I would say that it would actually be a list of requests. This is a democracy – you can ask for anything you want. Doesn’t mean you’ll get it though!

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown brought up the topic of MCB’s booklet (list of demands) that they sent round to schools asking for Muslims pupils to be excused for everything that brings them closer to non-Muslim pupils. That sort of exposed them I guess.

BMSD is different from the other Muslim organisations and even that of Sikhs, Hindus etc, since its run mainly by women and some men. Now there’s a major change isn’t it?

Hopefully now articulate, bright Muslims will not have any excuse that there is no one to provide them with a platform to resonate their ideas and views. There is BMSD to do just that.

I agree with that. I’m Christian and I can say without a doubt that most of us are hypocrites.

Again my concern is the focus is being taken of the fight against extremism as people fight labels.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Douglas Clark: I’d agree that most muslims in the UK both see themselves as muslims and favour secular democracy. They haven’t thought through the logic of their situation though. Either the quran is the literal word of god and it’s a set of orders to be obeyed absolutely or it isn’t. If people reject one part then the whole thing unravels. Christianity and judaism have the advantage that they are supposedly concerned with the word of god as interpreted by men and have a lot more leeway than islam. The caliphate-or-bust brigade have very good reason to dislik and fear things like this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/02/islam.religion

http://www.thecitycircle.com/blog2.php?cann_id=471

We, by which I mean British society, have spent centuries tearing down a similar piece of nonsense. It is still unfinished work, but we are getting there. ‘Cause the Bible tells me so used to be respectable, after all. There are, unfortunately, still Christians in high office of State, still willing to be guided by their idea of God. However, they are a decreasing minority, and misrepresentative of UK society, generally.

At least those that wear it on their sleeve.

Muslims that wish to establish a caliphate here should be, quite simply, ridiculed. Silly twits. Farting against thunder.

I’d have thought that actually most Muslims in this country do believe in a secular democracy, and do still see themselves as Muslims. I’d be astonished if it were otherwise….

Easy! The MP doesn’t exist anymore! In 1998 it split into London and Manchester factions and then it was downhill all the way. I think Dr Ghayasuddin is the ONLY member!

How about this, Ghayasuddin going over to Iran to persuade Khomeni to issue a fatwa against Rushdie:
http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/bmms/1998/03March98.html#Rushdie review

According to an article in the (Asian Times, 10.03.98), it appears that the Iranian government has assured Mary Robinson, the present United Nations Human Rights Commissioner, that it will not attempt to carry out the death sentence on Salman Rushdie (see BMMS for January and February 1998). However, Mohammed Javed Zarif, the Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister who gave this assurance, also said that it was impossible to revoke the fatwa pronounced against Rushdie by the late Ayatollah Khomeini. Dr Robinson made her announcement at a press conference at the end of a two-day seminar on human rights which she was attending in Iran. Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament, maintained that the situation has not changed with this pronouncement. He said: “We supported the fatwa when it was first imposed and our position remains the same today. Rushdie has never repented for his actions” (Asian Times, 10.03.98)

‘I agree that he is one of the most inspiring and readable philosophers, but he is a hop, skip and jump away from the totalitarian. Handle with care.’

True, in fact if you look at the writings of many of the main protagonists of the Revolution, there is clear symmetry with concepts he espouses, particularly those of General Will. I don’t believe, however his intent, in tackling some of these complex issues, was that of creating an authoritarian state.

I agree that he is one of the most inspiring and readable philosophers, but he is a hop, skip and jump away from the totalitarian. Handle with care.

‘Saqib, since you quote Rousseau, I was just wondering whether you thought we ought to be forced to be free.’

Well…I would have to say, at a theological level, yes.

There is no doubt that French secularism (which Yasmin Alibi criticized, although oddly, she supported the French ban on religious symbols) is based on large part on this premise…an outgrowth of the Revolution.

I must say i have read a few of his works and found him to have been the most fascinating of all philosophes. The prelude to that comment you quote from the Social Contract was his statement, which if i remember went something like ‘man is born free but everywhere is in chains’…the aspect of being free referring to his absolute sense of liberty in the state of nature.

But at the Quilliam Foundation launch, where he also spoke, there was no mention of CC… only that he’d run off to fight the Soviets at one time. I didn’t realise it was the same Usama. I didn’t mean former-jihadi in a derisory way.

I doubt many people are aware that last week was the 93rd anniversary of the Armenian Genocide in which more than one million Armenians were killed in Turkey:
http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/25/armenia-april-24-genocide-memorial-day/

Much of Turkey’s remaining Armenian population have either been forcefully deported or migrated elsewhere. Unlike the Jewish Holocaust this genocide receives little media interest partly because the Armenian Diaspora is unable to attract the same kind of media attention and partly because Turkey is an ally of the West. The genocide may have happened in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire but even today Turkey’s minority communities (Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds) face systematic abuse of their human rights by the state.

The West likes to heap laurels on Turkey for being an example of how democracy can work in a Muslim country but it’s functioning is far from perfect. Democracy is supposed to ensure political participation and equal rights to all sections of society.