I have always thought that most Pickled Politicians (is that right?) had more in common than they had apart. We might fight each other sometimes, but we definitely don’t hate each other.

That is a profound good.

Apart from the occasional guest post from the lunatic fringe, I have always felt pretty comfortable here. There are so many sensible voices that they tend to drown out the idiots.

At least, that’s what I think.

And you sir, count as a sensible voice. Just in case you were wondering….

Not a bad synopsis of Cohen’s stuff since 2003.

Or grieve over a few thousand troops that died, when at least a million Iraqis have been exterminated? That is relativism, big style.

I might have joined you. But I alighted when your lot, with Nick Cohen’s help, unconditionally supported Bush’s war on Iraq (though you’ll all probably deny it now), turn a blind eye and indeed advocate the US and UK’s use of torture, and the bombing of Lebanon in 2006.

Obama has made the unsubtle point that going after OBL and his spawn, ought to be the fucking point. The White house, under G W Bush took it’s eye off that agenda. And made a comlete fool of itself in the process.

I have never understood, in other than psychological terms, why we attacked Iraq. Sure, it was ‘unfinished business’ for the Bush ascendancy, it certainly wasn’t the only, or right method, of putting Saddam Hussein in a concrete waistcoat.

What the hell is the point of having the CIA if you don’t use them?

But that is irrelevant, really.

OBL declared that he’d done it. Bombed to bits the WTC, the Pentagon, etc. And the goon in the White House immediately moves the goal posts? What the hell is that about?

Iraq became tied into 9/11 when it had clearly nothing to do with it.

We have been lied to by senior politicians for far too long. Barak Obama is, at the very least, directing us back to the evil that is the philosophy of OBL. And pointing out to us what truth is.

Practically, he is right and the last eight years or so have been half truths, obfuscation and lies.

the main one being that the decision was made to essentially ignore Afghanistan and invade Iraq in a totally pointless endeavour.

One just have to be realistic about what can be achieved and how long it will take.

indeed, which is yet another reason not to have supported the Iraq invasion. Afghanistan would not be so fucked if our militaries had been fully focused on the Afghan conflict.

I agree. I just don’t think there is much willingness or committment to Afghanistan. We already shot ourselves in the foot by invading Iraq. We’ll have to see… if Obama does come into power, pulls out of Iraq soon and puts more energy into Afghanistan and brings together a wider coalition to sort out the country, its possible. But right now, the situation is very dire.

The idea that the focus was wrongly shifted to Iraq is not what is in question here. What is in question is whether Afghanistan is “fucked”. And it isn’t.
This is going to be a long long war, for many reasons.

I’d go much further and say that place is already lost, and the effort required to make it the kind of place Nick Cohen et al dreamed off, is far beyond what the West is willing to expend.

No, it was just a guess at Sunny’s views. I’ve yet to give my own.

Ben

We’re fucked in Afghanistan. Its basically a matter of withdrawal in a way that would ensure we don’t look like we messed up there, but the country isn’t likely to be the stable democracy that many were anxiously dreaming about. In fact, I’d be interested in any measurement to indicate how Afghanistan has ‘succeeded’. Just because you’re not reading about it doesn’t mean its going fine and dandy.

by deciding to move most of the troops out of there and into Iraq.

“Fucked up Afghanistan? How?”

I think Sunny means that, nearly seven years into the conflict, Coalition forces still manage to bomb wedding parties:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/afghanistan.usa

Ben