Freedom of religion will free Muslim women
One of the world’s favourite topics by far, for many good and some unsavoury reasons, was raised by Nesrine Malik’s latest article on comment is free. She gives her take on the discussion of women and Islam at IslamExpo.
Her main point was,
We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it.
I think everyone could do with that freedom, female or otherwise. There is a profound lack of self-criticism and openness in Muslim socities that is really a whole other kettle of fish.
As for individual rights, I say create avenues for people in Muslim communities to freely reject religious diktats without fearing for their lives or wellbeing. Of course, not without fearing ostracisation, that goes without saying, and there’s nothing that can be done about that.
Unfortunately, nothing can be done to allay people’s homocidal tendencies until they have been fulfilled (or at least hard evidence has been found that they are going to be fulfilled). But in areas where ghettoisation has created an impossible environment to think differently or leave, local government can work on funding refuges, for women and men alike. That would be my answer to the question of liberating Muslim women.
As for questioning the actual doctrinal framing of a woman’s status, it must be remembered that these doctrines are accepted and revered, by men and women alike, as abhorrent as they may seem to some. No one is going to accept the overhaul of what they see as sacrosanct by a bunch of liberal lefties. That might just turn out to be a wasted effort. What wouldn’t be a wasted effort is to tell people born to Muslim families that they have the choice of rejecting things they don’t like, and that if they do, they don’t have to fear for their lives.
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Filed in: Cultural Relativism, Religion, Sex equality
Good point, but how does one achieve that?
The only thing that stood out to me in this entire article was:
She believes there is a Western assumption that Muslim women are subjugated, which is attributed to Islam – a non sequiteur in her view, since while Muslim women do need to be liberated, it is not from the religion but from their indigenous culture.
Hallelujah! A lot of ignorant people out in the world do not seem to understand this concept. I completely agree with her later in the article about how men chose to alter certain beliefs after the Quran arrived to backtrack all the freedoms it gave women. It still happens today!
However – I didn’t like when she said that Quran has “questionable texts” then provided a link to Wiki! That’s pretty daft don’t you think? Wiki can’t be used as a source for that purpose. Its a scapegoat because nothing else was found.
As for individual rights, I say create avenues for people in Muslim communities to freely reject religious diktats without fearing for their lives or wellbeing.
What? What country do you live in? Us living here in the West have gotten more freedom in doing this than anywhere else! I understand this is an open wound in most other Muslim countries – but to throw out the progress we have made in the West in this regard is unfair.
What wouldn’t be a wasted effort is to tell people born to Muslim families that they have the choice of rejecting things they don’t like, and that if they do, they don’t have to fear for their lives.
The belief in the Quran already gives us that right. Rather or not people choose to adhere or even acknowledge it isn’t the problem of the religion.
ms Xtreme, I didn’t say the problem was within the religion, but the fact is that on the ground, most Muslims don’t feel this way, and I’m talking somewhat from experience. Muslims in the West are freer than they are in Muslim countries, but they still live somewhat parallel lives in their communities. They can’t be different without being noticed, and when they’re noticed they may well feel unsafe, which is the problem that has to be tackled.
Rumbold, I suggested refuges for a start. Women’s refuges are a godsend for those fleeing domestic violence. They could work for those fleeing other constraints and pressures.
There’s nothing to disagree here with!
As for questioning the actual doctrinal framing of a woman’s status, it must be remembered that these doctrines are accepted and revered, by men and women alike, as abhorrent as they may seem to some.
which doctrines specifically do you mean Ala?
Ala,
Interesting article. I’d question this, however:
As far as I remember, when I first rejected Christianity, my parents who were both nominal Christians, didn’t ostracise me. Why should it be any different in a Muslim family? It is, I would suggest, be an acceptance of community values over family values. Which is pretty negative.
Correct me if I am wrong.
It is either foolish or dishonest to say “We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it.” Questioning a faith often leads to changing it or rejecting it. Again, “while Muslim women do need to be liberated, it is not from the religion but from their indigenous culture”; after several hundred years the religion and its interpretation has become an integral part of their indigenous culture.
“No one is going to accept the overhaul of what they see as sacrosanct by a bunch of liberal lefties. ” Perfectly true; however, the fact that some people see beliefs and practises as sacrosanct does not mean that other people- liberal, lefty or otherwise- have to pretend they also think them sacrosanct, as some not-so-liberal lefties seem to.
Sorry, brevity led to ambiguity:
It is either foolish or dishonest to say “We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it.” Questioning a faith often leads to changing it or rejecting it. Even if the questioner does not reject or consciously change the faith the very act of questioning means that the faith and they way it is held have changed.
As a Muslim apostate let me tell Ms Xtreme to go to faithfreedom.org or other sites that criticize Islam and the pedophile megalomaniac formerly bandit and latterly assassin Prophet Mohammad (oh, PBUH, before they kill me) and stop the rubbish.
You have a very simplistic view of Islam and irrationally believe that it is Muslims who are the bad guys and who are giving Islam a bad name. This is very racist.
Instead drop the nonsense about prophesy and Angel Gabriel claptrap and walkie talkie to Allah (via AG) and infalliability of Qor’an and smell the coffee.
Its amazing how supposedly “atheist leftists” on this blog go along with this rubbish about Allah and Gabriel and Mohammad the epileptic (go read some brain science and discover the relationship between epilepsy and religiousity – but of course most of you failed math and science – so no dice).
Shame on you leftists who go along with religious crap in your quest to destroy liberalism, freedoms, democracy, and enlightenment in the name of cheap and idealistic “compassion for the poor”.
Gohe sag tu dhaneh har chi chapi rasooli hast keh reedam tu koone peyqambar gohkhordeye koskesh.
Sunny, doctrines such as having to have a male guardian who can decide whom you can marry, having to obey your parents in all matters except if they tell you to do something against the religion, having to obey your husband, and the latter’s permissibility to hit you as a last resort if he fears disloyalty. A lot of Muslim women are fine with this. I say they should be allowed to choose that if they wish, as well as being given the option not to, of course.
Douglas, I dare say a Christian man changing his faith is not as grave as a Muslim woman doing so. A woman can’t do these things without also causing a scandal. That’s the best she could hope for.
While in theory, everyone is supposed to have freedom of religion, in practise, it’s difficult for anyone to act on it, especially women.
Ala, I never did disagree that Western Muslim women lived parallel lives to those that live in Muslim countries. However, I do disagree that they’re stuck in that paradigm forever – which simply isn’t true. I became a Westerner at 1 – but I question my religion freely and openly as much as I please. I have not been ostracized as of yet.
Questioning a faith often leads to changing it or rejecting it.
What? How so?
Hamid, I won’t even dance with you. You’ve obviously made it a habit of talking out of your arse here on Pickled Politics.
Ala, regarding your last post – the doctrines you are referring to where the specificities of the religious guidelines in the Quran are the hadith. There’s contradictions of some hadith against the Quran. They’re so blatant that you cannot miss them. I understand that for Muslims this doctrine is held in high regard, in some illiterate countries even higher than the Quran itself. However, I assure you, that is not how the religion is meant to be practiced.
Also, I think you lean more on the gender inequalities within communities rather than religious ones. The line is a bit blurry. Gender inequalities exist in EVERY society. Some more graver than the other. I’m not justifying the behaviour – no way – but its a bit premature to be blaming the full spectrum of gender inequality on one religion without seeing it for what it really is.
Interesting points you have none-the-less.
Ms xtreme, I am not for one second blaming a religion, I don’t know why you keep saying that. When I say Muslim communities, I am talking about the very real communities that me and you live in. They are a compsite of many social factors, religion being just one of them. The fact that Islam isn’t ‘meant’ to be practised this way is totally irrelevant to the reality in these communities, and I’m not blaming religion for that, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
All I’m calling for is more help for people who feel stuck in parallel communities, religious ones or otherwise. Muslim communities are a topical example; Muslim women, lucky for us, are high on the priority list of damsels in distress. It might only be a matter of time before they’re relegated, so until then, they could do with more help.
I guess I’m reacting because most people DO in fact blame it on the religion. Rightly so, there’s numerous hadiths that retract the rights that the Quran gives to women. And if they don’t retract them – they put limitations on them. Its part of the religion some will argue.
LOL @ damsels in distress. Depends on which angle you’re looking at it. We of the West can look into Afghanistan and categorize them as damsels – when they look at us in a similar way.
Its a matter of perception. We in the West choose to live our life a certain way – for us to think this is what others want as well is a bit off.
Having said all that though – I agree with your position that in some communities – ie Bradford, Southall – there are large groups of Muslims who do not give women even the basic human rights that they are entitled to. They tend to group it under the religious umbrella – that is why your article even brings up religion.
The culture is buggered. I agree. They can use some self empowerment sessions – I agree.
Ala:
“doctrines such as having to have a male guardian who can decide whom you can marry, having to obey your parents in all matters except if they tell you to do something against the religion, having to obey your husband, and the latter’s permissibility to hit you as a last resort if he fears disloyalty. A lot of Muslim women are fine with this.”
The ideas you outline above are not by any means Muslim-centric. There are women of other religious backgrounds, such as Hindu and Sikh, who abide by the same diktats.
And lastly, I haven’t met any female victims who are ‘fine’ with these ideologies and entailing abuse (note ‘victims’, and not female relatives, who seem to condone this abuse).
“everyone is supposed to have freedom of religion, ”
Everyone is supposed to have freedom FROM religion as well!
“Questioning a faith often leads to changing it or rejecting it.
What? How so?”
Well, I’ve never known of someone rejecting their faith without questioning it, Ms Xtreme. Even soup protestants questioned the ability of roman catholicism to feed them in a famine.
For people brought up entirely within a religion believing that religion is as natural as breathing. The moment when they begin to question varies, but the very fact that they no lnger believe unquestioningly means they think about their religion’s claims. I don’t think your claim that “I question my religion freely and openly as much as I please. I have not been ostracized as of yet.” is accurate. You aren’t questioning your religion if you put your questions and accept answers in the terms and context of that religion. You’re not quite as securely fixed as the person who cannot think outside the religion’s context but you’ve a long way to go.
You, Roger, made a sweeping comment about anyone who questions religion is doing so as a means to change or reject it. I don’t think that’s accurate. A better sweeping statement would be that people question their religion to better understand it. At which point they can decide if it suits their life or not.
Your statement about me is also inaccurate. I put out questions, and seek answers within the doctrines. Not from a religious talking heads like others have done.
Italiana, all the Abrahamic religions give you the freedom FROM religion. Its in the scripture, sometimes repeatedly.
Desi – they may not be muslim centric but in the modern world only muslim countries ruled by sharia support this discrimination by law. The sikh, hindu and other women you mentioned fall victim to social pressures and regressive attitudes, that fight is hard enough in conservative societies, to have it backed by law makes it nearly impossible for individual women to fight for equality.
The fact is tradition or religion is not going to be fair to women unless its influence is limited like in secular societies with equality guaranteed by rule of law.
The social pressures are more difficult to address and secular spaces where the influence of religion is limited or has dissipated help. Other dynamics like joint family, nuclear family, village, city, education, awareness, the attitudes of the senior members of the family, community have an impact.
Any religion or tradition bound society is going to have women deprived of rights either legally or through social pressures. Notice the recent shenanigans with the polygamous cults in the US that have male dominated hierarchies with the women completely and willingly subjugated and where the young men are ejected from the communities so that the older men can be polygamous and have wives as young as 14.
Currently this is seen more in countries that are bound by religious law and in the modern world only muslim countries that implement sharia fall in that category where leaving aside the social pressure side of it, the law of the land backs the discrimination. Individual women cannot fight this, you have no choice but to accept it. Saudi Arabia stands out in particular, whether its because of religion or their interpretation of it doesn’t matter, on the ground women do not have anything approaching equal rights.
Now here we can go in to the quagmire of relativism, obfuscation and red herrings and question things like equality, ‘western’ standards, modernity and further confuse the issue with ‘morality’, culture and ‘values’ but that is a quick and easy way to maintain status quo and keep women suppressed.
…people question their religion to better understand it. At which point they can decide if it suits their life or not.
Really? I suppose there are a myriad ways of regarding religion, but if you reach the point of asking whether your religion suits your life, rather than your life suiting your religion, then it seems to me you have passed a major milestone. If you can sit back and objectively ask, ‘Does this suit my life?’ isn’t that
already rejecting the claims of the belief system in question?
…all the Abrahamic religions give you the freedom FROM religion.
I don’t doubt you could find a few verses to sustain that point, but history and a whole lot more scripture dispute it.
What gives you freedom of religion is a secular democracy committed to preserving the religious freedoms of individuals. Any other political system trumps those freedoms regardless of being related to the Abrahamic faith, or even inspired by faith.
Not really. It can also lead to reform. Ever hear about the protestant reform? It was a direct challenge of the power of the Catholic Church, it wasn’t a challenge to the core faith.
…a secular democracy committed to preserving the religious freedoms of individuals.
Yes, I could be a fundamentalist for that.
Aw shucks, Ravi got there before me.
I know more people who research their religion to gain a better understanding of it rather than people looking to find excuses to leave it.
I guess that’s something we could all agree on regardless of our beliefs: a political system that provides us both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.
No, Ms Xtreme,my “sweeping comment” is not “about anyone who questions religion is doing so as a means to change or reject it.” My sweeping comment is that anyone who questions religion is more likely to either change or reject their religion or to change the way they interpret it. You yourself admit as much when you say “I put out questions, and seek answers within the doctrines. Not from a religious talking heads like others have done.” Your interpretation of the doctrines differs from that of some of the “talking heads”. The fact that you are aware your religion has doctrines rather than being naturally and obviously true means you have moved a little away from the “talking heads”. The fact that all of your questions can be answered within the doctrines is evidence that you are still at an early stage of questioning.
Precisely where in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions do they “give you the freedom FROM religion”?
So, you admit that questioning faith does not mean rejecting it all together: this contradicts what you said in #6.
Ravi Naik: “Not really. It can also lead to reform. Ever hear about the protestant reform? It was a direct challenge of the power of the Catholic Church, it wasn’t a challenge to the core faith.”
What is a reform but a change to the faith as well as the believer? That’s why I said “Even if the questioner does not reject or consciously change the faith the very act of questioning means that the faith and they way it is held have changed.” That’s leaving aside the question of what is the core faith- the importance of the church as an intermediary and a means of communicating between god and man is part of the core faith of roman catholicism; the iimportance of direct communication between god and man is part of the core faith of many foorms of protestantism. After all, the core faith of judaism, christianity and islam rests on the story of Abraham, but the differences between them are as much part of each religions core faith as that.
Me Xtreme: I don’t deny that “more people who research their religion to gain a better understanding of it rather than people looking to find excuses to leave it.” I do say that people who question or research their religion- not always the same thing- are more likely to change what they believe or the way they believe it, especially if their research leads them outside their religion’s parameters.
“So, you admit that questioning faith does not mean rejecting it all together: this contradicts what you said in #6.”
PErhaps you ought to read #7.
Again, I don’t say that questioning faith does not mean rejecting it all together. I do say that it is impossible for someone to reject faith until they’ve begun questioning it.
Ala,
“As for questioning the actual doctrinal framing of a woman’s status, it must be remembered that these doctrines are accepted and revered, by men and women alike, as abhorrent as they may seem to some.”
Now. Now. Muslim women arent in a position to make these kinds of statements considering that they all suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. I suggest they pipe down until they recieve their script in the mail from the proper authorities.
desi, of course these practises aren’t exclusive to Muslims, but we’re talking about Muslim women here.
I say some women choose this, because they do; my mother, my sister, my aunt, they all choose to live by these rules. I don’t.
And yes, freedom of religion entails every religion, even the religion of no religion.
So, unlike what you said in #6 and #7, it’s not a foolish or dishonest thing to say that questioning faith or having the freedom to do so, does not mean rejecting the religion. Incidentally, religion does not come from scriptures, but from its interpretation…
The claim “‘We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it.’
I think everyone could do with that freedom, female or otherwise. ”
can be taken in two ways. I assumed that the supposition was that it was possible to question faith unconditionally and absolutely without a greater likelihood of the questioner rejecting it. In that case it is foolish or dishonest to make that claim. However if- as Ala, you and Ms Xtreme seem to think- it means that people should only be allowed to question their faith if the questions they ask are questions that cannot lead to their rejecting it, it isn’t much of a freedom at all, even if it possible to ensure that questioning can be so restricted.
Religion may “not come from scriptures, but from its interpretation”, but the interpretation depends on the scripture being there in the first place and is dependent on what the scripture says. In tha case of islam, which purports to rely on the absolute, exact and final word of god, there is even less room for interpretation than with other scriptures.