every western country where the state is liberal the muslims are basically hedonists and not terrorists

take canada

muslim girls are mostly focused on looking hot and muslim guys are mostly focused on chasing ass

You wouldn’t say

“Oh dear, perhaps they have a point, better not say anything to disparage Nick Griffin … if they’re having a rally I should go along to show that I’m not TOTALLY opposed to them”

Actually i would; well after a fashion.

I wouldn’t attend one of their ‘rallys’ but then i don’t attend anyone elses ‘rallys’ either (demonstrations stopped being an effective political tool half a century ago). But i certainly wouldn’t have any objection to finding out about and trying to empathise with the problems that were alienating BNP supporters. I made a similar point in relation to the fuss over the ‘BNP ballerina’; disparaging and humiliating her wouldn’t allow any kind of connection to be made to deal with the fear or hate she was feeling.

The Good Friday agreement didn’t come about by people steadfastly refusing to have anything to do with each other. Choosing to ignore or dismissing out of hand a particular philosophy or ideology is just juvenile.

http://islamic-considerations.blogspot.com/

“I can’t stand this indecision married with a lack of vision
everybody wants to rule the world..”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOA4ixV-3jU

The JI and it’s terrorist offshoot, the Taliban-like militia JMB, regard *themselves* as Salafi and “Ahle-Hadith”.

The Saudis and Kuwaitis are funding these organisations they happen to share dogmatic interpretation. Not because as you like to claim, they happen to “have little regard for how the money is used”. If that’s what Birt says then either he is deeply mistaken or he is being misrepresented or he is lying.

And I quote again:

The Kuwaiti Revival Islamic Heritage Society (RIHS), a financier of the JMB, is an international organization that has succeeded in spreading Whabbism within numerous Muslim countries.48 Funds from the RIHS have aided in the construction of “…1,000 mosques, 10 madrassas, four orphanage-cum- madrassas, and a kidney dialysis centre across the country. The mosques and madrassas were later proved to be centers of
militant activities of the JMB.”49 In 2005, more evidence of foreign links to Bangladeshi militant Islam came to light with the arrest of Maolana Abu Noman Muhammad Amanullah, who admitted to having direct links to the 17 August 2005 nationwide bombings; Amanullah was an Imam of the RIHS-funded Ahle Hadith mosque at Andariapara.50 In 2002, US Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neil placed both a criminal and international jihadist tag on the RIHS. The Treasury Department held that the RIHS ”had been stealing from widows and orphans to fund al-Qaeda terrorism”.51 This led the US Department of State to blacklist the RIHS on 9 September 2002 for providing financial assistance to Islamist terrorists.

Seems to me that you are claiming these Saudi funders to be pretty stupid if they’re funding so many initiatives without regard to how the money is being spent or by whom! The point is, this claim to “ignorance” is a pretty shoddy excuse.

After highlighting the excess of your Sufi brethren you agreed that you needed to be more specific when discussing creeds and said you would clarify more in future. If you can’t be bothered to write fairly then that reflects poorly upon you.

I accepted then and I accept now your word of the negative influence of MB and JI.

I understand your passion about these issues and I accept you’ve confronted these people and for that I applauded you then and still do. But as I keep saying to you when you get into portraying entire creeds unfairly then that detracts from your writing and argument.

If you make a commitment and then can’t even be bothered to recall it then that is an issue for you and not me. I suggest you read the thread, and as an editor of PP that should be easy enough.

I don’t intend to cover Saudi Salafi’s again as I’ve given you enoug evidence from the sources above in previous threads and if you can’t be bothered recalling the previous discussion then chances are you won’t even bother reading the evidence.

I refer you to the Report by an ex-member of the Met who said that Saudi Based Salafis in Brixtonhave provided some of the best cooperation on combating terrorism and extremism. He didn’t even acknowledge your Sufi/Brailwee brothers that you love to promote. So if you have an issue contact him and say he is incorrect.

The Sufi’s are using this opportunity to gain influence with western governments but so far have provided little tangible results for taxpayers money.

Again Yayha Birt said that the Saudi’s fund things with little regard for how money is used. This has changed. The member of QF questioned the methodology of the Sufi’s in portraying Jihad.

The US State Dept on their website acknowledges that there are a number of orgs claiming to be Salafi and the Saudi Salfi’s deplore terrorism even in Israel.

Your lumping together of creeds you dislike does you a dis-service in trying to eradicate this problem because you are alienating people that agree with your view by claiming incorrectly they are something they are not.

I don’t intend to comment again on you continual denials despite numerous links to refute what you say.

Sid – It is you that lives in a dreamworld because frankly you were exposed with regards to blaming creeds you disagree with for everything, hell if you like doing that and using PP for that then it is PP that is all the poorer for allowing you to spread your nonsense.

You agreed at the time that you would be more careful about how your portrayed things.

Avi, these conversations you had with me in which I had an epiphany and agreed with your every word and “evidence” might have happened in your head, but I don’t recognise them to have happened in reality.

You’re clueless about the Jamaati Islami or the nature of client-patron politics in SouthAsia and even more so on the tentacular growth of Islamist politics in South Asia in the last 20 years.

The JI political outfits in Southasia are heavily funded by Salafi and Wahhabi interests in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
We also know that the JI have affiliations with senior board members of the MCB and a particular Muslim charity in the UK.

Here is Adam Stahl on the matter of Saudi funding of Islamist radical outfits in Bangladesh:

It is noteworthy that the JI and IOJ, though radical, are not involved in executing terrorist attacks. They are, however believed to be connected to
underground militant Islamist terror organizations, which have carried out well organized and fatal attacks against governmental and non-governmental targets, such as suicide attacks on the cultural wing of Bangladesh’s Communist Party as well as a recent stabbing of a university professor, Abdul Alim.3 Though a multitude of Bangladeshi Islamist terror organizations exist, one group is worthy of attention:
Jama’atul Mujahideen Bangladesh (The Party of Holy Warriors). The organization is Bangladesh’s largest Islamist terror organization.4 It receives funds from foreign patrons, such as Saudi Arabian and Kuwaiti Islamic charities, proving that international support for their cause exists beyond Bangladesh’s borders. The purpose of this paper is to briefly observe the structure, and tactics as well as the financing and stated goals of the Jama’atul Mujahideen-Bangladesh.

And are you seriously saying that your claim that Saudi-based Salafis do not fund terrorist outfits around the world is backed by “the US State Dept, the Met Police as well as people like Yahya Birt and at least one member of QF”?

That’s some bad juju you’re smoking there mate.

Tell that to Sadats family. Numpty

Are you? Do you agree to a Palestinian State on the pre ‘67 Borders with East Jerusalem as its capital living in security?

YES

Do you believe this has to be done now or as Danny boy says that Israel has to crush the Palestinians first?

NOW. ANY PALESTINIAN GOVT MUST TAKE ON INTERNAL FORCES LIKELY TO SCUPPER SUCH AN AGREEMENT.

“Hamas certainly isn’t in favour of that, though.”

Oh please. They are just posturing and have said that they will recognise Israel once a peace is reached. So has Iran. So has the Middle East.

IRAN HASN’T

MOST OTHER ME STATES WOULD, IF THEY THOUGHT THEY NEEDED TO IN ORDER TO OUTFLANK IRAN

HAMAS HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY HAVE A DOCTRINAL PROBLEM WITH ACCEPTING THE EXISTENCE OF A NON ISLAMIC STATE ON ISLAMIC LAND. TOUGH. UNLESS THEY WANT TO KEEP ON FIGHTING THEY’LL HAVE TO. I’D BE AMAZED IF HAMAS EVER EXPLICITLY RECOGNISED ISRAEL AS A PERMANENT FEATURE IN THE REGION. THEY REGARD THAT AS A THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY

The challange to Hamas is to show they can govern responsibly at the moment they don’t have to show this because no one treats them like a government. The acid test is when they have to do this.

OH, I’M A BIG FAN OF ISLAMISTS COMING TO POWER. THEY TEND TO TURN OUT TO BE INCOMPETENT AND CORRUPT. LOOK AT IRAN. SUNNI ISLAMIST GOVERNMENTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST NEED TO BE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO FAIL.

Are you? Do you agree to a Palestinian State on the pre ‘67 Borders with East Jerusalem as its capital living in security?

Do you believe this has to be done now or as Danny boy says that Israel has to crush the Palestinians first?

“Hamas certainly isn’t in favour of that, though.”

Oh please. They are just posturing and have said that they will recognise Israel once a peace is reached. So has Iran. So has the Middle East.

Why would they recognise Israel before Israel recognises them and vice versa? Both sides are posturing. Do you believe that Israel doesn’t talk to Hamas?

The challange to Hamas is to show they can govern responsibly at the moment they don’t have to show this because no one treats them like a government. The acid test is when they have to do this.

Have you ever noticed that Israel only makes peace when your poster boys in the USA are not involved?

Hamas certainly isn’t in favour of that, though.

Most of the electorate support a Palestinian state including most Jews (which you don’t like to hear)and here I include my mate the Chuief Rabbi but the Govt doesn’t give a hoot about that. Instead they listen to a small minority and form policy from there so stop bloody harping on about democracy.

“The government do not need to take their lead from any self selected groups claiming to speak for this or that constituency.”

Then why the bloody hell do lobby groups exist if the freakin govt don’t listen to them eh?

If government actually listened to the people then your pin up boy Daniel Pipes would haven’t been put into his position by Bush would he even when Congress and the Senate refused to ratify him.

Govt listens to influential lobbies and people that is a fact.

Also did the electorate want to go to war in Iraq – hell no. The support came once the troops were there and people felt they should support the boys and girls. So where was your Blairocracy then?

I find it odd that while David Toube is always eager to expose what he claims are the pseudonyms under which other people post, he never posts under his own name.

Indeed, when he blogged at CiF he did so under the pseudonym of “David Tate”. Imagine! Pretending not to be a Jew in order to attack Muslims. What sort of person would do that?

On the actual subject of this thread, I’m surprised that Blears’ speech to Policy Exchange yesterday hasn’t provoked more comment. As we noted on Islamophobia Watch:

“Not content with imposing a government boycott of one of the most popular and mainstream Muslim events of the year, Blears chooses to announce her justification for this disgraceful decision from the platform of a Tory think tank notorious for its hostility to British Muslims. It’s difficult to see this as anything other than a conscious provocation directed against the Muslim community.”

http://tinyurl.com/63vzxo

In his Guardian article yesterday Seumas Milne quoted an unnamed government minister as describing the DCLG’s approach as “completely counterproductive” in terms of improving relations between Muslims and non-Muslims or countering terrorism.

That’s putting it mildly, in my opinion. I would say that Blears, along with the likes of Azhar Ali and Ed Husain, is in fact actively promoting the alienation of Muslim communities and encouraging recruitment to terrorist groupuscules.

We have elections.

The government do not need to take their lead from any self selected groups claiming to speak for this or that constituency.

Stop trying to subvert democracy.

So whilst tackling the last element the cause isn’t being addressed. Thus people see no change and you get the disconnect.

QF and SMC saying that Muslims need not care about foreign policy is naive at best.

Thus Govt needs to at listen to the foreign policy concerns of Muslims and non-Muslims and build a just foreign policy.

Equally Govt needs to encourage the interfaith work that is being done largely without finance, here I refer to the excellent work of organisations such as Aliph-Aleph.

This issue cannot be solved by people connected to Oxford and Cambrideg as most of society has little if any connection to them.

The Govt also needs to stop its crass stupidity in not sending peope to events such as IslamExpo, if you are not there you can’t be heard it really is that simple.

The last person who can help sort out this problem is Hazel Blears as a simple look at her approach and comments show she is ill-suited to do this.

As I said the last 8 years have shown the grand failures of government policy so why use the same people with the same tired ideas to resolve this.

This issue isn’t going to be solved in the media, it will take grassroots work and that is something that more generally government is ill able ot do on a range of issues. That is one of the great failings of Thatcher and Balir in that government became detached from the grassroots.

I say get Ministers out into the community to actually talk to people. I say again how many ministers and shadow ministers attend local events. Hardly any. Thus how do people expect to get heard. That is a general issue and not just one linked to Muslims. I have seen at first hand Muslims and Jews trying without success to get ministers to attend hugely succesful interfaith events and this understandibly causes frustrations.

Some of the best work is being done on a voluntary basis by organisations that have no funding and is paid for by people who just go on trying to change things. This needs to stop and government needs to fund these grassroots events.

What impact will a lot of people sitting in places such as Oxford and Cambridge have on grassroots? It will be QF and SMC all over again, too much theory and little activity.

The great failing of the MCB after 7/7 was graphically illustrated on the news when lots of young people waited to talk to the MCB leadership and they simply didn’t address them. Govt is the same. So until this happens then how d you get rid of the frustrations? Simply put you don’t.

“The British government is to fund a board of Islamic theologians in an attempt to sideline violent extremists.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7512626.stm

IF the scholars are highly credible ones for angry young Muslims (such as Tariq Ramadan), it might just have some effect.

This does pose the question of whether or not the government has given up on groups such as the Quilliam Foundation and is now going for ‘direct action’.

No-one expects anyone to mindlessly wave a flag, but I assume you can also understand the disconnect with non-Muslims who are getting a bit tired of some fellow citizens’ apparently constant anger.

And are the vast majority of Muslims not in fact behaving as Blears suggests?

I think that the way for them to succeed is to not get into creed based politics within the Muslim Comunity here and in the UK and address issues head on.

They need to engage with the Muslim Community and hold some events within the community and aimed at the community.

Also finance is an issue you’ve raised a number of times so they need to work with the Saudi’s and others to address the issue rather than just blame them in print – so they need to work to resolve the issue. If that doesn’t work then they need to relook at alteratives.

At the moment QF isn’t helping itself to prosper.