Is London too large?
Ken Livingstone’s concession speech impressed many, including me. Despite his many failings, he clearly cares about London, and I hope that he stands again in 2012. Some on the left could learn from his dignified exit, as numerous left-wing commentators have turned their scorn on the great unwashed for daring to vote for someone the great and good disapproved of. DonaldS over at Liberal Conspiracy even suggests that Boris Johnson wasn’t the choice of Londoners because the outlying boroughs don’t really count as London. Was this a case of sour grapes? Yes, but he still made a good point.
I live in Greater London, but not the central bit, and the idea that I am a Londoner doesn’t really appeal to me. I voted in the London elections, but I think that I, and many others in the outlying areas, would be happiest if we were simply cut off from mayoral control. Under Ken Livingstone, it seemed as if the only London that mattered was the inner bit, yet the rest of us were still paying for it. Gretaer London is too large an entity for most people to develop an affinity with it, so Boris Johnson’s first order of business should be to set us free, even if that dooms him in four years’ time.
You couldn’t be more wrong Rumbold IMHO. The whole point of a viable London mayoralty was to promote joined up thinking on transport, etc. We stand or fall together.
But I do agree with you. Scratch the skin of some on the left and it’s not too long before you uncover a fascist snob.
Despite his many failings, he clearly cares about London, and I hope that he stands again in 2012.
Why do people feel they need to show magnanimity in victory? It’s such a trite gesture. You won; big up your blonde clown.
I concur that though I am glad he is no longer our Mayor, he has agreed to serve the public and continue carrying out the civic duties that he has hitherto done with such gusto and energy.
Stop being such a sore loser.
To gloat would be altogether too self-important.
And those of us who quite rightly plumped for Mr.Johnson know that his self-deprecation and good humour is what he’s really about and a sign of the man for who he really is- gracious in victory as Mr.Livingstone was in defeat.
Stop being such a sore loser.
only joking with Rumby who’s been our resident Ken hater for the last few months, and only now seems to see his good qualities.
To gloat would be altogether too self-important.
yep, and that would be completely in character with Bojo.
Well Livingstone is the one who fought a campaign to tarnish Johnson as a clown.
Staidly, Johnson resisted the urge to fight dirty and didn’t resort to the same low brow antics that Livingstone unfortunately appeared to choose to advocate.
How so?
New Labour, under Brown, is completing the job of driving this country into a ditch which Phony Tony began all those years ago. Education, NHS, immigration, integration, the economy, the industrial base, housing and finance, transport and infrastructure, Iraq - everything they’ve done this century has been one unending clusterfuck.
The only people I see crying over this lot are the PP and the CIF types who seem to live in a Polly Toynbee world entirely of their own making.
You are seeing, I think, a previous maverick, being tied into party politics. He has had to play the game plan laid out by the Party, and he has won as a consequence. His lip was buttoned, and sadly, it will be for evermore. I liked Boris because he was different. Now, he’ll just be a bit more of the same.
Bollox,
We’re not in your ditch yet. I know what a clusterfuck is, and despite your hysteria, we’re not there yet.
Calm down.
“not there yet.”
hopefully a new government will make sure of it.
And, pray, how exactly are New Labour responsible for the credit crunch?
Or the decline of this country’s ‘industrial base’?
douglas, Sir- you could have so easily have been referring to Red Ken there…
The perception that the outer boroughs aren’t part of London is one that Ken did very little to dispel. I live in one of said outer boroughs and it’s one of the larger ones. Boris visited this borough five times whilst campaigning. You know how many times Ken visited it? None.
My feelings are mixed. I didn’t particularly want Boris to win (much though I enjoyed winding Leon up about it over the last couple of months) and I didn’t vote for him, mainly because I didn’t want black and Asian Londoners to feel the way many Jews did when Ken was mayor, but I did want Ken out. I think the mayor should make everyone feel represented and included, which is exactly what Ken did not do, which in turn is why he’s out. I don’t think that either man is the devil incarnate but I am glad that Ken and Labour got the kick up the arse they deserved, because both had become far too complacent about the extent of the goodwill of their electorate.
Have not posted for as while, but here’s my 2 cents:
1.)Ken should have never rejoined the NU Party.
ARRRRGGHGGG
Have not posted for as while, but here’s my 2 cents:
1.)Ken should have never rejoined the NU Party.
2.)Stay away from Lunatics off any sort.
3.) Stick to transportation.
Ken is a brilliant operator, but did he piss off people too much?? I think so. BUT Boris did also lose the rector vote in my school (edinburgh):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson
how can he now be mayor of London. How will he ever work out how to solve PFI in the tube??
Sahil
As an Asian teenager having been born, raised and currently residing in London, I can assure you that your guilt was unnecessary: in fact, I daresay, that taking a straw poll amongst my peers, we were, for the most part, plumping for Boris.
London isn’t too big; I have mates who live in the outer donut and I live a bit more central and we get on fine and all feel like Londoners…if anything London should withdraw from the rest of Britain, I mean we’re practically a city state as it is!
Rumbold,
Correct me if I wrong, but London, as it is currently constituted accounts for around 20% of the people that make up this country. 9m Londoners. 55m population. 10/50 = 20% circa.
OK, it is important, but it doesn’t represent most of us. Though it thinks it does…
What ought to be more worrying is the losses elsewhere.
I’m definitely voting SNP next time….
But it is generally agreed amongst some pollsters and psephologists that London acts somewhat as a ‘Litmus Test’ for the rest of the country.
Or so Tony Travers of The LSE fame, would have me believe.
Nav,
Perhaps, South of the Border, you think London leads. I’ll stand corrected, but from an SNP viewpoint, I’d have thought this was a win win.
Not that I think BOJo’s election had sent ripples through the Scottish electorate, it, clearly hasn’t, but it will be a straw in the wind.
It is pretty clear that what is party politics as usual, South of The Border, is not going to cut the mustard, North of the Border.
Whilst you are in a left - right division, it seems to me at least, we are in a in - out debate. To the extent it matters, I’d have thought BoJo was a negative.
In what sense?
Nav,
I don’t want to make too much of this, really. However, you asked.
Generally speaking, no self regarding Scot, whether they are Atheist, Jewish, Muslim or Jain, would have anything whatsoever but contempt for an Eton Man.
It seems to me, and I think it is a view that is pretty much shared North of the Border, that you are what you are. You are not ‘better’ ’cause you’re a public school wanker.
If Boris Johnson has a go at Glasgow, as opposed to Liverpool, he would be being very foolish, and fopishness would not get him off.
Equally, if you say you are Scottish, whether you are ex-English, Muslim or whatever, we welcome you. AFAIK you do not have to pass some ridiculous memory test..
(Stands back for the flack)
BoJo is what we see as ’silly’ about the English
douglas clark
I find Scottish nationalists quite chauvinistic and childish.
Oh nor me, I’m just annoyingly inquisitive.
Somewhat odd to tar all Etonians with the same brush, but fine.
But it’s not something anyone- or at least, from my experiences- who attends or has attended a public school wishes to establish- this presumed air of superiority that we’re supposed to shoulder doesn’t really exist.
And the wanker bit was a bit harsh.
I do partake in some self-loving but ouch.
I daresay I feel more welcomed in England as the son of Punjabi Sikh immigrants than it would appear young Scottish Pakistani men in Glasgow do…
Pablo,
Perhaps you do. I’d stand by what I said. Which, you, ridiculously, see as chauvanistic and childish. Where do you come from Pablo. Central downtown London, or where? AFAIK the opinion I expessed is pretty well a given North of the Border. Sure, you can find another viewpoint, but, unless you’ve evidence to the contrary, it is a very small minority point of view. Just out of interest, how many of your BNP candidates have been elected North of the Border, huh!
Nav,
Ask Anas.
“Generally speaking, no self regarding Scot, whether they are Atheist, Jewish, Muslim or Jain, would have anything whatsoever but contempt for an Eton Man.
It seems to me, and I think it is a view that is pretty much shared North of the Border, that you are what you are. You are not ‘better’ ’cause you’re a public school wanker.”
An interesting example of unquestioned irrational prejudice. Merely being “an Eton Man” justifies contempt and whatever his other qualities Johnson can be dismossed as “a public school wanker” and that is what he is because he spent a few years at Eton. Substitute any other words for “Eton Man” or “public school wanker”- “schemie with a chip on his shoulder”, say, and there’d be sparks flying.
And how many SNP supporters actually hold similar racial views to BNP supporters, Douglas Clark?
Roger,
None that I know, Roger.
BoJo makes much of his own buffoonery. Whilst you might see his vagueness, upper class twitishness and complete inability to hold a brief - the new Routemasters will, I’d be willing to predict, die a death - I am under no obligation to buu the package.
Old Etonian are you Roger?
buu should be buy.
I have no idea whether “outer Londoners” feel like “Londoners” or not.
However, these are the people who are *most* affected by the area over which the mayor has most control - transport.
They will travel further to work, whether by public transport or car. They will pay the most in fares.
On the other hand if the group of boroughs around where I live consisting of Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and the City wanted to band together and declare independence that would be totally fine with me!
El Cid:
But does an integrated transport system have to be a London thing? Why not have it on a national level instead?
Sid:
I wanted Ken out and I am glad that he went, but his speech still impressed me. I do think that he cares about London.
Douglas:
No, it does not represent the whole country, but it is still important. Greater London has a population roughly equivalent to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It returns Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MPs, and is the political and financial capital of the UK.
But why does going to public school/Eton automatically make you a bad candidate? That seems to me to be the same as saying that anyone who attended a comprehensive is incapabale of holding high office. Boris was also a King’s scholar at Eton, which meant that he was smart enough for the school to give him money to help pay for his education.
Rumbold: No.
Douglas, with respect, this is a London thread — about a global city with a population the size of a small country. And you want us to focus on Scotland, which, incidently, the people of London subsidise. Ok, fair enough. That’s what you bring to the table. That’s your right.
But to suggest in the process that the Scottish are somehow less prejudiced than the neighbouring English is ridiculous. All populations have their nasty xenophobic side. The SNP might have far higher standards and more credible objectives than the BNP, but I bet some of its constituency isn’t very nice. You’re just lucky that they have a big nasty neighbour to despise — that way you can always give it a positive spin.
El Cid, when did you turn into an angry middle-aged tosser?
Yeah, but am I right?
“And how many SNP supporters actually hold similar racial views to BNP supporters, Douglas Clark?
None that I know, Roger.”
And how many do you know? Certainly, in the USA, identifying as a Scottish natinalist is often code for racialism.
“Old Etonian are you Roger?”
Not at all, Dougie. I merely dislike prejudice against people for where they went to school as much as prejudice against people for their ancestry or where they were born or where they live. There are quite enough reasons to dislike Johnson without rsorting to bad ones.
Rumbold:
I doubt it entirely feasible in both practical and economic terms but it would, no doubt be a boon for the entire country to be connected via a common transport system.
Rumbold -
I will be honest that I am not too sure about some of the sentiment in the article - London boundaries are London boundaries, elections are fought on them and there can be no complaint after the fact.
I am not aware of any campaigns on the part of any of the boroughs to be removed from the GLA area?
That said. I live in Watford and in local government terms, this is the first authority outside of London. It is true to say I think that here and in the ‘fringes’ (here at least) there is very little feeling of ‘Londonness.’ To that extent, the article is making a rasonable point. I am not aware that the Council here looked into entering the GLA, though it may have done at the time in 2000.
The slightly bigger issue in this, and somehting that does need looking at, is the ‘regional’ tier. Though places like Watford, St Albans, Rickmansworth, bits of Buckinghamshire etc are not ‘London’ they are more in a ‘London Region’ than any type of ‘South East Region.’
In that sense, I suspect that you idea of an ‘Inner London Mayoralty’ with a more sensible regional co-ordinating body’ may be a good idea and would reflect the south east more effectively.
El Cid,
Which is why I said in post 19, remember that far back? :
“I don’t want to make too much of this, really. However, you asked.”
Boris Johnson appears, to me at least to have lived almost exclusively in the world of mainstream media and politics for his whole adult life. Perhaps not exclusively the Westminster bubble, but certainly the Metropolitan elite bubble. Perhaps these days that is the CV you need, but it seems a bit thin to me.
Roger, I frankly couldn’t give a flying toss about what folk in the USA say. The SNP - and I’m not even a member or a fellow traveller - are on record as wanting more immigrants into Scotland, which flies in the face of the Westminster consensus.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2160531.0.salmond_rejects_plea_to_curb_immigration.php
I agree this is derailing the thread, so I’ll shut up now.
“The SNP - and I’m not even a member or a fellow traveller - are on record as wanting more immigrants into Scotland, which flies in the face of the Westminster consensus.”
That’s because Scotland has a much bigger area and many fewer people than England, which is where most immigrants go, and especially London. Indeed the population of Scotlsnd is predicted to decline for the foreseeable future.
I have much the same opinion of Johnson that you do. i don’t think that making gibes about his education is as persuasive an argument against him as his more recent career though. Indeed, comparing the last Scottish PMs before Blair and Brown, both may have been Conservative but both were much more socialist in social and tax policies than their successors and both were educated at Eton.
[...] energy into analysing why your candidate was beaten and work towards it not happening again? As Rumbold at Pickled Politics says, a lot of commentators culd learn from Ken Livinstone’s dignified exit speech (as could those [...]
which borough do you live in then rumbold?
MaidMarian:
I backed Boris, so this is not a case of sour grapes. I was just wondering whether people in outer London do feel like Londoners. Perhaps, as people have pointed out, the transport benefits from an integrated system outweigh the feeling of remoteness. I suppose that the mayor’s powers and budget (£11 billion), is pretty samll anyway, so it is probably somewhat of a non-issue.
Sonia:
One of the outer ones.
If I was running a book — which I’m not — I offer the following odds.
Waltham Forest, Havering, Redbridge or Bexley 3/1
Hillingdon, Harrow, Hounslow - 13/8
Croydon, Sutton - Evens
Barnet, Enfield - 8/13
Bromley, Richmond, Kingston — 3/8
Am I warm?
Yes and no.
Actually, if you are taking bets, can I make one (I will lay out £1000)?
Thought you might. But I’m not.
Rumbold -
Yes, I agree, I mentioned in my post that at least here in Watford way and well into the outer fringes of London I see little feeling of Londonness. I don’t know if it is different around the fringes, but the article does raise an interesting question.
We get two bus routes (142 and 258) and the Metropolitan line out here but not that much else. Of course LU have been reluctant to extend the Metropolitan Line, I understand, in part because it is not in the GLA. Were the original plans for a Watford Town Centre station to be revived there I am quite sure it would be a very lucrative line and would slash traffic on the Watford ring-road. Oh well.
Just one other thought. There is a TFL leaflet called ‘around the fringe.’ This details TFL services that are on the travelcard system but operate outside the GLA area. I have only ever been able to get a copy of this in Zone 1!!!
Which one?
there is an ‘n’ in it
I’m betting he’s a Croydon boy.
you think? he’s not very impressed then by mayoral efforts like the croydon tramlink or east london line extension to croydon.
what are the schools like in your manor Rumbold (state schools)?
Roger,
Whilst I’d happily take a population per square kilometre arguement to prove the point you are trying to make, in actual geographical terms Scotland is circa 80k sq kilometres and England is circa 130k sq kilometres.
My issue with Johnson is that his parents bred him to be what he is today. Is that his fault? No. But it is a ruling class precept, as you rightly pointed out about Alec Douglas Hume and, err, The Earl of Roseberry? Who the hell was the Earl of Roseberry? Not a name I am familiar with.
Paying to rule is probably a concept that is past it’s sell by date, but you and Rumbold both think I am being gauche by mentioning it. Hell, we had class arguements long before we had all this multicultural stuff. Perhaps I’m just nostalgic, but it seems to me that that was a more honest debate. Toffs, your good self and Rumbold -v- Chavs like me….
My apologies, Doug: I meant- as you inferred- that Scotland has a much lower population density than England. You acknowledge that some of your dislike of Johnson is based on his parents’ actions, not his own and therefore not rationally justified.
What is a “ruling class precept”? I merely pointed out that Douglas-Home and Macmillan- Eton-educated “toffs”- were economically and socially much more progressive and egalitarian than our current Labour government. Do you disagree?
“Paying to rule” isn’t a concept that’s past its sell-by date, I think- it sounds like progressive and draconic income tax. If you mean “paying for education”, unfortunately, that isn’t past its sell-by date either, though it should be. I don’t know what class you or Rumbold come from or are in or believe you come from or are in. What I do know is that Johnson’s supposed class membership is irrelevant to his fitness to be mayor of London. The policies he proposes are not.
Leon. El Cid:
Yes, my borough does have an ‘n’ in it, innit.
Douglas:
I can’t see you in a baseball cap.