British Muslims 4 Secular Democracy launch
Shariq, Sid and I ended up at the BMSD launch today… where Inayat Bunglawala of the MCB, Yasmin Albhai-Brown, Ed Husain and Usama Hasan (former jihadi, now working with Quilliam Foundation and chair of City Circle – nice guy!) were speaking.
It was a bit of a boring discussion in front of a very expectant audience because basically everyone agreed that Islam was compatible with democracy and the best system for Muslims etc. Yada yada. But c’mon, hardly getting to the nub of the problem was it? Here are three immediate thoughts:
1) If Inayat Bunglawala considers secular democratic principles to be compatible with Islam and quite a good system – then why the need for a Khilafah (caliphate)? I’m not saying this to take a pot-shot at him, but merely asking why there is so much rhetoric around the need for Muslims to form a country governed by a religious authority? I asked him the question but he ducked it by saying people can decide themselves by voting if they want a religious state. But do they have the choice to go back if they don’t like living in a religious state? And when Asim Siddiqui writes about secular democracy on CIF, Inayat always challenges him by saying Muslims should always strive for a Khilafah. I think he’s still confused.
2) Democracy isn’t just about voting once every 5 years. It’s about freedom of choice and even local decision making. One of the many reasons why British Muslims (Sikhs, Hindus too, to a lesser extent though) don’t embrace democracy so readily is that they’re not empowered by democracy and choice within their own communities. Because of the biraderi (elders) system – people are told what to do. There is little sense of taking reponsibility for decisions (even for something like marriage!) hence the lack of a build up of that democractic knowledge. This is also why many young Muslims are attracted towards religion – to escape the oppression that comes with the culture. They see it as a form of self-empowerment when they have little other ways to express it.
3) The MCB (like its Sikh and Hindu counterparts) is profoundly undemocractic itself, so I don’t know how it can claim to like democracy. For a long time they claimed to represent the voice of Muslims without any democractic accountability. All these religious organisations are affiliated with orgs that are mostly run by middle-aged men, are out of touch with the youth and there are no ‘elections’ are such that are open. For them to talk about how great democracy is, is rather amusing.
Right, I’m now off to vote. If any of you haven’t voted for Sian Berry 1 and Ken Livingstone 2, then you’re gonna get a spanking by Sid. With a big whip. The Bengalis are notorious for that sort of thing.
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I voted at 8am but hey thanks for the reminder.What if we all forgot..
Sticking a number 4 in the acronym isn’t going to get rid of the dyslexic BMSD gags though – and everything important that needs to be said was probably gone through on the Quilliam Foundation launch comments last week.
As I’m sure most Picklers would agree there are far far better things to do with your time than deconstructing the thoughts of Inayat B and Mr ‘Ed’ H.
Like voting for example.
Sunny:
Crikey. So that’s what happens at these BMSD events.
Sunny – “Usama Hasan (former jihadi, now also working with Quilliam Foundation)”
Sunny this is why I said to your new additional to the editorial team – Sid that labels need to be aplied with care and got threatened with censure. By allowing Sid to do this – you are now picking this up as well.
Usama Hasan isn’t a former Jihadi. He is a part-time Imam at Mosque in London. He is well known for trying to do community outreach work. He follows a very dogmatic interpretation of Islam as does his father who was on Newsnight during the Archbishop of Canterbury Shariah row.
Usama Hasan is about as much of a Jihadi as you are! In the article I listed Usama Hasan complained about Sid’s creed and this labelling system they are pushing.
It isn’t helpful and it then leads to issues like this where an Imam who has been doing community outreach work (whci is why I know about him) for a long time now is then labelled a Jihadi because he follows a creed that Sufi’s dislike. They may say unpleasent things – one of the mosques from this creed was on Dispatches – but it doesn’t make them what you have labelled them as.
Interestingly Usama is an advocate of participation in the democratic process so he is unlikely to be a Jihadi who don’t believe in this at all.
Hence the dangers of labelling.
No doubt Sid will want you to censor what I say but youcan talk to Usama yourself and you’ll see I am correct. He just has a dogmatic view – not as dogmatic as the Salafi’s but dogmatic none the less in religion.
I hope that helps but the dangers of labelling are great and this is why with products tghe government is so strict!!
I also attended the the ‘debate’, which was a real drab affair. Quite a pointless event actually.
Sunny:
‘Democracy isn’t just about voting once every 5 years.’
Well Sunny, for a lot of people that’s exactly all that it is, actually this is what Rousseau said, that the English a free once every 4 years.
You said, “Democracy isn’t just about voting once every 5 years. It’s about freedom of choice and even local decision making…”
While this is true, one of cornerstones of democracy is about is the rights of minorities. (no matter what type of minority; race, gender, religion, class, etc) These minorities being equal under the law! Seems many Muslims have a problem w/ giving equality under law to non-Muslims, or even Muslim sects which are not their own and also to women.
This is the incompatibility of Islam and democracy in my view.
Avi Cohen:
No, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on this one, the appelation that Usama was a ‘jihadi’ refers to his ‘excursion’ to Afghanistan for the said purpose, and not about his general outlook.
Saquib – If that was during the Soviet Invasion then surely he qualifies as a Western Backed Freedom Fighter as they were all then.
The problem with all this labelling is that it is causing more and more problems and people who we can work with are being labelled.
Hence my unhappiness with what Sid is doing. But it appears I may be one of the only few as people seem to accept what he says and now I am getting accusations of things I don’t even say.
Saquib – You know what this labelling and counter labelling reminds me of is in the film The Hunt for Red October – as they hunt each other round one of the ships commanders warns that all this is going to cause tension and lead to fighting.
This labelling and counter labelling is doing just that stoking tghe tension and leading people away from what needs to be done and towards strife.
Thus it is my firm opinion that people that do this shouldn’t get away with it and should be allowed to do it.
It is just creating tension and leading people away from the core issue at hand.
Avi – perhaps Usama would be happy to be labelled as a “former jihadi” – its in vogue these days
Ed is labelled the same way – and far from going to Afghanistan – his freedom fighting was limited to leafleting in Newham council
Theres money to be made – or haven’t you realised yet?
Oh man, how boring and drab was that.
Three of the so called former jihadis couldn’t really give us anything on why it was necessary for Muslim states to become secular, but blew lots of pointless hot air theorising on why Muslims have always been “appreciative” of secularism.
I thought Yesmin Alibhai Brown was great. I agreed with her little talk.
Innayat was snidey and derisory. He made an altogether incorrect and stupid statement about Turkish secularism before signing off. The question and answer session was too short and ended just as it was getting interesting.
Oops, Studio 66 is me, Sid. It’s my favourite show on the telly, that’s why.
Sid:
Shame we never met!
Don’t worry Saqib, I’m sure our paths will cross one day.
In terms of the lecture, you didn’t miss much. The speakers looked more bored than the audience were.
My one question to the ex-Jihadis would have been this:
Are you willing to break the 1,000 year illusion, once and for all, that Sharia is a divine entity but is in actuality nothing more than a set of legal pronouncements made by men like any other. And in doing so, are you prepared to divest Sharia of it’s position in the Islamic liturgy and allow legislative law to become the paramount law making apparatus for Muslims?
If they’d Yes to that, I’d join. Unfortunately the chair didn’t even pick me to ask the question.
Sid:
‘Don’t worry Saqib, I’m sure our paths will cross one day’
Insha’Allah.
Sid:
‘Don’t worry Saqib, I’m sure our paths will cross one day’
Insha’Allah.
btw, i had a lengthy conversation and pleasant with Ed afterwards…i will give this a write up on my own blog later, however it was both interesting and pleasant.
He made an altogether incorrect and stupid statement about Turkish secularism before signing off.
I doubt many people are aware that last week was the 93rd anniversary of the Armenian Genocide in which more than one million Armenians were killed in Turkey:
http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/25/armenia-april-24-genocide-memorial-day/
Much of Turkey’s remaining Armenian population have either been forcefully deported or migrated elsewhere. Unlike the Jewish Holocaust this genocide receives little media interest partly because the Armenian Diaspora is unable to attract the same kind of media attention and partly because Turkey is an ally of the West. The genocide may have happened in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire but even today Turkey’s minority communities (Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds) face systematic abuse of their human rights by the state.
The West likes to heap laurels on Turkey for being an example of how democracy can work in a Muslim country but it’s functioning is far from perfect. Democracy is supposed to ensure political participation and equal rights to all sections of society.
Avi – you have the wrong end of the stick. I have respect for Usama Hasan and didn’t realise until much after he was also chairman of city circle.
But at the Quilliam Foundation launch, where he also spoke, there was no mention of CC… only that he’d run off to fight the Soviets at one time. I didn’t realise it was the same Usama. I didn’t mean former-jihadi in a derisory way.
Saqib, since you quote Rousseau, I was just wondering whether you thought we ought to be forced to be free.
El Cid:
‘Saqib, since you quote Rousseau, I was just wondering whether you thought we ought to be forced to be free.’
Well…I would have to say, at a theological level, yes.
There is no doubt that French secularism (which Yasmin Alibi criticized, although oddly, she supported the French ban on religious symbols) is based on large part on this premise…an outgrowth of the Revolution.
I must say i have read a few of his works and found him to have been the most fascinating of all philosophes. The prelude to that comment you quote from the Social Contract was his statement, which if i remember went something like ‘man is born free but everywhere is in chains’…the aspect of being free referring to his absolute sense of liberty in the state of nature.
If by prelude, you mean it appears in the book at an earlier stage, then I guess you are right, since that is the intro. However, I recall that the reference to “being forced to be free” related to how the community should deal with dissent.
I agree that he is one of the most inspiring and readable philosophers, but he is a hop, skip and jump away from the totalitarian. Handle with care.
El Cid:
‘I agree that he is one of the most inspiring and readable philosophers, but he is a hop, skip and jump away from the totalitarian. Handle with care.’
True, in fact if you look at the writings of many of the main protagonists of the Revolution, there is clear symmetry with concepts he espouses, particularly those of General Will. I don’t believe, however his intent, in tackling some of these complex issues, was that of creating an authoritarian state.
Hmm, one of the trustees of BMSD and darling of BMSD is one Dr Ghayasuddin Siddique, still leader of the ‘Muslim Parliament’, which hasn’t had elections and, unlike the MCB, does not tell us how they go about electing Dr Siddique year in, year out. Sunny, do tell us more.
How about this, Ghayasuddin going over to Iran to persuade Khomeni to issue a fatwa against Rushdie:
http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/bmms/1998/03March98.html#Rushdie review
According to an article in the (Asian Times, 10.03.98), it appears that the Iranian government has assured Mary Robinson, the present United Nations Human Rights Commissioner, that it will not attempt to carry out the death sentence on Salman Rushdie (see BMMS for January and February 1998). However, Mohammed Javed Zarif, the Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister who gave this assurance, also said that it was impossible to revoke the fatwa pronounced against Rushdie by the late Ayatollah Khomeini. Dr Robinson made her announcement at a press conference at the end of a two-day seminar on human rights which she was attending in Iran. Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament, maintained that the situation has not changed with this pronouncement. He said: “We supported the fatwa when it was first imposed and our position remains the same today. Rushdie has never repented for his actions” (Asian Times, 10.03.98)
“Hmm, one of the trustees of BMSD and darling of BMSD is one Dr Ghayasuddin Siddique, still leader of the ‘Muslim Parliament’, which hasn’t had elections and, unlike the MCB, does not tell us how they go about electing Dr Siddique year in, year out. Sunny, do tell us more.”
Easy! The MP doesn’t exist anymore! In 1998 it split into London and Manchester factions and then it was downhill all the way. I think Dr Ghayasuddin is the ONLY member!
There are the problems that the quran and haadith are suppposed to provide complete and absolute guidance for what muslims do on every occasion- that islam is a “way of life” and the drastic prescriptions for the treatment of others they contain. It’s possible to accept that it’s not immediately practical yo follow them, but the implication is that muslims ought to establish a society where that’s what happens as soon as they can. In the eyes of many muslims a muslim for secular democracy isn’t a muslim any more.
Roger,
We, by which I mean British society, have spent centuries tearing down a similar piece of nonsense. It is still unfinished work, but we are getting there. ‘Cause the Bible tells me so used to be respectable, after all. There are, unfortunately, still Christians in high office of State, still willing to be guided by their idea of God. However, they are a decreasing minority, and misrepresentative of UK society, generally.
At least those that wear it on their sleeve.
Muslims that wish to establish a caliphate here should be, quite simply, ridiculed. Silly twits. Farting against thunder.
I’d have thought that actually most Muslims in this country do believe in a secular democracy, and do still see themselves as Muslims. I’d be astonished if it were otherwise….
I agree with comments above that describing Dr Usama Hasan as an “ex-Jihadi” is misleading and does no justice to the breadth of constructive work that he does. Here is his recent bio on the City Circle website when he was appointed as its director:
http://www.thecitycircle.com/blog2.php?cann_id=471
@Aqil – at the Quilliam Foundation launch Usama slipped in the fact that he’d gone to Afghanistan to train with the mujahideen so he could fight the enemy. I didn’t stay for the BDSM launch but I did get Yasmin beforehand
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/02/islam.religion
BDSM is an abbreviation of bondage, discipline, submission, sadism and masochism
“BDSM is an abbreviation of bondage, discipline, submission, sadism and masochism”
Sounds just like religion.
Douglas Clark: I’d agree that most muslims in the UK both see themselves as muslims and favour secular democracy. They haven’t thought through the logic of their situation though. Either the quran is the literal word of god and it’s a set of orders to be obeyed absolutely or it isn’t. If people reject one part then the whole thing unravels. Christianity and judaism have the advantage that they are supposedly concerned with the word of god as interpreted by men and have a lot more leeway than islam. The caliphate-or-bust brigade have very good reason to dislik and fear things like this.
actually, roger, judaism has a lot more in common with islam as far as the legal paradigm is concerned. however, our legal frameworks have been developing for a lot longer, approximately 800 years. the shari’ah hasn’t really reached the stage of codification yet which is why if you ask me that there are so many differing interpretations about what is important and what is Divine and what isn’t and how binding any of it is.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Sunny – I accept that you didn’t realise who he was but this is why I am saying that care needs to be taken when people are labelled because extremist tend to jump around and thus those people that are sincere and want to do something about extremism may get labelled and instead of fighting against extremism end up having to defend themselves which means that society is shooting itself in the foot by losing time in the fight against extremism.
Again my concern is the focus is being taken of the fight against extremism as people fight labels.
Christianity and judaism have the advantage that they are supposedly concerned with the word of god as interpreted by men and have a lot more leeway than islam.
I agree with that. I’m Christian and I can say without a doubt that most of us are hypocrites.
You deserve a pat on your back for asking Inayat the question. I guess there will never be a time when the likes of MCB will come out clean with their ideas about how Muslims should be governed. Since their ideological aspirations are the same as Maulana Maududi’s Jamat-e-Islami, any form of government where absolute power is not controlled by mad male Mullahs will never be acceptable.
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown brought up the topic of MCB’s booklet (list of demands) that they sent round to schools asking for Muslims pupils to be excused for everything that brings them closer to non-Muslim pupils. That sort of exposed them I guess.
BMSD is different from the other Muslim organisations and even that of Sikhs, Hindus etc, since its run mainly by women and some men. Now there’s a major change isn’t it?
Hopefully now articulate, bright Muslims will not have any excuse that there is no one to provide them with a platform to resonate their ideas and views. There is BMSD to do just that.
“Yasmin Alibhai-Brown brought up the topic of MCB’s booklet (list of demands) that they sent round to schools asking for Muslims pupils to be excused for everything that brings them closer to non-Muslim pupils. That sort of exposed them I guess.”
I would say that it would actually be a list of requests. This is a democracy – you can ask for anything you want. Doesn’t mean you’ll get it though!
Anything with the word Muslims will elicit a vigorous response. Everything else will get like 4-9 comments : )