Driven to the BNP?


by Sunny
30th May, 2008 at 3:45 pm    

“Voting for the BNP is a deliberate decision: you are not “driven” to it any more than a car drives itself. It is a decision to allow self-pity to influence your vote and to disguise it as righteous anger,” says Linsey Hanley in the Guardian today. I happen to agree, and would argue the same applies to Muslims seduced by Islamist and more violent terrorist organisations.

But here’s the question: How do you deal with the BNP or Islamist party if they attract significant numbers of votes? Do you acknowledge their existence because its democracy at work? Or do you say the voters are stupid, should be in a mental institution, and pretend the election didn’t happen?

And that’s just the parties. What do you with the voters? Is everyone who votes for a racist party or sympathises with an Islamist party a lunatic in danger of harming others? Do you lock them up as a precaution? Or do you say there’s a problem with the system that makes those parties the only protest option?

Are these voters then beyond the pale? Should they be branded with a big swastika sign somewhere so w we’re aware of the fascists among our midst? After all, over 5% of voters in the London Mayoral elections voted for the BNP. One in 44 Londoners is an active fascist voter. Should the national media ignore these people for making such monumentally stupid electoral decisions?


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  1. Doug — on 30th May, 2008 at 4:01 pm  

    The only way to deal with parties like the BNP is to address the discontent that they inevitably feed off. The BNP’s key to success in recent years has been to focus on issues where there is often some legitimate discontent, and illegitimately blame it on immigration.

    Council housing is perhaps the best example. It’s very difficult to get on social housing lists at present, because so many houses have been sold off since Thatcher and left unreplaced. This affects immigrants as much as it does anyone else – the bulk of immigrants rent from private landlords, if I remember correctly. And yet the BNP blames it on immigrants, and certain groups listen, simply because no other party appears to be addressing those concerns.

    The answer is thus not to ban the fascists – which will drive them underground rather than destroy them – but to address in rational terms the concerns which lead to certain groups voting for the BNP. Build more council houses, and leave them open to everyone – a roof is, after all, a right. The BNP will lose its support base, and promptly disappear from mainstream politics.

    Johann Hari put it better than me a couple of weeks ago in the Indy, I think. I’ll try and find the article…

  2. Gege — on 30th May, 2008 at 5:35 pm  

    It is interesting how people often advise that we should drain the pool of discontent from which the BNP feeds.

    Would they also advise that we drain the pool of discontent from which Islamists feed?

  3. Dalbir — on 30th May, 2008 at 5:46 pm  

    —-
    Should the national media ignore these people for making such monumentally stupid electoral decisions?
    —-

    Lumpen sections of the national media (read Sun, Mail etc.) are actually responsible for creating an atmosphere where the whiners amongst us can “let go” and vote BNP.

    I think this is a nation of whingers now. With all the progress made by society, many indig’ people here still can’t see anything but doom and gloom. What can you do about that?

  4. Dan — on 30th May, 2008 at 6:09 pm  

    I don’t agree. It’s worth making the point that the BNP don’t always do best in the most deprived areas (in Burnley, for instance, it’s in more middle class areas IIRC) but, for those voters that do vote for them, it’s not the case that such a decision exists in a vacuum. One thing that I have never understood about the left (and I include myself as a leftie) is the way that poor people turning disproportionately to (certain) crimes is conceived of as partly being a social problem, while voting for the BNP, or holding racist views is not at all. I consider them both to have profound social causes and are not simply motivated by some stupidity/callousness which is innate to those who are poorer, or which exhibits itself disproportionately in those who are poorer.

    The BNP speak a left-of-centre economic message. They create myths about immigration, which feed on the genuine (if often irrational) fears that poorer people have. They feed on lies that the media peddle and which other parties, to their utter shame, also run with. They cover up their neo-Nazi underlying aims with words like “democracy”, “equality” etc.. Although this facade of respectability is not always the only reason for their success, they do often come across as a respectable alternative to the main parties by whom plenty of (often poorer) people feel let down. Given that left alternatives to the BNP are pretty thin on the ground, and given that absolute drivel regarding immigration is peddled daily by the popular press, it should be no surprise that they should pick up plenty of protest votes. I think the caveats with which you agree with Hanley’s article pretty much makes this point, but it calls into question whether you should be agreeing with it at all.

    One slight aside on this – in the days before this year’s local elections in Sunderland (my hometown), I noticed, while browsing lists of candidates in the town’s wards, that the BNP were standing candidates who had stood one year earlier for the November 9th Society’s British First Party (open Hitler-worshippers whose party is named after Kristallnacht/the Beer Hall Putsch). I contacted the local papers, none of whom were interested in a story that clearly demonstrated that at least two of the party’s candidates had stood for parties that openly praised Hitler. The media don’t always help. They’re often quick to scream DON’T VOTE BNP and carry (often unhelpful) stories from mainstream political parties who in unison put forward the same message, but less quick to actually do some fucking journalism on the topic.

  5. Raul — on 30th May, 2008 at 8:31 pm  

    The whole ‘root cause’ business defies logic and has run its course even among the more credulous elements. Making excuses for fanatics and bigots will ultimately get you grappling with useless diversions like why people vote for BNP. The simple reason is they choose to and that indicates an acceptance on some level of the BNP’s far from savoury agenda and views.

    Ultimately there are root causes for everything but you can choose how to respond to it, like a civilized person, group, society or descend into xenophobia and mindless violence. And there are always groups and individuals willing to exploit and feed off resentment and general dissatisfaction by manufacturing it if necessary.

    The problem is this case is not the BNP but the failure of the successive government to address issues working classes face. Maybe that would be a more useful debate, not why people are voting for BNP but whether the government is adequately addressing working class issues. But there will always be disaffected individuals who the BNP or islamists will feed off no matter what you do.

  6. Don — on 30th May, 2008 at 8:32 pm  

    It seems improbable but a fair number of people who vote BNP are not aware of it’s virulent racism. I recall one case (can’t track it down right now) of a woman who was persuaded to stand as a BNP coucil candidate, won her seat and only later realised who she had alligned herself with. She switched to independent and campaigned against them.

    To most of us here, I guess anti-fascism and ingrained hostility to the NF/BNP is as natural as breathing, but their drive to seem respectable has been in part successful.

    Dan makes some very good points. They have the right to be heard, but they need to be shown for what they are. It may seem obvious to us that they are racist scum, but the facade of sweet reason is taking people in and if the countervailing message isn’t getting through we should ask why.

    If someone is conscious of what the BNP really is and actively supports it they are pretty much beyond redemption, but being uninformed, confused and worried is not a moral failing.

  7. Dalbir — on 30th May, 2008 at 10:30 pm  

    I think wider societies signals (both implicit and explicit) play a large part in this drama.

    It is the media with their constant scaremongering and xenophobic rhetoric which makes large sections of people lurch in that rightward direction. We DO have a seriously negative popular press and one, I dare say, that hides racist agendas in its midst. This okays general people to hold and foster views which would otherwise be considered intolerable because it is made to have an acceptable appearance.

    Ultimately once society or more accurately mass media gives an impression that such views are acceptable and felt by many, the snowball starts rolling and growing.

    What is sad is that successive governments, instead of allaying and addressing the concerns of poorer white people, have ignored them. This gives the BNP its base support. But another factor we should not forget is that many people ARE racist and harbor hatred towards “others” or particular others. Once such people’s views are given some level of credence in society they will push their beliefs. This is what is happening in my opinion.

    The people who suffer the most are innocent immigrants and their offspring.

    Another key concern is that even if the BNP have left their old ways behind them, if they continue to rise, more violent elements will become emboldened and some of us know where that ultimately ends up on a ground level.

    Sorry for the rambling!

  8. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 7:15 am  
  9. unitalian — on 31st May, 2008 at 7:35 am  

    There are some interesting and thoughtful responses to the CIF article (and here, of course).

    No doubt it engendered lots of encouraging nods in the Guardian newsroom – finally a way to legitimise ignoring the concerns of the WWC – but the fact remains the BNP are not going away, and are growing.

    I don’t know why you call them fascists Sunny – there is no evidence they are, like many Islamists, opposed to democracy in itself. Racists, yes, “fascists”, no. It’s a bit Rick, is it not?

    Indeed, I suspect the BNP would rather like considerably MORE democracy, like PR for example.

    You “deal” with the BNP by honestly asking yourself why. For example, could there possibly be a link between the non-consultation of the British voter vis immigration and the subsequent vote (by a tiny minority) for the only party that opposes it?

    It’s hardly rocket science. Maybe some people would just have liked to have been asked first.

    Massive efforts have been made to engineer the British culture over the past 50 years (multiculturalism anyone?) yet at no point have the voters had the opportunity to vote for any party opposed to it other than the racist one.

    Apart from perceived problems about housing (and the shift to allocation according to need that broke up some WWC communities) and all the rest, you could do worse than start with the democratic deficit, even if the BNP are not, strictly anti-democratic ;-)

  10. Fred Jones — on 31st May, 2008 at 8:13 am  

    I’ve been waiting for at least 20 years for this situation – where the selfrighteous, sanctimonious, politically correct, lefty Marxists who have hijacked the media to spread their poisonous multicultural/multiracial agenda are now in a cleft stick. Let us hope our years of humbug from the likes of the Grauniad and their parasitic fellow travellers are coming to an end and nationalism (in the form of the wonderful British National Party) sweeps them all away. If I were in charge I would suspend the salaries of many non productive “workers” in the bloated state sector and the media – they deserve to starve (that will do for a start).

  11. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 8:47 am  
  12. unitalian — on 31st May, 2008 at 8:49 am  

    Ok, well maybe they are fascists!

  13. Golam Murtaza — on 31st May, 2008 at 9:51 am  

    How many tired cliches can ‘Fred Jones’ fit in a sentence? Quite a lot, it would seem.

  14. MaidMarian — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:25 am  

    Four thoughts –

    1) The BNP get it too easy. They want to talk about one thing and one thing only which is immigration. Wven when they do raise other issues they pivot it back to immigration. No real scrutiny is applied to their thinking, probably because very few (even of their voters) have ever read their manifesto. What they are talking about is an unfunded pig-in-a-poke.

    2) Just because certain groups, be it white working class, muslims, BME etc feel hard done by doesn’t actually mean that they are. My instinct is that some of this is the politics of self-indulgence rather than hate per se. Brutally, some of these voters need to have it pointed out to them that politicians and government do not exist to legislate for personal prejudices.

    3) The BNP do not want to win elections. They want to place themselves in the best position to foment social discord and use politics as a method. Anything they win is a bonus.

    4) Religion needs to be sucked out of politics. Granted, the BNP existed before 9/11 brough islam to the fore in politics. Indeed, my grandad was an anit-NF activist when he was in the unions. That said, stridency breeds stridency. My feeling is that some of the rise of the BNP is a response (rational or otherwise) to the rise of other extremists including Islam. Give the BNP nothing to react to and the job of taking them on becomes easier.

  15. billericaydicky — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:43 am  

    Golam Murtuza,

    I am afraid Fred Jones has a point even if he does sound like a BNP supporter. Myself and other people involved in work against the BNP and other far right groups have been banging on for years that if you keep forcing a total false concept of a multicultural society down people’s throats eventually there will be a backlash.

    That backlash has now arrived but is containable for two reasons. I have pointed out here before that the powers that be have decided that the possibility of a party of the far right of European proportions is a far greater threat than the one posed by criticism from the race industry and “black”militants. The CRE has been shut down and Lee Jasper and his fellow crooks are helping Inspector Knacker with his enquiries.

    This article,as I have said on CiF, is a load of rubbish and my views can be seen there. The Guardian is mounting a last ditch defense of the multiculti industry and digs up an ever increasing supply of totally obscure academics to do so. Does anybody know who Lindsay Hanley is or why she is qualified to abuse white working people?

    What the Guardian needs to do is look at the rubbish it has spouted for years and address the fact that it is totally out of touch with its own readers.

    Multi culturalism is dead, or rather the industry that leeched big salaries from it is, the actual thing was a massive financial fraud that never really existed outside of the hundreds of quangos,think tanks and equality consultancies.

    The second reason why the BNP are being held is that there is the biggest most organised resistance to them that I have seen in the forty years that I have been involved in the movement. I have posted here before that the whole thing must be put in perspective. To only get ten seats from the six hundred and fifty contested nationally and to increase the London vote by a half of one per cent is not exactly a breakthrough.

    Lindsey Hanley and co are drowning not waving, the game is up but the Guardianistas will not admit that they were wrong and are now being dumped.

  16. douglas clark — on 31st May, 2008 at 11:46 am  

    billericaydicky,

    If this BBC opinion poll is to be believed:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7352125.stm

    almost 64% of folk in the UK think that (racial) tension will lead to inter ethnic violence. If folk really believe that then the utter failure of the BNP to capitalise on it speaks volumes. Remembering that their vote hovers around the 5% mark.

  17. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 12:19 pm  

    Dalbir,

    Indeed, and the effluent media also make it acutely difficult for politicians (or anybody else) to engage with the public. The Mail et al. propogate falsities or create false roots for legitimate problems, and therefore it’s impossible to directly address invalid fears.

    Fred Jones (or should I call you Robert Kilroy Silk?),

    I’ll assume that you were joking. Could anybody really call a party run by a holocaust denier, founded by a Nazi and staffed by fellows who want to ‘machine-gun muslims’ wonderful?

    billericaydicky,

    What do you imagine to be ‘the race industry’?

    Douglas,

    The poll does seem a little ambiguous. Citizens could take ‘inter ethnic violence’ to mean anything from inner-city gangs to national race riots.

  18. billericaydicky — on 31st May, 2008 at 12:26 pm  

    MaidMarion,

    Just read your post. You are still convinced that the BNP do not want to win elections,why? Their whole strategy is to try and do exactly that,they have no other tactic at the moment.

    About twenty years ago the leadership looked at what they were doing wrong and decided to abandon the tactics of marches and demonstrations which only led to clashes with the left and bad publicity.

    It was ironic that when the French Front National was formed in 1974 they came to London to talk to John Tyndall and Martin Webster, the leaders of the NF, about how to form a mass party of the far right so much progress were our own home grown nazis making.

    With the collapse of the NF after the 1979 election when Thatcher stole their vote there was a long period of reflection and splitting into many factions. Several different types of alternative tactics and strategies were tried until by the early eighties they committed themselves to the ballot box and community campaigning on local issues.

    Two good examples of this was the “Rights for Whites” campaign in the East End and a similar one which has just brought them success in Stoke on Trent. The East London campaign was about how the local authority was favouring Bangladeshis over local whites in housing. It wasn’t in fact true but it got them their first ever candidate elected on the Isle of Dogs in 1993.

    They have just run a similar campaign in Stoke by going around and talking to people about what concerns them over issues like repairs to houses,litter,post office closures all of the things that directly affect people lives in an immediate way.

    In far too many parts of the country local councillors are more concerned with collecting their allowances and doing as little as possible. Some communities never see the Labour Party except during elections whereas the BNP will go around knocking on doors and getting things done.

    What has also happened is that many Labour Parties around the country are now largely made up of middle class left wingers who may have moved into the area from outside and work in local goverment,legal services, or as social workers, solicitors etc. Many of them will have moved to the party from other more extreme left wing groups and have a political outlook and philosophy totally different to that of the people they represent.

    I have seen many times at public meetings over a local issue how the left wing councillor will flounder under questioning and the BNP group spread around the hall will be totally in tune with the local sentiment which very often they have manipulated.

    All this of course leads up to the local election where the BNP will swamp the area with activists bussed in while Labour struggle to even canvass because their activist base has declined so much over recent years.

    It was interesting that this article by Sunny was sparked by the stupid one in the Guardian by Linsey Hanley. I went back to look at the posts and they are almost entirely hostile proving that the staff of the Guardian, like the Labour Party locally and nationally, are totally out of touch with the mood of white working class people. Hanley seems to be saying if we deny they exist then they won’t vote for the nasty BNP.

    Talk about sticking your head in the sand. Still, if you are now proved to be wrong about everything to with race that you have been saying for thirty years there is not much else that you can do.

    There is an interesting little anecdote that will illustrate what I mean. One of the great and the good who is always appearing in the Guardian is Polly Toynbee. At the elections in 2006 where the BNP took 12 seats in Barking and Dagenham the Barking MP Margaret Hodge couldn’t get anyone to campaign in her constituency because she was so unpopular. She never turned up to do anything and when she went to canvass she imported all her pals from the Islington cafe latte set one of which was Toynbee.

    Polly couldn’t understand why she was the subject of a torrent of abuse every time she knocked on a door of a white person. The assumption was that these were traditional Labour voters who could all be relied upon to vote as they always had. The world was changing but Polly and co cocooned in their Guardianista mind set jus couldn’t deal with the reality.

    They departed back to Islington where Hodge made her famous comments about a third of London being ready to vote BNP. That gave them at least six of their seats. Hodge proves the old adage ” always engage brain before opening mouth”.

  19. billericaydicky — on 31st May, 2008 at 1:06 pm  

    Douglas Clark,
    Yes interesting survey and contained lower down the article are the figures that only 3% of those interviewed described themselves as very racially prejudiced as compared to 79% who said they were not.

    I for one am concerned about the possibility of outbreaks of violence and I am sure that the majority of those sharing my concerns are not actual or potential BNP voters.

    Racial violence can take many forms and not just in the riots in those northern cities back in 2001. I know of white families that have been forced off east London estates by Bangladeshi gangs who are also into drug dealing and the control of prostitutes. This is exactly the reverse of when white gangs did the same to Bangladeshis in the 1970s.

    There are a number of growing areas of concern in the country of incidents involving gangs of non white youth attacking and even killing whites for being in what they see as their areas.

    There has been an undercurrent of anti white sentiment amongst the African Caribbean elite in this country for years. When he was editor of the magazine Race Today Darcus Howe said that when black youth mugged whites it was a revolutionary act! And the Guardian ” Journalist” Joseph Harker is on record as saying all whites are racist.

    I am encouraged though by the way that the Lee Jaspers have been sidetracked. We are seeing a new realism in attitudes to race and many of those polled will have been non white people who are as concerned about the effects of continuing immigration as whites.

    It is interesting that the very racially prejudiced 3% roughly equals the BNP vote in London. One area of concern is Barking and Dagenham where a ward by ward breakdown of the London vote shows that if an election was held there tomorrow the BNP would control the council.

  20. ZinZin — on 31st May, 2008 at 1:27 pm  

    How long is Billericay dickhead going to get away with his the left have shafted the WWC spiel? Was he in a coma when thatcher was destroying traditional WWC communities?

  21. douglas clark — on 31st May, 2008 at 2:08 pm  

    BenSix,

    I’d agree the poll is ambiguous. Which is why I couched my comments in such a wishy washy way :-)

    My point is merely that the electorate, as a whole, do not see the BNP as the answer to their concerns – whether these concerns are outright race war or gang war or some idiot happy slapping them.

    billericaydicky

    I agree with you that some of the respondents to that Poll will have been from ethnic minorities and they have identical worries to others.

    I think Darcus Howe is a very angry person, and with some justification. I used to read his columns in the New Statesman, and if half of what he said was true – and I have no reason to think they were not – I’d be fizzing mad too. Though if he can be quoted in the way you say then he truly has lost the plot.

    You should address ZinZins’ rather to the point comment. The destruction of much WWC culture, or at least the jobs that supported it, was undertaken during the Thatcher era, and was class driven, I think. At least in the sense that they got the destructive bit right and kind of forgot about the creative bit.

  22. unitalian — on 31st May, 2008 at 3:50 pm  

    “Was he in a coma when thatcher was destroying traditional WWC communities?”

    Some of them maybe, but others flocked to her, which is why “the left” has never forgiven them. Buy their own council houses indeed! Don’t they know what’s good for them?! One thing you can be sure the Guardianistas never forgave – the “loadsamoney” culture which, for all its faults, gave certain WWC folk ideas above their station.

  23. Dalbir — on 31st May, 2008 at 5:13 pm  

    Thought this may be of interest. Take a look at the people’s comments especially if you get time.

  24. Dalbir — on 31st May, 2008 at 5:13 pm  
  25. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 5:56 pm  
  26. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 5:58 pm  

    unitalian,

    Sorry, but it’s hard to take seriously anybody who uses terms like “the left” and “Guardistinias”. I sympathise with you, however, against insults.

    Incidentally, although the BNP chooses to act through democratic means, many of their councillors, staff and activists don’t, as evidenced by documentaries such as ‘The Secret Agent’ and ‘Young, Nazi and Proud’. I believe most of us faintly facetiously call them fascists because they so patently identify with them.

    Dilbar,

    Obviously there’s no excuse for the killing but…wow…

    The BNP have a repulsive line in manipulating deaths. I recommend this post from The Tory Troll as an indication of the ‘public concerns’ of Richard Barnbrook: http://torytroll.blogspot.com/2008/05/richard-barnbrook-stokes-fears-after.html

  27. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 6:04 pm  

    Flipside,

    Oooh, are we posting videos of Herr Griffin? This is a good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk

  28. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 6:12 pm  

    1997?

  29. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 6:18 pm  
  30. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 6:43 pm  

    WEll, Flipside, could you point me to where Nick Griffin retracts his Holocaust statments? And could you give me information of a link between the hard drugs trade and Islam?

    Incidentally, what do you think of Nick Griffin’s friendship with Jean-Marie Le Pen, a Holocaust revisionist who believes in the “inequality of races”?

    What do you think of Griffin calling Islam a “wicked and vicious faith”?

    And what do you think of Mark Collett saying that AIDS is a “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it”?

    Have you seen The Secret Agent and Young, Nazi And Proud? If not then they’re both on youtube.

    Before you defend the BNP, you should really research them. People might start drawing assumptions.

  31. flipside — on 31st May, 2008 at 7:03 pm  

    I’ll have a look,see what i can find.I don’t think anything of Nick Griffin’s friendship with Jean-Marie Le Pen and i think Islam is a wicked and vicious faith,as for people making assumptions,thats thier choice,please give me a link on Collett.Maybe its on the young nazi etc ect,I’ll take a look.

  32. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:27 pm  

    Be sure to watch Young, Nazi and Proud and The Secret Agent; they’re both excellent exposes.

  33. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:40 pm  

    You should, incidentally, think much of Griffin’s alliance with Le Pen. They’re joined in mutual prejudice; both imbued with a strain of fundamentalist nationalism that causes them to loathe minorities. Among Griffin’s other associates are David Duke, one time leader of the Ku Klux Klan, and Muammar al-Gaddafi who needs no introduction.

    I’ll assume that your silence regarding Islam’s connection to the hard drugs trade is evidence that you could not substantiate it. Don’t blithely accept Griffin’s propaganda.

    Young, Nazi And Proud: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOwzVOJacg
    The Secret Agent:
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=__DdFiV7aT8

  34. Dalbir — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:42 pm  

    You know what makes me most sick about these BNP/NF nazis is that they ACTUALLY believe it is a part of English culture to abuse, threaten and attack non whites without reprisals!?!?!

    If any of you tossers are reading this – you will fucking get your head cracked like in the 70s and 80s if you try and start you jackboot shit up again.

    Have you wankers heard of humanity?

  35. BenSix — on 31st May, 2008 at 10:57 pm  

    It’s probably better to suggest intense scrutiny than head cracking, Dalbir.

  36. Monty — on 31st May, 2008 at 11:25 pm  

    You are obsessing about the BNP, as if they were some kind of aberration you could wipe out, and all would be well. It gives you an easy ride so you cling to that crutch, but it is illusory. It is not the increased support of the BNP that is significant. It is the collapse of mutual trust between the races in this society.

    And now someone is going to tell me that that situation is all the fault of the indigenous white British and everyone else is blameless. Go on, you know you want to….

  37. Dalbir — on 31st May, 2008 at 11:57 pm  

    Personally I never believed that racism disappeared after the 70s and 80s. Rather it was dispersed through white flight when the nazis started to get some retaliation from the 2nd generation for their acts. Previously the 1st “asian” generation generally bore the abuse timidly. The late 80s and early 90s saw an end to this. As a result, nazis moved from mixed neighborhoods to white ones.

    So it was always waiting to make a come back from this retreat. What you may be seeing is actually this. Also, as surprising as this may seem, some people (i.e. liberals) need to realise that there are people out there that simply do not like people who look different from them walking around this country – its about as simple as that. These are the people to watch. Whereas the disgruntled can be pacified by meeting their needs – this other section won’t be happy until they are freely allowed to “bash” and murder immigrants and their offspring with impunity.

    I DO blame some indigenous people for a large part of this mess. Asides from trying treat people like second rate scum and making them withdraw into their communities with consequences we are seeing today. They have also stood by and watched an attempt to ressurect the wanky British empire through the actions of Messr. Blair. What did you expect to happen after that? The days of invading people’s land with impunity are over.

    I have to confess to being somewhat biased by a Sikh perspective where, from what I see, most people DO actually mix and integrate with the indigenous. Share their culture and participate in the British way of life (probably because of a mutual love of alcohol in subsections of both communities – Sunny enjoy your piss up!).

    I don’t know what white people are moaning about? What do you want – everything easy on a plate?? As working class, we all have to graft for our things. What do they want – an easy life?

    As for the cultural destruction argument. Well who is to blame for globalisation? I know it isn’t anyone of colour. Besides, given the havoc British culture/imperialism has created all over the globe, it is rich to hear about the destruction of British culture from them. I mean, who is stopping you living your own culture? Really, can you not go to football match anymore or the pub? Or whatever else you think makes Britishness.

    All of us are in the same boat because of globalisation. We are ALL looking at serious changes in our cultures as a result. What is pathetic is that Anglo-Saxons, being such a powerful force behind globalisation, are now moaning about it so much.

  38. MaidMarian — on 1st June, 2008 at 12:22 am  

    billericaydicky –

    1) I should have been more specific. I beleive that the BNP do not have winning elections as a first and foremost priority. They want to win, but I bwlieve that they see wins as a bonus rather than as an end-point.

    2) Please can you define what exactly you mean by ‘white working class.’

  39. BenSix — on 1st June, 2008 at 1:48 am  

    flipside,

    If clicking on this virulently prejudiced site is what it takes to satisfy you then fair enough. It ain’t safe for work, guys.

    Showing that some muslims import heroin is not enough to castigate ‘muslim immigration’. Drugs, as this* map helpfully shows, are brought into the country from Columbia, Jamaica, the Netherlands and multifarious other nations.

    You might say that this is a problem of mass immigration, but really it’s the consequence of liberal policies towards international importation as well as illegal smuggling*, which is difficult to counter.

    The blog that you link to makes heavy use of a logical fallacy known as the bare assertion fallacy, which essentially means that it asserts propositions under the assumption that they’re true. In this case, we are led to believe that luton-based muslims are drug-addicted bastards merely because Lionheart says that it is so.

    It is amusing to see that – after reams of ranting at immigration – Lionheart also claims that he/she is ‘better off seeking asylum in a friendly foreign land’. Surely you can see the irony there? What is not at all funny is that he/she goes on to speculate ‘can we not give them a war?’. The views of ‘Lionheart’ are wildly more frightening than the average muslim, I assure you flipside.

    * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/drugs_uk/drugs_map/html/default.stm

    * http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugculture/drugstrade/howdoesitgethere

  40. halima — on 1st June, 2008 at 6:31 am  

    define indigenous people?

    Interesting how certain campaigns by the BNP in the 1980s in the Isle of Dogs in East London – using some analagy from the indigenous and near extinct groups in North America finally ends up in language used by non-BNP folks in the UK these days.

  41. flipside — on 1st June, 2008 at 9:10 am  

    I work in construction,I live in the Luton area,two things my wages and work have suffered because of mass-immigration,the stories of Eastern Europeans living 10 to a house are true,they can live on less wages when they share the bills,we can’t compete,I don’t blame them for walking through an open door,I blame the government.People around here know who’s behind 90% of the smack on the streets and they see the constant appeasement of islam,even down to changing the name of the Bingo hall because they didn’t like it,drugs are a big problem and other drugs do find there way here from other places but heroin in the Luton area is conrolled by the muslim gangs.Dalbir I don’t think we should be in Afghanistan or Iraq,I thing they are both illegal wars. people are turning to the BNP because of their stance on immigration, their politically incorrect aproach to islam,their view on the EU (love Europe hate the EU),they know the foreign wars are illegal and they would bring the troops home, they have a common sense aproach to most things,the only people to blame for their growing support is the mainstream parties,people haven’t become skinheads over night and nothing I’ve seen on their site has been racist or fascist,politically incorrect(good thing) but not racist. tho I did watch the link on Mark Collett and he did make a tit of himself,even if bits of the conversations where cherry picked to suit an agenda.I think open debate and full platform should be given to the BNP,live open debate with Lab,Lib,Con MPs and anyone from the public,then if they are that bad and just hiding behind a website we’ll see it.

  42. flipside — on 1st June, 2008 at 10:22 am  

    Indigenous Brits. To those who protest that there is no such thing, the BNP has an answer. It refers to an “indigenous British genotype” created 1,000 years ago, a blend of Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic, Norman and Roman blood. This was “a fusion of genetically similar Northern and Western European peoples all coming from within a few hundred miles of each other”. Immigrants from beyond this area are compared to a different species.Say the media.Make of it what you will.

  43. flipside — on 1st June, 2008 at 11:33 am  
  44. billericaydicky — on 1st June, 2008 at 12:32 pm  

    ZinZin.

    I seem to have rattled your cage! I keep forgetting two things, that most of those posting here will be in ther twenties or early thirties and that there are a lot of urban myths floating about out there.

    The Thatcher era only effected a minority of working class people in the former industrial areas of, mainly,the north and Scotland. For most people, especially those with building skills, the era was a boom time. Yes the property crash of the early nineties hurt a lot of people but only those who had bought at the top of the market.

    When I was building throughout that time I was using labour from all over the country. For years I used only Geordie and Scots plasterers. These were people who had been effected by the closures of old industries but had literally got on their bikes and come to where the work was.

    Anyone who had bought their council house and moved out to Essex, Kent or Spain did well and it was these people who reelected the Tories four consecutive times. It was also the Tories that hacked into the NF vote and led to the collapse after May 1979. The Anti Nazi League had nothing to do with it, believe me I was there.

    Labour were in the wilderness for so long because they were dominated by the far left, the 1983 Labour Manifesto was described as the longest suicide note in history.

    MaidMarion,

    What the BNP want is power, like any political party,and they decided, as I decribed, that the best way was through the ballot box. As to what WWC is although I know it is difficult to describe. It is to a great extent a state of mind and shared attitudes and values.

    There will be far more in common between a bloke from a working class background who has made a lot of money and someone from the same background who hasn’t than the solicitor or stockbroker he lives next door to out in the country.

    I would always describe myself as WWC even though I have done ok financially and am much better off than some of the accountants and other professionals I have meployed over the years.

    There is a definate feeling of resentment to those seen to be above in terms of power and the feeling of being self made is very important. There is also resentment against white people who don’t work,are involved in crime and don’t bring up their children properly. They are widely seen to have thrown away the advantages that have been given to them. It is a very nebulous thing and you would need to be it to define it.

    I know the people who made the two films refered to here and was a party to the discussions before they were made. The leadership of the party remains loyal to the memory of Hitler and the Third Reich. Griffin has described the Holocaust as a “profitable hoax” but probably regrets he ever did as it always comes back to haunt him.

    Much of the membership and voters do not share these views and as time passes it is difficult to hang the nazi label on the party.

    Apart from ZinZin a good discussion here.

  45. BenSix — on 1st June, 2008 at 1:15 pm  

    flipside,

    a) Why do you have such antipathy towards Islam?

    b) I have great sympathy for you in your position, but our concern is that the BNP makes the claim that mass immigration is causing national economic difficulties. Not so – median wages have risen* and unemployment rates have not*.

    c) Why do you believe that the BNP would be good for you and your money? Our economy depends upon our internationalism, which forges our trading links. Griffin’s isolationism, quite simply, would cause us to break many of these and lose money and goods. Skilled foreign workers would also be forced to leave (I’d bloody move as well).

    d) There is no such ‘British genotype’. Evidence from the analysis of genetics indicates that about 94% of physical variation lies within so-called racial groups.*

    e) The article that you refer to is typical Daily Mail fearmongering. When you consider that we have spent 8 billion pounds on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the money that they cite is a drop in the proverbial barrel.

    f) The BNP establishment is wildly prejudiced. That doesn’t mean that their voters are, but their staff are certainly. Why do you think Nick Griffin railed against the jews throughout the 1990s before attacking muslims in the twentieth century? Why do you think he meets Le Pen and employs Mark Collett?

    “I think open debate and full platform should be given to the BNP,live open debate with Lab,Lib,Con MPs and anyone from the public,then if they are that bad and just hiding behind a website we’ll see it.”

    That’s a fair argument.

    * http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm
    * http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
    * http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=12

  46. halima — on 1st June, 2008 at 3:28 pm  

    Indigenous Brits. That’s the point – I wouldn’t want any political party telling me who is indigenous and isn’t – one might think their definition would be biased to suit some political goal.

    Luckily we have historians to fight out the history of the Briitsh Isles – and yes, the BNP has an answer but doesn’t mean the rest of us have to imitate it.

  47. ZinZin — on 1st June, 2008 at 3:49 pm  

    A lot of people did well out of Thatcherism, so what? Amongst all that bluster you basically admitted that I was right.

    A good discussion is every one agreeing with you, BD.

    Another thing, I’m not going to allow you to rewrite history, there were a lot of losers under Thatcherism, but as they were in the north of England and Scotland they don’t count?

    For the record I live in an area with one in six claiming JSA or IB, in the north of England.

  48. MaidMarian — on 1st June, 2008 at 5:24 pm  

    BillericayDickey – ‘I would always describe myself as WWC even though I have done ok financially and am much better off than some of the accountants and other professionals I have meployed over the years.’

    With no disrespect at all intended, that is not working class.

  49. flipside — on 1st June, 2008 at 5:53 pm  

    Ben Six I have 4 children +1 foster child who is very much part of the family,we get on with it,you do whats best for you,I’ll do what I’ll feel is best for my family and me.

  50. Anas — on 1st June, 2008 at 5:55 pm  

    Forget ‘Indigenous British’, if I’m even going to demean myself by arguing with these scum & entertaining, however briefly, their premisses I prefer to use the term Aboriginal British. So that every time that term is used it brings back the fact of Britain’s long history of ethnic cleansing and mass murder across the globe in pursuit of land and wealth. Then if as the fuckwits in the BNP claim, whites are being swamped by and discriminated against in favour of a mass flow of darkies (except they aren’t), all we need do is quote that great Buddhist sage Sharon Stone and tell them it’s just the operation of Karma in action.

  51. Dalbir — on 1st June, 2008 at 6:23 pm  

    flipside

    You could well be a decent fellow but are you really surprised that people like myself are not at all keen on the BNP. You give references to Muslim gangs terrorising the white community and acting violent towards them etc. Don’t be blind to the fact that the forerunners to the BNP used to do exactly the same themselves!

    Another thing is that although you may have genuine concerns about various issues, I have little faith in the people behind the BNP. What they would do is open a floodgate to the most scummy people about who are the exact replica of those Islamist fundamentalists you complain about. So I have to ask you – are you against fundamentalism in general or do you think it is ok, if it comes from your own people?

  52. flipside — on 1st June, 2008 at 6:28 pm  

    SELF-RIGHTEOUS BUNCH OF CUN…PEOPLE.

  53. Suzy — on 1st June, 2008 at 7:02 pm  

    SELF-RIGHTEOUS BUNCH OF CUN…

    Spoken like a true sewer mouthed supporter of a racist neo nazi organisation.

  54. Dalbir — on 1st June, 2008 at 7:09 pm  

    Dear o dear.

    Let me put it this way – I see no difference between white supremacist bullshit and Islamic fundamentalism. You talk about the British genotype like English people have ever been fussy about putting it about when they have pranced around the globe.

    If you think these Muslims are screwing your country – read some history about what your own people have done to:

    Native Americans.
    Austrailian Aboriginals.
    New Zealand’s indigenous people.
    Indigenous Canadians.

    The list could go on. Karmas a mf!

  55. Don — on 1st June, 2008 at 7:09 pm  

    Watching a BNP troll pretending to be reasonable is like watching a dog walking on its hind legs. It is not done well, but one is surprised to see it done at all.

  56. Dalbir — on 1st June, 2008 at 7:35 pm  
  57. Sunny — on 1st June, 2008 at 8:28 pm  

    Flipside has been a long BNP supporting troll on here.

  58. Anas — on 1st June, 2008 at 8:36 pm  

    wow a BNP supporter who can use a computer. i’m impressed.

  59. Bert Rustle — on 1st June, 2008 at 8:58 pm  

    54 Dalbir wrote … If you think these Muslims are screwing your country – read some history about what your own people have done to: Native Americans. Austrailian Aboriginals. New Zealand’s indigenous people. Indigenous Canadians. …

    Reportedly they have either been marginalised or replaced by immigrants. Are you arguing that retribution is therefore understandable? Deserved? Justified?

    Reportedly the North Koreans have a policy of collective punishment for several generations of a dissident’s family. How many generations of the aboriginal population of England are to be held responsible by the current Ruling Class for the marginalisation or replacement of the aboriginal populations elsewhere by the then Ruling Class?

  60. Suzy — on 1st June, 2008 at 9:35 pm  

    Bert Rustlen — how are the ‘aboriginal population’ of England being collectively punished right now?

    I don’t really agree with Dalbir’s comparison, but it’s not the ‘aborigines’ of England ie white folk who are on the end of collective punishment or collective stereotyping and collective demonising right now.

  61. Bert Rustle — on 1st June, 2008 at 9:56 pm  

    59 Suzy — on 1st June, 2008 at 9:35 pm wrote … it’s not the ‘aborigines’ of England ie white folk who are on the end of collective punishment or collective stereotyping and collective demonising right now. … Who is?

    The general point I raised with Dalbir was due to his comment which in part read … If you think these Muslims are screwing your country – read some history about what your own people have done to: Native Americans. Austrailian Aboriginals. New Zealand’s indigenous people. Indigenous Canadians. … I did not assert that … white folk who are on the end of collective punishment … However I am aware of references which partially support it. I will post them next week if this post is still active.

  62. Suzy — on 1st June, 2008 at 9:59 pm  

    Post them now Bert, I want to know how white people are being ‘collectively punished’ and demonised in this country. In fact forget other people’s references, tell us why you think white people are being persecuted in Britain today, even though its ethnic minorities of various backgrounds who are actually at the mercy of a bigoted media that is at the forefront of collectively demonising them as cancerous to British society.

    Come on Bert, don’t be shy.

  63. Suzy — on 1st June, 2008 at 10:04 pm  

    I want to hear how white people who comprise 95% of British society are being persecuted.

  64. Dalbir — on 2nd June, 2008 at 12:43 am  

    —–
    Reportedly they have either been marginalised or replaced by immigrants. Are you arguing that retribution is therefore understandable? Deserved? Justified?
    —–

    No I’m not. What I am saying is that immigrants here do not pose a threat to the “indigenous” as is being continually pushed around these days. The examples were given as evidence of people from these shores having done what is being complained about – an easily ignored fact. I hoped this would put some perspective on the matter to flipside, who is going down the victim route with a vengeance (literally!)

    But the truth is that I was probably subconsciously trying to get up flipside’s nose because I was slightly annoyed at his suppositions.

    I don’t get this country anymore. What are we facing – more and more whining about “foreigners”, many of whom were born and raised here. More bullcrap scapegoating by the media to cause a state of paranoia amongst whites?

  65. Sid — on 2nd June, 2008 at 1:04 am  

    Watching a BNP troll pretending to be reasonable is like watching a dog walking on its hind legs. It is not done well, but one is surprised to see it done at all.

    Don, you don’t need newfangled HTML to make you slick. You’re lines are still the best.

  66. Golam Murtaza — on 2nd June, 2008 at 6:53 am  

    Interesting how I’ve so far NEVER encountered any direct racial prejudice from white people in England. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. Or maybe it’s because the racist whites spend so much time indoors trolling on the Internet.

  67. Fred Jones — on 2nd June, 2008 at 7:46 am  

    Ben Six – you say “There is no such ‘British genotype’. Evidence from the analysis of genetics indicates that about 94% of physical variation lies within so-called racial groups.” May be, but take another physical variation, say height – there will be more variation in height amongst a group of oriental people and amongst a group of European people than between the average height of the two groups, but on average, European people are taller than Orientals. The same would be if you compared women with men (on average men are physically stronger and bigger built than women, although some women are bigger than some men) – so you argument is false. The white race of Europeans are different to the black African people – if not why are all the best athletes of black African ancestry, and why did democracy fail to grow in Africa? Why does Africa still fail today. On a quite separate issue, what does the term “Holocaust Denial” really mean, and why should it be a crime? Can anyone give me hard evidence – the sort which would be admissible in our courts, and not extracted by torture – that millions of people (mainly Jews) wer killed in gas chambers? After all, our courts are there to prove that something DID happen, not that something did NOT happen. So whither “Holocaust Denial”? Is it just a form of mind control, to scare people – mainly young people – into accepting multiracialism?

  68. Desi Italiana — on 2nd June, 2008 at 7:50 am  

    Flipper:

    “It refers to an “indigenous British genotype” created 1,000 years ago, a blend of Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic, Norman and Roman blood.”

    What about the current ‘indigenous British genotype’ which may involve– gasp!– Asian blood?

  69. BenSix — on 2nd June, 2008 at 9:09 am  

    You seem to be a little confused. Are you attempting to characterise people through morphological distinctions or this speculative genotype?

    “The white race of Europeans are different to the black African people – if not why are all the best athletes of black African ancestry, and why did democracy fail to grow in Africa?”

    Well, the British and other European nations subjected the African people to slavery and colonialism. Besides, there are democracies in Africa – including South Africa, Botswana, the Central African Republic and Burundi.

    “On a quite separate issue, what does the term “Holocaust Denial” really mean, and why should it be a crime?”

    Holocaust denial is the claim that the genocide of the Jews did not occur in the manner or to the extent described by current scholarship. Normally it’s attributed to people who, like Nick Griffin, believe that the entirety of the events was a fabrication. Griffin has also shown numerous other signs of being an anti-semite, including describing a former MP as “this bloody Jew..whose only claim is that his grandparents died in the Holocaust.”

    To learn about the Holocaust, if you should wish to, you could start by reading Raul Hilberg’s The Destruction of the European Jews. Michael Shermer’s ‘Denying History’ and Deborah Lipstadt’s ‘Denying the Holocaust’ specifically relate to Holocaust denial. I don’t, however, believe that it should be considered to be a crime. I’m an advocate of free-speech, and ideologies must be confronted, not merely stifled.

    As a young person I can also assure you that I don’t need historical events to endear me to “multiracialism”. I only need my sanity.

  70. Fred Jones — on 2nd June, 2008 at 10:01 am  

    I’m not the one who is confused – morphology and other phenotypical characteristics arise from the genotype which has, over many generations, varied amongst isolated populations. A few hundred years of slavery is nothing on the millenia which passed before we “discovered” Africa and so is not the cause of black athletic ability. Incidently, it’s significant that you, as an ill educated person (not you fault), do not realise that slavery had been going on for thousands of years as black tribes warred together, enslaving captives. These were then offered in the first instance by black chiefs to mainly Arab and Jewish merchants. We only got in on the act a few hundred years ago. The schools forget to tell you this, and slavery, along with the holocaust are part of the means of controlling people like you. As far as proof of the holocaust is concerned, those writers you mentioned are hardly objective! Show me documentary proof, as opposed to Jewish propaganda, that millions of Jews were gassed. Where are the gas chambers? The onus is on YOU to prove it happened, not for me to prove it didn’t happen.

  71. BenSix — on 2nd June, 2008 at 10:36 am  

    “I’m not the one who is confused – morphology and other phenotypical characteristics arise from the genotype which has, over many generations, varied amongst isolated populations.”

    I’m quite aware of the concept of inherited characteristics, thank you, I’m pointing out that with such genetic variation one cannot possibly draw the base distinctions that flipside attempted.

    “Incidently, it’s significant that you, as an ill educated person (not you fault), do not realise that slavery had been going on for thousands of years as black tribes warred together, enslaving captives.”

    It’s significant that you, as a bigot (your fault, I’m afraid), describe tribes as ‘black’ and refer to ‘jewish propaganda’.

    In any case, what on earth are you trying to prove? That Africa has a less than idyllic history? Need I remind you that Britain was hardly run by a parliamentary democracy throughout that era?

    “As far as proof of the holocaust is concerned, those writers you mentioned are hardly objective!”

    Don’t be so ridiculous. You’re suggesting that Ernst Zundel is? If you actually cared about the subject that you’d read the material that I have cited and judge them by their sourcing, logical progression etc. If you’re willing to dismiss Raul Hilberg purely because of his ethnicity then it exposes you for the foul bigot that your previous insinuations suggest.

    “The onus is on YOU to prove it happened, not for me to prove it didn’t happen.”

    I’m not asking you to disprove anything. I’m giving you literature that will enhance your understanding before you can reach your own conclusion.

  72. Fred Jones — on 2nd June, 2008 at 11:46 am  

    Oooh! benSix we are loosing our cool are we not! If you are “quite aware of the concept of inherited characteristics” why do you not accept that white Europeans are as a group different genetically than, say black Africans? Something must account for differences in athletic ability. So what is it?

    You say “Need I remind you that Britain was hardly run by a parliamentary democracy throughout that era?” but my point is that democracy developed only in nations where white Europeans lived.

    Irrespective of what others say, can YOU find documentary evidence, admissible in our courts, to substantiate to a jury that millions of Jews wre gassed? It’s a simple question. Asking questions in no way implies a predetermined answer.

  73. Dalbir — on 2nd June, 2008 at 12:00 pm  

    but my point is that democracy developed only in nations where white Europeans lived.
    ——

    Define this democracy please.

  74. BenSix — on 2nd June, 2008 at 12:41 pm  

    “Oooh! benSix we are loosing our cool are we not!”

    Projection – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    I wouldn’t normally comment on the writing of a commenter, but as you labelled me ‘ill educated’ I shall make an exception. Learn before you lecture.

    “If you are “quite aware of the concept of inherited characteristics” why do you not accept that white Europeans are as a group different genetically than, say black Africans?”

    Your categorising would have to be wildly ambiguous before you could consider either to be a ‘group’.

    “Something must account for differences in athletic ability. So what is it?”

    If I must humour you, you arrant little bigot. Of course genetics determine some heritable characteristics. What I object to – in no weak terms – is your and flipside’s constructed, and alarmingly ambiguous, constructions of ‘race’ and it’s categorisations.

    “but my point is that democracy developed only in nations where white Europeans lived.”

    Democratic systems of government proliferated from a certain geographical point, troll. It’s not a natural step in human evolution. Besides, democratic systems were already being used in the Iroquois Confederacy and Melanesia, far from the influence of ‘white Europeans’.

    However, by the time that much of the world democratised, most of Africa was colonialised, and therefore the inhabitants had no influence on their governmental system.

    “Irrespective of what others say, can YOU find documentary evidence, admissible in our courts, to substantiate to a jury that millions of Jews wre gassed? It’s a simple question. Asking questions in no way implies a predetermined answer.”

    No, obviously. They’re not in my local library, and with my legal and oratory skills I’d be hard-pressed to prove to a court that the war even occurred. Do you know what documentary evidence is? The clue is in the name.

    What I can do is read books based upon documentation, confessions and statistical analysis, and go onto sites (Nizkor is an example) to see photographs, and documents translated and mirrored. With this method I can analyse the sources and the logical progression towards a conclusion, which satisfies me to the extent of the atrocities in the Holocaust (where, yes, millions were gassed), in the Gulags, in Cambodia, in China, in Rwanda and so on. I can also meet survivors, who you assumedly think are just conniving liars.

    Moreover, I can be filled with contempt for people who blithely and scornfully speculate rather than investigating subjects with honest scepticism (that’s you, that is).

    Anyway, begone, bigot, you’ve had your trolling time.

  75. Fred Jones — on 2nd June, 2008 at 1:42 pm  

    Your extreme and impertinent tone tells us all we need to know about you, plus the spectacle of you thrashing around desperately to prove a point eg an “alarmingly ambiguous, constructions of ‘race’ and it’s categorisations” – there’s nothing ambiguous about racial classification, inherited physiological and psychological (including average IQ) over many generations of separate development are real and observable.

    Democracy requires an understanding that other people not only have a point of view, but that the other fellow is theoretically just as likely to be as right as I am, something which is a uniquely Western characteristic and absent in Third World nations (and, judging by you attitude, absent in you – are you black, perhaps?).

    Just look at the way Asian and black African societies treat women.

    The world has never been “democratised” yet, and only in places we exported it, and in places like Africa it failed when we whites were driven out. That you think that colonizing Africa was a barrier to democracy when in fact it was just the opposite, shows your lack of knowledge (I should concentrate more on your GCSE exams).

    All of the evidence for the Holocaust was gathered after the War (those “confessions” you mentioned were extracted by torture) at the Nuremburg trials, or by faulty recollection – OUR courts (as opposed to the Nuremburg Jewish kangaroo courts) require hard evidence – where is it? Instead of disguising your lack of knowledge and your stupidity by using insults, put your money where your mouth is.

    If, as you say, “millions were gassed” – then prove it, where are the gas chambers, where are the cyanide residues, where are the bodies (clue: look how many Jews live in the USA)

  76. Golam Murtaza — on 2nd June, 2008 at 2:02 pm  

    Oh dear, holocaust denial. Keep digging Freddy.

  77. Sid — on 2nd June, 2008 at 2:10 pm  

    Freddy must be the first commenter on PP who has mangaged to make even Muzumdar look balanced and sensible.

  78. Fred Jones — on 2nd June, 2008 at 2:16 pm  

    Golam Murtaza – concentrate carefully on what I am saying: I do not “deny” anything, I simply ask for PROOF, the sort of proof which we people in the UK are used to in a court of law. Put the proof in front of a jury, present all sides (without calling anyone a “nartsi” or a “denier”) and let’s find the truth. What’s wrong with that? The fact that the Bolshevik left in the UK – the sort of people who infest the media, education and the union leadership – will only call it “holocaust denial” in place of debate tells us all we need to know. How about a “truth and reconcilliation” panel along the lines of the one in s africa?

  79. douglas clark — on 2nd June, 2008 at 3:20 pm  

    Fred,

    What gives you the right to demand ‘proof’? This was done and dusted by contemporary jurists fifty odd years ago. Your description of them as:

    the Nuremburg Jewish kangaroo courts

    suggests you might just be running an agenda of your own here.

    There was also a libel trial that wended it’s weary way through the UK courts in the late ’90s, Google Irving -v- Lipstadt if your interested. The outcome was that an English Court agreed that the evidence for the holocaust was ‘incontrovertible’. Irving being one of the poster boys for the denialists. The way Irvings case unravelled is a fascinating example of forensic law.

    We know the truth and we are reconciled to it. It is only you that is not.

  80. sonia — on 2nd June, 2008 at 3:46 pm  

    good points from dan, don and maid marian and of course douglas clark.

    i’d say the shambles around “immigration” discourse plays into many people’s hands – people think of “immigration” as one thing – whether that’s a kiwi on a commonwealth visa or an eu citizen working here or someone without any kind of permit and someone who was born here of ‘foreign’ parentage. All these different people have completely different entitlements: the fact that we keep hearing about “immigrants and housing” goes to show.

    No recourse to public funds includes council housing last time i looked – so for example there is a big difference in who as an “immigrant” can access them. Are we talking immigrant citizens? Or are we talking ‘immigrant’ as in visa-toting kiwi? If you are e.g. a Commonwealth citizen on a visa – you can’t, no recourse to public funds, so no benefits of any kind. if you were one of those bods who immigrated back in the day in the 60s – or the child of one of those bods – yes you can obviously, you’re british by now. So there’s a big issue with inaccuracy and what people term as “immigration” and people are for the most part – hugely confused of the rights of these different people. SO no suprises there that the BNP< or any politician, can draw on this complete lack of knowlege and fan the flames. After all, what is the BNP going to say about all of the people on visas who pay taxes and can’t get benefits? refuse to have the extra money in the pot?

    So the way i see it, having a bit of accuracy and meaning in this so called “immigration” debate – would go a long way to fixing a lot of hooha. Last time Rumbold wrote something on No Recourse to Public Funds..it was good. ANd if people don’t have sticky visas in their passports saying that..”No Recourse to Public Funds”..how would they know anything about it? NOt like the Daily Mail or the Guardian seem to know anything about it, On this level i would say the so-called intelligent outlets are pretty much clueless. As are most commentators by virtue of being home-born and not knowing much about visas.

  81. sonia — on 2nd June, 2008 at 3:48 pm  

    and until everyone has a foreign-born wife it looks like it will stay that way! ;-)

  82. john grimbits — on 2nd June, 2008 at 6:00 pm  

    der fuhrer is coming back from
    Valhalla soon
    so politics are irrelevent anyway

  83. Sid — on 2nd June, 2008 at 6:04 pm  

    Valhalla? Do I need to get off at BanglaTown or Jalandar North?

  84. BenSix — on 2nd June, 2008 at 6:52 pm  

    “Your extreme and impertinent tone tells us all we need to know about you”

    The irony is suffocating. An ad hominem is only a logical fallacy when it is the only argument deployed. I replied to each of your points and made it clear to you that you are both a bigot and a troll.

    “plus the spectacle of you thrashing around desperately to prove a point eg an “alarmingly ambiguous, constructions of ‘race’ and it’s categorisations” – there’s nothing ambiguous about racial classification”

    Bare assertion fallacy.

    ” something which is a uniquely Western characteristic and absent in Third World nations.”

    Bare assertion fallacy.

    “and, judging by you attitude, absent in you – are you black, perhaps?”

    I’m not going to give you the satisfaction of saying what colour my skin is. It matters far more to you than it does to me.

    “The world has never been “democratised” yet, and only in places we exported it, and in places like Africa it failed when we whites were driven out.”

    *Sigh* Bare assertion fallacy. There are numerous democracies in Africa: try South Africa, Burundi, Mali etc.

    “That you think that colonizing Africa was a barrier to democracy when in fact it was just the opposite, shows your lack of knowledge”

    *Yawn* Bare assertion fallacy.

    “(as opposed to the Nuremburg Jewish kangaroo courts)”

    Dismissing the entirety of the Nuremburg trials – especially for being ‘Jewish’ – tells us all that we need, really. Calumnious assertions with a whole hit of bigotry.

    “I simply ask for PROOF, the sort of proof which we people in the UK are used to in a court of law. Put the proof in front of a jury, present all sides (without calling anyone a “nartsi” or a “denier”) and let’s find the truth.”

    Fred, if I asked for evidence of the Gulags then assumedly you’d direct me to, say, Robert Conquest. You have to read material before coming to your own conclusions. Read The Destruction of the European Jews, read Denying the Holocaust, read Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers.

    Still, regarding your ‘torture’ comment. I was referring to the testimony of soldiers who were not accused of crimes, as well as the later testimony of Nazi officials. See number one on this* Nizkor page. Hell, go through the whole document.

    “der fuhrer is coming back from
    Valhalla soon
    so politics are irrelevent anyway”

    I call parody (and I almost wish that I could with Fred).

    * http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/boeck.richard/

  85. Fred Jones — on 3rd June, 2008 at 7:27 am  

    Douglas Clark: You ask me

    “What gives you the right to demand ‘proof’?”

    Answer – because it was never proven in the first place – surely any “proof” which came out at the tine would still be available for us to see (but it is not -otherwise someone would have supplied it to settle this debate once and for all). It was NOT “done and dusted by contemporary jurists fifty odd years ago” – it was a Jewish kangaroo court (most if not all of the prosecuters were Jews) and very unusual to execute the leaders of a defeated nation. And why was Rudolph Hess kept in jail for so long (no doubt if a Muslim terrorist was incarcerated for so many years the liberati would be complaining these days!)

    My agenda? The truth.What’s wrong with the truth?

    The Lipstadt case was Irving sueing Lipstadt for libel – a difficult thing to prove, especially when it’s one man against the might of world Jewry!!

    <> -yes, and the world is flat.

  86. Fred Jones — on 3rd June, 2008 at 7:50 am  

    From you link: Testimony of SS private Boeck – “In the place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse(Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts….there was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch.”

    So what are we meant to conclude from this? No mention of “gas” being introduced, and, according to Fred Leuchter – an American expert on the design of gas chambers for US executions – such a “gas chamber [a wooden hut?] would be totally inadequate and all of the soldiers in the vicinity would have also been poisoned by the hydrogen cyanide gas, particularly when removing the “bodies”. If we are still a free country, then excuse me for rejecting this “eye witness” account – perhaps SS private Boeck was given a pardon for making this up, or at least creating a “gassing” from a “disinfecting”. Such a statement would not convince a jury – and where’s the crosse examination.

    ps: Gulags? Nobody cares – Nartsis not involved, only Bolshevics, you know, the ancestors of our politically correct powers that be that sustain the story of the Holocaust.

    Now, I getting bored with this thread, so I’m off.

  87. BenSix — on 3rd June, 2008 at 10:21 am  

    Right, so you’ve selected one of the testimonies.

    “Such a statement would not convince a jury – and where’s the crosse examination.”

    Are we to conclude that ninety-nine percent of historical testimony is worthless because the participants weren’t cross examined?

    Anyway, you’ve moved on to the Leuchter report. Okay, work your way through this* then.

    “ps: Gulags? Nobody cares – Nartsis not involved, only Bolshevics, you know, the ancestors of our politically correct powers that be that sustain the story of the Holocaust.”

    You really would be frightening if you weren’t so infantile.

    * http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

  88. Fred Jones — on 3rd June, 2008 at 11:28 am  

    You say: “Are we to conclude that ninety-nine percent of historical testimony is worthless because the participants weren’t cross examined?” A non sequitur, because historical testimony is not often used as a means of controlling people’s thoughts and actions, as is th holocaust. Before a free country like the UK (and the rest of the world, free or unfree for that matter) is dominated by the power of international Jewry and their holocaust tale, the varacity and truth of the historical fetails must be beyond reasonable doubt. Concentration camps, brutality, starvation, disease yes, and not just to Jewish inmates, and a war at the same time, yes, but gas chambers? Wheres the evidence which would convince a jury before we are placed under the yoke of international Jewry? Perhaps you don’t agree with freedom, democracy and trial by jury. That’s your choice but it doesn’t mean we all have to. Brainwashing by the internationaist media is very powerful, shake it off before you become a permanant prisoner.

  89. douglas clark — on 3rd June, 2008 at 7:49 pm  

    Fred Jones @ 85,

    You say:

    The Lipstadt case was Irving sueing Lipstadt for libel – a difficult thing to prove…

    When the precise opposite – that it is a difficult thing to defend yourself against – seems to be the general opinion, especially what with UK libel tourism, etc. But turning a perceived wisdom on it’s head seems to be par for the course for you.

    You said that this matter had never been addressed in the UK courts. I demonstrated it had, and that a specific conclusion had been reached. To repeat, “that the evidence for the holocaust was ‘incontrovertible’”.

    A British Court has reached a specific conclusion. And that’s not good enough for you? Perhaps you’d like a kangaroo court stuffed with other conspiracy theorists instead?

    Coda, Belsen, NSFW.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4445811.stm

  90. Bert Rustle — on 3rd June, 2008 at 9:21 pm  

    Dalbir 64 wrote … I don’t get this country anymore. What are we facing – more and more whining about “foreigners”, many of whom were born and raised here. … Perhaps it is : this

  91. Bert Rustle — on 3rd June, 2008 at 9:23 pm  

    Suzy 60 wrote … how are the ‘aboriginal population’ of England being collectively punished right now? …

    Firstly, please read this, which presents statistics which demonstrate that all groups are “punished” in a multiracial society, not just the aboriginals.

    In the UK the statistics are not readily available to me. However the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs has produced a series of spreadsheets here . They are referenced in article by Laurence Auster in Frontpagemag.com The Truth of Interracial Rape in the United States .

    … In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man.

    What this means is that every day in the United States, over one hundred white women are raped or sexually assaulted by a black man.

    The Department of Justice statistics refer, of course, to verified reports. …

  92. Bert Rustle — on 3rd June, 2008 at 9:27 pm  

    Suzy 60, to continue. Regarding black crime rates in Britain, the USA and indeed worldwide see Cross-national variation in violent crime rates

    From the discussion:

    “These results first corroborate predictions … that Blacks average higher rates of violent crime than do Whites and East Asians and … people
    of East Asian descent commit relatively fewer acts of violent crime than
    do those of European or African descent. Present results show that the population patterns in crime found within Britain, Canada, and the United
    States are more generalizable than is often supposed. This implies that some of the causes of race differences must be sought beyond the local conditions of particular countries or even groups of countries.”

    If you have the time and the interest, various other references can be found in my comments at Gates of Vienna here and here

  93. douglas clark — on 3rd June, 2008 at 10:42 pm  

    Bert Rustle,

    On the Web site, ‘Gates of Vienna’? Get a fucking grip. And that is not an agenda driven web site? Lets be clear about this. There is no physical threat to the West that justifies a headliner for that site like this:

    At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe. We are in a new phase of a very old war.

    What a lot of pish. Anyway, from your links, your chums seem to be a bunch of white supremacist scumbags. Though your comment was more, err, measured than most.

    Are we supposed to. like, take you in, nurture you and turn you around? I doubt that that is your agenda at all.

    I don’t actually see why we should listen to a sub Steve Sailor, sub Bell Curve lunatic. ‘suppose it’s better than the telly, right enough.

  94. Bert Rustle — on 4th June, 2008 at 7:26 am  

    douglas clark 93 wrote … On the Web site, ‘Gates of Vienna’? … I posted research abstracts and links to the original source at GOV. To save space at PP, I provided a link to my comments at GOV. I have previously provided links to referenced comments I have made at CIF and other blogs.

    Have you studied the research abstracts which I linked to? How exactly does your comment relate to them? Please be precise.

  95. Fred Jones — on 4th June, 2008 at 7:57 am  

    Douglas Clark – the Irving/Lipstadt case arose because Lipstadt libelled Irving, attacked his reputation as an historian and said his books were not worth publishing. Lets face it, Jews do not want an objective debate on the “facts”. The trial was nothing to do with the truth about the holocaust. After the case Irving said that he was not a “holocaust denier” but a “gas chamber denier”. It is easy to produce all sorts of lurid photos of bodies taken 60 or more years ago and pass them of as “the holocaust”, but not easy to validate their authenticity or what they actually represent.

    I am not an anti semite but am acutely aware that never a day goes by without someone in the media mentioning “the holocaust” – it’s apparently obligatory for people who wish to get on in life to worship at the altar of “The Holocaust”. This, plus the fact that in some countries you can go to prison for doubting the truth of the holocaust indicates it (at least the gas chamber bit) could be a myth, used to justify the involvement of the allies in WW2 and to promote international Jewish interests and their hold over Palestine. Another indication of the use of the holocaust is the way school kids are being sent to Auswich and come back brainwashed against the BNP – ie a useful tool to promote a multiracial Britain and a step nearer to a one world order. This is a form of child abuse and should be stopped – there are no free trips to see the Soviet gulags or “Gulag studies” in school and universities. And look how the Bolshevic opponents of the BNP shout “holocaust denier” like the brain dead idiots they are, as a substitute to debate. It all adds up. That’s why I think there should be a trial before a jury to test the evidence for the holocaust once and for all – reactions to my postings on this topic show just how uncomfortable some people are about this subject!

  96. douglas clark — on 4th June, 2008 at 9:28 am  

    Fred Jones.

    First Paragraph:

    Douglas Clark – the Irving/Lipstadt case arose because Lipstadt libelled Irving, attacked his reputation as an historian and said his books were not worth publishing. Lets face it, Jews do not want an objective debate on the “facts”. The trial was nothing to do with the truth about the holocaust. After the case Irving said that he was not a “holocaust denier” but a “gas chamber denier”. It is easy to produce all sorts of lurid photos of bodies taken 60 or more years ago and pass them of as “the holocaust”, but not easy to validate their authenticity or what they actually represent.

    No. The Irving -v- Lipstadt case arose because Irving thought that he had been libelled by Lipstadt. The point of the trial – if there is any point at all to a libel trial is unfortunately that the defendant, Lipstadt had to prove that she had not, in fact, libelled Irving – the levels of proof are ludicrously high and preclude natural justice, such as ‘fair comment’, etc.

    You may see it as a Jewish conspiracy, those damn Jews, eh! But the fact of the matter is that the case was tried in front of an English Judge, and you ought to realise that Lipstadt was forced to defend the reality of the holocaust rather than any narrower point in order to win her case. She won, Irving lost. When the deck was stacked against her. So, game set and match to Lipstadt. Stop playing revisionist shit here.

    Irving, was proven to be someone who was ‘economical with the truth’ shall we say.

    Are you calling Richard Dimbleby a liar? A lot of these photographs, which are horrendous, were taken by independent Tommies. Who were fucking well there. They are lurid because lurid things were done. Get over it. There is an archive of this Cambodian materiél at the Imperial War Museum. I did not put them up in order to prove my case, that has been proven elsewhere, I put it up to show others what you are defending. Which makes you a bit of a shit, really.

    I am sick of listening to idiotic ‘patriots’ pretending it didn’t happen. It did. And your white soul is forever blackened by it. [Sorry if anyone else is offended, I'm using blackened in it's historical, English context, which has sweet FA to do with skin colour] Why, exactly, anyone whose parents or grandparents fought against this should feel the need to excuse it is beyond me. and you fuckers call yourselves patriots? Get a life or go and live in modern day Germany where most folk will see you for the scum you actually are.

    The reason the photographs were taken 60 odd years ago are because the events happened sixty odd years ago. Doh!

    They are not the record. The record is in the bureaucratic paperwork, where quite a lot of the case against can be pieced together.

    In other words you are lying through your teeth.

    Your second paragraph:

    I am not an anti semite but am acutely aware that never a day goes by without someone in the media mentioning “the holocaust” – it’s apparently obligatory for people who wish to get on in life to worship at the altar of “The Holocaust”. This, plus the fact that in some countries you can go to prison for doubting the truth of the holocaust indicates it (at least the gas chamber bit) could be a myth, used to justify the involvement of the allies in WW2 and to promote international Jewish interests and their hold over Palestine. Another indication of the use of the holocaust is the way school kids are being sent to Auswich and come back brainwashed against the BNP – ie a useful tool to promote a multiracial Britain and a step nearer to a one world order. This is a form of child abuse and should be stopped – there are no free trips to see the Soviet gulags or “Gulag studies” in school and universities. And look how the Bolshevic opponents of the BNP shout “holocaust denier” like the brain dead idiots they are, as a substitute to debate. It all adds up. That’s why I think there should be a trial before a jury to test the evidence for the holocaust once and for all – reactions to my postings on this topic show just how uncomfortable some people are about this subject!

    You are an anti semite. Look in the mirror and what you see is an anti semite with added conspiraloon.

    I’d have thought most folk, me included, would have posted this to their back brain. Under a heading like, ‘nasty shit happens, file and forget until you need it’. But, according to you, it is the talk of the town. Apart from a few folk that make their living out of this, and Irving is one of them, it is hardly the talk of your local saloon bar. Can we agree that the Germans exterminated, like rodents, around 8 million folk, whose crime was being Jewish or Polish or Gypsy? Or German but daft? Thought not.

    If being a part of the BNP, which I take it you are, requires this revisionist shit then you are denying what your parents or grandparents fought against. You are denying that fascism had an ugly face, you are denying reality. You are, in fact, denying your own national history in order to make your stupid politics make sense to you. No-one else is listening. Traitor!

  97. douglas clark — on 4th June, 2008 at 9:43 am  

    Bert Rustle,

    Some folk do indeed believe the Earth is flat. They provide reams of material which is fairly easily refutable. It is just a waste of anyones’ time to bother their arse with it. As above, so below.

  98. Fred Jones — on 4th June, 2008 at 9:48 am  

    Ah ah! Douglas Clarke – all that foul language and abuse shows you have lost the argument!! OK – show me a photo – taken by a “Tommy” if you like – of a Nazi gas Chamber with people going in or coming out (and I dont mean that pile of concrete or that rebuilt air raid shelter/ crematorium so often shown). We have to differentiate between certain facts which I ACCEPT ie on the one hand the terrible scenes at some of the liberated camps, starved emaciated bodies and typhus victims (although proving they were Jews and not Poles, Russians etc is not possible), piles of human hair, shoes, specs etc (but no human soap or lampshades) and on the other hand, assertions to which I have not been supplied proof viz the story that millions of Jews were systematically gassed in gas chambers at Auswich. This latter point is the most serious allegation yet it appears to be unsustantiated to such an extent that I’m amazed the German people are not jumping up and down at such a terrible slur on their national character…..but so powerful is the Holocaust. Without those gas chambers, the holocaust story would probably be no worse than, say, the allied bombing of civillians at Dresden or the nuking of Japanese women and kids at Hiroshima.

    “Fascism has an ugly face”? I reckon that unspoken of, Jewish inspired, Bolshevik revolution in 1917 and its echos even to the current century WAS FAR MORE UGLY THAN ANYTHING THE “NARTSIS” DID – and judging from your debating skills (or more accurately, lack of them) I guess you must be a fairly ugly person yerrself!!!

  99. douglas clark — on 4th June, 2008 at 10:21 am  

    Nope, foul language and abuse is the last resort when you are dealing with morons.

    By the way, what you describe as foul language is honest to God Anglo Saxon. Is this another BNP sell out to European romantic languages? Yes it is! So get a fucking grip.

    It would have been hard for a Tommy to have taken a picture of folk walking into gas chambers, for it would have been his duty to put a stop to it. And folk didn’t walk out, ’cause they were dead, murdered by a killing machine. What bit of that scenario do you fail to understand?

    I, frankly, don’t give a damn what you accept or don’t accept. The historical record says, and the evidence backs it up, that the holocaust actually happened. We had a fairly civilised society, Germany in 1932, which was not much different from England in 1932, exant inflation, and they gave their country over to scumbags.

    Incidentally, if you want revisionism, it was the Russians that won WW2 for us, at least on a headcount of dead German soldiers. 19 out of 20 German soldiers were killed by Russians.

    Hurrah!

    It is unpatriotic to go around the place telling folk the Germans were right. You are as treasonous as your chum Bert.

  100. john grimbits — on 4th June, 2008 at 4:44 pm  

    the real holocaust was against the Reich
    and german culture

  101. billericaydicky — on 5th June, 2008 at 11:23 am  

    What people are doing is to engage in a debate with Fred Jones who is an obvious Holocaust denier. I will only do this one post because what is happening here is exactly what Jones and his ilk want, to be seen as the other side of an argument.

    I,m afraid Mr Jones isn’t the most sophisticated denier I have come across there are others far better equiped than he, David Irving,Paul Rassinier,Ernst Zundel, Gerhart Lauck, Robert Faurisson, I could go on and on.

    What all of them try to do is to use a perfectly legitimate historical method known as revisionism to deny something that happened, the destruction of the European Jews.

    There is nothing wrong, when new evidence is obtained, from reassessing certain historical events and the name comes from a school of historians in 1920s America which looked anew at the reasons why the USA was drawn into the First World War.

    It is interesting, before he began to rant,that Fred Jones never claimed to be a denier only that he wanted proof. This is classic denier speak and always has been. No matter what is presented it is always dismissed. For instance, two separate accounts of survivors of a particular camp of an incident that took place half a century before will vary in some detail or other. Any discrepancy is siezed on and the whole account rejected.

    It interesting that Fred Leughter is mentioned as he has been exposed by American courts as a fraud. He is always refered to as an engineering expert but has had to sign an agreement that he has no engineering experience atall.

    I had the good fortune to meet and talk with an Auschwitz surviver Leon Greeman. I met him when there was a demonstration against the presence in London of Jorge Hieder who was over for a meeting with British businessmen.

    I picked Leon up at a Jewish community centre in north London and took him to the demo. He walked up and down the line of police showing his camp tattoo and telling how his wife and son had been gassed. Several policemen shook his hand and were visibly moved. His book “An Englishman in Auschwitz” is required reading and can be obtained from Valentine Mitchell http://www.vmbooks.com.

    There you are Fred Jones, I met someone who was there.

  102. douglas clark — on 5th June, 2008 at 11:49 am  

    Grimbits,

    the real holocaust was against the Reich
    and german culture

    Now that really is turning history on it’s head. Try this on. The real holocaust was what the bloody Germans tried to do to us and our culture. You do remember, don’t you, that they proposed to invade the UK?

    Swine, the lot of them…..

    I have a politically incorrect T shirt in the shape of an RAF roundel, which, if you look at it very closely says in very small writing ‘celebrating 60 years of the defeat of fascism’.

    Hurrah!

    Folk nowadays – well, you for instance – seem to have difficulty in understanding just how existential WW2 actually was. Whatever you are, you are no patriot.

  103. john grimbits — on 5th June, 2008 at 11:58 am  

    Why cant i vote
    NPD if i want
    that would be democracy
    not this joke in the UK

  104. john grimbits — on 5th June, 2008 at 11:58 am  

    Why cant i vote
    NPD if i want
    that would be democracy

  105. douglas clark — on 5th June, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

    john,

    Why cant i vote
    NPD if i want
    that would be democracy
    not this joke in the UK

    You can vote for anyone you like. Assuming there is a candidate willing to stand. It is up to the neo Reich ( would that be the NPD by any chance? I don’t do acronyms), to put up folk willing to take all the callumny I can muster.

    That, is, democracy.

    Why don’t you stand? You seem sincere in your beliefs and rather than subverting democracy why don’t you present your case – whatever it might be – to the people? Then you could, at the very least, vote for your very good self.

  106. Fred Jones — on 5th June, 2008 at 8:02 pm  

    That Leon Greeman threw his lot in with the Searchlight group of liars against the BNP tells me I wouldn’t trust anything he had to say about “gassings”. Birds of a feather….etc

  107. Don — on 5th June, 2008 at 9:05 pm  

    I think Fred has delighted us for long enough.

  108. Pablo — on 5th June, 2008 at 9:11 pm  

    I don’t know about anyone else, but the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people voting for a neo-nazi racist political party, and that their discourse is becoming semi-respectable in the rhetoric and demonising of the mainstream press, and that more white people are not standing up and fighting back against this, especially in the media, frightens the bejezus out of me.

    Sometimes it feels like we’re going to have to fight the battles of the 1970′s and 1980′s all over again.

  109. flipside — on 6th June, 2008 at 8:54 am  
  110. billericaydicky — on 6th June, 2008 at 11:01 am  

    Pablo,

    I don’t know what you mean by ” more white people are not standing up and fighting back against this”.

    If you were actually involved in the movement against the BNP you would see that it is predominently white. One person who did stand up was my friend Blair Peach who had his skull fractured by the Met in April 1979 in Southall and died the next day. There is a school there named after him and last year a group of us got a plaque erected to him on the school he taught at in Tower Hamlets.

    One of the problems that the movement has faced is that unless there were fascist activities in an actual area were there were a lot of black or Asian people then generally they were disinclined to get involved.

    Although Barking and Dagenham is right next door to Newham which has a big Asian poulation the people turning out on the streets against the BNP are almost entirely white.

    There are two byelections on the 3rd of July in Dagenham and Chadwell Heath. The BNP are standing in both and could take both seats. If people want to get involved in canvassing and leafleting then watch http://www.hopenothate.org.uk for details. The breakdown of the vote in the London elections shows that at the moment, if there were council elections there, they would be running the council.

    Predictably the SWP front Unite Against Fascism, which did nothing atall in the elections, are having a march against racism and fascism at City Hall to demand that the BNP are kicked of the Assembly. Absolute cretins!

  111. sonia — on 6th June, 2008 at 11:55 am  

    oh dont get so scared Pablo..its not THAT bad, a bit of perspective now dear

  112. sonia — on 6th June, 2008 at 12:10 pm  

    frankly if you want to worry about something about this country i’d worry about how the State seems to be convinced (or rather one Man is and he is Whipping everyone into line for Party Unity and dont make us look bad Boys we need you to be a good sport!)that they can suspend an individual’s habeas corpus rights for 42 days. So worry about that. because anything else, you have recourse to law, it might not be perfect, you might have to shout a lot, but god damn it, at least you can do it, and you’re not a NON:Person like what you become when your rights are suspended for 42 days. So if you want to freak out, go do it about that

  113. bananabrain — on 6th June, 2008 at 1:29 pm  

    ok, so he doesn’t like leon greenman. perhaps he’d like to go and ask my wife’s father and uncle what happened to their 8 year old sister, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents. there’s a family tree’s-worth of names, but no graves. that is because they were all gassed at auschwitz. perhaps he can’t find evidence because he’s looking under “auswich”, which is presumably in east anglia somewhere. nuremberg prosecutors, bbc documentaries and the propaganda of world jewry aside, i’d be interested to know why our new friend thinks my wife’s family should give untrue personal testimony about this to her; it’s not like they live in israel and have to “justify their occupation”.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  114. Parvinder Singh — on 6th June, 2008 at 1:30 pm  

    #101 & 110: agree with most of your comments and I too had the pleasure of hearing the late Leon Greenman’s testimony of the horrors of Nazism. I will, however disagree when you state:

    ‘Predictably the SWP front Unite Against Fascism’

    Despite the fact that SW features prominently in the UAF as they did with the Anti Nazi League of past, most of us who are in Unite against Fascism are non-SWP
    others include: http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4

    unity is strength

  115. Dalbir — on 6th June, 2008 at 2:40 pm  

    I would like to ask some of the veteran anti nazism activists here how they think the situation today compares with the 70s.

    I see some parallels and some major differences too. One big one is that whereas nazis had no “justification” for their acts back then, today they can toss about the “war on terror” and Islamaphobic rhetoric to help bolster their case and promote distrust and anger amongst the population. This seems to be one of the main planks of their arguments these days. What thinks you?

  116. Neville — on 6th June, 2008 at 8:45 pm  

    Excuse me….

    Did the BNP call for an invasion of Iraq?
    Did the BNP abolish the 10p tax band?
    Did the BNP close post offices?
    Did the BNP encourage private companies to run public services?

    No… Labour has.

    Labour are a bigger menace and threat to British society than a small bunch of right-whinge nutcases. The centre left should be fighting Labour, not the BNP.

  117. billericaydicky — on 7th June, 2008 at 11:43 am  

    Parvinder Singh,

    One of the advantages of being an old anti fascist is that I have a long memory and know where the bodies are buried.

    I will deal with the history of the ANL and the backstabbing and betrayals elswhere as my breakfast will be ready soon!

    I have made reference to urban myths before and it is important that they are tackled before people begin to think that they are history. UAF was formed by the ANL, always from its formation in 1977 controlled by the central committee of the SWP, and the National Assembly Against Racism, a Lee Jasper Kumar Murshid front funded by Livingstone.

    The SWP and NAAR were both Trotskyist influenced groups which, while they disagreed on matters of detail, both had the top down the end justifies the means and the workers revolution is just around the corner attitude to life and politics which has guaranteed the marginalisation of the left in this country for generations.

    As in 1977 when the SWP leadership saw the anti fascist movement as a way of recruiting young people, the growth of the BNP in the part of this century was seen as an opportunity to do the same as well as get money from the trades unions.

    The unions wouldn’t touch the ANL with a bargepole because it was SWP controlled and they were always stirring up trouble in local trades union branches but through Livingstone, who was still Labour Party and left flavour of the month, money and political backing could be obtained.

    A back room deal was done and the new organisation was announced fully formed with a chair, Livingstone, vice chair Lee Jasper and two full time organisers, or rather disorganisers, Weyman Bennett from the SWP/ANL and Sabby Dhalu from NAAR.

    At the first meeting the unions asked where Searchlight was and were told by Bennett that they had been invited but had not turned up which was a lie. At union insistence Searchlight had two representatives on the steering committee but there were two organisations from day one.

    For several years the Searchlight strategy had been local autonomous groups campaigning on the local issues that the fascists were using around the country. The Searchlight web site lists dozens of these including some UAF branches which have broken with the centre because of the inactivity,opportunism and corruption.

    Searchlight centrally would provide intelligence on the BNP around the country but the campaign was always locally based and highly effective. Information obtained by using informers has led to documentaries like the “Secret Agent” which exposed Griffin calling Islam a wicked, evil religion and Mark Cotrell comapring himself to Hitler. The most recent coup was one exposing one of the BNPs London candidates justifying rape.

    UAF demanded that all existing anti fascist groups rename themselves as local UAF branches and that they pay for centrally produced literature which they would then distribute under the supervision of the local SWP. They were of course told to piss off all around the country.

    There were a couple of nasty incidents were SWP/UAF branches turned up at local anti fascist meetings and phsically threatened people. What then happened was that the local SWP branch simply became the local UAF branch. It was the most blatant example of political opportunism and they were shown up for what they were from the start.

    The UAF tactic was that of the 1970s, have a meeting where the already converted were preached to, issue press statements like the one given as a link by Parvinder, and wave lollypops.

    The Searchlight tactic was to get out onto the estates around the country wher whites were voting BNP, knock on doors and talk to them, put out area specific leaflets exposing their lies.

    A good example of this was in Keighly in Yorkshire where a well known local scandal of Sain men grooming young white girls for sex was being ignored by police and the local authorities. It was getting the BNP huge amounts of support. The local anti fascist group supported by Ann Cryer the MP leafleted estates and pressured the authorities to do something. Eventually ten Pakistani men went to prison and the mother of one of the girls stood against the BNP and won!

    This was denouced by UAF as “pandering to racism”. They have the non white person as the perpetual victim and as all whites were racist to knock on doors and talk to them was doing the same thing.

    The UAF strategy has always been that the anti fascist movement must be “black led” because only “black” people are oppressed by fascism! They have actually called for the movement to be led by a coalition of black/minority/ethnic/gay/lesbian/transgender/bisexuals. If the situation wasn’t so serious they would be a joke.

    Eventually the two Searchlight reps resigned from the steering group and there was a principled article in the magazine stating that it was impossible to work in UAF as decisions were being taken elsewhere and not on the steering committee.

    Once again this was denounced as sabotage and there were screams for unity. Parvinder, unity with whom around what? Call me naive but anything built on lies and sectarianism is bound to fail as UAF has. The link you gave was the founding statement five years ago, none of those people did anything and were just signatures.

    Go to the site now and look at supporters.
    ANL,Love Music Hate Racism are both SWP fronts.Show Racism the Red Card, what does it do? As for the unions NATFE is now the University and College Union, tiny, and as for the National Union of Mineworkers, pluhees.

    One of the other problems that UAF had was that it existed or didn’t depending on the needs of the SWP central committee. In the campaign against the BNP in Barking and Dagenham in 06 when they made the breakthrough UAF didn’t show up as they were all in Tower Hamlets wearing their Respect hats campaigning for George Galloway.

    In the three month campaign in London and around the country leading up to the May elections they did nothing, not a single leaflet was put out and they know that everyone sees them as liars so they are not even claiming to have done any work on their web site.

    Dalbir,

    There is a constant debate going as to where the movement is going and the current edition of Searchlight deals with this in detail. You might be able to read the Nick Lowles article at http://www.searchlightmagazine.com but if not then I will sent the whole magazine to Sunny and he can give the link.

    Right, just finished my eggs florentine and I,m going up the pub. Halima, are you still in Nepal or is there another Halima from Brick Lane?

  118. flipside — on 7th June, 2008 at 2:44 pm  
  119. Fred Jones — on 7th June, 2008 at 3:35 pm  

    Searchlight seem to base their analysis on why the BNP has done well in some areas, especially areas where people are alienated, unemployed, with few academic qualifications, etc, on the notion that Labour have not served these people well, and the BNP has filled that vacuum. But this is only a small part of the true explanation – the bigger picture is this: NONE of the establishment parties – Lib/Lab/Con/Greens/UKIP etc – actually serve any part of the electorate; it’s just that the only people on whom this fact has dawned are the disaffected working class voters, who, thanks to the BNP, have been shown this. Affluent or middle class voters are now finding out, as the credit squeeze and high food and fuel prices start to bite – and they too are finding – again thanks to the BNP, and, curiously thanks to Searchlight and the anti BNP campaigners – that all of the establishment parties serve only the global, powerful, parasitic elites who promote mass immigration into the UK and other European nations to destroy our once cohesive societies, to lower wage levels, destroy the family – the bedrock of civilisation – by promoting feminism, homosexuality and political correctness – aided and abetted by their control of the international media and all for their own ends. I thought such a conspiracy was fantasy until I noticed a vital clue – ie the nature of the people in Searchlight and other anti BNP outfits like the trade union leaders – yes, that’s right, they all worship at the shrine of Marx, totalitarian communism, the Holocaust, and have a disproportionate number of Jews in their ranks. Could it all happen again? Did Hitler have a point? Evidently Searchlight and their fellow travellers seem to think so.

    billericaydicky – do you know anything about the person who calls himself Nick Lowles?

  120. flipside — on 7th June, 2008 at 3:43 pm  
  121. flipside — on 7th June, 2008 at 3:47 pm  
  122. billaricaydicky — on 7th June, 2008 at 4:40 pm  

    I think Fred Jones is a conspiracy nutter called Larry O,Hara. Check him out on google people!

    Big up UAF I’ve called you scumbags.

    It’s all gone quiet over there,
    It’s all gone quiet over there,
    It,s all gone quiet, it,s all gone quiet,
    it,s all gone quiet over there!

  123. billericaydicky — on 8th June, 2008 at 4:16 pm  

    The articles I refered to above can be seen on http://www.searchlightmagazine.com. Should be required reading for anyone concerned about the BNP.

  124. Fred Jones — on 8th June, 2008 at 5:49 pm  

    The Searchlight artice should indeed be required reading for anyone concerned about the BNP, particularly as Searchlight are admitting defeat. It’s no business of theirs to interfere in other people’s democratic choice by telling lies and intimidating the electorate. The only proper British way would be for a Searchlight candidate to stand against a BNP candidate, with a clear list of Searchlight policies – like welcoming all foreigners to Britain, lowering the homosexual age of consent to 15, promoting the destruction of British society through mass immigration, promoting loony feminists, adopting communism and destroying social order etc – but they will not because they aren’t British. Perhaps a SWP candidate could stand instead….no, perhaps not.

  125. Parvinder Singh — on 9th June, 2008 at 3:30 pm  

    billericaydicky, thanks for your long essay on the subject, apologise that I couldn’t reply sooner as I have better things to do over the weekend than sit in front of a computer.
    I have a lot of respect for Gerry Gable and Searchlight so thanks for the insight to recent events which I will look into. I was unaware we now refer to anti-fascists as ‘scumbags’ though.
    auf wiedersehen

  126. Fred Jones — on 10th June, 2008 at 8:42 am  

    “I have a lot of respect for Gerry Gable and Searchlight” says Parvinder Singh – oh really? Gerry Gable was once a candidate for the British Communist Party, which is linked to the Communist International, which derived from the people who murdered the cousins of our Queen – the Russian Romanovs in 1917 – before going on to murder a further 20 or 30 million Russians. Searchlight is a Jewish Communist front who hate Britain and wish to destroy our nation by mass immigration – and you have “a lot of respect” for them?! So does that mean you wish to see this counry’s traditional culture and identity destroyed in a similar way? The BNP oppose this, so Searchlight oppose the BNP – wake up!

  127. billericaydicky — on 10th June, 2008 at 9:32 am  

    Parvinder,

    You may have guessed that I don,t exactly like UAF and with good reason. As I have shown with the demise of the National Assembly Against Racism it is now totally controlled by the SWP. Over the years I have seen how that organisation will move into and take over campaigns and when they have been milked for whatever gains could be made, usually money, dropped.

    UAF is now a hollow shell but even when it had some membership it did absolutely nothing against the BNP except talk. Hundreds of thousands of pounds of trade union money has been diverted to the SWP. One of their members in Dagenham claims that UAF distributed one and a half million leaflets against the BNP when in fact even though they were given the money by the unions not a single leaflet was even printed.

    The only thing they did was to organise a festival four days before the election at which they told people to register to vote even though it was two weeks too late.

    They have launched viscious smear campaigns against genuine anti fascists but their main claim to be called scum bags is to steal money intended to fight the BNP.

    They are noticable here by their absence, you would have thought they would have had at least one post to refute the mass of evidence that I have produced against them.

    I have said above that I may be naive in thinking that we should behave in a principled way rather backstabbing and sabotaging but that is me I am afraid.

    Fred Jones is definately the nutcase conspiracy theorist Larry O’Hara.

  128. flipside — on 10th June, 2008 at 10:43 am  
  129. Fred Jones — on 10th June, 2008 at 3:24 pm  

    Billerickydicky protesteth too much – he must be Larry O’Hara. Pleased to hear about uaf wasting union money!

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