A brilliant, brilliant article
I only wish British Muslims (and other brown Britons) were this politically astute. Asim Siddiqui has written this article on CIF pointing out how the Muslims4Ken made things worse for Ken Livingstone.
Whilst Muslim lobby groups are to be commended for encouraging Muslim Londoners to register, vote and take part in the democratic process, we need to ask whether their strategy of campaigning for the “Muslim vote” backfired? Did it play directly into the hands of Ken’s adversaries in attempting to smear Ken by association and mobilising otherwise apathetic surburban Londoners to come out for Boris?
…
The last time I recall the “Muslim vote” being mobilised so counter-productively was in the US during the 2000 presidential elections when American Muslims were urged to vote for George W Bush (against Al Gore and Joe Lieberman). It was felt that an Al Gore victory, coupled with an assassin’s bullet, would leave a Jewish, and presumed pro-Israel candidate, as president. Instead, they got Bush and Cheney! How’s that for a counterproductive strategy?
Spot on! Asim adds to this:
Muslim lobbyists, by trying to put all their eggs in Ken’s basket, had no Plan B. Other minorities showed greater political nuance. I saw no JewsforBoris or GaysforBrian campaigns, for example. We were never voting for the mayor of Jerusalem
Well, we did have ‘Progressives for against Ken’, another immature campaign. Harry’s Place, who were a leading proponent of this strategy, don’t know what to say now that Boris is in power. C’mon guys, no champagne bottles being popped? I thought you’d be ecstatic that Boris the Tory was in power? It was obvious by the last week the choice was only between Ken and Boris. If you want Ken out then you must not have a problem with Boris coming in, right? Apparently not.
That stupid letter was among the worst things to befall Ken Livingstone. If you can’t frikking mobilise your vote because you don’t have real grassroots pull, as neither Anas Altkriti nor Azzam Tamimi did, then there’s no point helping the opposition. Boris should thank these two and the MCB for the letter.
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I hardly think it matters whether there is a group of Muslims supporting him. Ken lost because over these 8 years, he has demonstrated to be an arrogant politician, who alienated a lot of moderate Londoners by giving a platform to people who have no commitment to progressive values and democracy. What is the point of of rejecting the BNP, but having a close relationship with Al Qaradawi – and thereby insinuating that defending suicide bombings in Israel and executing homosexuals is a matter of opinion? Ken symbolises everything I hate about the Left.
And yet at the end, I did vote for him, because the alternative is so far far worse. Boris is literally a clown, and I wonder if he will be able to complete one full mandate.
You and me both Ravi!
But I do think that lobbying too much along racial lines is divisive and not befitting a great global city. Who knows what the impact was at the margins?
But I agree, if you stay too long in power, people tend to go off you.
I hardly think it matters whether there is a group of Muslims supporting him.
You misunderstand the point. The Muslims4Ken was abysmally bad at getting out the Muslim vote, as Asim pointed out. For all their claims about being grass-roots activists, they handed out a few leaflets at mosques, railed about it on the Islam Channel, and still failed.
The point is that papers like the Evening Standard used it against them anyway and as a result made the tories more willing to go out there and vote.
Boris might’ve won just because people saw him on TV and this country is obsessed with celebrity this and that ..
I really don’t think people think that hard when they vote – average person was still thinking the bendy buses were a pain in London – as though this was the only thing the GLA achieved under Ken. The bendy buses were the least important bit of transport reform. But there you go.
yes, Evening Standard campaign was viscious ..
Ken was by far the only competent candidate which is why I voted for him. London will only know now what a great mayor he was now that they have lost him.
But in the final analysis, Ken lived and died by the curse of identity politics. Ken surrounded himself in City Hall with Asian/Muslims who played identity/religious politics to their benefit. His tenure, from way back to the GLC days, was characterised by the faces of the smug opportunists of the Lee Jaspar and Kumar Murshid kind.
It had to end in tears.
Interesting article to say the very least.
Somewhat of a sweeping generalisation, I think- not doing Boris or his campaign team much justice for the fantastic PR skills they showed on the trail for votes nor indeed just how amicable the man has proven to be, especially amongst some ethnic minorities who we were led to believe loathed the man.
Are they really to be commended?
I happened to stumble upon pro-Labour campaigners cut from the same cloth as Muslims4Ken who were using their language skills to effectively tell elderly Urdu speaking Southallers to vote Labour. Out of blind obedience they appeared to swallow the rhetoric because I heard no demonstrations for the elderly Asian chaps I happened to come across- and similarly, no instruction from the campaigners as to what Ken Livingstone has achieved in his previous two terms that would be of concern for these men nor his manifesto pledges for his potential third.
Bravo.
HAAAR!
How tragic. Wholly unfair, in my opinion that anyone backed by the “Muslim” vote should be tarred and feathered in any way, shape or form.
Hear hear.
Precisely what Livingstone and his smear campaign failed to realise- how embarrassing that he and his team misread so badly a group they lay claim to being so friendly towards.
Amongst other things…
So I’m not the only one… glad to hear it.
We shall see…
I find it terribly offensive that you consider every Joe Bloggs voter to be so simple minded as to simply vote for a name they recognise on the ballot paper without giving their decision due diligence.
And in my humble opinion, the end could not have come at a more welcome time.
Unfortunately it’s never enough for some…
That one line sums up this election, but also sums up what is so misguided and ultimately corrosove about the politics that seeks to play out overseas issues, and ethnic / religious issues here in the UK.
Excellent! The Muslims for Bush was one of the more frustrating things I’ve experienced.
Also, surely CIF isn’t an appropriate arena to play identity politics. I’m guessing that most Muslims who read CIF are quite politically aware and independent and unlikely to be swayed by the MCB.
If you want to do that type of stuff, do it through focussed, under the radar leafletting. As much as I despite it, the Karl Rove playbook has been written and is widely availabe.
“Also, surely CIF isn’t an appropriate arena to play identity politics. I’m guessing that most Muslims who read CIF are quite politically aware and independent and unlikely to be swayed by the MCB.”
To be fair, the MCB (as an organisation) called on Muslims to go and vote – not who to vote for. It was groups like MPACUK that specifically asked Muslims to vote for Ken.
I thought David T at HP put it rather well.
“I wanted to support Ken. It is just that he didn’t want my support.
So, Ken has gone. You know why I, and many people like me, found we couldn’t support him. The taxpayer funded attacks on Peter Tatchell and Trevor Phillips. The corruption. The drooling over the Cuban royal family. The championing of Qaradawi, and the disgraceful attempt to represent this reactionary advocate of terrorism and theocracy, as a modern and progressive voice. The association with Socialist Action. The attempt to forge an alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood. The unapologetic racist slurs. The leveling of the charge of racism against those who merely questioned his politics. The weirdness. The nastiness.”
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/02/goodbye-king-newt/#comments
Believe it or not, I voted for Ken in 2000!
whenever a pretentious blogger talks about ones lack of grass roots support i laugh.
muslims for ken was rather dumb, and then it was spun by the actual evil ones. however, depressing as this result is, im not sure how much damage it did. a lot of people generally were knocking on doors to get votes out, grass roots, green shoots, blossoms whatever.
it doesnt always work out though. tis the nature of the beast. why cant you see that rather than harping on your own damaging high horses about the leaders that ken met and blaming some muslims?
we still love you ken, you still are mister london. all that you have done and all that we all will benefit from because of your foresight in the fields of transport and the like will bear the imprint of your broad mind.
Well, we did have ‘Progressives for against Ken’, another immature campaign. Harry’s Place, who were a leading proponent of this strategy, don’t know what to say now that Boris is in power. C’mon guys, no champagne bottles being popped? I thought you’d be ecstatic that Boris the Tory was in power? It was obvious by the last week the choice was only between Ken and Boris. If you want Ken out then you must not have a problem with Boris coming in, right? Apparently not.
Er Sunny I for one ain’t popping no champagne.
No its not brilliant -its depressing. Its basically saying that a minority cannot stick its head above the parapet and call for voting for a particular candidate (a right everyone else has) as this will anger the majority who will vote against them.
Youand Asim are effectively saying Muslims shouldnt declare who they want to win because then a larger bank of islamophobes will vote against that candidate simply because Muslims are for him/her. How deprssing is that?
In other words dont get uppity darkie and demand democratic equality- know your place as a minority and dont do anything that would upset the majority. Know who’s in charge. Minorities have to curb public expression of their political views to please the majority. Is this democracry? What a joke .
Mob rule by the ballot is far better than by riots and pogroms but its still the same thing.
Spot on Ali. The Evening Standard can conduct a long concerted pro-Boris, anti-Islam/immigration campaign to appeal to a certain group of voters. But the moment Muslims start grouping together in an attempt to “mobilise” it’s the height of idiocy, if not something more sinister.
I’m not a little ashamed of living in a city where the fucking Suburbians have the power to vote in a reactionary elitist muppet.
No its not brilliant -its depressing. Its basically saying that a minority cannot stick its head above the parapet and call for voting for a particular candidate
Welcome to the world of politics. In many ways its political correctness and good thinking – not everything can be said in polite society.
Similarly, a proponent of suicide bombing and another supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood running a campaign in favour of a candidate already under attack for alienating London’s Jews – not a good idea. Actually its a stupid idea.
The letter was also a stupid idea because it perpetuates the belief that identity politics, and pitting one community against another, is the only way for anyone to win. Ken must suck up to Muslims, without care for Jews and others, is how it comes across.
No one said don’t organise or mobilise. Do it. They failed abysmally at that too. but that letter was simply an attempt to show force and hope it had an impact. It backfired. So it helped Ken lose. I hope they’re happy about that.
I dont wholly agree with Asim’s article.
The way I see it, Muslims4Ken was vainly countering the massive, concerted Evening Standard Campaign – if M4K wasn’t used to strengthen ESC, then there are a myriad of other groups/campaigns/issues they would have manipulated anyway.
If anything, I am extremely disappointed that the Muslims4Ken was so damn ineffective!
Ali #15
I didn’t vote for Boris, but I see what you say and a bit of me is glad he got in. I guess that makes me an islamaphobe, since I’m not a muslim. I guess it also makes me a racist, since I’m a whitey. *shakes head*
I said
“No its not brilliant -its depressing. Its basically saying that a minority cannot stick its head above the parapet and call for voting for a particular candidate”
Sunny you said
“Welcome to the world of politics. In many ways its political correctness and good thinking – not everything can be said in polite society.”
then you said
“Similarly, a proponent of suicide bombing and another supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood running a campaign in favour of a candidate already under attack for alienating London’s Jews – not a good idea. Actually its a stupid idea.”
so its wrong and divise for Muslims to organise as a community -but its OK for other communities like Jews? If any case thats not what the article you praised said- if you want to argue against particular Muslims lobbying thats fair enough -but you and Asim are arguing against any Muslims lobbying!
In any case Asim is wrong about the 2000 elections which Bush won by the supreme court .An unforseen event 9/11 changed the Bush regime (which previously had for example criticised the Russians for Chechyna) before that it was still less anti-Muslim than the democrats. Liebermans being Jewish was irrelevant- in fact many Muslims admired the fact that he was a religious person who had made it to the top.
“The letter was also a stupid idea because it perpetuates the belief that identity politics, and pitting one community against another, is the only way for anyone to win. Ken must suck up to Muslims, without care for Jews and others, is how it comes across.”
The letter makes no reference to Jews – what are you talking about Sunny?
“No one said don’t organise or mobilise. Do it. They failed abysmally at that too. but that letter was simply an attempt to show force and hope it had an impact. It backfired. So it helped Ken lose. I hope they’re happy about that.”
Whether it helped Ken lose is debatable- but lets say it did shouldnt we examine why?
If a Hindu organisation had say backed Boris would that have led to as mass of votes to Ken?
So why would a Muslim organisation backing Ken lead to votes for Boris unless there is a resevoir of people who vote not for candidates but against Muslims (and bear in mind a rabidly anti-Muslim party got more than 5% of the vote) What does that say to Muslims who want to engage in the political process?
—————————-
El Cid
“I didn’t vote for Boris, but I see what you say and a bit of me is glad he got in. I guess that makes me an islamaphobe, since I’m not a muslim.”
I dont think you understood a word. Supporting Boris doesnt make you an Islamophobe – how could it ? supporting candidates simply because Muslims support the other candidate does.
” I guess it also makes me a racist, since I’m a whitey. *shakes head*”
who said anything about race?. Good grief!
El Cid an Islamophobe is someone who hates Muslims – not anyone who is non-Muslim
Likewise a racist is someone who hates people not other races – not any white person
Darkie. Race. QED.
Moreover, what you failed to understand is that if efforts are made to mobilise one community to vote in a certain way, it’s no great surprise if others choose to do so too. That doesn’t mean there is hatred. Resentment maybe, but hatred, nah. It’s not tyranny, it’s democracy. After all, the individual is protected by rights juriprudence.
We need to transcend race. You are so yesterday. Unfortunately, so is mostly everyone else.
Similarly, a proponent of suicide bombing and another supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood running a campaign in favour of a candidate already under attack for alienating London’s Jews – not a good idea. Actually its a stupid idea.
The letter was also a stupid idea because it perpetuates the belief that identity politics, and pitting one community against another, is the only way for anyone to win. Ken must suck up to Muslims, without care for Jews and others, is how it comes across.
Sunny, Ali makes very good points. I don’t see how a group of Muslims getting together, however ineffectually, to try and encourage others of their faith to back a candidate somehow sends out an anti-Jewish message or serves to alienate Jews. Or why it serves to alienate anyone, unless of course there isn’t a strong anti-Islamic sentiment out there already prepared to use this as fuel for their hatred. In which case why not focus your attack on that?
I don’t see how a group of Muslims getting together, however ineffectually, to try and encourage others of their faith to back a candidate somehow sends out an anti-Jewish message or serves to alienate Jews.
I’m amazed you’re being so naive here Anas. These aren’t just any two Muslims. These are people with tight links to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. If Yasmin Alibhai Brown etc had started a campaign to get Muslims voted, it would not have raised an eyebrow (and probably been as ineffectual). On top of that Ken was under attack for not apologising over the ‘concentration camp’ remark, though Boris apologied for the ‘watermelon smiles’ comment.
These guys just wanted to maek a statement to big themselves up. They have little clue about grassroots organising and it showed. If they quietly went about their business, no one would have cared.
unless of course there isn’t a strong anti-Islamic sentiment out there
Yes… I see how no one would give a shit that a guy who openly supports suicide bombing would be trying to help the London Mayor. Give it a rest.
“I’m amazed you’re being so naive here Anas. These aren’t just any two Muslims. These are people with tight links to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. If Yasmin Alibhai Brown etc had started a campaign to get Muslims voted, it would not have raised an eyebrow (and probably been as ineffectual). On top of that Ken was under attack for not apologising over the ‘concentration camp’ remark, though Boris apologied for the ‘watermelon smiles’ comment.”
It is insane to see so many so-called British liberals (even though I am not one) betray their ideals and embrace anti-semitism and homophobia just to get in good with the “oppressed minority” flavor of the month.
Erm, are you referring to me? Since when have I embraced either?
@26
Nyet….
I was referring to many politicans in general who are dumping their ideals in order to ally with arch-conservatives of minorities…
Identity politics unfortunately do a lot more harm to the ideal of an egalitarian society than good. It reduces people into a single dimension, it serves to divide our society and promote the victim mentality. Any surprise that the people they are supposed to protect become easy targets for tabloids? What has groups like MCB and other political religious groups done to Muslims and other minorities that is worth mentioning, except all the negatives?
What I find most inspiring about Obama is that he hasn’t used his race to play the victim card. He is a far superior candidate than McCain, yet his skin colour handicap makes him an equal to his opponent, and the race to the general election remains competitive. But life is never fair, and we are born with different talents and capabilities, and it is up to us to use them to get ahead in life.
I am well aware that if I was white and rich I would probably have a better shot at life and would not have to work as hard as a brown-skinned with middle-class parents. But why should you resign and play victim? It is more than possible to get ahead in life in this tolerant and liberal country, and shatter any glass ceilings if you work hard enough, and realise your dreams and aspirations in life.
The effort to overcome the disadvantages of being a minority (perceived and real) is an individual one, and will never be overcome by unscrupulous identity politics groups and the Left unknowingly playing racism of low expectations. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was no one talking about Muslim/Sikh/Hindu/Jewish/Christian/Brown/Black/White voting blocs, but of individuals with different political, social and ideological preferences regardless of the colour of their skin or religion?
read the jewish press, mate. there was no concerted campaign to vote for boris. each of the candidates (apart from the bnp, hur hur) including ken, took the trouble to do an interview with the jc and pitch for the supposed “jewish vote”. ken’s interview for some reason chose to take the tone that “what did i say? why are are you all offended?” unfortunately for him, we are not stupid.
what people i think probably fail to understand is that there isn’t a “jewish vote” – we don’t “organise as a community” or vote as a bloc – we are british citizens and all the research i’ve ever seen (plus my own empirical knowledge) says in no uncertain terms that we all divide along party lines. there are guardianista jews and torygraph jews, there are daily mail jews and galloway-sucking jews. the idea that there is a “communalist bloc” which can be delivered to city hall or to this or that party is laughable and belongs to the sort of benighted, hidebound identity politics that we may hopefully have seen the last of in london with ken’s departure – but then again i doubt it.
b’shalom
bananabrain
bananabrain, be kind to us. if only muslims could only learn the correct lessons from jewish “identity politics” instead of the spurious ones that people ususally cite, we would have figures like Isaiah Berlin rather than Azzam Tamimi.
“Boris should thank these two and the MCB for the letter.”
Sunny, we all know of your pathological hatred for the MCB, and in this instance, you’ve remained consistent. Have you actually read Asim’s article in full, or does your eyes glaze over at any positive reading of the MCB?
“British Muslim lobby groups need to internalise all this. Other UK minority lobby groups such as Operation Black Vote, the Jewish Board of Deputies and, to give them credit, the Muslim Council of Britain did not endorse any political party; rather, they encouraged minorities to vote to keep the BNP out.“
Thank you bananabrain, as always you hit the nail on the head!
I was on holiday with my family returning the day before the election and my wife asked if we could stay on for a few more days. I said no for one reason only – I wanted to come back and vote against Ken.
People don’t give a damn about Boris one way or the other. As the vote showed, all they cared about was getting rid of someone who has caused a huge amount of harm to large tranches of London and who thinks that he has the absolute right – like Mugabe – to keep on governing.
I have yet to find someone who voted for Ken. And I have yet to find someone who chose positively to vote for Boris. If there had been a monkey put forward, he would also have got our votes.
And let’s be clear on one thing. Sunny understands the reality of the world out there:
“Similarly, a proponent of suicide bombing and another supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood running a campaign in favour of a candidate already under attack for alienating London’s Jews – not a good idea. Actually its a stupid idea.
The letter was also a stupid idea because it perpetuates the belief that identity politics, and pitting one community against another, is the only way for anyone to win. Ken must suck up to Muslims, without care for Jews and others, is how it comes across.”
It certainly meant that I came home to vote for Boris and it encouraged many others who were sitting on the fence to actually go and vote against Ken.
Personally, I thought Ken, Boris, Brian and Sian were all good candidates. I voted positively, not out of fear or loathing of other candidates in this election, so I can’t see the fuss about a “Muslims4Ken” campaign.
I guess the people running the campaign might not be to the taste of the Evening Standard and its readers, and I guess that Ken would not want the votes of people who think along such lines. I never even knew about it, and it would not have affected my vote if I did.
What I would raise is that I am somewhat interested in the political philosophies and principles of candidates reflected in where they stand on global issues. I hope I am not voting for a civil service administrator, but a decision-maker who will take account of things like human rights and social justice, equality and peacemaking when making judgments and pronouncements about policy. So they may not be standing to be Mayor of Jerusalem, but a question on this issue might shed more light on their attitude to my rights than a question on bendy buses.
I’m amazed you’re being so naive here Anas. These aren’t just any two Muslims. These are people with tight links to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. If Yasmin Alibhai Brown etc had started a campaign to get Muslims voted, it would not have raised an eyebrow (and probably been as ineffectual).
Yes, I am naive because I don’t see how the inclusion of the names of a few people associated with Hamas immediately renders the whole entire list offensive to Jews and anti-Semitic (is the Muslim Brotherhood also an affront to Jews now?; i mean it’s as simple as that anyone linked with Hamas/MB is anti-Semitic now?). Or are you claiming the list consists of nothing but Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood supporters?
On top of that Ken was under attack for not apologising over the ‘concentration camp’ remark, though Boris apologied for the ‘watermelon smiles’ comment.
Funny how no-one mentions BoJo’s extremely partisan pro-Israeli stand, that causes no offense to anyone, right? He was never under attack for that, for his fundraising for the Jewish National Aparthied Fund, his comments during the Lebanon War. Makes you wonder who sets the agenda on these things (and no that’s not a reference to a Zionist conspiracy)
These guys just wanted to maek a statement to big themselves up. They have little clue about grassroots organising and it showed. If they quietly went about their business, no one would have cared.
Why should they keep their heads down? Maybe they didn’t think it through enough, or smartly enough. But there has to be a way of countering the anti-Islamic propaganda spewing out of media sources like the Evening Standard — but you’re right we should probably wait until the nice White (& non-Muslim) liberals notice to do anything about it; don’t wanna risk getting accused of paranoia.
And re: the Jewish community. If everything was so hunky dory with British Jews, why the need for the Sunny-inspired IJV to challenge pro-aparthied, pro-Zionist trends among many British Jews? (and you can’t tell me that most of the British Jewish community isn’t uncritically pro-Israeli despite a number of dissenters, bananbrain) Why is there no pressure on the Jewish community as a whole to make its views on (Israeli state) terrorism clear as there is on Muslims, whenever something horrible is committed in the name of Islam? Nothing like that happened during Lebanon which was an utterly savage act of terrorism, nothing like that is happening now with Gaza.
i mean it’s as simple as that anyone linked with Hamas/MB is anti-Semitic now?)
Yes. Read the Hamas charter lately?
Funny how no-one mentions BoJo’s extremely partisan pro-Israeli stand,
What’s that go to do with Ken’s remarks?
Makes you wonder who sets the agenda on these things
Tell me, who does?
It won’t be you, that’s for sure, when you can’t make a coherent argument.
. But there has to be a way of countering the anti-Islamic propaganda spewing out of media sources like the Evening Standard
Sure there is – get organising against the ES. What did they do though? Think that publishing a letter on the Guardian site and setting up a blog would do the job. Bloody hell, if that’s the modern Muslim activist for you, then you’re fucked aren’t you?
Anas,
I’m a bit upset about this, as I consider myself a, sort of Liberal:
Last time I looked I was freckly, however, you’d describe me as white. You know you would. However on the substantive issue of a settlement between Jews and Muslims, you bloody well know what I think.
It is that either one lot will kill the other lot, or that they will reach a compromise. I’d vote for the latter, wouldn’t you?
hamas is practically pretty autonomous of muslim brotherhood, even franchise is the wrong word. the bicycle was invented in france and adopted in britain soon after.. but probably adapted somewhere along the line. you should be careful with linking.
Establishing hamas on the uk’s terror list was a mighty success of zionists in this country. It hasnt helped the situation, only drawn lines that obstruct progress and generate pariahs, sorry ‘democratic’ pariahs. Extending the fear of the politically islamic to all others with ideologies resembling theirs (upstream and down stream) was another score. (ironic because secularists of muslim cultural background do admire ‘grassrootedness’). Extending it even further so that a white labour chap pays holocaust guilt related electoral damage for meeting an egyptian has been another acheivement.
I think there is a muslim political aspiration, and that it does express itself partially through our voting mentality. Only it seemed stronger and electorally visible when the Iraqi and Afghanistani Occupations were younger. This time around other actors have also expressed themselves, giving us a complete result for Boris.
for the past x years groups close to kens way of thinking on the ‘equality’ front have benefitted from his regime and policy environment. now its policy exchange’s turn. its the nature of the beast i guess. asims analysis is based on headlines and not voters mobilised by muslims4ken vs those mobilised negatively by them. makes good comment fodder though.
Yes. Read the Hamas charter lately?
You’re right it is anti-Semitic in a particularly vile way, and I condemn those aspects of it. But I don’t think it is as simple as X is associated with Hamas, therefore X is anti-Semitic. There is the possibility that people support Hamas because they believe, at this current juncture, it’s the best way of supporting the Palestinians, the lesser of all evils. Look at that list of names again, Sunny. Take for example Tariq Ramadan; I’ve read a couple of articles where you’ve praised him. Now suddenly he’s become an anti-Semite by association (allowing his name to be added to a list of renowned Jew haters). It’s apparently the same for everyone on that list now, according to your reasoning.
What’s that go to do with Ken’s remarks?
It flags up a strange double standard in the way both candidates were treated in the press and in blogs: one can openly fundraise for an organisation promoting aparthied — no one blinks an eyelid. But Ken makes some unwise, but not overly nasty comments and gets them constantly thrown in his face.
It won’t be you, that’s for sure, when you can’t make a coherent argument.
Hasn’t stopped Mad Mel, Richard Littlejohn, etc.
Last time I looked I was freckly, however, you’d describe me as white. You know you would. However on the substantive issue of a settlement between Jews and Muslims, you bloody well know what I think.
It is that either one lot will kill the other lot, or that they will reach a compromise. I’d vote for the latter, wouldn’t you?
Don’t get upset Douglas, I was just replying to Sunny’s attack on the Guardian letter.
Anas
You are a twit.
Muslims are asked to state their opposition to other Muslims blowing themselves up in LONDON IN THE COUNTRY WHERE WE ALL LIVE, because they want to create an Islamic fundamentalist state WHERE WE ALL CURRENTLY LIVE.
What has that got to do with Jews being asked to oppose any particular action taking place in a territorial/religious war thousands of miles away? DO I ask you to condemn the huge list of atrocities being undertaken by your co-religionists across the globe?
But I don’t think it is as simple as X is associated with Hamas, therefore X is anti-Semitic.
So I’m assuming some of your best mates are BNP members then? Come of it mate. Let us know when you’re back in the real world yeah.
there is no such relation. if buddhists had invaded and occupied palestine hamas would be against them and use non western politically correct language. centrally the problem is not with judaism, its with being occupied and wanting to change that status.
bnp (british) arent fighting a national liberation struggle. its dissapointing that people would join the dots in such a way.
“You’re right it is anti-Semitic in a particularly vile way, and I condemn those aspects of it. But I don’t think it is as simple as X is associated with Hamas, therefore X is anti-Semitic. There is the possibility that people support Hamas because they believe, at this current juncture, it’s the best way of supporting the Palestinians, the lesser of all evils.”
Anas, the above gives just about anyone licence to call you a terrorist supporter. Sad, but true. If anything your a defensive muslim; were under attack, therefore i must defend my bethren, even if some of them are to put it mildly unsavoury characters.
I will always defend you from such attacks, but you can not justify defending an anti-semitic terrorist organisation on the grounds of anti-imperialism. This is the anti-imperialism of fools; opposing injustice through supporting an organisation that is anti-semitic, misogynist and reactionary you are betraying your own values.
Asim has very selective memory and his analysis is poor. I won’t go into much detail for fear of being BB’ed but Muslims voted for Bush due to a number of factors including family values, the fact he reached out to them – being the first presidential candidate to do so and on an assumption of being fair as his father was seen to be on I/P issues. It didn’t turn out that way but they tried.
Asim is always aiming barbs at the Muslim community and the fact is that in trying to get people to vote they didn’t egt them out. But equally it should serve as a lesson for Muslims that if they don’t vote then they may end up with somethign bad like Boris.
Will Boris turn out to be another Bush?
Also aside from criticising after the fact what did Asim do at the time? Also did he choose to endorse a candidate?
Sometimes it takes a bit of courage to endorse one person who you think may help your community instead of sitting on the fence and saying I told you so afterwards.
Asim needs to provide a degree of mature leadership for his community and his organisation is in itself elitist and rarely has contacts with grassroots. So hardly a shining example in itself being for City based professionals so he himself is endorsing a certain type of Muslim and then telling others off when they do the same!!
As I said before the Muslim Community liek much of the Asian Community is still an maturing community in terms of electoral know-how and mistakes will be made. Thus it is unfair to bash them everytime for trying which is what people here and Asim tend to do.
Sunny – have you ever considered the fact that with the vote being so close and the exposure of his shortcomings and pretty stupid statements led Boris to conclude he needs to do more to understand the immigrant comunity that so despises him and thus he said he would make an effort to work for all of London? Maybe the campaign and this letter itself will lead to a bit of soul searching in Boris?
The reason Boris has a one-sided attitude is due to political exposure but now he can either carry on or fo a Bloomberg and work for all the city.
Don’t forget Bloomberg was a pretty right wing guy in a city with a sizable Jewish and Muslim population and he hasn’t done too badly in reaching out to both sets of communities despite his right wing views. So Boris can either follow him or carry on down his one way street. But either way Bloomberg faced a similar situation and came to a pretty middle ground.
Lets hope Boris does the same.
Also blaming Muslims and Ethnic Minorities for the defeat of Ken is hardly fair. There were a number of issues which also brought apathy against Labour which affected Ken’s vote. In other circumstances he would have won.
Ken did a great deal for a multi-cultural city and Boris now has a job on his hands to show that the right itself can respect immigrants needs.
Given Ken’s contributions to all of London then ole Boris has a job to do in convincing people.
Also in the past Muslims have endorsed Ken openly and that didn’t affect the white vote who also voted for him so this time the sematics changed due to other negative press. Thus Asim blaming Muslims is inaccurate and simply a sign of someone who is immature in their own analysis.