The Palestinians are not as nice as the Tibetans in the eyes of the world. But the Palestinian people deserve exactly the same rights as the occupied Tibetan people, even if their leaders are less enchanting, they have no scarlet robes and their fight is more violent. There is absolutely no connection between rights and the means of protest, and from that perspective, there is no difference between a Tibetan and a Palestinian – they both deserve the exact same freedom.

Moreover, in the first years of the Israeli occupation, most Palestinians accepted it submissively, with practically no violence. What did they get as a result? Nothing. The world and Israel cloaked themselves in apathy and callousness. Only when planes started being hijacked in the 1970s did the world begin to notice that a Palestinian problem even existed. In contrast, the Tibetan struggle also was tainted with violence in the past, and it is reasonable to assume that violence will increase if the Tibetans do not attain their goal.

There is also no point in asking which occupation is crueler, the Chinese or the Israeli. The competition is harsh and bitter. The Chinese killed and imprisoned more Tibetans, in Lhasa there is less freedom of expression than in Nablus, but in general, the extent of Israeli repression in the territories is much greater today than Chinese repression in Tibet.

Nowhere in the world today is there a region more besieged and confined than Gaza. And what is the result? The world calls to boycott the occupier in the case of China, while absurdly, with regard to the Palestinians, the world is boycotting the occupied entity, or at least its elected leadership, and not the occupier. This, it seems, has no parallel in history.

But to reiterate, a) there might be more coverage of IP but it’s the type of coverage I’m taking about (where Israel is constantly framed as a victim or as retaliating for Palestinian actions), b) the type of coverage I’m alluding to wasn’t that different in pre-Hamas days, c) Tibetans have been attacking ethnic Han Chinese during riots which hasn’t affected worldwide sympathy, d)the tactics used by Hamas (or any other groups) are in general a reaction to the brutality of Israel’s 40 year occupation (like the anti-Chinese attacks in Tibet) so it’s weird that that should be the rationale for the lack of sympathy, e) Hamas’ actions don’t explain why Israel’s actions attacking women and children, and the population as a whole collectively garner so little attention in the West, especially, and I will emphasise this, given the important role that we play.

Heh.

clearly, scotland is in the grip of a right-wing zionist cabal.

No, it’s actually run by the SNP at the moment, which is even less likely, and funnier.

Palestinians attack Israelis but they get attention and no sympathy.

Tibetan monks attack Han Chinese businesses/colonists and they get attention and sympathy.

This is the point Anas has been trying to make. Its not the coverage its the media reaction.

A small difference, no?

You also say: But on the other hand, isn’t this outweighed by the fact that we are in the West more responsible for the situation in Palestine than in Tibet;

Tibet has gotten attention now, but actually it doesn’t get even near the amount of attention that Palestinians do.

BTW I have never ever believed in zionist conspiracy theories, nor have I posted anything on PP that suggests otherwise and I resent your claiming that.

b’shalom

bananabrain

I said nothing about Jews, or Israelis in general. Indeed my first post in this thread, and on which I based my argument, was a link to an article by a prominent Israeli peace activist, who voices his support for Tibetans, and which I picked up via an anti-zionist Jewish blog.

Your point seems to be that because Israel’s countless brutal human rights violations aren’t *exactly* the same as China’s (in terms of forced sterilizations, banning Arabic, etc), there’s no reason to compare the two. But I would disagree, I think you can compare levels of brutality. In fact if you want to talk about the dehumanising treatment of a people, you only need recall the Gazan starvation siege, and the cold blooded murder of Palestinian figures (very likely including Yasser Arafat), the bulldozing of people’s houses, in fact the whole attempt to destroy Palestinian civil society through impoverishment and fear — including ethnic cleansing via settlement building. I’m sure I don’t need to remind you to (re)read the Amnesty, HRW, BT’Selem reports on Israel’s human rights record, which as a supporter of Israel you probably have a good reading knowledge of.

In 2003 Bush declared combat operations over in Iraq – but the 5 year “peace” has been a catastophy for America, but Americans have the option of going home and electing a new government.

In 1967 when the rams horn was blown after the capture of the wall, Jerusalem might have been unified and combat operation over, but the 40 year occupation has been a catastrophy for Israel. I know Israelis don’t have the option of going anywhere but they have the option of electing their government, and as their government continues to do as the Israelis ask, then they obvioulsy think that the risks of ‘occupation’ are worth it. Demonizing the people that one occupies might be good for moral and PR, but in the long run it perhaps just turns them into demons.

…. but

if israelis and jews like myself want to support the tibetans then we should be able to do so without people criticising my other opinions and actions.

yes I agree.

Anyway – back to Tibet – who actually carried this damn torch ?

- Is Konnie Huq still on Bluepeter?
- I saw Steve Cram – what cereal does he advertize?
- I have a beard so any sportsmen advertizing 10 bladed razors is of no consequence to me.
- anyone else to watch out for?

justforfun

b’shalom

bananabrain

Yes, the Guardian and the Independent do have more balanced coverage — sometimes, Jews Sans Frontieres have had a few interesting posts about the Guardian’s coverage recently which are worth reading — in comparison to most of the MSM.

But I disagree about the BBC’s coverage not being skewed heavily in favour of Israel. And no, I don’t think enough is made of the fact of the occupation, especially not as an explanation for some of the (often wrongheaded) actions of Palestinians in retaliation for the brutal occupation. I mean, if there was, wouldn’t the hypocrisy of those who criticise China’s actions in Tibet but who give Israel a free reign in matters of security draw more attention?

clearly, scotland is in the grip of a right-wing zionist cabal.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Seriously – you have to understand hypocisy is not a crime – its a virtue from God , otherwise we would never be able to function as human beings or argue our cases. Glad to see you sympathize with India’s position on Kashmir – but not sure where you got the idea from that Tibet would be a good way to invade China – have you been to the Himalayas – they are very big and very cold and very high. As is the Tibetian plateau. Most people in history bent on invasion went around the longer route over the slightly lower Hindu Kush.

But yes – in your general thrust – I agree we do have a greater responsibility/ability here in the West to help resolve the IP issue compared to Tibet, – but you might have noticed the Dalai Lama does speak English with an Indian accent while the Hamas spokesman does not ! .

The IP issue has been turned from a national struggle into a religious war and if history teaches anything relgious wars, don’t end in negotiated settlements. Depressing but there you go.

justforfun

Attention is almost never drawn to the bare fact that Israel is occupying Palestine, and the legtimacy of Israel’s presence in the West Bank, or Gaza is never questioned.

when you do it about once every 20 seconds and it is done constantly by what seems like every lefty in the world? how on earth can you possibly still think that this point of view is *under-represented*?

b’shalom

bananabrain

One is that no-one would regard the very existence of China as threatened- realistically or rhetorically- by Tibetan and other ethnic minorities. Compare the demands of the Dalai Lama with those of HAMAS The very level of control of the media is revealing about the two societies and the way they function.

China has, IMHO, a strong argument that Tibet acts as a buffer-zone to its south, and that it would be left strategically vulnerable if it were to become independent — so that as a superpower China would have a lot to lose, especially with a Nuclear power on its Southern Border. Equally if Tibet were to gain independence or even autonomy then that would encourage other regions to agitate for seccession — which would be extremely damaging to China’s integrity as a nation. None of which justifies China’s human rights abuses, just as none of the usual Israeli arguments justify Israel’s human rights abuses.

As for comparing the Dalai Lama’s demands with those of Hamas, a few points have to be kept in mind. For a start Israel has pursued a rejectionist policy for the past four decades, which has entailed rejecting out of hand the broad consensus of the international community and the dictates of international law with regard to their occupation — the utter hopelessness of the Palestinians situation was the chief reason why Hamas came to power in the first place, and the moderate voices of Palestinian resistance have seemed to be drowned out. Even the Arab League (including Iran) has repeatedly called for full normalisations of and recognition of Israel in exchange for a return back to pre-67 borders — Israel refused to take this up, fearing what might be lost (i.e., land) in a peace deal.

Second, Hamas has made very reasonable, and in fact plausible, overtures toward an extended ceasefire — again not followed up by Israel because it doesn’t suit its colonialist aspirations. Thirdly, did anti-Han Chinese, anti-Muslim pogroms carried out by the Tibetans recently nullify the Tibetan cause? No because a)they were recognised as the actions of a desperate, repressed and brutalized people; and b) it doesn’t make the Chinese government’s abuses any less acceptable, nor does it justify their actions. So why is it different for the Palestinians?

Don, I wanted to bring up I/P because it is relevant, here we have two situations that are comparable in important ways, and therefore the reactions towards them in the Western media and commentary are revealing. Take as an example, Barack Obama’s calls for Bush to boycott the opening ceremony (I don’t think even the Dalai Lama would go that far), and his craven apologetics for the starvation siege of Gaza (which affected the whole population and not just Hamas or other sundry terrorists) — like I say it’s an important barometer of attitudes.

Anas you seem to be missing this bit. I support a Palestinian state but you don’t think they’d get more sympathy if it wasn’t for the suicide bombers and the rampant anti-semitism, and Al-Qaeda?

Yes I agree with you. But on the other hand, isn’t this outweighed by the fact that we are in the West more responsible for the situation in Palestine than in Tibet; and doesn’t common sense morality therefore dictate that Palestine should take priority over Tibet?

Anas you seem to be missing this bit. I support a Palestinian state but you don’t think they’d get more sympathy if it wasn’t for the suicide bombers and the rampant anti-semitism, and Al-Qaeda?

On this blog, how much time has been given over to I/P and how much to Tibet/China?

In the media, same question.

But the Olympic torch relay (originating at the Berlin Olympics as a conceit of Aryan whatever) heading for China is Tibet’s best chance to get a break, get some awareness. I’m not optimistic on the Games improving China’s human rights record, but it might help.

Why the urge to find I/P connections, are there other comparisons to be made? Must every debate be viewed through that prism?

Nothing like a good arguement to lower the blood pressure. Sonia – I hope you gave them hell and a quick lesson in a robust Anglo-Saxon debate.

I digress – My options for which cereal I can ethically eat are slowly being wittled down. Please can someone reassure me ‘Beafy’ Botham was not a flame runner. I so like my shredded wheat, I would hate to have to boycott it.

Don’t blame the Chinese people, they are prisoners too, just boycott Western companies that ride the Olympics.

Can we have a PP list of flame runners and what we have to boycott.

Justforfun

Anas: I agree that Israel’s occupation of the West Bank is a disgrace to Israel and those that acquiesce in it, but there are complications. One is that no-one would regard the very existence of China as threatened- realistically or rhetorically- by Tibetan and other ethnic minorities. Compare the demands of the Dalai Lama with those of HAMAS The very level of control of the media is revealing about the two societies and the way they function.