Are the Conservatives finally developing sense?


by Sunny
18th December, 2005 at 6:31 am    

I’m not spending half my time on holiday reading British newspapers honest, (though they’re better than even the LA Times), but I couldn’t help this one.

Will David Cameron’s succession to the Tory party mean they will become more friendly towards ethnic minorities, I asked earlier this month, saying he showed plenty of promise going by what he said prior to the election. I may now be proved right.

CameronIn his first interview published in the Observer today, Cameron says he wants to “change the face of the party, with more women and more representatives from black and ethnic minority communities”. On immigration he says:

The principles that the Conservative Party should apply are very clear: we think immigration is very good for Britain; we think that there are clear benefits in a modern economy from having both emigration and immigration, but that net immigration has to have a very careful regard to good community relations and the fair provision of public services.

DC has done three things here: avoided the rubbish and inflammatory rhetoric of his predecessors, laid out the truth on immigration (that it’s a net benefit to the economy), and makes the one distinction most “commentators” fail to do – between immigration and asylum seekers.

I’m passionately committed to giving people who are being tortured and persecuted asylum, and that means not just letting them in, but taking them to our hearts, and feeding and clothing and schooling them.

Bravo! Even the bloody Labour party refused to be so bold during the election last year.

How all this translates into action will have to be seen. His cabinet is unfortunately full of has-beens (IDS, Hague) who had no clue about what to do with immigration/asylum and just peddled the standard rhetoric.

You may ask, why the big interest? Let me explain. Firstly I believe this country has a moral responsibility like any other to try and provide for those avoiding persecution. Specially from the countries we invade. Note that other European countries and the developed world take far more asylum seekers than the UK. India and Pakistan particularly.

Secondly, paranoid attacks (based on speculation not facts) on immigrants/asylum seekers leads to more xenophobia and general ill-will towards all non-whites. If a person thinks their country is being overrun by immigrants (most think 25% of the UK is non-white when it’s only 7.9%), they probably won’t make the distinction between an immigrant or a British-born Asian/African. There are many studies to show the media bias and attacks on immigrants has lead to more racism but I can’t find them now.

Lastly, the Conservative Party is finally moving towards its natural position on this issue: pro-immigration / pro-market. It’s always struck me as amusing that when the economic benefits of controlled immigration are clear, the right-wing political party has traditionally opposed it. It shows their guts rule over their brains, but maybe the Conservatives are finally developing sense.

Though, it would be wise to read Neil Harding’s comment on this made previously.


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  1. raz — on 18th December, 2005 at 12:29 pm  

    “Note that other European countries and the developed world take far more asylum seekers than the UK. India and Pakistan particularly”

    Excellent point. IIRC Pakistan has the highest amount of asylum seekers and refugees in the world within its borders.

  2. El Cid — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:11 pm  

    I have a question Sunny (or anyone else for that matter). What if the person escaping persecution is a potential security risk to the UK or, for that matter, the rest of the EU?

  3. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:40 pm  

    Sunny,

    Most refugees to the West are coming here for economic reasons. The ones actually fleeing torture are a tiny minority. And it could be argued that the ones that are(usually hirsuit Muslim fanatics) deserve no place in our societies. Moreover, I would argue that most Europeans favor policies that take immigrants from non-Muslim countries. Nothing racist about that,(I would favor Catholic South Americans, Arab Christians, Non-Muslim South Asian and East Asian) These groups just seem to assimilate better and don’t blow up buses or trains filled with their fellow citizens, or stab to death artist who diss Muhammad.

    I have family in Marseilles, Lille and Paris,( cities that suffered from Arab Muslim rioters last month.) They have all prospered since they emigrated to France in the late 70′s fleeing the civil war in Lebanon. Why can’t Muslims follow suit, why are Muslims always causing trouble wherever they go. France has a very large Lebanese Christian community and it has not given their adopted country ANY problems since they were offered refuge.

    The conservative party as I understand it and you mention in your last paragragh is for controlled immigration. You cannot argue that this position describes the mess that is the UK’s current immigration policy.

    Raz,

    “Excellent point. IIRC Pakistan has the highest amount of asylum seekers and refugees in the world within its borders.”

    Correct, but one could hazard that 100% of these refugees are Muslim. My point is that these refugees(mostly Afgan) are not going to upset the ethnic/regligios balance in Pakistan in any way. Would Pakistan be so generous if millions of Christian Ghoras showed up at their doorstep asking for refuge?

  4. Soultrain — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:42 pm  

    Wasn’t David Cameron involved in an integral part of the manifesto that the Conservatives fought the general election on this year? The one which turned immigration into a major issue and portraying it as a national threat in sensationalist terms? I’m only asking here, coz if that is the case, then you have to question whether DC has good intentions at heart, whether he is learning from his mistakes, or willing to say anything to every specific demographic to win power.

    Even if I give DC the benefit of the doubt, i do believe he is not consistent in what the majority of his party-members believe about the perception of immigrants taking over the UK and causing all sorts of grief, which are expressed behind closed doors, for fear of getting the party into trouble.

  5. douglas — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:45 pm  

    Sunny,

    I have made it a rule of my life never to believe a Conservative. There are huge gaps in his message, for instance who he agrees is a legitimate asylum seeker? It is in the nature of laws to be on the side of the mindless morons that police our borders. Whilst I would be against allowing anyone who’s view was that the overthrow of the democratic government of the UK was their number one priority, I would seek to remove anyone from oppression or torture. You need Mr Cameron to give you a straight answer on that, not me.

    Best of luck.

  6. El Cid — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:46 pm  

    Mount Lebanon, you are an ignorant racist of the first order.
    Luckily for me, I live and grew up in a multi-ethnic setting and I can see straight away that your generalisations are untrue and unacceptable.

  7. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 2:59 pm  

    El Cid,

    Ah we have come full circle, a pink skinned liberal telling a dusky Arab that he is a racist for telling the truth about Islam.

    As for David Cameron.

    Where shall I start with this bloke? In the past couple of weeks, he valiantly told each part of the electorate what they want to hear – with some Orwellian contradictions thrown in.

    The Conservatives are New Labour who are the Liberal Democrats – none of them understand Jihad, none of them are capable of looking it in the eye – lest it offend their postmodern, all inclusive doctrine.

    For all the tough talk today, Cameron will not take Britain out of the EUrabian Human Rights Convention & will not, should he ever reach Number 10, do anywhere near what is necessary.

    Appeasement & eventual Dhimmitude is assured with all the main 2 and a half parties in the UK, along with more Knighthoods for fine upstanding British citizens like Sir Iqbal & Life Peerages for the likes of Lord Ali, & of course, getting Jihad supporters from the MCB to “root out” the “minority of Muslim extremist bad apples in the blissful orchid of Islam UK”.

    Make no mistake about the near political future of the UK – your Emperor, & the Emporers in waiting, are definately stark, bollock naked.

  8. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 3:44 pm  

    Make no mistake about the near political future of the UK – your Emperor, & the Emporers in waiting, are definately stark, bollock naked.

    Great – when the barbarian Muslims start to impose sharia on our cities we can bring in those Lebanese Christian Falangists with practice in massacring in Shabra and Chatila – they will do a good job on the streets of London and Manchester, no doubt about it, I’m sure you’d be up for some of that.

  9. El Cid — on 18th December, 2005 at 3:47 pm  

    You’ve been smoking too much of that Lebanese Red matey.
    I am no namby pamby liberal, I don’t think. Not a classic one anyroad.
    I’m an in-your-face radical with working class-come-good attitudes. Everything I have I have fought tooth and nail for and I confess to having a chip on my shoulder regarding my country’s private education system; I’m shit at helping my wife with the house chores and I would have no problems smacking a naughty child; I flinch and grimace at the idea of a man wanting to stick his penis up another man’s arse but I see it as none of my business; I drink copius amounts of alcohol if i’m in the mood and I watch a lot of football; I can’t stand opera, I swear and I have a strong local accent; I speak my mind and I’m not scared to challenge the consensus, whatever it is.
    Oh yes, my tribal cv includes catholic.
    OK, so I’m educated, read books, go to the theatre, oppose the death penalty, engage in intellectual discussion (sometimes), provide the odd dinner party anecdote and can whip up a great Spanish omelette.
    Your problem capullo (that’s dickhead in Spanish — pronounced ca-pu-yo) is that you are too quick to make assumptions about people. And as I have just demonstrated, wrong assumptions. And it is this which underpins your racist ignorance. Whatever you have experienced and seen in your lifetime (whether in Oz or Lebanon) it is not something that you can apply willy-nilly to 1 bln or so moslems around the world and then develop into a general theory.
    For the record, most of the 2 million or so moslems in Britain are Pakistani, Bangladesh or Turkish and have largely lived peacefully in the country for several generations. Indeed, as shopkeepers or doctors they more likely to contribute to the economy or to sew rather than blow people up

  10. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    Jay,

    And what is a kuffar like yourself going to do if Muslims ever impose sharia on English cities. Are you going to pay the jizra willingly? As for those trigger-happy Lebanese Christian Falangists, they were only answering massacre for massacre. C’est Le Guerre. Me thinks you have been reading to much Robert Fisk.

    El Cid

    Your bio was completely unnecessary . You claim you’re not a namby pamby liberal but then you go on to describe just that. You also sound very chippy. What the hell is wrong with private education, my father was educated by Dominicans at Ampleforth and a few uncles were educated by Jesuits at Stoneyhurst. Great schools, what is the problem?

    “Your problem capullo (that’s dickhead in Spanish — pronounced ca-pu-yo) is that you are too quick to make assumptions about people.”

    But el cid you are doing just that. You have the temerity to say that someone with roots in the Middle East, whose ancestors suffered under the Muslim yoke, has no right to make assumptions about Islam or Muslims. This is not racism as I share the same race with some of the people I am critisizing. I’m not one of those Maronites who claims Phoenician
    descent, I am Arab as my ansestors were.

    And how many of those two million muslims in the UK privatly cheered the atrocities in New York, Madrid, London or every other daily Muslim outrage. Or how many of them “flinch and grimace at the idea of a man wanting to stick his penis up another man’s arse”(why do you Brits always go on about buggery) but unlike yourself, see it as very much their business that this unhealthy past-time is not tolerated.

  11. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 4:42 pm  

    Yo Mount Lebanon

    Please read in the other thread my description of what would happen when you get your face smashed in by a racist mob looking for Muslims, its hilarious ;-)

  12. thbt — on 18th December, 2005 at 4:55 pm  

    These groups just seem to assimilate better…

    What do you blame for the continual marginalisation of black peoples — African or West Indian — in Europe? It can’t be their “religion”, as most are not Muslim. Certainly in the case of the Britain this is true for the vast majority of black Britons. People do have to accept responsibility too for their actions too (otherwise we deprive them of their humanity and turn them into automata). But the situation is obviously a lot more complex than you suggest.

    Ah we have come full circle, a pink skinned liberal telling a dusky Arab that he is a racist for telling the truth about Islam.

    As anyone who has worked in Arab countries, from the Gulf states to the Levantine, can attest being a “dusky Arab” no bar to being a racist.

    But you don’t really care about anything other than pushing the “Eurabian” nonsense. So ignore me and feel free to carry on.

  13. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 4:58 pm  

    Jay,

    Where would I most likely get my head kicked in and suffer the physical damage you so vividly described? A nice tolerant Muslim suburb of Paris or a predominantly white district in that city.

  14. Rohin — on 18th December, 2005 at 5:18 pm  

    Raz, as far as I know (according to a talk from Naaz Coker), Pakistan doesn’t have the highest number of asylum seekers and refugees overall (India is just a bigger country and has taken refugees from all over Asia for many years), but for the last few years it has received more than any other country. This is predominantly due to the War on Terror, with millions having fled across the border from Afghanistan and neighbouring countries.

    India and Pakistan have very good records with being welcoming places for those fleeing persecution. Another thing she said in her talk is that Europe actually only receives 2% of the world’s refugees.

  15. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 5:33 pm  

    Count Dracula

    Where would I most likely get my head kicked in and suffer the physical damage you so vividly described?

    When it happens, I hope it happens by a bunch of rednecks who mis-identify you for a Muslim – that would be hilarious.

    Its just my sense of humour – we all can laugh at you then, especially in your glee and sympathy for anticipated lynch mob violence against Muslims.

    Now, accept it in the spirit of comedy, and be a good boy.

    If you are going to reply, please control your temper. I know this will be difficult. But try :-)

  16. El Cid — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:18 pm  

    Mount Lebanon,
    All that private education seems to have gone to waste, as you’re clearly unable to see beyond your prejudices. You also seem to have missed my point entirely.
    Read my post and try again.

  17. Mirax — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:22 pm  

    Mount Leb sounds just like one of those HP regular muslim bashers the way he goes on hysterically about Eurabia, appeasement and dhimmitude. He has not ranted about Mo being a paedophile (yet) but has gone on ad nauseam , on another thread, about rape and pillaging of jews in Arabia 14 centuries ago by Mo and friends.

    I am glad that PP posters have recognised Mountie for what he is -nasty bigot !-and given him short shrift.

  18. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:24 pm  

    “This is predominantly due to the War on Terror, with millions having fled across the border from Afghanistan and neighbouring countries.”

    Complete and utter nonsense, millions did not flee when the Taliban were overthrown by America. Millions did flee Afganistan, where many still remain in the NWF, but that was in the 80′s and the former Soviet Union can be blamed for that.

    Are you suggesting that Europe should take more (Muslim) refugees. If that ever comes to pass, more and more of Europe will look and feel like Clichy-sous-Bois. Oy vey!

  19. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:34 pm  

    Mirax,

    And why shouldn’t people rant about Muhammad’s predilection for rape, plunder, murder, massacre and oh yes shagging little girls who still play with dolls. Are these people, sorry Islamaphobes, making all this up? Or are they actually lifting these stories from the Hadiths. Are we supposed to shrug these stories off and whisper move along folks, nothing to see here?

  20. Mirax — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:41 pm  

    only hateful fuckwits like you obsess about the sexlife (that too a disputed and controversial account) of a man who lived 1400 years ago and drag it into every discussion about muslims-don’t whine when anyone saner than you foaming and frothing at the mouth bigots calls it what it is! Sickness!

    Your very willingness to excuse the sabra and chatila masscres just showed you up to a bastard of the lowest order’ so do crawl away now.

  21. El Cid — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:45 pm  

    anyway, what were we talking about?

  22. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:47 pm  

    anyway, what were we talking about?

    Mount Lebanon was just telling us about how he likes to use dildos on himself ;-) in between bouts of calling for Muslim children to be burnt alive.

  23. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:48 pm  

    “What do you blame for the continual marginalisation of black peoples — African or West Indian — in Europe? ”

    I honestly don’t know, but I think the problem is deeper than racism. For example my sister is a teacher in a north Montreal high school, most of the student body is Haitien and poor. She told me that the students that excel at their studies and go on to university are the one’s with a stable family life, meaning a father and mother at home. Most of the drop-outs (male and female) are the product of single mother’s. This might mirror the problem in Britain with its large West Indian population.

  24. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:54 pm  

    Wow thanks for that contribution Mount Lebanon and sharing your sisters insight into black underachievment in Montreal. Does she think innocent Muslims should be attacked and their places of worship burnt down on the streets of Britain like you do? Please let us know.

    Cheers.

  25. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 6:59 pm  

    “Only hateful fuckwits like you obsess about the sexlife (that too a disputed and controversial account) of a man who lived 1400 years ago and drag it into every discussion about muslims-don’t whine when anyone saner than you foaming and frothing at the mouth bigots calls it what it is! Sickness!”

    Actually it’s not a “disputed and controversial account” It’s in Sahih Bukhari vol 7 book 62 numbers 64. What is really shocking is that none of you guys find Muhammad’s filth shocking. How is it sickness for “hateful fuckwits” pointing out or reminding people of Muhammad’s errant sexual behavior. If the big man was a mere Arab brigand then yes it would be foolish to judge him, but he invented a religion that is followed by one billion adherents, who seem to think it was A-ok for him, while in his 50′s to penetrate little girls.

    And you call me a sick bigot. I guess Kipling was right about east is east and west is west.

  26. Mirax — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:04 pm  

    Oi, fuckwit, FWIW’s worth, Mo’s (or for that matter, christ’s or Krishna’s or the Buddha’s) fucking sex life is completely IRRELEVANT to me and to most people who are sincere about grappling with problems here and now. You and a bunch of HP/LGF regulars may be the only ones on the planets obsessing so graphically about this. Turns you on does it? Sick bastard.

  27. Jay Singh — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:07 pm  

    Mount Lebanon definietly uses a dildo on himself :-)

  28. Mirax — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:09 pm  

    You sound so familiar Lebs. So eerily do you echo the torrid fixations of old peculiar,logan3,palubiski et al- come on which are you?

  29. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:11 pm  

    Mirax

    Christ’s sex life?

  30. Mirax — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:15 pm  

    oh yes, you probably believe he lived and died without having carnal knowledge of man, woman or beast. It figures.

  31. raz — on 18th December, 2005 at 7:27 pm  

    Rohin,

    Having checked the facts, this is what I have found. After 1980, Pakistan had the highest amount of refugees/asylum seekers in the world for about 20 years. This was nothing to do with the war on terror but was a result of the Afghan invasion by the Soviet Union. After the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001,millions of Afghans have begun returning home, but there are still over a million in camps inside Pakistan, not to mention many more that have filtered into the cities.

    For more about the refugee situation in Pak, go here:

    http://www.un.org.pk/unhcr/about.htm

    Hope this is of help :)

  32. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 9:02 pm  

    Mirax

    “oh yes, you probably believe he lived and died without having carnal knowledge of man, woman or beast. It figures. ”

    Uh no, I suppose that as a man he DID have carnal knowledge of man and women, but it was carnal experience that he was devoid of.

  33. Mount Lebanon — on 18th December, 2005 at 9:05 pm  

    Rohin,

    I hope that clears things up about Bushhitler and Tony Blier being responsible for Pakistan’s refugee problems.

  34. j0nz — on 18th December, 2005 at 9:10 pm  

    Three cheers for Cameron’s compassionate conservatism. This man is really going for it like no Tory ever before. Prime ministerial material…

  35. Vladimir — on 18th December, 2005 at 10:39 pm  

    Well ok Jonz… scum scum Tory fuck’in scum (there’s your three cheers) :) . Well Jonz It seems that you have fallen for Camerons media savy approach towards trying to fool the public into believing that the Conservatie have the right policy to form the next government.

  36. Vladimir — on 18th December, 2005 at 10:42 pm  

    ooops Conservative*

  37. jamal — on 18th December, 2005 at 11:29 pm  

    This is intresting, but i’ll reserve comment or opinion for when some action has actually taken place and been sustained.

  38. Sunny — on 19th December, 2005 at 12:15 am  

    Mount Lebanon – It’s clear you neither have anything interesting to say, nor anything valuable to add. In fact this thread is going off-topic entirely because people are too busy cussing you or poking fun at your mad-paranoid fantasies. Please go back to LGF or whatever gutter you came from – or stick to the topic. Or I will ban you.

    As for Cameron – we have a right to be cynical of course and many have pointed out that Cameron was closely involved in campaigns before to villify immigrants.

    However, he has publicly taken a different stance, and that is interesting.

    Much as I’m not a fan of the Conservatives, I believe we have to be pragmatic. The danger in being automatically Labour-centric is that they start taking people for granted rather than listen to what the people want. Of late, Labour has been so manipulated and used by big business and big media so much it makes me sick. He’s forsaken all Labour values, Tony Blair, in my opinion.

  39. Bikhair — on 19th December, 2005 at 2:42 am  

    Sunny,

    “The danger in being automatically Labour-centric is that they start taking people for granted rather than listen to what the people want.”

    This is often said to blacks by Republicans that since they overwhelmingly vote democratic the democratic party has taken their vote for granted. Some black conservatives go even further and assert that the problems in the black community, crime, scholastic underachievement, the absence of the nuclear family, and the loss of work ethnic is directly related to them overwhelming voting for liberals and the democratic party.

    I never understood this argument because if the result for voting democratic were the above socail ills, wouldnt they effect every ethnic community that voted democrat. Obviously there is something wrong in the black community that is unique to the black community. What it is, me not know. I think its the fact that they are Christian. Ha Ha!

    Cheerio old chap!

  40. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 7:35 am  

    Idiots who forget history are condemned to relive it.

    Prophet Vikrant

  41. BevanKieran — on 19th December, 2005 at 10:20 am  

    The overthrow of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein has done the greatest good in dealing with the root causes of asylum seeker and refugees.

    Improving conditions for refugees and asylum seekers is the equivalent of improving conditions for homeless people; it is making the best of a bad situation. Presumably, unless it is a significant proportion (as in Pakistan’s intake of Afghani refugees) and (should have been U.K’s case for Jewish refugees during the 1930s), then we only deal with the tip; those rich enough to make the journey and letting the other, poorer refugees stew away or die.

    Point being dealing with the effects of a crisis should be accompanied with the muscle to tackle the root causes. Otherwise, we will end up being like a woolly liberal country such as Canada or Norway.

  42. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 10:58 am  

    Obviously there is something wrong in the black community that is unique to the black community. What it is, me not know. I think its the fact that they are Christian. Ha Ha!

    Bikhair, you really can be ignorant cow sometimes. In Britain, the issues you describe — such as crime, scholastic underachievement, etc — are also applicable to the Anglo-Irish white working class and the moslem Bangla and Pak communities (that other ethnic groups have tended to do better, notably the Hindu, Chinese and Greek communities, I doubt is to do with religion).

    Also you simplify — the term “blacks” includes a whole swathe of people. In fact, DNA studies show that there are far greater differences between people of African orgin than there are between, say, Europeans and Chinese, let alone Jews and Arabs (ha ha). You also ignore the fact that christian West Africans — of which they are more than a million in Britain — tend to do rather well.
    Finally, the contribution of “blacks”, not least West Indians and Afro-Americans, to global culture is infinitesimally greater than that of Saudi Arabs. What the fuck have you and your people done in the last 500 years? I know who I would rather welcome into my family.

  43. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 11:00 am  

    oops, “an” missing in my sentence.

  44. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 12:15 pm  

    ethnic groups have tended to do better, notably the Hindu, Chinese and Greek communities

    El Cid…. Hindus are not an ethnic group. Technically Pakistanis, most Indians and Bangladeshi share same ethnicity (except for those delusional Syeeds and Qureshis in Pakistan.

  45. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 12:17 pm  

    quote:I doubt is to do with religion.

    Well you cant strictly say that it has nothing to do with religion. Muslim are bound to be more conservative than their Hindu,Christian counterparts.

  46. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 12:28 pm  

    Vikrant,
    Since you are getting needlessly hot under the collar about definitions, please define “ethnic group” for me. Let’s see how far we get.

    I didn’t “strictly say that it has nothing to do with religion.”
    Calvinist protestantism dovetailed better with the rise of capitalism than Catholicism. But then Ireland and Spain are doing quite well these days, aren’t they? I also recall something about the Italian rennaisance.
    What’s wrong with you man — why don’t you get virtually cross and smug about something important.

  47. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 12:38 pm  

    Dude get your facts straight.

    Islam is not a race.

    Pakistanis or South Asia Muslims are descendent of Indo-Aryans who at some point in history converted to Islam. Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Punjabis would share same ethnicity just as Hindu and Muslim Bengalis. Say if a few Englishmen (Anglo-Saxons to be particular) convert to Buddhism, would they be considered a different ethnic group?

  48. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 1:29 pm  

    are jews a race?

  49. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 1:33 pm  

    and why are there similarities between sanskrit and latin?

  50. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 2:02 pm  

    And if Hinduism was so superior compared with Islam as a framework for intellectual and economic achievement, then why is it that India has fared so dismally since independence? Why has it taken it so long to get its act together? Why does India have a lower GDP per capita than Indonesia? (I could add many more predominantly Islamic countries).
    NO, don’t answer that. A genuine answer would take too long, because it is complicated, not simplistic, as your “Hindus: dont’cha just love them?” agenda would suggest.
    Thing is, Vikrant, why pick on one particular, minor comment in a post. It’s not conducive to debate and it makes for repetitive discussions.

  51. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 2:54 pm  

    El Cid i never said Hinduism is superior compared to Islam. Its just that most Muslims are bound to be more conservative than modern-day Hindus. Yes i will answer that. Per capita income is not the only measure of a nations development even China’s per capita is low. India has 4th largest PPP, It is Asia’s 3rd biggest economy, India has got more engineers than whole western europe put together.blah… clah.. even i could go on.

    Plus it is because of India’s predominantly Hindu character. Hinduism unlike some religions doesnt claim to be only and the surest path to God. Though Indians do have a fair share of fanatics, India secular country.

    No Muslim country is a true secular democracy. From Pakistan to Indonesia, KSA to Morroco, infidels are made to live under various forms of Shariat Dhimmi laws (yes even your much famed Malaysia!)

    As for why India performed so dismally after independence, (gasp)… Britian left India utterly destitute and broken with 150 million desperatey poor people and 15 million additional refugees who were kicked out from Pakistan. Surely 50 years isnt that big time to set that right unless ofcourse you have a totalitarian government in place.

  52. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 2:55 pm  

    Corrections:

    Plus it is because of India’s predominantly Hindu character that India secular country.. Hinduism unlike some religions doesnt claim to be only and the surest path to God. Although Indians do have a fair share of fanatics

  53. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:07 pm  

    You’re a one-trick pony Vikrant

  54. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:09 pm  

    …. a deluded one as well.

  55. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:52 pm  

    and you are a two bit pinko.

  56. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:53 pm  

    …. a dhimmi one as well.

  57. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:53 pm  

    lol

  58. Jai Singh — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:58 pm  

    =>”and why are there similarities between sanskrit and latin?”

    Common ancestors 4000+ years ago, to expand slightly on Vikrant’s comment about Indo-Aryans.

    However, Vikrant is slightly inaccurate about all Muslims in the subcontinent being the descendents of “local” converts (assuming I’ve interpreted his comments correctly). The majority probably are — however, there was also a significant infusion of Middle Eastern “blood” during the past 1000 years, via immigration (and subsequent intermarriage) from Afghanistan, Persia etc, along with the various Arab regions.

    Also, “Asians” in the British sense of the term are not a single, ethnically homogeneous group. In that sense it is not accurate to say that Punjabis of various religious backgrounds would automatically share the same ethnic composition as (for example) Bengalis. Very broadly-speaking — Yes — but there are some other differences too, depending on the particular family and individual. Genetically, Asians are a hybrid of several different racial groups — although obviously some people will be much closer to Persians, Eastern Europeans or Mediterranean groups than others.

    However, I agree that Hindus (or any other religious subcontinental group) are not a “race”, any more than Christians are.

  59. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 3:59 pm  

    After seeing my mum miss the 11-M atrocity by minutes and not being on the first carriage of a certain Piccadilly Line train because I was on an earlier shift, I don’t think so.

    As for two bit pinko.. I think Bollinger Bolshy is more apt!

  60. Siddharth — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:04 pm  

    However, I agree that Hindus (or any other religious subcontinental group) are not a “race”, any more than Christians are.

    Orthodox Hinduism implies that Hinduism is a race because to be a Hindu one has to be born into a caste and thereby be subject to the dharma of that caste. And to be born into a caste, one is Hindu a priori.

    But the more pertinent question is – WTF has that got to do with David Cameron?

  61. Jai Singh — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:15 pm  

    We don’t want to take this too off-topic (as you’ve rightly mentioned yourself), but there have been various historical precedents for groups originating outside the subcontinent being “inducted” into the Hindu religious infrastructure, both centuries ago and, more recently, with regards to various (predominantly Caucasian) “converts” to the Bhaktivedanta Krishna-focused Hindu sect.

    That would be a long and fairly complicated discussion so — before I inadvertantly hijack this thread — we don’t need to get into all that here.

    And yes, all this does have nothing whatsoever to do with David Cameron ;)

  62. Siddharth — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:23 pm  

    Yes, but as David Cameron would say, the Bhaktivedanta Krishna-focused Hindu sect is not strictly orthodox in the etymological sense of the word, is it?

  63. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:27 pm  

    Orthodox Hinduism? Who cares for the shit these days, Ask any of your Hindu friends how many of them have actually read Vedas, Bhagvad Gita.. how many can speak Sanskrit… You’d be astonished at the level of ignorance displayed by Hindus towards their own religions.

    BTW Sid for steering this waay off topic, i felt i had to correct El Cid.

  64. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    Orthodox Hinduism? Who cares for the shit these days, Ask any of your Hindu friends how many of them have actually read Vedas, Bhagvad Gita.. how many can speak Sanskrit… You’d be astonished at the level of ignorance displayed by Hindus towards their own religion.

    BTW Sid for steering this waay off topic, i felt i had to correct El Cid.

  65. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:31 pm  

    Sorry Sidd.. but I was actually responding to Bikhair… Vikrant just felt the need “to correct me” on a minor point. He couldn’t help himself. And I had a good laugh bringing ol’ shiva pants down a few pegs, but it was way off topic.
    My apols

  66. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:32 pm  

    oop.. sorry… stupid clumsy meself.

  67. Siddharth — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:36 pm  

    Actually Vikrant, every time you post you do remind me of David Cameron. Smarmy, glib, superfluous and toe cheese are words that come to mind in both your cases. So I guess you were on topic. ;-)

  68. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:38 pm  

    Corrections:
    BTW Sid sorryfor steering this waay off topic, i felt i had to correct El Cid.

  69. Jai Singh — on 19th December, 2005 at 4:44 pm  

    Guys, Vikrant is only 18 — old enough to know better, but still young enough to be cut a significant amount of slack.

    Don’t bully him ;)

  70. Siddharth — on 19th December, 2005 at 5:01 pm  

    Vik’s hard as nails and knows how to look after himself, I’m sure. Aren’t you, coochy coo!

  71. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 5:11 pm  

    I’m sure his A-level results were/will be superb

  72. Vikrant — on 19th December, 2005 at 5:39 pm  

    16 actually… will be givin my GCSE’s this year!

  73. Bikhair — on 19th December, 2005 at 6:52 pm  

    El Cid,

    “Finally, the contribution of “blacks”, not least West Indians and Afro-Americans, to global culture is infinitesimally greater than that of Saudi Arabs. What the fuck have you and your people done in the last 500 years? I know who I would rather welcome into my family.”

    Who are my people? Muslims are my people dear. I dont subscribe to racial politics. This isnt about race but about culture which is something I should have mentioned because West and East Africans do far far better than than “black” Americans socio-economically. Like I said there is something going on in that community that is unique to that community.

  74. El Cid — on 19th December, 2005 at 7:50 pm  

    Does that include Shi-ite moslems, South Asian moslems, non-Wahhabist- moslems generally and Afro-American converts. Funny, I got the distinct impression you weren’t too keen on them.

  75. Bikhair — on 19th December, 2005 at 8:07 pm  

    El Cid,

    Actually, any Muslim that is upon the Quran and the Sunnah, according to the understanding of the pious Salaf or rather those Muslims who came before us, of the earliest generations of Muslims to whom Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) praised then yes they are my people. I should also inform you that Salafiyah is very popular among black Muslims in America with large communities in New York, Phillidelphia, Atlanta, Texas, and New Jersey. They tend to be the most receptive to the dawah, and are the best of the ummah because of it. And to Allah is all knowledge and praise.

    It has been my expirience that South Asian Muslims arent receptive to dawatus Salafiyah because they see it as some Arab conspiracy to control Darul Islam. Ha Ha Ha…..

  76. Don — on 19th December, 2005 at 8:39 pm  

    Oh dear, the medication seems to be wearing off.

  77. Sunny — on 19th December, 2005 at 9:40 pm  

    Bihair hunny, British Bangladeshi Muslims are among the worst performing (in school) and poorest groups of all. So enough of that superiority tone.

    If you and Vikrant weren’t so different in age and religion, I’d say you two were made for each other.

  78. John Barnes — on 19th December, 2005 at 11:13 pm  

    Just a small point on the article about David Cameron. I may got my wires crossed here but didn’t he write the manifesto (including the immigration stuff) that Howard stood on at the last election?

  79. Vikrant — on 20th December, 2005 at 4:43 am  

    If you and Vikrant weren’t so different in age and religion, I’d say you two were made for each other.

    Hey dudie i was thinking otherwise. Pinkos and Jehadis make a happy couple!

  80. Sunny — on 20th December, 2005 at 7:44 am  

    Vikrant the only person she sounds like on here is you. Jehadi, commie, pinko, idiot aside, you two are both pompous, ready to throw silly labels and stupendously naive. As I said, you deserve each other :)

  81. Jai Singh — on 20th December, 2005 at 10:55 am  

    Sunny, with all due respect, Vikrant’s age should cause you (and other participants on this forum) to restrain your verbal abuse towards him — this is not an acceptable way to speak to someone who is only 16 (as it turns out, even younger than I had previously thought).

    Patiently pointing out where one thinks he is wrong or misguided in his thinking, and providing rational explanations for why a different perspective or conclusion would be more appropriate, would definitely be a more constructive course of action. Throwing insulting labels at the guy not only patronises him and “fans the flames”, it also risks alienating him further and essentially putting him off from participating further in this forum.

    One has to set a positive tone and, indeed, set a positive example for individuals who are much younger than oneself.

    For what it’s worth, Vikrant is a hell of a lot more articulate and well-informed than I was at his age, and he’s got guts to be standing his ground against — and participating in debates about fairly complex sociopolitical issues with — individuals on this forum who are often far older than he is. He should be given credit for that, even if one occasionally disagrees with some of his conclusions — but, as I said before, there are far more constructive and mature ways to address any concerns or objections one may have with some of his statements.

    Let’s all have some consideration for the guy’s youth, for God’s sake.

  82. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:03 am  

    Will anybody please think of the children!!!
    Stop being so pompous and mumsy. I don’t recall anyone being obscene or aggressive.
    I think Vikrant can look after himself. He’s doing fine. In any case, there’s nothing wrong with a bit of the school of hard knocks from the safety of your own home.

  83. Jai Singh — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:23 am  

    El Cid,

    By insulting me you’re being aggressive right now. Are you even aware of this ?

  84. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:24 am  

    aggressive?

  85. Jai Singh — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:28 am  

    Absolutely. Personal insults are rarely necessary, unless someone is being deliberately malicious to a third party.

  86. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:30 am  

    By calling you mumsy I am insulting you? C’mon Jai. lighten up.

  87. Jai Singh — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:46 am  

    By referring to my original post as both “pompous” and “mumsy” — despite the fact that I deliberately made a point to word it as politely and diplomatically as possible — yes you are insulting me. Ironically the rest of your post was fine — even though I don’t agree with it — but it’s an example of unnecessary verbal abuse which is ultimately counterproductive.

    There’s a lot of fake machismo which goes on within this blog — and I am referring to multiple precedents here, not specifically to Sunny — and although the participants concerned may claim to have the right to conduct themselves in such a thuggish and uncivilised manner (obviously as long as Sunny and the other moderators don’t warn or ban them, which they often do), the rest of us do simultaneously have a right to voice our objections if a third-party is being unfairly attacked or mistreated.

    Vikrant may be rapidly approaching adulthood — with all the associated “hard knocks” you have referred to — but it does not mean we have to contribute to his negative experiences. You can either act as a source of positive guidance or you can attempt to verbally insult him into submission. The latter option is ego-driven bullying and is therefore unacceptable behaviour. Moreover, as someone who is 16, he is still a minor and therefore should be treated with the requisite level of patience. Such factors have to be taken into consideration when framing any appropriate responses. Anything less is intellectual laziness.

  88. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:48 am  

    I still think you are being mumsy and pompous, and Im sure I’m not alone. So there

  89. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 11:59 am  

    I bet Vik is really grateful for your intervention too!!!

  90. Vikrant — on 20th December, 2005 at 12:11 pm  

    Jai dont worry… my age shouldnt be a problem here. As i see it, i’m more knowledgeable about certain issues than these Macauly’s grand-children.

  91. Vikrant — on 20th December, 2005 at 12:20 pm  

    Its rather unfortunate that a dhimmi has choosen “El Cid” as his handle.

  92. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 1:12 pm  

    I won’t take offence at you calling me a dhimmi. I’ll laugh off the second section of your first sentence in a fatherly and a “there, there” way. And if you want to learn a bit more about El Cid and the Moors, you’re most welcome to ask.

  93. Don — on 20th December, 2005 at 1:45 pm  

    Roughly two posts even vaguely on topic in the past 24 hours. Is this a record?

    On the subject of age, Vikram may well be our youngest contributor, but he is far from the most childish.

    El Cid; I trust your devastating riposte of ‘So there.’ was ironic?

  94. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 2:04 pm  

    what do you think

  95. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 2:07 pm  

    Btw, did any one have a comment for post No.2:
    I have a question Sunny (or anyone else for that matter). What if the person escaping persecution is a potential security risk to the UK or, for that matter, the rest of the EU?

  96. Vikrant — on 20th December, 2005 at 2:28 pm  

    Do worry “El Cid” i’m well versed with Spanish history… especially the El Cid and the Inquisition part.

  97. El Cid — on 20th December, 2005 at 2:41 pm  

    As you grow older you will realise just how misplaced your arrogance is and how little you actually know. Don’t fret about the typo in your post either.

  98. Mount Lebanon — on 20th December, 2005 at 7:33 pm  

    El Cid

    “Finally, the contribution of “blacks”, not least West Indians and Afro-Americans, to global culture is infinitesimally greater than that of Saudi Arabs. What the fuck have you and your people done in the last 500 years? I know who I would rather welcome into my family.”

    My God! I actually agree with him.

  99. Mount Lebanon — on 20th December, 2005 at 7:48 pm  

    Vikrant,

    I’m a great fan of El Cid, if it hadn’t been for the sacrifice of patriots like him, Spain would be an appendage of Morroco today. As for the the Inquisition, most of the nonsense lay people know about this institution is from the propaganda from Protestant printing presses.

  100. Don — on 20th December, 2005 at 10:19 pm  

    Aha! Inquisition denial.

    Kidding. Please don’t respond with a 4,000 word essay.

  101. Bikhair — on 21st December, 2005 at 4:14 am  

    Mount Lebanon the Heretical and Oftentimes Hyporcritical Saracen,

    El Cid

    “Finally, the contribution of “blacks”, not least West Indians and Afro-Americans, to global culture is infinitesimally greater than that of Saudi Arabs. What the fuck have you and your people done in the last 500 years? I know who I would rather welcome into my family.”

    My God! I actually agree with him. ”

    What exactly do you agree with. Are you really going to judge the value of a person based on the performance of the particular group they belong to? Is that what your Catholic religion teaches you? And the fact that so many people have contempt for blacks, including A-rabs just like you, because they arent viewed as productive, smart, attractive, etc.

    What the f**k have the Zulus done in the last 500 years and on that basis you will or will not invite a person from Zulu heritage into your family?

    The above is certianly what Jesus would do. In the meantime I will have faith in the fact that on the Islamic judgement day, I will be judged on my actions and my actions alone, granted paradise, or sent to the hell fire for what I have done or havent done.

    Its a shame Heretical Saracen that your hatred for Islam and Muslims trumps your B.S. Catholic values. I guess you would be the Catholic version of a hizbi.

  102. Bikhair — on 21st December, 2005 at 4:15 am  

    Heretical Saracen,

    “I’m a great fan of El Cid, if it hadn’t been for the sacrifice of patriots like him, Spain would be an appendage of Morroco today.”

    Hmm a Morrocan Spain, maybe the girls would be better looking. Give em some color or is that not in fashion these days?

  103. Sunny — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:27 am  

    I don’t really care for Vikrant’s age. He could be making it up for all we know… stranger things have happened. If he’s going to act like a pompous little twit, he will of course be called one. I’m supposed to excuse him for using idiotic words like “dhimmi” and “pinko”? It’s not my fault he’s spent his time learning about the world on LGF.

  104. El Cid — on 21st December, 2005 at 9:48 am  

    The above is certianly what Jesus would do.

    Point taken Bikhair, but sometimes it is very hard to love your enemy.

  105. El Cid — on 21st December, 2005 at 10:00 am  

    And anyway, I’m not exactly religious. Being Catholic to me is more of a cultural/ethnic badge. I adopt many of the customs, did my communion, baptise my kids, light candles for the dead, etc. But I only go to church maybe once or twice every five years. I guess I’m a bad Catholic and, like the rest of the human race, aside from particularly chaste and pure souls such as yourself, a hypocrite. But then I’m human..

  106. El Cid — on 21st December, 2005 at 10:59 am  

    Mount Lebanon,
    It is true that El Cid helped in the reconquest of Spain and took the Kingdom of Valencia from the Arabic leader al-Qadir. But the city reverted to Moorish rule for more than a century after his death.
    El Cid was also a mercenary and for almost a decade fought for the Arab rulers of Zaragoza al-Mu’tamin and al-Musta’in.
    There were, in addition, many Moors in his armies.
    Another 400 years passed before the Kingdoms of Aragon and Castille were united, Granada fell, and all Moors and Jews who refused to convert to Christianity were expelled from Spain.

  107. El Cid — on 21st December, 2005 at 11:05 am  

    And Bikhair… really… have you ever been to Spain?? The women are beautiful, truly stunning. And that beauty can be seen in many parts of Latin America too, where it has blended well with other races. Spaniards can also be pretty dark, even if I’m not. Tut tut. You really must travel, see the world, embrace other peoples cultures, get out of your burkha bubble.
    Are you good looking? Will you send me a photo?

  108. Jai Singh — on 21st December, 2005 at 11:51 am  

    Bikhair,

    =>”What exactly do you agree with. Are you really going to judge the value of a person based on the performance of the particular group they belong to?”

    It may not be wise for you to call other people ‘hypocrites’ when you routinely indulge in such behaviour yourself, whether it is with regards to making sweeping comments and generalisations about “the kuffar” or, for example, assuming that Sunny has an “irrational hatred for Islam/Muslims” as a result of his Indian ancestry, as you very recently did.

    =>”In the meantime I will have faith in the fact that on the Islamic judgement day, I will be judged on my actions and my actions alone, granted paradise, or sent to the hell fire for what I have done or havent done.”

    If you genuinely believe that then I suggest you exercise much stronger restraint and vigilance upon your own actions, including your behaviour on this discussion forum. Everything counts, including the name-calling and patronising sarcasm against other commenters here which, again, you consistently indulge in.

  109. Siddharth — on 21st December, 2005 at 11:51 am  

    It’s not my fault he’s spent his time learning about the world on LGF.

    Come come Sunny. Thats being uncharitable. So have half the commentators on Harry’s Place. Sometimes we have to engage with the Logans and the OPs of the world.

  110. Jai Singh — on 21st December, 2005 at 12:04 pm  

    El Cid,

    A quick off-topic comment, but I just wanted to mention that I’ve been to Spain and found Andalucia in particular to be a beautiful part of the country; the people there seem to be very friendly too. And yes the women are beautiful too ;)

    You gotta love that whole flamenco vibe.

  111. Col. Mustafa — on 21st December, 2005 at 1:15 pm  

    Spanish chicks are hot. How could you say there not beautiful.

    So are Mexicans and Brazilians, and most South Americans.

    Ahhhh dam, italian girls are nice too.
    Yeh yeh girls are cool.

  112. Rohin — on 21st December, 2005 at 1:25 pm  

    How can she say Spanish girls need improvement? Because she’s a snob of every description, a religious snob, an aesthetics snob and moreover, a confused snob. El Cid, we don’t have to guess as to her looks as we confirmed two facts on PP – Bikhair advocates covering the face and girls who cover their face are, by default, fugly.

    Clearly she has never been to Spain. Colour in their cheeks? What the? There are plenty of Spaniards who could pass for Indians!

    Andalucia’s ok…but it’s all about the Barca babes. Ah…Spanish girls, nice memories. I said MEMORIES. My second favourite in Europe after the French.

    (In terms of hotness, you understand).

  113. El Cid — on 21st December, 2005 at 2:18 pm  

    Calm down fellahs

  114. Rohin — on 21st December, 2005 at 2:35 pm  

    Never! If every post becomes a conversation about girls…PP will have truly surpassed all my expectations.

  115. Vladimir — on 21st December, 2005 at 2:44 pm  

    In regard to the previous comments about women you are all wrong! The truth is the hottest women are from the West Indies.

  116. Col. Mustafa — on 21st December, 2005 at 3:05 pm  

    Wonder what women in hell are like, assuming there is such a place.
    I’d like to think of hell as a misunderstood social club that was visited by many ignorant sober humans a while back.
    They didn’t agree with the way things were run, and obviously gave it a bad rep from there on.
    Maybe it was even the most ultimate religion or way of life ever concieved.
    It was somewhat perfect in every way, so perfect that it even balanced out its perfectness.
    It was adaptable, funny, allowed anyone in of the right state of mind basically and most of all violence wasn’t needed.
    But the sad ones didn’t like it, it was too much for them to take.
    They believed in thier own crap, and taught us thereon that Hell is where you go to get punished.
    When infact Heaven is the hellhole. Man that place and its rules.
    Dammm, cant i just have a wank somewhere without being filmed and then put on trial for being a wanker.
    I mean theres even cameras underneath my duvet.

    Excuse me God, yeh i was just wondering. errm why is everything white in here for?
    Its kinda doing my eyes in, i physically cant see corners and doors and shit anymore, im getting quite hurt by the small accidents that seem to be happening.
    Also, how do i get rid of the Harpists? There constantly there hovering infront of me playing away at that STUPID INSTRUMENT.
    ARE THERE NO GUITARS HERE, OR BASS GUITARS OR DRUMS??????
    Im going insane god, i cant take this shit anymore; i know its only been a day but i really need a drink or something to smoke.
    PLEASEEEE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

  117. Bikhair — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:02 pm  

    Vladimir,

    “In regard to the previous comments about women you are all wrong! The truth is the hottest women are from the West Indies.”

    Lol did I mention that my family was West Indian? I was joking about the Spanish women comment. The most beautiful woman is a pious one.

  118. Bikhair — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:04 pm  

    Jai Singh (not to be confused with jay singh the non Muslim Asian)

    Yes, you are completely right about my hypocracy. Believe it or not, I actually know when I am being a hypocrite which is why I do it so often. I was really trying to make a point about the heretical Saracen.

  119. Bikhair — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:10 pm  

    El Cid,

    I have never been to Spain but I concluded, quite ignorantly and facetiously that Spanish women would be more attactive if they had mixed with Morrocan women who are oftentimes very attractive.

    InshaAllah, I will travel to Spain sometime next year as I am planning to spend Eid Al Fitr in Morroco.

    Dont mind most of my comments, unfortunately I dont have enough respect for people on this blog (except Sunny) to actually be thoughtful.

  120. FOB — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:10 pm  

    Brazilian chicks are the hottest yaar..no doubt :)

  121. Rohin — on 21st December, 2005 at 8:19 pm  

    “I actually know when I am being a hypocrite which is why I do it so often”

    Good God, the logic you seem to be using must not be of this Earth.

    “unfortunately I dont have enough respect for people on this blog (except Sunny) to actually be thoughtful”

    Excellent, I’m glad the feeling’s mutual. So now we know you don’t respect anyone here (bar one) and you now know nobody respects you (if you disagree, raise your hand), I’m sure our discussions will be FAR more fruitful. What would also help is if you learnt how to spell, hypocrate.

  122. Mount Lebanon — on 21st December, 2005 at 9:21 pm  

    Bikhair

    “What the f**k have the Zulus done in the last 500 years and on that basis you will or will not invite a person from Zulu heritage into your family?”

    Well they thrashed the Brits at Islawanda and Rourke’s Drift was a close call. Provided he left his grass skirt at the door, I would invite a Zulu into my family. I respect martial prowess, so I like the Zulu’s.

    “I will be judged on my actions and my actions alone, granted paradise.”

    And what would that be sister Bikhair, 72 male virgins fumbling with your salwar kameez.

    “Hmm a Morrocan Spain, maybe the girls would be better looking. Give em some color or is that not in fashion these days?”

    I’ve been to Spain and many girls in the south are quite dusky, which suits me fine I have always been attracted to women who in less PC times were described as ‘touched with the tar brush.’ My wife for instance is Indo-Trini and she is very dark. Where in the Carribean do your family come from?

    El Cid,

    I know the history, it’s a shame the Jews were expelled.

    Sunny

    Are you suggesting that “dhimmi” or dhimmitude are modern constructs to give Muslims and Islam a bad name?

  123. Rohin — on 22nd December, 2005 at 1:25 am  

    “And what would that be sister Bikhair, 72 male virgins fumbling with your salwar kameez.”

    What do you take Bikhair for, a hussy? Salwar?! You mean BURQA!

  124. Bikhair — on 22nd December, 2005 at 2:24 am  

    Heretical Saracen,

    Are you suggesting that the Sauds didnt earn thier Kingdom?

    “Are you suggesting that “dhimmi” or dhimmitude are modern constructs to give Muslims and Islam a bad name?”

    I prefer dhimmitude over being a tributary to some desert Hebrew.

  125. El Cid — on 22nd December, 2005 at 8:38 am  

    Dont mind most of my comments, unfortunately I dont have enough respect for people on this blog (except Sunny) to actually be thoughtful.

    Nothing to do with the fact that you are just plain thick then?

  126. El Cid — on 22nd December, 2005 at 11:25 am  

    I know the history, it’s a shame the Jews were expelled.

    Sure you do Lebs.
    You know, like the British-educated Bikhair (and jasonr on another thread), you share something in common — an intellectual dishonesty, a relentless desire to bend or cherry pick the facts to suit your weltanschauung.
    I know, I’m just stating the bleeding obvious.

  127. Geezer — on 22nd December, 2005 at 12:18 pm  

    ^^ Well said….

  128. Mount Lebanon — on 22nd December, 2005 at 6:26 pm  

    El Cid,

    And what facts am I cherry picking here? I clearly stated that it was a shame the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492, there are valid reasons for this sentiment. The Jews were less numerous than the Muslims and unlike the Muslims they were not in a state of almost constant rebellion. Remember the Moors were not expelled in 1492 they were allowed to stay in situ, it was only after repeated rebellions particularly in the Alpujarra, and the Spanish Crown’s wariness of growing Ottoman power in the western Mediterranean, that they decided to expel the remaining Muslims.
    Demographics also played a role in the decision to throw out the Muslim population. Sound harsh and by today’s standards, it certainly is. However, I would argue there are worse things than ethnic cleansing, and if you want any details on what those ‘worse things’ are, perhaps you should ask an Armenian or Assyrian Christian.

  129. Mount Lebanon — on 22nd December, 2005 at 6:53 pm  

    Bikhair,

    “Are you suggesting that the Sauds didnt earn thier Kingdom?”

    No, I just wish things had gone the other way. For instance if Muhammad had been killed at the battle of Badr, his religion would have died there on the battlefield and the world, including Arabia, would be a far nicer place. Orthodox and Nestorian Christianity with already deep roots in the peninsula would have flourished.

    “I prefer dhimmitude over being a tributary to some desert Hebrew. ”

    It’s only fair if you use a modern example. How about a black Christian in the Sudan to a Muslim Arab in the state of Israel.

  130. Col. Mustafa — on 22nd December, 2005 at 7:10 pm  

    “No, I just wish things had gone the other way. For instance if Muhammad had been killed at the battle of Badr, his religion would have died there on the battlefield and the world, including Arabia, would be a far nicer place.”

    Are you god?
    How do you know the world would of been a nicer place?
    Or you just stoned?

    “Orthodox and Nestorian Christianity with already deep roots in the peninsula would have flourished.”

    Whats your point?

  131. Mount Lebanon — on 22nd December, 2005 at 8:15 pm  

    “How do you know the world would of been a nicer place?”

    Its like making the observations that the world is a far nicer place that National Socialism was destroyed in 45, and that the West won the cold war. If Islam had been destroyed in its cradle, it would have spared the world a lot of grief. Non-Muslims (including my ancestors) who have lived under Islam would certainly think so. As Rushdie aptly termed Islam as “the words least huggable faiths.”

  132. Col. Mustafa — on 22nd December, 2005 at 8:37 pm  

    hehehe, you like digging don’t you?

    Islam or something similar would of found its way back into human minds, due to circumstance and environment just like most things do.
    Your more dumber than i thought you were if you think changing one historical event would actually stop humans from having wars, or coming up with different concepts or ways of life.

    “it would have spared the world a lot of grief. Non-Muslims (including my ancestors) who have lived under Islam would certainly think so.”

    That says it all, you would like islam as a concept, set of ideals, way of life to have never of existed due to the fact that many non muslims have died at the hands of muslims throughout history.
    hmmmm, ok then.

  133. Geezer — on 22nd December, 2005 at 8:52 pm  

    In response to post 128, Mount “Lebanon” my ill informed friend the reason why they did not expel the Muslims because they had a set plan laid out for them. Why expel people when you have the opportunity to force them into submission and make them into slaves that will serve without question.

    Ferdinand and Isabella embarked on a fairly aggressive campaign to convert Muslims in Granada and elsewhere in Castile.

    And you questioned why they revolted?

    After a revolt in Granada, in 1499-1501, Islam was outlawed in Granada in 1501 and in the rest of Castile in 1502. In the early 1520s, rebels in Valencia (part of Aragon) forcibly converted many Muslims there and in 1525-26, Islam was outlawed in all of Aragon.

    Islam was OUTLAWED wow tolerance galore, curse those Muslims for not showing gratitude.

    Many Muslims who were thus converted to Christianity–called Moriscos–resisted efforts of the Inquisition to force conformity to Christianity and there were revolts of the Moriscos in subsequent years, notably in the late 1560s. Finally, during the period 1609-1614, Moriscos were expelled from all of Spain.

  134. Sunny — on 22nd December, 2005 at 9:13 pm  

    Mount Lebanon the stupidity in your posts demonstrate that you’re a one trick pony who has little intelligence or any willingness to discuss. You just want to come here and vent your xenophobia. Please kindly fuck off.

  135. Bikhair — on 23rd December, 2005 at 8:53 pm  

    Heretical Saracen,

    “It’s only fair if you use a modern example. How about a black Christian in the Sudan to a Muslim Arab in the state of Israel.”

    This will be your first mistake and your last mistake in this regard. Muslims dont take thier religion from other Muslims. We take it from the Quran the authentic traditions, and the understanding of his noble companions. Everything else is just batil. You know what that word means right?

    “For instance if Muhammad had been killed at the battle of Badr, his religion would have died there on the battlefield and the world, including Arabia, would be a far nicer place.”

    Oh yes, what a wonderful place it would have been.

  136. Don — on 23rd December, 2005 at 9:50 pm  

    ‘Its like making the observations that the world is a far nicer place that National Socialism was destroyed in 45′

    Godwin’s Law, anybody?

  137. Bikhair — on 23rd December, 2005 at 10:34 pm  

    Heretical Saracen,

    “For instance if Muhammad had been killed at the battle of Badr, his religion would have died there on the battlefield and the world, including Arabia, would be a far nicer place.”

    Ok in Islam making those kinds of statements is a form of shirk. Secondly, religions in theory dont come to make things nice, or cute, or special. Islam came to establish Allah’s word and law on earth.

    You know if god didnt exist, I guess, the people of Soddom and Gamorrah would have been allowed to flourish, and all those calf worshipping Hebrews would have been allowed to freely pick whatever diety they wanted to worship. god doesnt care about “nicer places.”

    I will continue to use these examples because they are from your traditions which you value so much.

    Shalom Out!

  138. Don — on 24th December, 2005 at 1:32 am  

    So, Bikhair, are you going to wish us all a Merry Christmas?

    For myself, may the coming year bring you peace.

  139. Bikhair — on 24th December, 2005 at 8:27 am  

    Don,

    I hope for you guys truth, and emaan, and peace. Thanks Don…

  140. Mount Lebanon — on 25th December, 2005 at 6:10 pm  

    Geezer

    “Many Muslims who were thus converted to Christianity–called Moriscos–resisted efforts of the Inquisition to force conformity to Christianity and there were revolts of the Moriscos in subsequent years, notably in the late 1560s. Finally, during the period 1609-1614, Moriscos were expelled from all of Spain.”

    Should I put on a hair shirt and pray for Penance? These Moors are lucky they escped with their lives.

  141. Mount Lebanon — on 25th December, 2005 at 6:28 pm  

    Sunny,

    I just re-read my last couple of posts, could you please demonstrate that I’m a “one trick pony”. Moreover, could you please explain how you have come to the conclusion that I am a zenophobe, have I demonstrated any hint racism in my posts, or do you consider Muslims a race? I’m Arab, and I don’t like Islam and its pedoliphic prophet. I might be what you people call an Islamaphob, but considering my peoples history I have good reason to be. I have met Hindu’s, Sikhs and Non-Muslim Africans who pretty well mirror my views on Islam, are these people zenophobes too?

  142. Jai Singh — on 25th December, 2005 at 7:21 pm  

    Mount Lebanon,

    This may be a good time for me to interject with a few points from my own perspective:

    You have every right to dislike — indeed, condemn — certain aspects of Islam and/or the behaviour of its founder if you genuinely think you have a valid moral reason to do so; conversely, one would expect Muslims (or non-Muslims) to also wish to defend those aspects if they themselves genuinely agree with them. The viewpoint of both sides is equally justified in such situations, as long as both parties are being ruthlessly honest in their own thinking, with “truth” being the priority, and do not lie or distort any of the relevant facts or logical sequences of thought (either internally or in their arguments with the opposing party).

    It would, however, be wise to refrain from making any blanket statements generalising or condemning all/most Muslims “en masse”. Not all Muslims necessarily have the same interpretation of Islam, either in the present day or historically. There is also a world of difference between orthodox Islam in its most conservative form, and (for example) Sufism. It would therefore be in your benefit to make sure you always clarify exactly which interpretation of Islam you are addressing when making any critical and potentially controversial statements.

    Furthermore, do not fall into the trap of ascribing “collective responsibility/guilt ” to present or historical Muslims (I don’t know how much knowledge you have of Indian history but, for example, there are precedents for various Muslim historical figures taking up arms and/or joining certain non-Muslim revolutionary forces against Muslim political/military leaders perpetrating exactly the kind of allegedly-religiously-sanctioned atrocities that you have been condemning yourself). I am just saying all this in the spirit of friendly advice, from the perspective of a (hopefully objective) third-party.

    I should also take this opportunity to clarify that Sunny and Jay Singh’s behaviour towards yourself and other parties who have — rightly or wrongly — questioned the actions and associated tenets of certain Islamic religious figures is certainly not in line with the core tenets of Sikhism. It is also important to state that Sikhism itself, as a religion, takes a different stance in some aspects towards these matters. The Sikh Gurus themselves explicitly spoke out against many of the attitudes and practices originating in the more conservative and orthodox interpretations of Islam, including large sections of Shariah Law, and including a number of areas which you (and previously Old Pickler) have also attacked. They were significantly more well-disposed towards Sufism and many of the sect’s saints (whose writings are also included in Sikh scriptures). I need to emphasise this in case you start to misinterpret the actions of certain PP participants from a supposedly-Sikh background as actually being an accurate reflection of Sikh principles and the religion’s (and its historical Gurus’) stance on the more controversial aspects of Islam.

    This blog is an informative source of debate and information, and I particularly like Rohin who I am also familar with from the American “Sepia Mutiny” blog. However, one problem I have often encountered here is that “the truth” is sometimes a casualty at the altar of well-meaning-but-excessive political correctness — with the result that unpalatable facts, even if authentic, are stamped upon and the potential for subsequent honest debate is stifled. There also appears to be an excessive bias towards Islam — which does not mean that I condone a knee-jerk anti-Islamic attitude either, but ideally the stance should be neutral, rather than reactions which often cross the line into hysteria. (It’s almost like the polar opposite of Fox News — taking a diametrically-opposite view of Islam, but using the same tactics).

    This is particularly unfortunate, not to mention somewhat curious, if the most aggressive and vocal perpetrators are supposedly not Muslims themselves. It’s the primary reason why I do not participate on PP very often; and it’s also the reason why I predominantly go for Sepia Mutiny instead, as it allows more honest, balanced, cool-headed, and clear-thinking debates, even regarding highly-sensitive religious issues. Somewhat ironic, considering that the US is regarded as the home of excessive political correctness.

  143. Jai Singh — on 25th December, 2005 at 7:23 pm  

    Mount Lebanon,

    This may be a good time for me to interject with a few points from my own perspective.

    You have every right to dislike — indeed, condemn — certain aspects of Islam and/or the behaviour of its founder if you genuinely think you have a valid moral reason to do so; conversely, one would expect Muslims (or non-Muslims) to also wish to defend those aspects if they themselves genuinely agree with them. The viewpoint of both sides is equally justified in such situations, as long as both parties are being ruthlessly honest in their own thinking, with “truth” being the priority, and do not lie or distort any of the relevant facts or logical sequences of thought (either internally or in their arguments with the opposing party).

    It would, however, be wise to refrain from making any blanket statements generalising or condemning all/most Muslims “en masse”. Not all Muslims necessarily have the same interpretation of Islam, either in the present day or historically. There is also a world of difference between orthodox Islam in its most conservative form, and (for example) Sufism. It would therefore be in your benefit to make sure you always clarify exactly which interpretation of Islam you are addressing when making any critical and potentially controversial statements.

    Furthermore, do not fall into the trap of ascribing “collective responsibility/guilt ” to present or historical Muslims (I don’t know how much knowledge you have of Indian history but, for example, there are precedents for various Muslim historical figures taking up arms and/or joining certain non-Muslim revolutionary forces against Muslim political/military leaders perpetrating exactly the kind of allegedly-religiously-sanctioned atrocities that you have been condemning yourself). I am just saying all this in the spirit of friendly advice, from the perspective of a (hopefully objective) third-party.

    I should also take this opportunity to clarify that Sunny and Jay Singh’s behaviour towards yourself and other parties who have — rightly or wrongly — questioned the actions and associated tenets of certain Islamic religious figures is certainly not in line with the core tenets of Sikhism. It is also important to state that Sikhism itself, as a religion, takes a different stance in some aspects towards these matters. The Sikh Gurus themselves explicitly spoke out against many of the attitudes and practices originating in the more conservative and orthodox interpretations of Islam, including large sections of Shariah Law, and including a number of areas which you (and previously Old Pickler) have also attacked. They were significantly more well-disposed towards Sufism and many of the sect’s saints (whose writings are also included in Sikh scriptures). I need to emphasise this in case you start to misinterpret the actions of certain PP participants from a supposedly-Sikh background as actually being an accurate reflection of Sikh principles and the religion’s (and its historical Gurus’) stance on the more controversial aspects of Islam.

    This blog is an informative source of debate and information, and I particularly like Rohin who I am also familar with from the American “Sepia Mutiny” blog. However, one problem I have often encountered here is that “the truth” is sometimes a casualty at the altar of well-meaning-but-excessive political correctness — with the result that unpalatable facts, even if authentic, are stamped upon and the potential for subsequent honest debate is stifled. There also appears to be an excessive bias towards Islam — which does not mean that I condone a knee-jerk anti-Islamic attitude either, but ideally the stance should be neutral, rather than reactions which often cross the line into hysteria. (It’s almost like the polar opposite of Fox News — taking a diametrically-opposite view of Islam, but using the same tactics).

    This is particularly unfortunate, not to mention somewhat curious, if the most aggressive and vocal perpetrators are supposedly not Muslims themselves. It’s the primary reason why I do not participate on PP very often; and it’s also the reason why I predominantly go for Sepia Mutiny instead, as it allows more honest, balanced, cool-headed, and clear-thinking debates, even regarding highly-sensitive religious issues. Somewhat ironic, considering that the US is regarded as the home of excessive political correctness.

  144. Geezer — on 25th December, 2005 at 11:58 pm  

    Should I put on a hair shirt and pray for Penance? These Moors are lucky they escped with their lives. [Mount Lebanon]

    True but had they been in your hands they would have been outright killed. By the way a great many were slaughtered as well so much for your “expulsions”…

  145. Mount Lebanon — on 27th December, 2005 at 1:18 am  

    Geezer.

    Where have I advocated genocide in any of my posts? Many Muslims did die in the exulsions, but the vast majority did not. Even the late French historian Fernand Braudel who was quite objective when it came to Islam, states in his excellent two volume Medierranean studies that no more than 20,000 were killed in the fighting during the five year period of the expulsions A lot of bodies yes, but definately not genocide and indeed a lot fewer than what the Muslims were responsible for during their conquest of the Iberian peninsula.

  146. insurance life policy sucide — on 26th March, 2006 at 5:29 am  

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  147. low cost health insurance alternative — on 7th April, 2006 at 6:46 pm  

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