I think everyone could do with that freedom, female or otherwise. ”
can be taken in two ways. I assumed that the supposition was that it was possible to question faith unconditionally and absolutely without a greater likelihood of the questioner rejecting it. In that case it is foolish or dishonest to make that claim. However if- as Ala, you and Ms Xtreme seem to think- it means that people should only be allowed to question their faith if the questions they ask are questions that cannot lead to their rejecting it, it isn’t much of a freedom at all, even if it possible to ensure that questioning can be so restricted.

Religion may “not come from scriptures, but from its interpretation”, but the interpretation depends on the scripture being there in the first place and is dependent on what the scripture says. In tha case of islam, which purports to rely on the absolute, exact and final word of god, there is even less room for interpretation than with other scriptures.

Again, I don’t say that questioning faith does not mean rejecting it all together.

So, unlike what you said in #6 and #7, it’s not a foolish or dishonest thing to say that questioning faith or having the freedom to do so, does not mean rejecting the religion. Incidentally, religion does not come from scriptures, but from its interpretation…

I say some women choose this, because they do; my mother, my sister, my aunt, they all choose to live by these rules. I don’t.

And yes, freedom of religion entails every religion, even the religion of no religion.

“As for questioning the actual doctrinal framing of a woman’s status, it must be remembered that these doctrines are accepted and revered, by men and women alike, as abhorrent as they may seem to some.”

Now. Now. Muslim women arent in a position to make these kinds of statements considering that they all suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. I suggest they pipe down until they recieve their script in the mail from the proper authorities.

Me Xtreme: I don’t deny that “more people who research their religion to gain a better understanding of it rather than people looking to find excuses to leave it.” I do say that people who question or research their religion- not always the same thing- are more likely to change what they believe or the way they believe it, especially if their research leads them outside their religion’s parameters.

“My sweeping comment is that anyone who questions religion is more likely to either change or reject their religion or to change the way they interpret it.”

So, you admit that questioning faith does not mean rejecting it all together: this contradicts what you said in #6.

Precisely where in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions do they “give you the freedom FROM religion”?

…a secular democracy committed to preserving the religious freedoms of individuals.

Yes, I could be a fundamentalist for that.

I guess that’s something we could all agree on regardless of our beliefs: a political system that provides us both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.

I know more people who research their religion to gain a better understanding of it rather than people looking to find excuses to leave it.

Yes, I could be a fundamentalist for that.

It is either foolish or dishonest to say “We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it.” Questioning a faith often leads to changing it or rejecting it.

Not really. It can also lead to reform. Ever hear about the protestant reform? It was a direct challenge of the power of the Catholic Church, it wasn’t a challenge to the core faith.

”
…all the Abrahamic religions give you the freedom FROM religion.

I don’t doubt you could find a few verses to sustain that point, but history and a whole lot more scripture dispute it.”

What gives you freedom of religion is a secular democracy committed to preserving the religious freedoms of individuals. Any other political system trumps those freedoms regardless of being related to the Abrahamic faith, or even inspired by faith.

Really? I suppose there are a myriad ways of regarding religion, but if you reach the point of asking whether your religion suits your life, rather than your life suiting your religion, then it seems to me you have passed a major milestone. If you can sit back and objectively ask, ‘Does this suit my life?’ isn’t that
already rejecting the claims of the belief system in question?

…all the Abrahamic religions give you the freedom FROM religion.

I don’t doubt you could find a few verses to sustain that point, but history and a whole lot more scripture dispute it.

The fact is tradition or religion is not going to be fair to women unless its influence is limited like in secular societies with equality guaranteed by rule of law.

The social pressures are more difficult to address and secular spaces where the influence of religion is limited or has dissipated help. Other dynamics like joint family, nuclear family, village, city, education, awareness, the attitudes of the senior members of the family, community have an impact.

Any religion or tradition bound society is going to have women deprived of rights either legally or through social pressures. Notice the recent shenanigans with the polygamous cults in the US that have male dominated hierarchies with the women completely and willingly subjugated and where the young men are ejected from the communities so that the older men can be polygamous and have wives as young as 14.

Currently this is seen more in countries that are bound by religious law and in the modern world only muslim countries that implement sharia fall in that category where leaving aside the social pressure side of it, the law of the land backs the discrimination. Individual women cannot fight this, you have no choice but to accept it. Saudi Arabia stands out in particular, whether its because of religion or their interpretation of it doesn’t matter, on the ground women do not have anything approaching equal rights.

Now here we can go in to the quagmire of relativism, obfuscation and red herrings and question things like equality, ‘western’ standards, modernity and further confuse the issue with ‘morality’, culture and ‘values’ but that is a quick and easy way to maintain status quo and keep women suppressed.

Your statement about me is also inaccurate. I put out questions, and seek answers within the doctrines. Not from a religious talking heads like others have done.

Italiana, all the Abrahamic religions give you the freedom FROM religion. Its in the scripture, sometimes repeatedly.

What? How so?”

Well, I’ve never known of someone rejecting their faith without questioning it, Ms Xtreme. Even soup protestants questioned the ability of roman catholicism to feed them in a famine.

For people brought up entirely within a religion believing that religion is as natural as breathing. The moment when they begin to question varies, but the very fact that they no lnger believe unquestioningly means they think about their religion’s claims. I don’t think your claim that “I question my religion freely and openly as much as I please. I have not been ostracized as of yet.” is accurate. You aren’t questioning your religion if you put your questions and accept answers in the terms and context of that religion. You’re not quite as securely fixed as the person who cannot think outside the religion’s context but you’ve a long way to go.

“doctrines such as having to have a male guardian who can decide whom you can marry, having to obey your parents in all matters except if they tell you to do something against the religion, having to obey your husband, and the latter’s permissibility to hit you as a last resort if he fears disloyalty. A lot of Muslim women are fine with this.”

The ideas you outline above are not by any means Muslim-centric. There are women of other religious backgrounds, such as Hindu and Sikh, who abide by the same diktats.

And lastly, I haven’t met any female victims who are ‘fine’ with these ideologies and entailing abuse (note ‘victims’, and not female relatives, who seem to condone this abuse).

“everyone is supposed to have freedom of religion, ”

Everyone is supposed to have freedom FROM religion as well!

LOL @ damsels in distress. Depends on which angle you’re looking at it. We of the West can look into Afghanistan and categorize them as damsels – when they look at us in a similar way.

Its a matter of perception. We in the West choose to live our life a certain way – for us to think this is what others want as well is a bit off.

Having said all that though – I agree with your position that in some communities – ie Bradford, Southall – there are large groups of Muslims who do not give women even the basic human rights that they are entitled to. They tend to group it under the religious umbrella – that is why your article even brings up religion.

The culture is buggered. I agree. They can use some self empowerment sessions – I agree.

All I’m calling for is more help for people who feel stuck in parallel communities, religious ones or otherwise. Muslim communities are a topical example; Muslim women, lucky for us, are high on the priority list of damsels in distress. It might only be a matter of time before they’re relegated, so until then, they could do with more help.