslims, its just these individual coppers who are wankers and enjoy being so. Fuck em. I don’t care how many times they photograph me, I always try to smile and make sure they get my good side.

and I’ve been on enough protests to last a lifetime already. Am a veteran of the may-day protests.

In what our reporters have described as distressing scenes about 100 police have moved in to disperse a group of about 30-40 protesters who were refusing to be searched.

They have told us how for each protester there were six to seven police officers.

Maths obviously not a strong point.