The story on the other side of the border seems more complex than that. I’m pretty sure I have come across Sikhs with the Bhatt variation of the Pakistani Butt. In fact Hindus also have it. Remember the famous actress Poooja Bhatt. But you are right in that it is infinitely more common amongst Pakistanis than Sikhs.

What is interesting is that surnames(gots) which are considered Rajput by Pakistanis and very often considered Jat on the Indian side. Bhatti is an example of this as is Rathor. I’ve heard a few theories on why this is, but personally I believe that many Rajput converts to Sikhism adopted a Jat identity after conversion because it had higher status within that community whilst the converse was true in Muslim communities.

Regarding the origins. A bhatt was also the name of a traditional family record keeper or genealogist.

——-
According to Nesfield as quoted in W. Crooke, The Tribes and Castes of the North Western India, 1896, Bhatts are an “offshoot from those secularised Brahmans who frequented the courts of princes and the camps of warriors, recited their praises in public, and kept records of their genealogies.” These bards constantly attended upon or visited their patron families reciting panegyrics to them and receiving customary rewards. They also collected information about births, deaths and marriages in the families and recorded it in their scrolls. These scrolls containing information going back to several past centuries formed the valued part of the bards’ hereditary possessions.
———

Are these the ancestors of the Muslim Butts?

Now come surname Butt, well this is common in Pakistani punjab only, virtually absent from indian punjab. Most of the people who use surname Butt in Pakistan especially from central punjab region of pakistan are kashmiri immigrants in the region of pakistani punjab whose ancestors moved to cities like Rawalapindi, Jehlum, Gujrat, Gujranwala, Sialkot and Lahore about 200 hundred years ago because of famine in kashmir at that time.

As for as the meaning of Butt is considered, well Butt is derived from Sanskrit word “Bhat” which means religious Scholar of vedas. kashmiris pronounce it as Butt because in kashmiri language “Bh” changes to simple “B”. Moreover in Pakistani punjab kashmiri immigrants of diverse origins all use most of the time Butt as their common surname as an indicator of their kashmiri ancestory. I hope this help.

Anyone know why these names ? There aren’t loads of Pakistani Postlethwaites or Sutcliffes. Why Gill ? Why Butt ? What do they mean in Punjabi/Baluchi/Urdu/whateveri ?
–

Is Butt an English surname? There was a Pakistani boy with the surname Bhatti, when I was at secondary school. Back in those days all students were called by their surnames. Every time his name was called out in assembly, 300 odd boys would burst out in laughter (cruel bastards they were).

Later in life I was to meet lots of Sikhs with this same surname.

In answer to your question:

Gill and Butt are common surnames of Panjabi peasant (Jat) clans. These cross over the regions religious divides as historically some members of these clans converted to Islam and some to Sikhism whilst many remained Hindu.

Alot of Sikh Gills settled in India (many in Malwa, Punjab region where there are 40 Gill villages) but there are also Muslim Gills who may have come via Afghanistan/iran to india. The Gills geneology is linked to the Assyrian/Greeks via those of Alexander the Great’s entourage who settled in India (some in what is now Pakistan)

As to meaning of Gill there is a commonality in that:

Northern English, Middle English Gil and Old Norse Gil mean ‘ravine’ or ‘stream’ (The Old Norse personal name Gilli may lie behind the name in northern England). In modern English it means a fish gill

Similarly with a watery reference is Asian Gill(a) which means wet (or prosperity). There is a story that a rajput maharani’s child was left by a river bank and the child was refered to as Gilla/Gill thereafter.

For example, my Indian Bengali and Sylheti acquaintances complain that the Indian govt favours North India (Indo-Aryan racial stock) and Maharashtra/Mumbai more than South India (Indo-Dravidian racial stock) eg. Bangalore and the Eastern Seven sisters states. Hence internal migration to these economic hubs which leads to tension with locals eg. the anti-Bihari and Anti Bengali Assamese riots/bombings.

In Pakistan there are similar Balochi and Kashmiri complaints against the ruling Punjabis. In Bangladesh many Sylheti Bengalis are alienated from the state because of the lack of state support for the region.

I accept that my idea was naive.

It was supposed to be.

The point with being satirical is that it is supposed to be about taking the piss. When folk think you are being serious, you have failed, big time.

I am such a failure. @18, obviously, elsewhere, well you decide. Naomi Klein is much better at it than me.

two of the most common Lancastrian surnames, Gill and Butt, are also common among those of Pakistani descent. Gets very confusing when they then move to Lancashire.

Anyone know why these names ? There aren’t loads of Pakistani Postlethwaites or Sutcliffes. Why Gill ? Why Butt ? What do they mean in Punjabi/Baluchi/Urdu/whateveri ?

India and China were pretty much on par with the rest of the world a few hundred years ago. There’s no reason why they can’t do it again. It’s just that they have been too closed for the last few hundred years.

The civil servants of China (‘mandarins’) wanted to preserve tradition and ritual. The result was a massive stagnation in Chinese economic activity. Both India and China are now more open to the rest of the world and the markets. It is inevitable they will both rise but the degree and speed remains to be seen.

a) stop being such traditionalists
b) stop being so racist and divisive
c) therefore can stop being so anti-the concept of an equality of man

I fear your World Bank suggestion is a tad idealistic and somewhat naive though. (sorry) The World Bank isn’t really out to invest in these things…and if it did invest, it would be through some private investor who wouldnt be thinking about the public good.

Would you agree with me that the Chicago School is merely a way of entrenching wealth for the few and hang the poor? They seem to have had enormous influence on both the IMF and the World Bank and their prescription of Republican, right wing, US capitalism as the only solution, it seems to me, has caused nothing but grief. The trickle down approach to economics – not my specialist subject, I know – seems to me to be a busted flush. But, then again, I don’t actually have a specialist subject.

Oh, Naomi Klein seems to think that way too, and I haven’t even read ‘The Shock Doctrine’.

If there is evidence that Obama is buying into this doctrine, I’d be very worried. Is there?

Sorry to bring in a South Asian angle…

I haven’t looked into the pros and cons of hydro-electricity, but if I’m correct, if Nepal’s hydroelectric potential (one of the largest in the world) were properly harnessed and run in Nepal,there would be enough power for all of South Asia (Nepal currently taps around 0.3% of its potential). The problem is funds, infrastructure and sources to build hydroelectric plants.

Here are two links on energy in South Asia:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/nepal.html

http://www.ris.org.in/pbno8.pdf

Regional cooperation to meet needs of South Asia by focusing on hydro-power:

http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2079

This is a resource that is currently being wasted which I would have thought should get equal consideration to nuclear. I’d have thought it had the potential to be as important to the sub-continent as oil is to Arabia, with the added benefit that it won’t ever run out. Subject, of course, to stopping climate change.

A pick and mix energy policy from clean power sources ought to make sense. These are capital intensive at the construction stage but have, as I understand it, very low maintenance costs. In Scotland we’ve had hydro electricity generation for yonks and our mountains are like plooks compared to the Himalayas.

I wonder if schemes like these could attract investment capital, or seed capital from the World Bank?

question: what’s your personal opinion of the Chicago school and the impact it has had ?
and have you been following the recent discussion of Obama’s link to the Chicago boys?

China is a one party system. So the government doesn’t face any opposition in whatever action it takes. Being autocratic it isn’t particularly concerned about public opinion very much.

In India you have states governed by their own state government. I think what happens in a state is largely decided by the state government and not by the central government. This is where the quality of the state politicians plays a big role.

This is easier said than done. The central government in India does not have the kind of authority the central government in China or any other developed country has. India is a federation of states that differ in many ways than one. Add to this is a lot of unnecessary bureaucracy and corruption and it becomes very difficult to push forward any change in India.

Not sure what you mean by “kind of authority”, but it surely has the power to make these kind of changes, which are essential for India if it wants to continue with economic growth.

India’s biggest stumble is lack of vision, leadership, thinking big and ahead. Corruption and bureaucracy are just symptoms of this condition.

You need to improve education, health care and infrastructure. Until you improve those things the country will never reach its true potential.

That’s exactly what I said, and you replied with “Easier said than done”.

This is easier said than done. The central government in India does not have the kind of authority the central government in China or any other developed country has. India is a federation of states that differ in many ways than one. Add to this is a lot of unnecessary bureaucracy and corruption and it becomes very difficult to push forward any change in India.

In China the government rules with an iron fist. Anyone that offers resistance is likely to be pushed aside, but this is also China’s main flaw. The system doesn’t encourage pluralism and often the consequences can be failures of enormous scale (e.g. the Great Leap Forward).

In India rapid economic progress has largely been a result of the liberalisation process only started in the early nineties, but liberalisation by itself is not enough. You need to improve education, health care and infrastructure. Until you improve those things the country will never reach its true potential.

The way forward for India is continued economic growth. To achieve this it will require energy. At present this is coming from hydrocarbons. Nuclear would be an environmentally friendlier way of achieving this.

You also need to improve infrastructures, sanitary and health conditions and improve education at all levels.