Livingstone lied about anti-semitic cartoon


by Rumbold
25th April, 2008 at 4:01 pm    

Ken Livingstone was editor of the Labour Herald in 1982 when it published an anti-semitic cartoon, comparing Israel to Hitler. As Livingstone supporters have quoted liberally from the Spectator under Boris Johnson’s editorship, this might be seen as simply a tit-for-tat response. However, as Dizzy points out, the key point is that Livingstone claimed on Tuesday that the cartoon was a response to the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, when in fact those massacres took place months after the publication of the cartoon.

I doubt that Livingstone cares about stories like this. His supporters usually brush off any criticism of his behaviour regarding Jews, claiming either that he is naïve (ignoring the fact that he is one of the shrewdest politicians in the country with strong ideological convictions), or that he is critical of Israel, but not Jews (a line he frequently crosses). I suspect he will win the mayoral election, as anti-semitic outbursts do not really cost him any votes.


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  1. marvin — on 25th April, 2008 at 4:13 pm  

    Good post.

    “anti-semitic outbursts do not really cost him any votes.”

    This very true. He calculates that he needs to get the Muslim and the Black vote. As if they are one contiguous bloc. That’s several million votes in his mind. “Operation Black Vote”.

    It really does seem he actually specifically categorises the voting blocs. Of course anti-semitism will cost him few votes, there’s only 300,000 Jews left in the whole country.

    And a perception of anti-semitism or anti-israel sentiment will actually result favourably with many on the far-left and within the reactionary quarters in the Muslim community.

    I wonder if that Evening Standard reporter has been black. Would he have said “You’re like an African slave trader aren’t you? Your doing cos you get paid for it”. Of course he wouldn’t. But about Jews? Pah! Perhaps they shouldn’t be so supportive of Israel eh.

  2. Rumbold — on 25th April, 2008 at 4:19 pm  

    Thanks Marvin. The majority of Muslims or black people are not anti-semitic, but there is a nasty strain of anti-semitism running throughout our society, from Christian to Muslim, black to white, left to right. Livingstone has tapped into this.

  3. Sid — on 25th April, 2008 at 4:23 pm  

    Would you agree that Boris has tapped in on a nasty strain of anti-black racism running throughout our society, from Christian to Muslim, left to right?

  4. Andrew — on 25th April, 2008 at 4:38 pm  

    Without wanting to make too many excuses for Livingstone or that foul cartoon, or getting into an argument about the middle east, a quick glance at the Wikipedia entry on the 1982 Lebabon war reveals that in very early June 1982 the Israeli airforce bombed refugee camps and other targets in Lebanon, killing several hundred people including many civilians. I think it’s more likely that Livingstone misremembers the particular event which provoked the cartoon than that he is “lying”.

  5. Rumbold — on 25th April, 2008 at 4:49 pm  

    Sid:

    I am not happy with Boris Johnson either as a candidate. I do not think that he is up to the job (but he would still be better than Livingstone). Both are having their past words come back to haunt them. The difference is that Johnson does not continue to endorse what he said in the past.

    Andrew:

    “I think it’s more likely that Livingstone misremembers the particular event which provoked the cartoon than that he is “lying”.”

    Hmmm. That is not beoynd the realms of possibilty, and I look forward to Livingstone correcting his recent assertion shortly.

  6. Leon — on 25th April, 2008 at 6:29 pm  

    as Dizzy points out

    Oh dear, never a good sign when those words are put together…

    As for the rest of this piece, it’s verging on smear if you ask me.

    One thing though:

    (a line he frequently crosses)

    You want to explain that and provide some links?

  7. Rumbold — on 25th April, 2008 at 6:39 pm  

    Leon:

    Apart from the cartoon above, there was the time he:

    Compared a Jew to a concentration camp guard:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/feb/24/pressandpublishing.greaterlondonauthority

    Told Jews to try their luck in Iran if they did not like it here:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395651745&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Said that Israel should never have been created, then makes up a quote from a rabbi to support his view:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1204213983825&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    As well as the anti-semites he associates with:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1864

    See a pattern emerging beyond legitimate criticism?

  8. marvin — on 25th April, 2008 at 6:49 pm  

    How is this a smear?

    1. He lied.
    2. He was editor, he published a very offensive, anti-semitic cartoon.

    As Rumbold points out, Ken supporters have no qualms about smearing Boris for his editorial control of Spectator. But when Ken does it, it’s a ‘smear’, it’s different, he didn’t really mean it.

    Anti-semitism – and a timely question for Ken

    Love is blind, so Ken supporters should read this;

    At the height of his celebrity for Left-wing incendiarism, Ken Livingstone sounded an alarm that echoed around the world. There were in our city, he warned, “paramilitary groups which resemble fascist organisations”. It was 1984, a date laden with portent. The IRA was active, as were Hitler-worshipping elements of the National Front. What had Ken discovered?

    Nothing more terrifying, it seemed, than the Board of Deputies of British Jews. It was they who were putting together the “paramilitaries”, Ken said. In a tirade against the deputies made in an interview with an Israeli newspaper, he claimed the board had been taken over by the extreme Right wing and, he alleged, the venerable institution was being run by reactionaries and near-fascists.

    As troubled Londoners scanned the streets in vain for cohorts of fascistic Jewish paramilitaries, Ken – not for the first time – began to look rather silly. And the total lack of evidence, then or now, to support his warning invited a question: why did he launch into such a bizarre outburst?

    Many Jews in London think they know. Ken, they say, hates us.

  9. Cover Drive — on 25th April, 2008 at 6:55 pm  

    There seems to be some double standards here. Muslims are criticised for taking offence about a cartoon of Mohammed but when someone makes a cartoon about Israel (not even Jews) it is racism!

    but there is a nasty strain of anti-semitism running throughout our society, from Christian to Muslim, black to white, left to right. Livingstone has tapped into this.

    If you don’t agree with everything the Israeli government does does that make you an anti-semite? Maybe some of the more hawkish Jews would say so but even Israelis would disagree.

    As for comparisons with Hitler, well there have been some people including Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter who have accused Israel of having a system of apartheid. A lot of Israelis would disagree but Israel does segregate Jews and Arabs and controls movement via military checkpoints. Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights groups have documented hundreds of cases of abuse by Israeli troops against Palestinians at roadblocks: beatings, shootings, harassment, humiliation and life-threatening delays.

    Evicted from their homes and fleeing their homeland since the creation of Israel the Palestinians took refuge in neighbouring countries such as Lebanon, Jordan and Egpyt. They faced fierce resistance from Lebanese Christian Phalangist militiamen who refused to share their country with them. The Israelis backed the Phalange and a bitter war broke out that lasted over a decade. The Sabra and Shatila massacres were the most gruesome incidents during that conflict in which hundreds were killed.

    Whether the cartoon was published before or after those events is somewhat irrelevant. Fighting was already in full swing in Lebanon and Palestinian refugees were suffering the most casulties. Obviously Ken as well as many other people were distressed. Its easy accuse someone now of anti-semiticism decades after the actual events but you’re taking this cartoon out of context. Many people including 300,000 Israelis demonstrated to protest the killings which happened on Israeli ocupied land with the knowledge of Israeli forces.

  10. Amrit — on 25th April, 2008 at 6:58 pm  

    I think Cover Drive has a point, but I do also think there is a certain fashionableness (is that a word?) about anti-Semitism – it’s rather unsettling.

  11. Leon — on 25th April, 2008 at 7:13 pm  

    Excellent post Cover Drive.

    Amrit, I’m not sure I agree, I thinks there’s a fashionable trend amongst idiot right wingers to throw that about about the left.

    It’s a good way of shifting the debate away from Israel’s actions onto the emotive grounds of how Jewish people are treated.

  12. ZinZin — on 25th April, 2008 at 7:54 pm  

    Only five days to go until the smear-fest is over.

    Leon this is verging on smear, the Finegold incident is a load of nonsense, only the Ruebens remarks can be considered racist.

    Rumbold do you have the original quote from Ken regarding the state of Israel, as that link fails to back up your claim.

  13. Katy Newton — on 25th April, 2008 at 10:07 pm  

    Are the Motoons now not considered racist then? I always thought they were. I thought the point was that people are entitled to offend and also to be offended. The same goes for the cartoon that Livingstone published. I found it offensive but I accept that he was entitled to publish it.

    I don’t plan to vote for him or for Johnson, although I was originally quite pro-Johnson. I’m not now, though. If I was black or Asian I’d have zero confidence in him, to be honest, and I share bananabrain’s view of Livingstone.

    You know what I’d like? I’d like the next Mayor to be someone who hasn’t pissed anyone off. Crazy, right? But true. If I vote for anyone it’ll be Brian Paddick, and believe me when I say that no one is more surprised by that than me. I have never thought much of him but I have been genuinely impressed with the way he’s run his campaign.

  14. Marvin — on 26th April, 2008 at 12:36 am  

    Of course Katy, freedom of speech, and all that. The point is how would muslims feel if The Spectator had published the mo cartoons with boris as editor?

  15. Marvin — on 26th April, 2008 at 12:43 am  

    So mocking of religions is racist? So as an atheist, if i say i hate religions, then i am simulataneouly an islamophobe, antisemetic, and err christianophobic?

  16. Refresh — on 26th April, 2008 at 1:52 am  

    Marvin

    Go ahead and smear Livingstone BUT why drag muslims into this?

    Katy, the term motoons was for adolescents. We are all growed up now.

  17. Rumbold — on 26th April, 2008 at 11:09 am  

    Cover Drive:

    “There seems to be some double standards here. Muslims are criticised for taking offence about a cartoon of Mohammed but when someone makes a cartoon about Israel (not even Jews) it is racism!”

    I don’t think that anyone claimed that the Muhammed cartoons were not anti-Muslim. I would have supported Livingstone’s right to publish this cartoon, just as I retain the right to criticise him.

    “If you don’t agree with everything the Israeli government does does that make you an anti-semite?”

    No of course not. Israel deserves plenty of criticism for its actions and for its human rights violations. Thankfully there is a difference between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism. What you have to ask yourself though is why people like Livingstone go out of their way to attack Israel but keep silent about other human rights abuses, and why is the language some of them use so extreme? Israel is the only country in the world that has to defend its right to exist as a state.

    Leon:

    “Amrit, I’m not sure I agree, I thinks there’s a fashionable trend amongst idiot right wingers to throw that about about the left.

    It’s a good way of shifting the debate away from Israel’s actions onto the emotive grounds of how Jewish people are treated.”

    I know that it is considered a heresy amongst his followers to criticise Livingstone (as previous posts have amply demonstrated), but it is not a sin to admit that your favoured candidate is not perfect. For my part I think that Boris Johnson has a number of flaws, namely a lack of experience at managing large projects.

    ZinZin:

    That was the best link I could find on short notice.

  18. thabet — on 26th April, 2008 at 5:42 pm  

    This post is utter bullshit, Rumbold.

  19. marvin — on 26th April, 2008 at 6:00 pm  

    nuanced argument there ‘thabet’

    Just the kind of tactics used by Ken. Rubbishing things outright, without any remorse or acknowledgement that offence has been caused or that he is ever in the wrong.

    The only thing Ken has ever publicly apologised for is the slave trade. And as far as I know he didn’t have much to do with that anyway.

    Refresh, Katy started it, not me!

    Nobody seems to have answered my point on 14.

    Ken has been repeatedly offensive towards Israelis and Jews.

    And the equating of the motoons with this is facical.

    One was mocking a religious belief systen, and thus invoking the wrath of Islamic fundamentalists and those who seriously opposed to what free speech means(get over it) the other is invoking the horror of an attempt to eliminate a race altogether by gassing them on industrial proportions. If you was an elderly Jew, how would feel about Ken equating your homeland with Nazi Germany? Especially when clearly this comparison is ludicrous.

    And the fact is Boris HAS NOT published the motoons. Ken HAS published this sick cartoon. I am not saying that Ken shouldn’t be allowed to do this. He should be allowed of course, but this man is going to be an ambassador for London around the country and around the world.

    Yet he doesn’t ever acknowledge this! How arrogant can you get?

  20. cjcjc — on 26th April, 2008 at 6:20 pm  

    What a delightful cartoon.
    Of course the point is not the nature of the cartoon itself, but the fact that Livingstone lied about the circumstances surrounding its publication.

    More Livingstone lies?
    I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!

    ZinZin – here’s how Ken, when pushed into a corner, lied about what the former Chief Rabbi had said

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1204213983825&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    “Only the Reubens remarks can be considered racist”.

    Well, that’s OK then.

    Isolated, not part of any pattern, nothing to see here…

  21. cjcjc — on 26th April, 2008 at 6:28 pm  

    Meanwhile here’s an amusing video of two of Ken’s minders manhandling a small girl.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktDCYEtvt08

  22. ZinZin — on 27th April, 2008 at 1:12 pm  

    cjjc- don’t dodge the issue; Rumbold made a claim which he has yet to substantiate.

  23. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 1:53 pm  

    Now this is what I always find so disturbingly ironic: if as has been pointed out there have been a number of recent stories or articles that betray some kind of anti-Semitic trend within British society, then the coverage of Palestine must reveal attitudes towards Palestinians and Muslims, and in fact anyone who dares to stand in the way of Western colonial expansion, which hearken back to the days of Victorian race theories, for example, about the aborigines, in which these godforsaken groups are felt to be worse than animals.

    I mean, take the story today “UN forced to halt Gaza food aid to a million”. Surely there should be a massive outcry that a country who we count as not only an extremely close ally, but with whom we have incredibly close and substantial diplomatic, commercial, and military ties — who we consider part of the West as it were — is to put it bluntly subjecting a population of over one million people to a savage and barbaric form of collective punishment, starving them to submission. And indeed President Carter has gone on record is calling the blockade an atrocity. But no, because its Israel, and the Palestinians are subhuman scum, no one gives a shit.

    Then of course there is Boris’s own robust record of support for Israel’s brutal 40 year occupation of the occupied territories — whose toll has included the deaths of thousands of civilians and the almost complete destruction of Palestinian civil society — and of its status as an apartheid state. And this has included raising funds of £15,000 for the JNF whose sole purpose it is to make sure it can prevent as much of Israel’s land as it can from being bought by non-Jews, i.e. maintaining its racially pure status, and defending Israel’s massacres of civilians in the Lebanese war. (More about Boris’ relation to Israel here) But that doesn’t matter in the scheme of things — in fact doesn’t even really register — in comparison to Ken Livingstone and his obscene comments against Jews and Israelis, because obviously the Arabs are two legged beasts, right Rumbold? Or have I just pre-empted your next article?

  24. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:01 pm  

    Israel is the only country in the world that has to defend its right to exist as a state.

    what about, off the top of my head, Kosovo? Tibet? Scotland?

  25. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:13 pm  

    It’s also rather amusing that someone like Ahmadinejad can be compared to Hitler quite freely (any Arab leader is free game), but make that comparison with the leader of the country who was part of a campaign to remove the Palestinian presence in Lebanon (on what was a comical pretext at the time), i.e., the ethnic cleansing of thousands of people, with a heavy focus on bombing civilian targets — even before Sabra and Shatila (Chomsky in Fateful Triangle gives a detailed description of Israel’s tactics in the 82 Lebanon conflict) — and a couple of decades later you’re a prominent anti-Semite.

  26. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:41 pm  

    “Israel is the only country in the world that has to defend its right to exist as a state.”

    Bunch of baloney, misinformation,and propaganda. I’ve mentioned elsewhere how powerful the Israeli military is (thanks to my tax money, mind you), furthermore, most nations would be happy with Israel if the Palestinians are treated fairly, get the full right of return, and are not militarily occupied.

    This canard about Israel being the victim and therefore needing to continuously re-assert its military prowess (but in reality colonizing the land of indigenous inhabitants, ethnically cleansing an area, and marry the state with religion where one religious community gets all the benefits) is a weapon to occlude any realistic analysis of what’s going on in I/P, and to preclude any fair reading of what’s happening.

  27. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:46 pm  

    “Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the creation of which butchered millions and forced further millions into exile, refugee camps and starvation with still no hope of return.”

    Total rubbish. It was the creation of both India AND Pakistan that uprooted millions and created refugees, and organized thugs supported by middle class politicians from the Congress Party and Muslim League who terrorized populations and created militias to scare Muslims out of the future India and Hindus and Sikhs out of the future Pakistan.

    And Gabriel, get your fucking facts straight– the partition of the Indian subcontinent had more to do with the Indian Congress Party and power tussles between leading politicians from the Muslim League and Congress than it did with hard-core Islamists who wished to see the creation of a Muslim homeland.

    Interestingly, why do you mention the refugees who do not have any hope of coming back to Pakistan but you don’t mention those refugees in Pakistan who have no hope of ever returning to their ancestral homeland? They are there.

    PS. There were subcontinental Muslims who were vehemently against the creation of Pakistan and for a united India.

  28. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:46 pm  

    “You are an American, currently residing in Nepal, who is ashamed of her subcontinental roots, masquerades as an Italian and is obsessed with praising Islam.”

    Yeah, yeah yeah.

  29. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:49 pm  

    Gabriel,

    “Again, I refer you to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, who’s actions you have described in the italics.”

    Gabriel, judging from your comments, I don’t think you even know all that much about the subcontinent’s partition.

    I am obsessed with Israel because even though I make very little, I still have to pay federal taxes, and those taxes go on to give Israel $3 billion annually– not counting all of the other freebie perks.

  30. Gabriel — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:49 pm  

    created militias to scare Muslims out of the future India and Hindus and Sikhs out of the future Pakistan

    Your argument would make sense if there weren’t more Muslims living in India than in Pakistan. There are. So your argument is defunct. How many non-Muslims living in Pakistan?

    The words ‘ethnic cleansing’ come to my mind. How about yours?

    Interestingly, why do you mention the refugees who do not have any hope of coming back to Pakistan but you don’t mention those refugees in Pakistan who have no hope of ever returning to their ancestral homeland?

    Like I said, there are more Muzzies in India than in Pakistan. You have no argument.

  31. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:50 pm  

    Gabriel:

    “Stick to what you know: nothing.”

    Then maybe you shouldn’t comment anymore on Pakistan and partition.

  32. Gabriel — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:52 pm  

    I am obsessed with Israel because even though I make very little, I still have to pay federal taxes, and those taxes go on to give Israel $3 billion annually– not counting all of the other freebie perks.

    Why don’t you get worked up about aid to Pakistan, Egypt, Kosovo, Albania and a whole host of other countries who collectively take up many billions of dollars more?

  33. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:53 pm  

    ““You are an American, currently residing in Nepal, who is ashamed of her subcontinental roots”

    Yeah, that’s why part of my handle name is “Desi”.

    So instead of vitriolic frothing at the mouth and retarded personal attacks, how about actually saying something coherent?

  34. Gabriel — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:55 pm  

    Still, you haven’t answered the quandary:

    Why is there a 0.1% non-Muslim population in Pakistan?

    And why are Muslims verging on the 300 million mark in India?

    Are you denying that Pakistan partook in the wholesale slaughter of non-Muslims?

    That’s quite disturbing, as well as highlighting your ability to praise Muslims no matter what their crimes against humanity.

  35. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:55 pm  

    “Why don’t you get worked up about aid to Pakistan, Egypt, Kosovo, Albania and a whole host of other countries who collectively take up many billions of dollars more?”

    Because I was responding to a comment on Israel specifically, and hence, mentioning Israel and not Kosovo.

    BTW, Egypt and Israel are the biggest recipients of US foreign “aid”, not Kosovo and Albania. And a “whole host of other countries” who take up many billions of dollars in aid would be….who?

  36. Desi Italiana — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:58 pm  

    “Still, you haven’t answered the quandary:”

    This isn’t a quandry.

    “Are you denying that Pakistan partook in the wholesale slaughter of non-Muslims?”

    I see that reading comprehension is not exactly a strength of yours. What did I write in my earlier comment?

    “Congress Party and Muslim League who terrorized populations and created militias to scare Muslims out of the future India and HINDU SIKHS OUT OF THE FUTURE PAKISTAN.”

    Not responding to nitwit comments which seek to flamebait. Write comments to yourself and have fun!

  37. Gabriel — on 27th April, 2008 at 2:59 pm  

    And a “whole host of other countries” who take up many billions of dollars in aid would be….who?

    Pakistan to name but one.

    But this is all getting off track.

    This is all about having a pop at the Jews, whoops I meant Israel.

    Do continue, may Allah be please with you.

  38. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 3:03 pm  

    Still, you haven’t answered the quandary:

    Why is there a 0.1% non-Muslim population in Pakistan?

    I think you mean “falsehood” rather than “quandary” here (I think the figure is closer to 3%). And I don’t mention the issue of Pakistan because the vast majority of the world would agree that that country is not involved in the ongoing occupation of another country. Livingstone’s support of Pakistan, clearly does not involve championing a brutal 40 year old ongoing occupation, whereas Bojo’s uncritical support for Israel, and his explicit support for its aparthied policies is of a different order.

  39. Rumbold — on 27th April, 2008 at 3:58 pm  

    Anas:

    “But that doesn’t matter in the scheme of things — in fact doesn’t even really register — in comparison to Ken Livingstone and his obscene comments against Jews and Israelis, because obviously the Arabs are two legged beasts, right Rumbold? Or have I just pre-empted your next article?”

    Many of us do not see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and think that we have to choose one side or the other. Are the Israelis wrong to cut off food aid to Gaza? Yes. Should Britain protest? Yes. Should the Gazans stamp out rocket attacks on Israel? Yes.

    Why does Hamas keep attacking fuel terminals?

    “What about, off the top of my head, Kosovo? Tibet? Scotland?”

    Kosovo has just come into being, while Israel has existed (in its modern form) for decades. Tibet isn’t a state, as it was annexed by China decades ago. As for Scotland, I cannot recall UN votes and committees denouncing it.

  40. john — on 27th April, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

    Israel does not seperate Jews from Arabs: it seperates suicide/homicide bombers from innocent potential victims. In Israel itself, Jews and Arabs live in mixed towns, cities and villages. Any seperation that does exist is probably no greater than that found in Lebanon. Or does every Muslim, Christian, Druze and Kurd live there cheek-by-jowl on his or her neighbours doorstepand in his or her backyard.

  41. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 4:33 pm  

    Many of us do not see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and think that we have to choose one side or the other. Are the Israelis wrong to cut off food aid to Gaza? Yes. Should Britain protest? Yes. Should the Gazans stamp out rocket attacks on Israel? Yes.

    My point is that you have taken a side in your presentation of Livingstone’s faux pas — whether you realise it or not. It’s clear from your article and other comments that you have a heavy pro-Israel bias, otherwise why not mention BoJo’s equally relevant pro-Zionist affiliations? And there is little equality here between Israel’s collective punishing of the Gazans and the rocket attacks. Assuming both sides have similar responsibilities, playing down the grotesque asymmetry of the situation is effectively partaking in a heavily pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian narrative.

    Kosovo has just come into being, while Israel has existed (in its modern form) for decades. Tibet isn’t a state, as it was annexed by China decades ago. As for Scotland, I cannot recall UN votes and committees denouncing it.

    I’m sorry but all of those areas have had and have struggles on the part of a large percentage of their populations to gain status as states. Your objections are completely beside the point.

  42. Anas — on 27th April, 2008 at 4:35 pm  

    Israel does not seperate Jews from Arabs: it seperates suicide/homicide bombers from innocent potential victims. In Israel itself, Jews and Arabs live in mixed towns, cities and villages. Any seperation that does exist is probably no greater than that found in Lebanon.

    No Jews and non-Jews have a separate status under Israeli law within Israel (let’s not even discuss the occupied territories), which is what makes it aparthied. Like, e.g., with the JNF preventing non-Jews from buying most of the land in Israel.

  43. Nav — on 27th April, 2008 at 6:03 pm  

    Are you denying that Pakistan partook in the wholesale slaughter of non-Muslims?

    As well as the culling of other Muslims with regards to the Bangladesh issue but that’s besides the point… I just thought I’d point that out…

    Not counting their subjugation of ethnic Balochis…

    And ongoing support of Jihadist, racist murderers like Lashkar-e-Toiba…

    I could go on but I won’t.

  44. Sunny — on 27th April, 2008 at 8:19 pm  

    Heh, the original point of this thread seems to have been lost.

    And I’m buying this piece of crap from Dizzy like I’m going to buy a hole in the head.

    If we’re going to take historical context out then I’m assuming the entire Tory establishment, especially Margaret Thatcher, should be condemned as vile racists for supporting Apartheid and condemning Nelson Mandela?

    And given that Boris Johnson supported the Mo-toons and Thatcher, one can only assume he’s pro-apartheid too?

    C’mon Dizzy, I’m waiting for that post!

  45. Sunny — on 27th April, 2008 at 8:19 pm  

    I’m closing this thread anyway, Muzumdar has come back as Gabriel and hijacked it.

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