Embarrassed of mixed relationships?


by Sunny
17th March, 2008 at 11:16 am    

Samira Ahmed of Channel 4 News fame sent me an email asking this question:

I’m fascinated by one of the issues raised in Sathnam Sanghera’s autobio “If you don’t know me by now”. Not the taboo about mental illness or anything, but why so many educated smart second generation Asians — men and women lie to their parents about dating white people.

I’ve met women journalists in their 30s who’ve been to warzones, and run incredible personal risks, but they’re still seeing boyfriends in secret. Sanghera was on Midweek a couple of days ago talking about how he never held hands with a succession of gori girlfriends in public for fear of being “spotted.” This man was a successful journalist at the FT! Could it be that deep inside, some people secretly agree with their parents that white people are not “good enough”?

I bet your readers would have interesting thoughts on the issue.

Do you, people?


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  1. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:01 pm  

    Could it be that deep inside, some people secretly agree with their parents that white people are not “good enough”?

    I’m yet to be persuaded that’s the case; in my experience (I’m in a mixed relationship with someone of Sikh Indian extraction) and the experiences of those I’ve spoken to who are Asian and in mixed relationships its more about the family and the control they attempt to exert on their British born/bred offspring. Hence the secrecy, it’s better/easier to live a double life then deal with the hassle and interference.

  2. Nindy — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:12 pm  

    As progressive and independent as you might be, your parents have a strange sort of hold over you, and thus, however much you may disagree with their values and beliefs, their way of thinking has a sly way of sinking into your consciousness.

    So, for example, you might well be courting a white woman and very happy, but because you know your parents would be disappointed in finding out, you kind of perversely keep it on the down low, regardless of how much of a confident, opinionated, liberal individual you are. Maybe it has something to do with the idea that we always seek the approval of our parents regardless of whether we’re 10 and came first in a race, or we’re 49 and we win the nobel peace prize. For a lot of us, the acknowledgemt and applause we get from our parents far outweighs the respect and admiration of our peers. Thus, knowing well that they’d been very negative about your non-asian girlfriend/boyfriend, you but up a facade of the perfect son/daughter to keep the peace so to speak.

    So, for example, in a public setting, where you can almost physically feel that the whole world is casting curious eyes your way in the sense that you’re atypical and unusual, you may feel inclined to walk side by side without any intimacy with your partner. You’ve noticed that you yourself have sometimes second glanced a black woman with a white guy, which comes to my final argument, that mixed-race relationships are still seen as taboo in society.

    That said, I suppose it does depend on your strength of character because as an Brit-Asian journalist seeing a non-asian, I don’t really give a monkey’s what people feel although I must admit I feel disappointed and shocked at how archaic some people’s attitudes towards mixed race relationships are.

  3. Chairwoman — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:16 pm  

    The Jews aren’t good enough for the Christians (also Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, no doubt), the Christians aren’t good enough for the Jews (and the other mob), Whites are wrong for blacks and browns, and the other ways round. All computations of peoples from the sub-continent aren’t good enough for each other and nor are Christians and Jews. Africans and West Indians appear not to think highly of each other, and Catholics don’t want their children to marry Protestants. Protestants don’t want their children to marry Catholics or other branches of Protestantism. I also believe that the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Burmese all think that they are better than each other. On these small islands, their are Scots, Welsh, English and Irish who would nail their heads to the wall if their kids married any of the other groups. And finally, Orthodox Jews don’t want their children to marry Reform or Progressive Jews, and other Orthodox Jews who follow the interpretations of different Orthodox sages.

    Now put the lid firmly back on that can of worms.

  4. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:25 pm  

    some people might be “embarrassed”. in deep fear might be a better description – though again – the question may arise – you can go to a warzone but you can’t be honest with your family? shows up the problem with familial control/expectations and how deeply ingrained this is.

    what is also interesting though – is how many people actually have such relationships, but then settle down to marry someone suitable. and the wider peer influence – i.e. that it’s quite fine to do that at uni-but you should think about your family when it comes to marriage – there is quite some pressure from mates along those lines, suprisingly. for example, when i decided to announce my relationship, i had a lot of my asian friends telling me to think very carefully, in fact, i probably was much more scared listening to what some of my friends were telling me.
    (and quite amusing after the event..deciding whether to invite people who back then said, what = you are serious about a gora!)

    and conversely, i now meet lots of random people in cafes who ask me advice..when they find out i got married to my boyfriend..’how did you tell your family!..what was their reaction..how should i handle it..etc. etc.’ and they seem relieved that someone tells them, look just tell your parents and be honest, no point trying to live 2 lives, it just eats into you’.

    of course, i have met some people – who did say clearly they would only date ‘other people’ (i.e. not just different race, but different caste/asian ethnicity/religion’) and would marry their cousins because that’s what momma wanted – surprise suprise they were momma-boy types.

  5. deep singh — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:41 pm  

    “Protestants don’t want their children to marry… Catholics”

    Chairwoman, Thanks for highlighting the universal nature of this issue (usually presented here as a brown or black thing). I only think I would add to this point, is that what parents desire for their children is one thing – something, we could even put to one side as old age and being ‘set in their ways’, what is more concerning is the attitudes of one’s peers when it comes to mixed relationships.

  6. Philanthropist — on 17th March, 2008 at 12:54 pm  

    I think this is a very complex issue that is highlighted well by Chairwoman’s post. The fact is that all the different groups have some underlying problem with the other. It’s either a history related issue (I never get that one) or some personal experience they’ve had which then makes them think, ‘hey, that person (and anyone who happens to be the same race/creed/religion) is no longer good in my eyes and they certainly aren’t good enough to marry my kid’. The bottom line is people are NOT tolerant to anything ranging from the beliefs/ideas, food or culture of a different group because most of the time it is so far removed from their own. There’ll always be this thought that, oh they are so very different from us that they will never be able to fit in here. Not true (well, not in my opinion anyway). It’s all about tolerance and adapting; we can do it, we all have to do it on a daily basis, but in very small and often non offensive way that we often don’t notice it. Accepting mixed race relationships isn’t that different, but there needs to be an overhaul in the way people think i.e. they need to free themselves of these non sensical prejudices they have.

  7. Philanthropist — on 17th March, 2008 at 1:00 pm  

    Did anyone see All White in Barking on Friday night BBC 2? I think that programme covered some interesting ideas relating to the general feelings between natives and migrants.

  8. deep singh — on 17th March, 2008 at 1:31 pm  

    The original article asked:

    “Could it be that deep inside, some people secretly agree with their parents that white people are not “good enough”?”

    Whilst it is good to hear things are working out well for Leon and his partner, I would beg to differ on this point, which is why we see even Leon’s closing comments describe the situation as “it’s better/easier to live a double life then deal with the hassle and interference”.

    I will relay my personal experiences of the same:

    During my university years, I was one of handful of visible practising Sikh students on campus (i.e. turban on head etc etc) and distinctly recall the adverse reaction I received when various ‘Asian’ students found out I had a girlfriend (this is before we even discuss her background/ethnicity).

    Interestingly this reprimand wasn’t from other practising Sikhs (who were largely indifferent), but rather those who for most would fall under the so-called “progressive and independent” label.

    These people, much like the now celebrated Sathnam Sanghera had no doubt as part of their “progression and independence” chosen to remove external markers of their traditions (i.e. cut off their top-knots etc) – for them and others of a similar persuasion (i.e. South-Asian Hindu, Muslim or Sikh descent but not necessarily ‘religious’ but certainly would consider themselves as ‘progressive’ and ‘independent’) the idea of a Turbaned Sikh man having a girlfriend was somehow an abomination.

    What was more interesting was when many came to learn of our differing ethnicities, suddenly I find myself not only being the receipting of sermons from my ‘progressive’ brethren about how a ‘religious Sikh like me’ shouldn’t be dating but also learn of various attempts on part of these individuals to make a concerted effort to bring our relationship to an end, because it was “just plain wrong”.

    Now, these people were final year students in subjects such as Aeronautical Engineering, Law and Actuarial Science, there was no ‘parental’ presence on site to influence these reactions nor were they motivated by some sort of bizarre religiosity.

    I personally regard this to be inherently part of what comedian Sanjeev Baskhar calls “cultural schizophrenia”.

    This mattes permeates the lives of the second generation Asians in the UK, where the so-called “independent and progressive” individuals may well go on to achieve academic and other successes yet their mindset remains stuck in some peculiar subculture developed in the UK and largely linked to the issues raised under the need for a constitution discussion.

    To elaborate, these progressive and independent individuals will happily discard their heritage on the understanding that things such as not going to cinemas, not using telephones, not having white friends, not reading books, not discussing matters with Muslims, Tories and Jews etc are somehow ‘genuine’ requirements of religious ‘traditions’ (as Mr Sanghera’s biography likes to make out for his own abandonment of Sikh traditions) however will despite their so called independence, they still hold onto issues such as marrying within the “correct” racial group or caste as some sort of legitimate “cultural” concern (hence, why even the now fêted Mr Sanghera felt the need to hide his relationships with women of a differing ethnicity).

  9. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 1:42 pm  

    I should be clear my closing comment was speaking generally about others, not specifically about myself!

  10. Tozznok — on 17th March, 2008 at 2:52 pm  

    What does “gori” mean?

  11. deep singh — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:02 pm  

    Tozznok,

    Gora/Gori is the Punjabi (and/or Hindi) term for a white male/female, respectively.

  12. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:31 pm  

    yes its interesting to hear what people think. when i was shoved onto the bbc world service’s have your say at last minute notice (ahem! thanks to some people who have too many contacts :-) ) to talk about mixed marriages, some of the stuff that people said when they phoned in/wrote in…

    as A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth and all Bollywood movies will testify…i think the kind of discrimination (or multiple axes of discrimination shall i say) we have in the Indian Subcontinent with regards who exactly constitutes a ‘suitable partner’ – is unbeatable!

  13. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:32 pm  

    leon – no. 10 :-)

  14. Parvinder Singh — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:33 pm  

    #5: ‘what is also interesting though – is how many people actually have such relationships, but then settle down to marry someone suitable..’

    That is so true. I also feel, although this may be controversial but there is a element of coolness, even danger of being in a mix relationship, how else is one to explain the number of these types of relationships at uni.

    I had one friend, from Afghanistan dating a Sikh girl. After uni, they went their separate ways and he married his mother’s choice. Another friend was a Sikh dating a Hindu Gujarati although I think they may have got married in the end. Gujaratis tended to date Sikhs, Other Sikhs tended to date Muslims and very few stuck within their ‘communities’. My first girlfriend was Jewish and later on at uni, a Pakistani. Other Asians would deliberatly use the word ‘Paki’ in front of me to make me aware of their disgust. But as our uni days were coming to an end, we both realised our relationship could not be sustained unless we went for an extreme measure, which meant her eloping in typical bollywood style… not my cup of tea. We both ended up luckily finding people of our own faith in marriage. I have an older brother who married an American (white), a younger brother who married a white mancunian. Both these marriages were non-issues in our family.

    After uni, the excuses run dry. People start to think about having children and I think its then that it dawns on them the repercussions. But it depends on the combination of the mix. Sikhs with Hindu or any Asian with White tend to get away with it but Sikh or Hindu with Muslim…. = asking for trouble.

  15. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:39 pm  

    good point from deep singh in no. 6. – and no. 7.

    what’s interesting is the bit where you say “there was no ‘parental’ presence on site to influence these reactions nor were they motivated by some sort of bizarre religiosity.” and that’s very revealing. i saw a lot of that when i was at uni..and i was also thinking..but there are no parents around! what’s the problem!

    of course we have heard many times the view that that anyone marrying ‘out’ is seen to be “sticking it” ‘ to the ‘community’…which is interesting to say the least.

  16. Vikrant — on 17th March, 2008 at 3:41 pm  

    he never held hands with a succession of gori girlfriends in public for fear of being “spotted.”

    Same here, but thats because of fear of being exposed as a player that i am. Americans goriya are such suckers for my Estuary, that you simply cant not be a playah.. lol.. yes I’m having the time of me life :P ..

    Well speaking of fear of being spotted, i think its more so for women than men. One of me frat brothers is dating this Indian chick. Uhmm I’ve seen and heard ‘em do all sorts of things IN the house (its an almost all white frat), but they will like almost never hangout together in public especially if Indian people are around.

  17. Philanthropist — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:04 pm  

    University is a great time for idealists, but like a few of you said, that idealism doesn’t often translate well to ‘real life’ post university.

  18. Ashik — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:08 pm  

    Sonia:

    ‘when i decided to announce my relationship,’

    Gosh, you Did dop a Faria Alam!

    Your views on South Asian culture generally; issues of extended families, mixed relationships and the role of Islam in particular are suddenly becoming clearer.

    While you are certainly entitled to your views, I personally do not believe that people like you should be given platforms like BBC World. If you want to be white, you must understand that this is a minority pursuit amongst Asians generally. There is a huuuuuuge difference between INTEGRATION and ASSIMILATION. You appear to be opting for the latter. I also stand by my previous comments on another thread regarding the types of Asians who write on PP. It seems that PP wishes to be irrelevant.

    ps. Before anyone uses the ‘r’ word, please explain why the lack of intermarriage between Northern Irish White folk of Protestant and Catholic backgrounds doesn’t seem to interest members on PP so much.

  19. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:11 pm  

    “but there is a element of coolness, even danger of being in a mix relationship, how else is one to explain the number of these types of relationships at uni.”

    hmm..perhaps because people aren’t at home under their parent’s scruiny?

    perhaps this is when people feel they have the freedom to challenge the assumption (that clearly many people have) that the “normal” thing to do is to date within the group. and you know attraction is attraction, you don’t choose who you are attracted to really, do you. You might choose to not give into an attraction, or pursue ones that are suitable.

  20. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:20 pm  

    “Gosh, you Did dop a Faria Alam!”

    Hmm, hardly, i don’t think i have appeared in the Sun newspaper for dating the England football coach? (, or been on Big Brother.) I am married to someone who is not Asian. ( ooh suddenly they are the same thing!?) very funny that.

    “My views on islam have become clearer.” that’s quite a leap isn’t it. what a stereotype! for example, one of the most inspiring muslim woman’s blog i regularly read on the internet, is a lady who is half-Pakistani, half- Egyptian and her husband is English. And actually a lot of the other Bengali women i know who have married non-Asians, are actually quite religious and have become more so since they got married. So you should probably examine your stereotypes. My views towards Islam meant that yes, i wasn’t about to marry a Mullah type that’s for sure. But i could’ve married any no. of asian fellows who are closet agnostics – in fact i think the most rabid atheist i have ever dated was a bangladeshi guy – when i was in my first year at university.

    and views on extended families – so how are my views on this becoming clearer to you Ashiq? do explain. If anything, the fact that my husband is so close to his family and they are a big family, has meant that i have made a big effort with mine. :-) he likes bengali mishti much more than i do so is very popular with my family.. Perhaps you should really start putting your stereotypes away?

  21. Gurpreet — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:28 pm  

    re:#19
    I don’t know if it is to do with coolness the higher number of mixed couples at uni, i think it’s just because there happens to be more people of different backgrounds around and so by default you have more mixed couples. If all secondary schools were really really mixed you’d probably see the same within that age group too.

    like you said Sonia, you don’t choose who you are attracted too. And the reason many of these relationships may not continue beyond uni may well be because of the pressures of external reality, not everyone can give up family or deal with the stress…alternatively it might just be that many r’ships beyond uni dont last anyway, even if they are same faith/race (i don’t know what the figures are on that one!:)

  22. Sunny — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:31 pm  

    I personally do not believe that people like you should be given platforms like BBC World.

    When someone actually cares for what you think Ashik, then feel free to give them your opinion. Thankfully, no one does.

  23. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:35 pm  

    heh, here we go again, why should you assume i want to be white? (are you doing some more projecting?) im very happy with my skin colour thank you – its definitely one of my assets, along with my lovely figure.. and lovely black hair, and my lovely black eyes and I love being an exotic foreigner..(so why would i want to be white like most people in england?)

    which is good, seeing as i have only ever lived in the country where i am “from” for 2 years..and that then most people kept insisting what a foreigner i was! (much more so than all the other countries i grew up in) And the one country i lived longest in while i was growing up – everyone was from everywhere and the citizens were a minority – so everyone was ‘foreign’. its what i’m used to. that should really explain my attitudes to you actually – that i’m a foreigner wherever i go, so conversely, i am at home wherever i go ( cos i have to be…) It’s a good trick to have in this global age as well..home isn’t home for very long.

  24. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:36 pm  

    good point gurpreet

  25. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:38 pm  

    heh i dont why ashik is so paranoid, it’s hardly as if anyone heard what i had to say..it was hardly a platform! but he really does seem to have a grudge against what he thinks i ‘represent’ “people like me” – what is behind this kind of thinking? I think sociologically speaking it is very significant. Ashik, if you are in London, i think you should come and have a cup of coffee with me and discuss further. “What it is i don’t like about people like you”.

  26. Gurpreet — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:39 pm  

    re: Ashiks post

    “If you want to be white, you must understand that this is a minority pursuit amongst Asians generally.”

    I’m sure there are Asians out there who want to be white and I agree that in itself is a minority pursuit, because not all Asians who adopt British culture or who have mixed relationships are trying to be white, they are just being themselves. Also a lot of us are not ‘adopting’ British culture because it is already our seeing as many of us were born here.

    It is always quite frustrating when Asian/black etc people seem to assume that if u have a partner of a different faith/race that suddenly you have become “western”/”white”… however never will this be seen in reverse where the person of the alternative faith/race is trying to become more “eastern”/Asian etc… double standards.

    Why it has to be seen as surrendering to another faith/race makes little sense because cultures and traditions can stay alive as long as you as an individual choose to keep them. Disregarding someone and saying “oh you’re trying to be white” doesn’t help in any way all it does it makes them feel more isolated and unaccepted and so by default you are partly to blame for forcing them to become more “white” (if that’s how you want to put it)

  27. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:49 pm  

    yep gurpreet, exactly as you say. that of course is why so many people are under pressure to date/marry within the group – as the dominant pressure seems to be that if you don’t -you’re somehow trying to be ‘different’ – somehow you are showing that your ‘own’ culture isn’t good enough for you. very loaded issues – a lot to unpack. i think culture is a mixed bag at the end of the day, people make culture their own, its not something you opt in or out, like 1 or 0. So i think what underlies discussions like these – are what people actually believe about “culture”. some people feel if you do your own thing, criticize, and refuse to conform to group pressure, you are opting out of the ‘culture’. others are not so cut and dried, black or white about these things. these underlying attitudes do have a big role to play.

  28. Philanthropist — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:51 pm  

    26:’however never will this be seen in reverse where the person of the alternative faith/race is trying to become more “eastern”/Asian etc… double standards.’

    I don’t know. I feel like asking a few people about that one. I don’t think that comment is race specific.

    ‘Why it has to be seen as surrendering to another faith/race makes little sense because cultures and traditions can stay alive as long as you as an individual choose to keep them.’

    Yes. I agree with that, but still think the majority of people believe the preservation of culture/religion is easier to maintain if both parents are of the same background/faith.

  29. Philanthropist — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:58 pm  

    I mean if you’re talking about passing on such notions to offspring (hence why I used the word ‘parents’).

  30. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 4:59 pm  

    yes, the problem is when “culture” becomes seen as a concrete ‘thing ‘ in itself which has to be perpetuated, rather than the sum total of what individuals happen to be doing, which is always in flux as people mingle and time passes.

  31. Ashik — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:01 pm  

    Sunny: ‘When someone actually cares for what you think Ashik, then feel free to give them your opinion. Thankfully, no one does’

    Friend, are you a Bengali/Sylheti or Muslim? If not then issues of representation in that context probably a) don’t matter to you b) you are likely to see it in a different context.

    Interestingly, media outlets to minority desi diaspora communities that ARE representative and address their issues are more popular those those that don’t. Hence Channel S is marginally more popular than Bangla TV. These media outlets can deal more robustly with issues in the community.

  32. Ashik — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:09 pm  

    The fundamental question is how can one see oneself as part of a group if one strays so far in word and action from central precept of this group – as agreed by a majority in that group, whether religious or racial?

    This question is different from whether one believes in inter-racial/religious marriages etc as being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. That is down to personal choice/preference.

  33. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:15 pm  

    the problem is when “culture” becomes seen as a concrete ‘thing ‘ in itself which has to be perpetuated, rather than the sum total of what individuals happen to be doing, which is always in flux as people mingle and time passes.

    Very well said indeed. Culture, traditions, customs, these things evolve (thankfully!).

  34. Sunny — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:15 pm  

    Friend, are you a Bengali/Sylheti or Muslim? If not then issues of representation in that context probably a) don’t matter to you b) you are likely to see it in a different context.

    And your point is what? Being from a Sylheti or Bengali background doesn’t imply everything thinks like you either. Stop tripping on the same issue about other Sylhetis not representing your worldview. State your opinion, and stick to that. No one asked for anything more including your personala opinions on other people’s lives. I will delete your messages if you carry on being an idiot.

  35. Gurpreet — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:41 pm  

    re #32

    central precepts are usually decided by a minority and then a majority decide to follow it. so there will already people within this group that only accept some of the initial principles but enough to be a part of the group anyway.

    and in most caseS people belonging to a particular group don’t follow all the principles set out anyway (in my experiece anyway) and always pix and mix but are still seen as part of the group. It is when someone disregards a principle that others in the group are threatened by that they are suddenly “not seen as part of the group” anymore….which appear to me as double standards.

  36. deep singh — on 17th March, 2008 at 5:56 pm  

    Sonia,

    “of course we have heard many times the view that that anyone marrying ‘out’ is seen to be “sticking it” ‘ to the ‘community’…which is interesting to say the least”

    This is the bizarre thing, those preaching to me at the time and those who eventually went as far as taking it upon themselves to end the relationship has already ‘stuck it’ to the community through their open decision to break all taboos of their heritage.

    For those that were Sikhs, this meant the infamous ‘cutting of their top knots’, consuming alcohol, smoking etc and Hindus, eating beef etc etc – all that was fine and dandy for these ‘progressive’ and ‘independent’ types, as it no doubt was some sort of marker for their ‘progression’ and ‘independence’ however the shock horror of having an Orthodox Sikh man dating a girl of a different ethnicity was obvious a revulsion too much for these second generation twats to bear.

    You go on to mention:

    “the problem is when “culture” becomes seen as a concrete ‘thing ‘ in itself which has to be perpetuated, rather than the sum total of what individuals happen to be doing, which is always in flux as people mingle and time passes”

    The actual problem is that the UK has allow for the proliferation of vast ethnic minority bastardised “subcultures” in and around its suburban landscape which are neither representative of the “host” community nor that of the “community of origin” and certainly cannot be considered a ‘mix of the two’ as it invariably incorporates belief systems which are alien to both and is little more than an abomination of culture in any sense of the word – it is nothing more tribal identities being touted as culture.

  37. Boyo — on 17th March, 2008 at 6:07 pm  

    From the Boyo archive… I’m white and my ex-Asian girlfriend told me her parents didn’t mind whom she dated provided they weren’t black or Muslim.

    And we didn’t break up because of her parents, who were very welcoming. We just argued too damn much.

  38. Boyo — on 17th March, 2008 at 6:16 pm  

    To be fair, as for my parents, WWC folk, they used to complain about Asians when I was growing up because, as my mum put it, “they don’t make the effort to fit in” – ie, the women wore saris. That was definitely their main gripe (I mean, they didn’t complain about West Indians in the same way). As for the g/f they got on fine, though when we broke up they said well you did bicker. When my dad was in hospital mind, every time an Asian doctor came near he’d wink and say, oh she’s your type…

    Actually, like most men, any sexy woman is.

  39. Don — on 17th March, 2008 at 6:29 pm  

    Gurpreet,

    You make some excellent points, but from personal experience I would have to disagree with,

    ‘It is always quite frustrating when Asian/black etc people seem to assume that if u have a partner of a different faith/race that suddenly you have become “western”/”white”… however never will this be seen in reverse where the person of the alternative faith/race is trying to become more “eastern”/Asian etc… double standards.’

    A friend’s sister married a moslem guy about five years ago, having converted, and I’m told she is significantly more observant than he. One of my close friends is married to a white guy and she certainly doesn’t want to be less black, and it’s hard to see how she could be more ‘western’ as she is third or fourth generation Geordie.

    I’m not even sure what being more ‘western’ means.

  40. Sid — on 17th March, 2008 at 6:30 pm  

    There is a huuuuuuge difference between INTEGRATION and ASSIMILATION. You appear to be opting for the latter. I also stand by my previous comments on another thread regarding the types of Asians who write on PP. It seems that PP wishes to be irrelevant.

    Another question you may want to answer on here, is why Sylhetis third and fourth generation folks are still so huuuuuuuuugely dislocated to the point of using, what are admittedly, ‘fresh off the boat’ terminology and sentiments like “wanting to be white” and “coconut”? I mean, the Sylheti community is probably one of the oldest settled Asian communities in the UK, but why do you think they still think and behave like they arrived here yesterday?

  41. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 6:46 pm  

    35 – yep gurpreet, i think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
    interesting what you say deep singh, tribal identities indeed.

  42. Rumbold — on 17th March, 2008 at 7:46 pm  

    If one looks at Bollywood as a guide, this seems to be more of a case of double standards. There are an increasing number of films with white female leads, but none (to my knowledge) where a white guy snags an Asian girl. There might be the odd one, but the impression I get is that it is okay to have a white girl ‘on the side’ before marriage, but an Asian girl cannot be seen with a white guy.

  43. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 8:23 pm  

    If one looks at Bollywood as a guide,

    That sounds like the beginning of a new meme. :D

  44. fugstar — on 17th March, 2008 at 8:35 pm  

    “I mean, the Sylheti community is probably one of the oldest settled Asian communities in the UK, but why do you think they still think and behave like they arrived here yesterday?”

    Because it can afford to do so seriously due to swarming effects and erm.. nondhakafication?!? btw ill find you a person from any district of the country who’ll identify certain traits as ‘not theirs’ and reject them.

    heres a new one, chimese coconut -> banana! its real.

    on the main topic. i wonder what heppens to all the expartners who get used by the ethnic in the ethnic’s knowledge that itll not be their final solution. martin amis’s in the making….?

  45. Muhamad [pbum] — on 17th March, 2008 at 8:39 pm  

    I’ve finally bought Sanghera’s book, and I gathered from his letter (which tells us was written for him by a fluent speaker of Punjabi) to his mother that he was gay. Did I get that wrong? Someone please tell me.

    I’d like to know more about Samira Ahmed, is she in a mixed relationship? I’m not saying that it’s relevant to her question, but, still, I’d really like to know.

    The question that Samira Ahmed is asking about is one of colour or ethnicity, so it really irks me when I read about “Muslims”, “Sikhs”, and “Jews”. Certainly, religion plays a part for religious people, but what about those of us who don’t have a religion?

    It might matter to the wannabe educated middle class and the nouveau riche, but to people like myself (who are living out their boring suburban life) it doesn’t matter in least, neither my mrs or myself wake up in the middle of the night to tell ourselves that we are sleeping with someone who is of a different colour. How is that, not being able to reduce someone to the colour of their skin?

    Of all the human asininities, this is the worst one.

    Some 2nd, and even 3rd, generation of Asians can’t be bothered because of guilt and fear, as is evident from Sanghera’s telling of his experience. It’s not easy to deal with doctrinaire parents.

  46. Gurpreet — on 17th March, 2008 at 8:51 pm  

    Hey Don,

    sorry should have put that those example were more from my experience and shouldn’t have geeralised…i’m sure there are people out there who are more accepting on both sides of the fence…:)

  47. Sid — on 17th March, 2008 at 8:59 pm  

    Because it can afford to do so seriously due to swarming effects and erm.. nondhakafication?!?

    Chairwoman was right but then she always is. ;)

  48. Sid — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:06 pm  

    I’ve finally bought Sanghera’s book, and I gathered from his letter (which tells us was written for him by a fluent speaker of Punjabi) to his mother that he was gay. Did I get that wrong? Someone please tell me.

    Muhammad, not wrong. I’m reading it now and it’s absolutely brilliant.

  49. Gibs — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:49 pm  

    A recent survey by the Asian Network found that 87% of white British 18-35 year olds “wouldn’t mind” marrying someone of a different race.

    A similar question asked to 18-35 year old British Asians only found that 53% wouldn’t mind marrying someone of a different race – and that figure falls to well below 50% if the “other race” is black rather than white.

    Ashamed to have to say this, but whilst the attitudes of middle class, university educated whites towards blacks is (in general) much less bigotted than it was twenty years ago, the same can’t be said for the attitudes of middle class, university educated British Asians towards blacks.

  50. Sunny — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:52 pm  

    A friend started reading it yesterday and loved it so much she’s gone through 8 chapters already (!!!). I’m going to start next week.

    We’ll do an interview for Sathnam here if you folks like: ask your questions and I’ll put them to him.

  51. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:55 pm  

    Gibs, what was the breakdown of figures by age?

  52. Leon — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:56 pm  

    Great idea Sunny re the interview!

  53. Gurpreet — on 17th March, 2008 at 9:59 pm  

    “We’ll do an interview for Sathnam here if you folks like: ask your questions and I’ll put them to him.”

    if you get us all a free copy of his book Sunny, we’ll all have more background to ask questions from;)

  54. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 11:04 pm  

    “neither my mrs or myself wake up in the middle of the night to tell ourselves that we are sleeping with someone who is of a different colour. How is that, not being able to reduce someone to the colour of their skin?”

    Quite. As if people get into a relationship with “the Other” – they’re in a relationship with a Person -why is this so overlooked I can’t understand. it is frankly racist to reduce someone to their skin colour.

  55. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 11:05 pm  

    or to be unable to see past the ‘group’ one attributes/assigns a person to. is that what a person is? a reflection of the ‘group’? how sad if that is indeed the case. there really isn’t much point existing if the richness of an individual is reduced down to that.

  56. sonia — on 17th March, 2008 at 11:13 pm  

    If one looks at Bollywood as a guide,

    That sounds like the beginning of a new meme. :D

    heh now we’re on to something!

    yes sunny do interview Sathnam, it should be fun. i have been reading a few of his columns since you linked to him and have found them to have an amusing lilt to them. am quite keen to read his book.

  57. dmatr — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:14 am  

    Forgive me for being blunt, but let’s not pussy-foot around here: it is a particularly invidious form of racism that for some reason is deemed acceptable. It’s wrong and should be challenged whenever and wherever it occurs.

    If my (white) parents told me they didn’t want me to date a brown or black woman I’d be fecking appalled and would tell them so in no uncertain terms. Why should a brown or black person react any differently?

  58. nobodies hero — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:27 am  

    Human beings are tribal. We are part of the animal kingdom, We trust and find comfort from people of our own pack.

  59. deep singh — on 18th March, 2008 at 9:31 am  

    Muhamad [pbum],

    “The question that Samira Ahmed is asking about is one of colour or ethnicity, so it really irks me when I read about “Muslims”, “Sikhs”, and “Jews”. Certainly, religion plays a part for religious people, but what about those of us who don’t have a religion?”

    Muhamad,

    As I highlighted above, my personal experience of the matter clearly showed that those who were clearly ‘not religious’ were precisely the ones perpetuating their “tribal identity” despite their shedding of any religiousity, it was these folks who had the problem ultimately with relationships from mixed ethnicities, clearly ‘religion’ (not ‘religiousity’) came into the matter, since it forms a nice part of their UK bastardised subcultures, whether or not those concerned are religious or without religion per se.

  60. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:15 pm  

    If one looks at Bollywood as a guide, this seems to be more of a case of double standards. There are an increasing number of films with white female leads, but none (to my knowledge) where a white guy snags an Asian girl. There might be the odd one, but the impression I get is that it is okay to have a white girl ‘on the side’ before marriage, but an Asian girl cannot be seen with a white guy.

    Taking Bollywood as a guide everyone would mean thinking that the world was full of singing and dancing and everything would be in technicolour. What a strange barometer. You may as well ‘take British films and TV’ as a guide and ask why white people have double standards about things. What a joke.

  61. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:29 pm  

    Ashik, Sylheties don’t even consider marriage outside of the claustrophobic village limits of Sylhet, so considering intra-racial marriage is completely anathema to most even so-called assimilated nth-generation Sylheti sprogs. Prehaps you should address the question posed by Samira Ahmed: Are you people too good to marry outside of your race and community?

    British-Sylehtis of your generation tend to be even more conservative, reactionary and exceptionalist than your grandparents, the good men and women who braved migration and dislocation to better the lives for their children, ergo numbskulls like you. Their children don’t have half the guts or vision of their migratory forbears, as it happens. They produce more sprogs who continue to demonstrate the lowest achievement records in schools of any social group. Sylheti kids are still the the most eligible for Free School Meals, which is a standard indicator of socially-challenged parenting.

    You really are not in a position to say that you’ve done better than this or that social group, unless you want to wallow in that characteristic self-pity and perpetuate the low achievement standards that never seemed to be addressed let alone challenged by people like yourselves because you’re all so busy claiming to be beyond criticism.

  62. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

    Hence Sylheti rap artists and admiration for black artists like Tupac Shakur.

    Tupac’s dead, sadly. I prefer the West Coast geniuses found on the Stones Throw Records impring. People like Madlib, MF DOOM, etc. Check it out for yourself.

  63. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:57 pm  

    What is this nonsense about Sathnam Sanghera being gay?

  64. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 12:59 pm  

    fancy him do you? :)

  65. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:01 pm  

    But it doesn’t say in his articles that he’s gay. Why did the guy called Muhammad say he’s gay earlier in this thread? What a stupid thing to say.

  66. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:18 pm  

    but then you arent an artist or a creative are you, you are a clerk of some kind right?

  67. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:21 pm  

    hey, Einstein was a clerk.

  68. Ashik — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:34 pm  

    It is a simple matter of fact that people from similar ethnic and religious and social backgrounds, regardless of culture and religion, tend to marry. Therefore, the focus on the Asian minority is unfair. In my opinion individuals who do not support mixed marriages are not necessarily motivated by racism. There are a myriad of good personal, cultural and religious reasons for opposition. It’s not just down to skin colour (that would be racism).

    There are all sorts of weird permutations when it comes to identity and marriage.

    For example, within the Brit Bangladeshi ethnic group the Dhakaiya and Sylheti seldom intermarry, despite racial and religious similarities. Curiously many Dhakaiyas and even Sylhetis who reckon themselves ‘progressive’ would be willing to marry ‘out’ eg. Whites, would never seriously consider marrying from a rival Bengali ethnic group. I guess this is the influence of upbringing. Of course, neither Bengali ethnic group would consider marrying a black person.

  69. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:42 pm  

    Most of the upper-class Sylhetis I’ve come across would not even marry outside of their class, consider other Sylheties of lower social order as scummy “potato peelers” from Mulibazar. Even before race enters the picture, class is a major factor. Shit’s fucked up.

  70. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:45 pm  

    no, he was a physicist.

    Ashik, there are 64 districts in desh dude. There are good people from Dhaka who aren’t ashamed of their people or their values.

    There are people who got into public trouble and you dont even know 1% of whats happened to them to go tabloidy on them. shouldnt they be protected from the barbs of your tongue at least if not the rest of th world. ita fareh na.

    For generations south asians have intermarried, and moved and what not due to their jobs, their politics and who they fell for etc. look down the generations and nobody stays still. a generation or so ago there was a lot more interubcontinental mixing.

  71. SalmanRush — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:53 pm  

    “Could it be that deep inside, some people secretly agree with their parents that white people are not “good enough”?”

    Its not that white people are not good enough. Its that white people, generally speaking, exhibit risky behavior in relationships.

  72. SalmanRush — on 18th March, 2008 at 1:55 pm  

    71.

    Sid,

    Is there such a thing as an upper class Syhleti? Was that terribly un-pc of me to ask?

  73. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 2:03 pm  

    no, he was a physicist.

    When he published his first thesis in 1933 he was a patent clerk.

  74. Ashik — on 18th March, 2008 at 2:09 pm  

    Salman, upper class Sylhetis are those middle class professionals of my generation born and bred in these Sceptered Isles. Our mother tongue is English and the language at home is Sylheti. Amongst Dhakaiya upper class usually means whoever speaks their lingo-which was politically imposed on the rest of Bangladesh and attends stodgy old peoples cultural events often laced with freshi party politicking.

  75. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 2:12 pm  

    but then you arent an artist or a creative are you, you are a clerk of some kind right?

    I don’t understand what you’re asking me. I’m not a clerk but I’ve read Sathnam Sanghera’s memoir extracts and it’s clear that he’s not gay so I don’t know why that Muhammad said he was. Doesn’t matter if he was gay but he’s not. Either way he’s not my type, a little too whiney and his newspapers columns filled with dry humour that’s neither dry nor humour.

  76. SalmanRush — on 18th March, 2008 at 2:15 pm  

    76. Thanks for the clarification, Ashik.

  77. Chairwoman — on 18th March, 2008 at 2:57 pm  

    SalmanRush @ 73

    “Its not that white people are not good enough. Its that white people, generally speaking, exhibit risky behavior in relationships.”

    If I, a pale person, said that about darker people, I would, quite rightly, be accused of unacceptable racist behaviour.

  78. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:06 pm  

    so which part of the identity do we sing about and invoke whenever we approach light speed, Einstein the blogger?

    73#
    yes you’ll find as with most places that there is a class structure and its based on specific symbols.

    Whats interesting is how 2nd/3rd gen lovely londonistanis reject modern faked bangladeshi symbols as ‘snooty stuckup syncretic stew’ and forge their own from the best of what they see around them.

    Whats even more interesting is how bangladesh as a whole destroys its upper/middle class every generation or so, because it finds them lacking.

    76# i wasnt calling you a clerk roohi.

  79. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:09 pm  

    Ashik, upper class Sylhetis are more prone to travel and marry outside of Sylhet and tend to be less hung up on narrow provincial allegiances to “greater Sylhet”. One of these is that they are less suspicious of Non-Sylhetis – which other Sylhetis display as second nature, such as the textbook Sylheti caricature on PP – Ashik.

  80. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:14 pm  

    Whats interesting is how 2nd/3rd gen lovely londonistanis reject modern faked bangladeshi symbols as ’snooty stuckup syncretic stew’ and forge their own from the best of what they see around them.

    By celebrating postmodernist mediocrity instilled in the double-standards of post-war multiculturalism.

  81. deep singh — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:14 pm  

    “If I, a pale person, said that about darker people, I would, quite rightly, be accused of unacceptable racist behaviour”

    Indeed.

  82. Ashik — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:30 pm  

    Overall Sylhetis generally wish to integrate on their own terms. The opposite is true for Dhakaiyas.

    Fug, agree re: the false construct of Bangladeshi identity.

    I dislike the way older immigrant Bangladeshi people (mainly Dhakaiyas but some Sylhetis as well) who get all dewy eyed and whimsical about the Lib war and Bangla culture. Yes, you know who you are on PP!

    They forget that the language and culture recognised by BD govt, media outlets and the self-proclaimed ‘cultural elite’ has little foundation amongst ordinary apolitical people. It’s a shame that the mukhtizudahs (Freedom Fighters) were betrayed by the Calcutta leaning scum in power in ’71. Sylheti should have been recognised as a national language (in India they have 16 recognised languages). What’s the point of a zathio basha (national language) so few speak?

  83. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:33 pm  

    Hey Ashik, whats the point the English language here in England when 80% of Sylheti children use it worse than Bangladeshi kids in the motherland thanks to the tragic ghetto-bubble you’ve built around yourselves?

  84. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:36 pm  

    Mediocrity is a thoroughly british value methinks, and deshi nationalisms dont travel convincingly. Congratulations on the number of long words you can string together confidently.

    btw in my little life experience, it is the sylhetti families with fewer insane cultural hangups(humbler) tend to be most enabling of the inclusion of different coloured people in their bloodline/empire. They are also more likely to adopt hard to help children and generally spread the love than the ‘mean ol dhakans’.

  85. Ashik — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:36 pm  

    See us poor Asians might be wife beating/burning, misogynistic mummies boys according to some soapy Asians on this board but we do take marriage and relationship commitments more seriously.

    Amongst Whites and others (generally if not individually) one serious argument and the marriage is over.

    ps. One major cultural/religious reason families are against intermarriage is due to personal hygiene reasons of the non-Asian…..another taboo?

  86. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:45 pm  

    82#
    Its natural that people would feel proud of something they participated in and lost blood over. Its just slightly odd when things are taken out of proportion, especially by those who were just roadies.

    Recently the bangla-brit media tried to encourage the youth type organisations to be more involved with the language type celbrations. People mimed support to gain kudos, but i think the disconnect with the language symbolism showed. Modern language nationalism is always going to have bad points so i suggest multilingualism. Its always useful to skip a few generations and think of all the languages around in the times of the grandparents.

  87. Ashik — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:47 pm  

    Sid, I’ve heard your wife speak English at DP events. I wouldn’t speak about English language skills if I were you. Hint: accent and idiom are all important.
    The idea of comparing Brit Cits from here with Bengali students learning 1930’s IELTS English in desh is laughable. ‘Ken I hab som tee sar’. lolz

    Are ANY DP members actually born in Britain?

  88. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:49 pm  

    lol.

    How many picklers fail the Civilisational Bodna Test?

  89. Sunny — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:51 pm  

    Can you two village boys take your ‘uz Sylhetis are di best‘ love fest somewhere else? It’s boring after reading it for the 20th time. No one cares.

  90. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 3:56 pm  

    sunny bunny,
    the bodna/lota test is important to you continuing exisance as a brown media type. do you pass? be honest now.

  91. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:03 pm  

    ^^^^^

    Funny how so many people who are always bitching about Sunny seem to spend so much time on his blog.

  92. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:05 pm  

    Ashik, my wife may have an accent but her English is better than you think yours is. ;)

  93. Katy Newton — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:17 pm  

    I don’t care if Sid’s wife communicates only in Morse Code, she’s not commenting on here (as far as I know) and trying to wind Sid up by being unpleasant about her is pretty fucking low. In my humble opinion.

  94. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:18 pm  

    word like a motherfucker

  95. Sunny — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:19 pm  

    continuing exisance as a brown media type

    When I’m stupid enough to ask you for advice on what I need to do to become a brown media type, I’ll ask.

  96. Rumbold — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:28 pm  

    Ashik:

    Do you not like white people because of their skin colour, or is it for another, more personal reason? Just wondering.

  97. Leon — on 18th March, 2008 at 4:56 pm  

    Its not that white people are not good enough. Its that white people, generally speaking, exhibit risky behavior in relationships.

    You what??

  98. sonia — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:23 pm  

    perhaps they mean by ‘risky behaviour’ that people are honest about what they are doing therefore the rest of us can be judgmental about it? i think this kind of judgement is quite ironic given its a thread about how many asians are doing a lot of lying and leading double/triple lives!

  99. Don — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:31 pm  

    Ashik,

    Are you capable of making a statement that does not revolve around an offensive stereotype which feeds your self-regard?

    So far I haven’t seen one.

  100. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:41 pm  

    lying and leading double/triple lives.

    bang on. Living with a single consiousness is definately to be encouraged, but is difficult in the short term takes a little leadership and nonpcness from all involved to just be who they are.

    But its not ‘ironic’ because the situation is not symetrical. The social costs for ‘natives’ going exotic (sorry) are less than the ‘newbie’ going ‘out’. That said creolisation is definately a positive for the future in my book. It will force, and has forced greater unity and acceptance from an establishment which prides itself on tolerance but cant help but point to peoples foreign origins when discussing them.

  101. Chairwoman — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:49 pm  

    Better and better, we paler people are not only incapable of sustaining a marriage (I by the way had been married almost 30 years when the Chairman died, and we had plenty of arguments), but are also too dirty to marry darker people.

    And this from a progressive generation!

  102. sonia — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:52 pm  

    yeah Katy, makes you wonder if these boys are like 15 or something. if they’re any older, its a bit worrying. why should sid’s wife even have to speak english? who cares who was born in britain? (you guys sound like the BNP or something.) what kind of a test is that? what is being tested? “freshiness”? well if the opposite of freshiness is some weird discrimination along the lines of skin colour, count me in on the freshiness boat ( heh) why all this competitiveness? if you are superior, then you know it, and good for you. Bas.

  103. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 5:59 pm  

    what kind of a test is that? what is being tested? “freshiness”? well if the opposite of freshiness is some weird discrimination along the lines of skin colour, count me in on the freshiness boat ( heh) why all this competitiveness? if you are superior, then you know it, and good for you. Bas.

    But I thought it was the fashion to bash freshies and blame them for all our problems nowadays? I’m confused. Keep me up on who’s the whipping boy aaj kaal.

    Hey Chairwoman, stereotyping sucks doesn’t it? Gives you a taste of what its like to be Asian in Britain today, not nice at all. Count yourself lucky that kind of stuff only confronts you on marginal blog comments pages, and not relentlessly in the mainstream media and in conversations with people who otherwise seem very nice, but in the middle of a discussion, reveal a moronic kind of racial stereotyping of a kind not acceptable towards Black people or Jews in the year 2008.

  104. Don — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:00 pm  

    ‘The social costs for ‘natives’ going exotic (sorry) are less than the ‘newbie’ going ‘out’. ‘

    Probably true, but who decides these social costs?

    ‘…creolisation is definately a positive for the future in my book.’ Well, if it means getting decent gumbo in Tynedale, I’m all for it.

  105. Don — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:06 pm  

    ‘I’m confused.’

    Why should we care about your confusion?

    ‘… a moronic kind of racial stereotyping…’

    You’re right, we are seeing plenty of that.

    Am I the only one thinking sock-puppets here?

  106. Leon — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:09 pm  

    And this from a progressive generation!

    Hey don’t lump me in with that fucking idiot!!

  107. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:09 pm  

    Why should we care about your confusion?

    I didn’t ask for you to care.

    You’re right, we are seeing plenty of that.

    Glad you agree that there is a lot of stereotyping and chauvinistic generalising towards Asians and other groups by mainstream British society.

    Am I the only one thinking sock-puppets here?

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. Sounds like you should care about your own confusion here.

  108. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:14 pm  

    And this from a progressive generation!

    Hey don’t lump me in with that fucking idiot!!

    Nor me either!

    The biggest price paid for multiculturalism is a two maybe three generations of Sylhetis children who can’t regard anyone outside of their narrow-as-you-like orbits as the enemy. Something about the post-modernist ideal of relativising every fucking thing has turned these people into damaged ghetto freaks. Neither located here nor there. Its quite tragic.

  109. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:19 pm  

    Who decides?
    Whoever or whatever value-set you deem important. these things change slowly. I’m not purging myself of religion, community fealty or historical identity anytime soon though. The weapon that I do withdraw however on the subject of marriage at least, is the south asian community disgust thing, purely out of self interest though, i like the look of the babies.

    btw. (Mal)targetted freshibashing only takes place when one group, perhaps the fresher group, equipped with delusions of progressitude and a few economic stripes, embarks on a civilising mission.

  110. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:27 pm  

    What’s apparent to anyone who has read or commented on here, is that the biggest “freshies” here, should you choose that to be an epithet, the maladjusted idiots you and Ashik. By the way, a freshy would never coin words like “progressitude”, or mangle their english to some grammatical hodge-podge of illegible shite, without a deep sense of irony. The irony is that the freshy is you.

  111. Chairwoman — on 18th March, 2008 at 6:28 pm  

    Leon and Sid, we’re old friends and you both know I don’t mean you.

    Roohi, don’t kid yourself, we’re still confronted with stereotypes, all you have to do is interpret the codes. For example ‘North London businessman’ always means Jew, but is only used when the NLB is suspected of something underhand. I am sure that Leon could tell similar black related things.

    The prejudice is there, and there’s nothing that some of them like better than to see us fight amongst ourselves.

  112. fugstar — on 18th March, 2008 at 7:02 pm  

    Thanks, i think. You make even less sense when you try to.

    You seem very concerned about how people ‘here’ interpret things and hyper sensitive to how they see you. This is the underlying reason why some folks, about whom you play semi-native informant, object to you and dress it up as some dhakaiya thing.

  113. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 7:16 pm  

    fugoo, people expect snappy witty jousting on here from debaters. Not droll boring observations on conflicted identity, confused heritage and vapid religiosity. Save that for your blog.

  114. Leon — on 18th March, 2008 at 9:47 pm  

    Leon and Sid, we’re old friends and you both know I don’t mean you.

    Yeah I know, I just wanted an excuse to call the guy an idiot. :D

  115. Sid — on 18th March, 2008 at 10:15 pm  

    Chairwoman, this site misses your pithy, urbane observations.

  116. nobodies hero — on 18th March, 2008 at 10:35 pm  

    If one looks at Bollywood as a guide, this seems to be more of a case of double standards. There are an increasing number of films with white female leads, but none (to my knowledge) where a white guy snags an Asian girl. There might be the odd one, but the impression I get is that it is okay to have a white girl ‘on the side’ before marriage, but an Asian girl cannot be seen with a white guy.

    The truth is white women have better figures more pleasing on the eye. Asian concept of beauty is the european look. More the european looking the indian actress more pretty she is considered. Therefore why not have the original real macoy. The Gorya

  117. Roohi — on 18th March, 2008 at 11:02 pm  

    Sorry Chairwoman I didn’t know you were Jewish. Yes I agree that the same problem of coded stereotyping of Jews still occurs, although I don’t think its as visceral as the racism and stereotyping indulged in by some parts of the drooling media and ‘blogosphere’ towards brown people.

  118. Ashik — on 19th March, 2008 at 9:04 am  

    I think some ppl wanted another sanitised discussion about poor benighted Asians. However, some home truths have been imparted at least. Pandoras box indeed.

    Certain freshie groups have imperialising tendencies. Naturally they aren’t tolerated (as in any group). What really sticks in the craw is this attempt to pass themselves off as ‘progressive’ to none Bengalis and Whites because they ape certain characteristics of the native population, even while admitting to carrying baggage from ‘home’.

    It really takes the biscuit when a gang of fresh-off-the-boat idiots set up a ‘human rights’ group in Britain which is politically biased, ethnically exclusionary and yet attempts to hold the Banglaeshi govt (never a respecter of human rights, it has to be said) to account.

    How many PP members would learn a new language just to attend a cultural show or seminar? Sheesh.

  119. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 9:50 am  

    haha, what a complete fuckwit you are Ashik.
    Defensive, easily threatened, backward, mysoginistic, complacent are words that come to mind. Multiculturalism has a lot to answer for, for creating and upholding bantustans full of dislocated cretins like you in the midst of England.

  120. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 10:01 am  

    How many PP members would learn a new language just to attend a cultural show or seminar? Sheesh.

    No one asked you to attend any of the fanstastic events we put up in Drishtipat. More than half our audiences are English, they don’t feel they need to “learn a new language” to enjoy the campaigns we produce and all come away with more than you did, but that’s not surprising. And finally, do you need to be reminded that you came of your own volition? Sheesh.

  121. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 10:06 am  

    *misogynistic – having or showing a hatred and distrust of women

  122. fugstar — on 19th March, 2008 at 12:52 pm  

    ashik,

    just do something better. that why i believe crass stuff from technocrats is useful. its inspiration to produce something altogether more wholesome.

  123. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 12:56 pm  

    yeah, human rights is “crass stuff” but upholding your victimhood like a badge of honour while despising the host community is “altogether more wholesome”. Way to go!

  124. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 12:58 pm  

    Sid,

    “Multiculturalism has a lot to answer for, for creating and upholding bantustans full of dislocated cretins…in the midst of England”

    This is quite true and a major cause of issues such as the above and also the ongoing debate around things like intercommunal violence in the UK, where the fragmentation of society into several ethnic factions is clearly evident and not a far cry from “balkanization” when one looks at things ‘on the street’.

    Whilst Tony Blair (the favourite political character for all on this forum) may well have mentioned in his speech of November 2006 that “belief in democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country and its shared heritage” bring all Brits together, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that even the first three or four points of that statement are hardly agreed upon or lived out by simply observing some of the comments that get aired here.

  125. fugstar — on 19th March, 2008 at 1:00 pm  

    who is holding up victimhood and despising the indigenati?

  126. Ashik — on 19th March, 2008 at 4:32 pm  

    Sid, the UK’s lax immigration system has much on it’s conscious when we see immigrants like you trooping into our country ready with their third world ethnic frictions & exclusions, worn political ideologies from the seventies and a childlike reluctance to face the fact that they’ve entered the UK of their own free will. Stop trying to recreate Bangladesh in the UK. You can tell where DP is going by the age/demographics of your group. Attendance by old Dhakaiya people intermixed with student types with limited leave to remain in the UK. If Immigration did a raid, how many would they apprehend?

    It is the height of arrogance to think you can change human rights culture in Bangladesh while living comfortably here in Blighty. The very same BD you fled. Champaign socialism BD does not need.

  127. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 4:51 pm  

    Ashik,

    I haven’t fled anywhere, I’m a double passport person. I’m equally comfortable in both countries. Although I’ve been here for most of my life, I’ve grown increasingly impatient with whiney Sylheties who feel threatened by people who have arrived after them and trounce them in all aspects of life here, from jobs, to incomes, to housing to assimiliation WITHOUT RELYING ON STATE HANDOUTS while disparaging the hand that feeds them which is what the sylheti community is famous for – if you ask anyone who knows half of what is going on. I also find it pathetic that you should be worrying about people who have come after the Sylhetis when we know that most of your income as an immigration lawyer is used for bringing over spouses and sponsored guests from Sylhet who continue to stream into this country and live in communes that are approximations of their Mulibazar habitats.

  128. Muhamad [peace be upon me] Lodhi — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:05 pm  

    Sonia @ 54
    That’s partly to do with certain individuals’ certain fetish, namely, skin colour. :-)

    deep singh @ 59
    As an undergraduate, I used to see the Hindus, the Sikhs, and the Muslims, all glued to their own. I couldn’t be bothered with it.
    Culture is culture, it’s a lot of twaddle to talk of a ‘subculture.’ If one really cares to think about it, all cultures are bastard cultures.

    Roohi @ 65 & 75
    I asked a question, drawn from the middle of his book, and I asked someone to help me to ascertain whether what I read was correct. How is that stupid? Have you bothered to read what I said? Evidently not, from what you say @ 75. You moron!
    And if my friend Lucy didn’t borrow the book, I’d give you the page no.

    Some Bengalis on here seem to talk a load of crap. You are all a stereotype of a stereotype! :-) Never come across such a generalised load of crap.

  129. Kahn — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:08 pm  

    what happened to the interesting debate about mixed relationships? I have been going out with a ‘gora’ for about years now and my parents have no idea. They would be gutted if they knew. They would go on and on about my children having no culture, identity or even the language. My folks pretend that being muslim is the big issue but if I bought home the gora home, it would be a hideous showdown. I think it is not necessarily a class issue either – it is ingrained predjudice by first generation immigrants towards their second generation kids.

  130. Kahn — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:09 pm  

    what happened to the interesting debate about mixed relationships? I have been going out with a ‘gora’ for about years now and my parents have no idea. They would be gutted if they knew. They would go on and on about my children having no culture, identity or even the language. My folks pretend that being muslim is the big issue but if I bought home the gora home, it would be a hideous showdown.

  131. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:10 pm  

    The only stereotype I’ve ever liked is the John Inman character on Are You Being Served.

  132. Ashik — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:18 pm  

    Who better than me to point to the failings of the migration process, eh Sid?

    Do you think I only work with Sylhetis? lol
    I’ve had ppl seeking advice from Dhanmondi to Halishohor!
    Paved with gold are the streets of London!

    The days when you Dhakaiya immigrants could use Rule 57 (student entry clearance) to fraudulently gain entry to the UK is fast coming to a halt, gramps. The new points system and curtailment of appeal rights that’s coming into play next month is brill. IELTS or no IELTS, your ppls ass will remain in BD where you lot can do freshie violent (and irrelevant) politics to your hearts content..

    We Sylhetis don’t need lessons on assimilation from the Dhakaiya immigrant underworld who come in as students and then go on to graduate at flipping burgers at Burger King. Neither do we need faux ‘cultured’ people mired in recreating an artificial cultural history. Go down Stepney Green one fine day, you’ll find most of the waiters speaking Dhakaiya. They’re even buying out Sylhetis who are now moving from the area. Sid, you’re living a time warp.

    See, Fug might be an Islamist but he has it right when he talks about irrelevant BD symbolism re: language/culture. That’s why the Islamists are on the march in BD. At least they address ppls real needs without reminiscing about 1971.

  133. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:27 pm  

    Ashik, you’re boring me to tears now all of them are on your behalf. You like that because you’re a victim. Live long and prosper in Victimhood ghetto. Goodnight and don’t let Drishtipat scare the shit out of you – its only a Human Rights awareness group, not the Home Office.

  134. Ashik — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:30 pm  

    Is opposition to inter-racial marriage so wrong when factors like faith, class, financial standing and looks generally tend to be regarded as acceptable criteria when choosing a mate?

  135. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:51 pm  

    Muhammad,

    “As an undergraduate, I used to see the Hindus, the Sikhs, and the Muslims, all glued to their own. I couldn’t be bothered with it”

    Precisely – yet these individuals are more than happy to consider themselves ‘progressive’.

    “Culture is culture, it’s a lot of twaddle to talk of a ’subculture.’ If one really cares to think about it, all cultures are bastard cultures.”

    This is going to be long unfortunately, however I am not using the term ‘bastardised subculture’ to sound snooty about any meeting of ideas or notions as it seems you have read it.

    The reference to ‘subculture’ above explicitly refers to the very real and apparent trend amongst 2nd generation British Born individuals of various ethnic minorities, who typically cannot:

    (a) fluently read, write or speak the language of their country/community of origin;

    (b) known very little, save for largely orientalist imagining of their culture of origin and;

    (c) typically regard anyone coming directly from their country of origin, whether that person be more ‘educated’ and ‘accomplished’ than they are or a ‘pendoo’ (fig. ‘village idiot’) as a “freshie” (something that be evidenced in this thread even).

    etc etc…

    As such, these individuals have consiciously broken off ties to their country and culture of origin, however, they simultaneously will typically engage in the following behaviours:

    (i) limiting social interaction to others like themselves (i.e. same ethnicity, but not ‘freshies’ and certainly not with ‘white people’ or ‘others’)

    (ii) develop not only a form of slang that becomes unique to their subculture (the infamous ‘innit’ being a classic cliched example here), but also an ‘accent’ to their English, which whilst no resembling the ‘freshie’ accent of their older generations, is distinguishably different to that of the host community’s many existing accents, further confirming their chosen self-imposed exclusion from integrating with anyone outside their subculture group (as per (i) above).

    etc etc…

    I’m sure most get the idea and how this results in effectively ghettoised communities even within middle class suburban landscapes, where whilst Mummy and Daddy will pay for everything including the new BMW for ones 18th Birthday, one is still a ‘gangsta’ from the ‘hood’ and is suffering from some imagined ‘white’ oppression or is a ‘turf war’ with other similar groups to their own.

    In the end, these subcultures are a result of multiculturalism in the UK failing to adequately capture pluralism and simply allowing for trends such as that above to perpetuate whilst they hide behind hyped terms such as “British-Asians” or “Black-British”.

  136. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:58 pm  

    hey Deep, I’m in total agreement with you on every point there.

  137. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 5:59 pm  

    “Is opposition to inter-racial marriage so wrong when factors like faith, class, financial standing and looks generally tend to be regarded as acceptable criteria when choosing a mate?”

    Ashik,

    Just to clarify, are you aligning discrimination based solely on one’s race with choice based on subjective issues such as physical attractiveness?

  138. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:08 pm  

    Ashik, what’s better:

    Flipping burgers

    Or

    Benefit fraud which gets you free housing, and livcing on Income benefits and doctored child records for fraudulent child benefit claims? Followed by hatred of the “Ingraz”?

  139. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:22 pm  

    Leon @ 9:

    “I should be clear my closing comment was speaking generally about others, not specifically about myself!”

    Buddy, I know, wasn’t intending to make out otherwise, sorry if it read that way!

  140. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:25 pm  

    I asked a question, drawn from the middle of his book, and I asked someone to help me to ascertain whether what I read was correct. How is that stupid? Have you bothered to read what I said? Evidently not, from what you say @ 75. You moron!

    Oh shove it down your windpipe you pompous cretin.

    Only a moron could think his book had anything to do with him being gay.

    I blow a raspberry in your ugly face.

  141. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:28 pm  

    In the end, these subcultures are a result of multiculturalism in the UK failing to adequately capture pluralism and simply allowing for trends such as that above to perpetuate whilst they hide behind hyped terms such as “British-Asians” or “Black-British”.

    No. Asian and Black people will always gravitate to other Asian and Black people because of common experience. State multiculturalism has little to do with that. The forms that Asian and Black people’s gravitation to each other take vary. You write about it negatively. I think it’s just natural. Otherwise, why are you writing on a blog concerened with ‘ethnic minority issues’?

  142. douglas clark — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:45 pm  

    I would be delighted if a woman took an interest in me….

    Which I’d have thought was the issue, beyond multi culturalism.

    Anyway. What do I know.

  143. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:51 pm  

    I don’t think you’ll have to worry about that happening anytime soon Douglas.

  144. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:55 pm  

    Roohi, Sanghera’s book is autobiographial amd talks about being gay as a window. You must be gutted.

  145. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:57 pm  

    Gutted about what Sidney?

  146. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:59 pm  

    being a congenital twat, muzumdar.

  147. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 6:59 pm  

    Roohi wrote:

    “No. Asian and Black people will always gravitate to other Asian and Black people because of common experience.”

    Agreed, however this is not what I am commenting upon in the above – perhaps re-read my post.

    “State multiculturalism has little to do with that”

    I never said it did – I am talking explicitly about the second generation of ethnic minorites (not necessarily limited to Asians and Black people) who have, as part of their self-defined subculture, selected to isolate themselves into their middle-class suburban ‘ghettos’.

    “The forms that Asian and Black people’s gravitation to each other take vary. You write about it negatively. I think it’s just natural.”

    I am not speaking against Asian or Black people having their individual communities or sharing a feeling of common culture based on their language, country of origin, religion or socio-political events that may have shaped them – these issues are not what results in these communities isolating themselves and actively seeking not to engage with ‘white folk’ or with others of similar racial or cultural background because they are ‘freshies’.

    What is so “natural” about a 2nd generation British Born individual whose country of origin is “X” and mother tongue is “X-lish”, yet he cannot speak it and despite being born and raised in the UK, he speaks English as if he was born in the Bronx, whilst he considers those from country ‘X’ to be freshies, he regards the “gora” to be depraved with whom he should not associate since it is not ‘traditional’, hence he seeks only others like himself (i.e. 2nd generation, non-freshie, white-hating descents from country X) and talks of being ‘progressive’ and a ‘British Asian/Black British etc’?

  148. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:01 pm  

    Sid, I have no idea what you’re talking about. But you seem to be mistaking me for someone else. Perhaps you could ask one of the owners of the site to check my IP address and cross reference it with the person you think I am in order to confirm you are being paranoid.

    And in the meantime, whilst calling other people misogynist, understand that calling a woman a ‘twat’ is mysoginistic too.

    Nice way to greet someone who just started commenting yesterday by the way!

  149. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:07 pm  

    What is so “natural” about a 2nd generation British Born individual whose country of origin is “X” and mother tongue is “X-lish”, yet he cannot speak it and despite being born and raised in the UK, he speaks English as if he was born in the Bronx, whilst he considers those from country ‘X’ to be freshies, he regards the “gora” to be depraved with whom he should not associate since it is not ‘traditional’, hence he seeks only others like himself (i.e. 2nd generation, non-freshie, white-hating descents from country X) and talks of being ‘progressive’ and a ‘British Asian/Black British etc’?

    Talking like they’re from the Bronx is just the way that British youth of every race speak these days, with their hip-hop aspirations. I don’t have a problem with the specific examples you make, those people definitely exist, but there are narrow minded people everywhere. Not everybody can move in the same direction together and there will always be thickos.

    I see cultural affinity as a positive thing. Culture is dynamic and all that, but I’d hate to see the day in which collective peoples are so assimilated that they don’t exist anymore.

  150. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:08 pm  

    Sorry Roohi, I’ve mistook you for a troll and nutter who used to call me Sydney and wrote unhinged stuff like in #140. Apologies if you’re not and for calling you a rude name.

  151. Roohi — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:10 pm  

    No problem Sid. EAsy mistake to make I shouldn’t have been so informal and cheeky.

  152. fugstar — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:25 pm  

    “trounce them in all aspects of life here, from jobs, to incomes, to housing to assimiliation WITHOUT RELYING ON STATE HANDOUTS”

    Not really sure thats a true picture … sounds a bit ahistorical and falsely triumphant. Besides, you can keep your assimilation.

    maybe you need an extra tick box on your census form.

  153. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:26 pm  

    I agree with what Deep has to say in #135 but I think the problem of multiculturalism and the balkanisation of social groups goes beyond just youth culture. In the end it has inculctaed the Bangladeshi community here with a narrow insular outlook and a culture of mediocrity. It says “stay in your extended families, build mosques only for bangladeshi men, we’ll translate all the material for you into bengali, there’s no need for your wives to work, your daughters needn’t go into further education if your culture doesn’t require (sic) it, create TV stations just for your own community, don’t bother to integrate, you’re fine being what you are”. And the result is generation after generation of insular, ghettofied communities filled with insular suspicious people. It’s depressingly tragic.

  154. Sid — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:30 pm  

    fugoostar, if you’re going to insist that the Bangladeshi Sylheti community in the UK hasn’t been deeply associated with a venal culture of docile acceptance of state benefits then you’re either lying or you’re deeply ignorant.

  155. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:33 pm  

    “I see cultural affinity as a positive thing. Culture is dynamic and all that, but I’d hate to see the day in which collective peoples are so assimilated that they don’t exist anymore.”

    Roohi,

    I agree and in no way trying to support the notion of a ‘mono’culture and have voiced my concerns over ‘assimilation’ (as opposed to ‘integration’) elsewhere on this forum.

    Even leaving aside the ‘hip hop’ aspirations aside, much of what I said can also be applied to those who may not necessarily adopt the ‘gangsta-rapper’ mannerisms, however are totally guilty of leading a life in which they gather under the “British Asians” or “Black British” titles yet choose to associate solely with other brown or black people who are deemed not to be ‘freshies’ and not ‘coconut’ sell-outs.

  156. deep singh — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:37 pm  

    “And the result is generation after generation of insular, ghettofied communities filled with insular suspicious people. It’s depressingly tragic.”

    Sid,

    You are correct in the examples you give – I recall upon my first visit to East London during the 1990s meeting a man who proudly told me “it’s great here, I live exactly like I did back home, one can hardly tell its in England”.

    Some may feel that type of thinking to be fine, however I cannot help but sense a terrible concern about its implications.

  157. fugstar — on 19th March, 2008 at 7:44 pm  

    There are many white people who dont honour the welfare state. Self sufficiency is coming though and i think thats a hopeful thing. What i fail to understand is your resentment and bitterness.

    Other than being beaten up and humiliated by sylhetti youth in brick lane in front of women, has no ‘good’ example of The Sylatian Stallion ever graced your life? Did a maulana kick over your sand castle when you were small… because you really sound like damaged goods.

    Given what you’ve just dissentaried all over this thread with all the prejudiced and twisted generalisation of the baniya class…. you should be ashamed and go back to your own stereotype… of being a scribe for the britishers.

    progressive generation your own brown arse.

  158. Muhamad Lodhi — on 19th March, 2008 at 8:11 pm  

    I don’t give £**^ about who you are, I think you’ve understood bugger all about Sanghera’s account and bugger all about what I asked.
    Sid seems to have understood something.
    Again, you seem to be bent on crediting me with something I didn’t say. I didn’t say his book is all about him being gay. His book is multifaceted, and you don’t need to be a Sikh (or have parents from Punjab) to relate to it. I’ve read his TimesOnline articles, and I believe he does have a humour.

    Le crétin est dérivé du Chrétien. As far as I know.

    Eons of zemindar inbreeding has taken its toll, so, yes, I might be comparatively ugly, but, unless you already know, you can’t be too sure until you have a face to face encounter. In doing so, you’ll give yourself up for scrutiny. Are you up for that? How ugly are? Are you, too, the result of Indian inbreeding? :-)

  159. Muhamad Lodhi — on 19th March, 2008 at 9:15 pm  

    deep singh @ 135
    Yes, I agree with you on some things.

    (a) this isn’t specifically an “Asian” or “Black”, etc, issue. I know people in the public sector who deal with such issues in exclusively “White” localities, e.g., some places in Cornwall. Fluency seems to be lacking in our monosyllabic culture. (“Am I bovvered”, to wit Blair from a show). Soon, our fluency might be like the Khoisan speakers.

    (b) again, ignorance of our history, be it that of the Indian subcontinent, African, Afro-Caribbean, Middle Eastern, British, etc, is something we all share to some degree. It’s unfortunate.

    (c) limiting our interaction with people from different backgrounds is at a loss to ourselves. One of the things I find intolerable (as does Sanghera) is that Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Punjabis, Uttar Pradeshis, Bengalis, seem to stick with their own. Various other groups are also guilty of doing this.
    My view is that we must participate in every sphere of British life, and, if you want to do business, you can’t just sell it to the “Asians”, if adopt such an attitude, you’ll be shooting yourself in the foot.

    Excuse my poor English. :-)

  160. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 12:58 am  

    Fugstar, It takes more than being accosted by a mouthy smackhead on Brick Lane to make me bitter and resentful. Come on, you have to admit that there are some serious problems in the deshi community in the UK about which Deep Singh rightly says should provoke “terrible concern about its implications”.

    Multiculturalism tells you to accuse it’s critics of racism or prejudice. This is why you’re attacking me and speculating some kind of personal resentment and hatred of Sylhetis and Islam. Multiculturalism tells you to attack me as some kind of imperialist (“scribe for the britishers”). These ploys are old hat now and well beyond their sell by date. I’m not speaking with any bitterness but more from sadness. Bangladeshi kids can be the brightest kids on the block but they’re being let down by shitty schools and poor judgement. Instead of attacking “Dhakaiyas” perhaps you should be building alliances and making things better. I don’t believe this can be done by the low-achievement ghettostans, and insularisation from the mainstream. Embrace flux like your migratory forebears did.

  161. Tallandy — on 20th March, 2008 at 8:54 am  

    If there are people out there genuinely interested in dealing with the issues surrounding mixed relationships, or would like to get involved with publicising the issues, please visit http://www.mixtogether.org

    We are there to support people who face family pressure against their relationships. The site is growing steadily and other organisations are coming on board to support us, recently featured on BBC Your News, and with support from Karma Nirvana project also.

    We need people to come forward and stand up for their relationships..!!

  162. Ashik — on 20th March, 2008 at 9:19 am  

    The future belongs to 2nd/3rd generationers.

    The most ironic thing is that the offspring of those oh-so educated, liberal and all-embracing pseudo cultural freshie types who nevertheless carry their baggage from ‘back home’ will actually develop into 2nd/3rd generation individuals who move past the decaying and stilted culture/language of their parents generation and embrace a fusion of cultures. For instance, I can’t imagine Sid’s teenage children enthusiastically wantng to attend Bangladeshi politicised cultural events, especially as like us Sylhetis, English will be their mother tongue. This is why DP events tend to only attract old Bengalis and new immigrants. The offspring will not care about Mujib/Zia feudal idol politics.

    This is why I point out that Sylheti rap artistes and Sylheti Islamic English nasheed singers actually show that by integrating on their own terms young Sylhetis and other communities actually embrace other art forms in a way first generationers cannot. Exchange of ideas cannot take place when people are trying to recreate desh in the UK. These first generationers on this forum are searching for an identity. Just as our forefathers did when they came over in the 50’s and 60’s.

  163. Ashik — on 20th March, 2008 at 9:27 am  

    Within the Bangladeshi community the few Dhakaiyas born and bought up in the UK actually have more in common with us Brit born Sylheti than first generation immigrants from Dhaka. Hence the reason most Bangladeshis my age/generation whether Sylheti or Dhakaiya don’t want to marry particularly from ‘back home’. Peopke from back their have a certain .mentality’ and emotional immaturity amongst other factors eg. they go ga-ga when they first see a women wearing a skirt in the UK, whereas we don’t bat an eye lid.

    Ironically the few Sylheti-Dhakaiya marriages that do take place in the UK in my experience are between Sylheties and Dhakaiyas whose families insist that they marry other Bengalis but are keenly aware that 90% of Bengalis in the UK are Sylheti. Better a Sylheti Bengali Muslim than a white person I guess is their thinking.

  164. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 10:17 am  

    Too Frightening to listen to a stranger
    Too Beautiful to put your pride in danger
    You’re waiting for someone to understand you
    But you’ve got demons in your closet
    And you’re screaming out to stop it
    Saying life’s begun to cheat you
    Friends are out to beat you
    Grab on to what you scramble for

  165. fugstar — on 20th March, 2008 at 11:02 am  

    id attack you and annihilate you (discursively) for being amongst the most pitiful of creatures. The professed muslim, who believes in secularism. that has nothing do with wherever you think you are from. I enjoy the jibes you get from the ganj because they remove that sheeps clothing you wear.

    that is independent of the 1990s where the stone roses the manics and alija itzetbegovic were more influential on my generation, on people like me than any stupid regurgitated pap you just spout.

    ashik dont worry, sid’s kind will erm… have low birthrates.

  166. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 11:25 am  

    Muslims are in the doldrums because of intellectual weaklings like you who can’t stomach discussion, freedom of expression.

    Young fogies likeyou have only one card to play – the blame card. You’re befuddled by out-of-date and out-of-synch ideas like the universal culpability of colonialism and Pan-Arabism which are based on hard-left Stalinism which from the wrong side of the ideological binoculars you view the world from thinks it makes you a brave conservative traditionalist. Butyou’re not. You’re mired in ideas of the past and you think you’re the future. Thats rubbish; you’re older than your grandparents prehistoric post-colonialial axe-wielding single-issue politics. And you’re shackled by the post-modernist culture of medicority that is multiculturalism.

    You’re holding us back mate.

  167. Tallandy — on 20th March, 2008 at 11:48 am  

    Find Mixtogether on Facebook also… :)

  168. deep singh — on 20th March, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

    Ashik,

    Whilst I wait for you to clarify your position as per my question at 137, in the interim, I will seek to offer an alternative view to the above based loosely on what I think you are trying to suggest:

    Your premise appears to be, in a nut shell: ‘People, or their parents/friends/siblings, select/recommend partners based on variety of factors, some of which amount to subjectives items such as shared ideas, values, lifestyle etc’.

    On the basis of this, is it wrong to necessarily want to have a partner of the same ‘race, colour, caste, creed, religion, nationality etc’.

    My honest answer would be a resounding ‘no’ – since many of the above subjective factors are “extrinsically” linked to one’s race, religion, etc etc, hence can for some be an important part of decision in choosing a spouse.

    However, that is not the question being posed in the main article, which fundamentally works on the basis that an individual’s race in of itself doesn’t necessarily ‘intrinsically’ give insight to the factors one may genuinely consider when seeking a spouse, hence in the example scenarion provided by Samira Ahmed of Channel 4 News fame, the question really boils down to one of racism.

  169. Ashik — on 20th March, 2008 at 2:53 pm  

    My post means what it says.
    Individuals consciously choose partners based on looks, wealth, class, language & faith etc. This is reality as you admit. Therefore, I don’t see any reason to highlight the racial factor as being necessarily racist.

    A persons racial closely allied to cultural character does give rise to certain traits in the main if not individually eg. South Asians are more family conscious.

  170. deep singh — on 20th March, 2008 at 3:31 pm  

    “A persons racial closely allied to cultural character does give rise to certain traits in the main if not individually eg. South Asians are more family conscious.”

    Yes, that is the case, however as I mentioned above, only extrinsically and does not always need to apply. There are plenty of South Asians who make not particularly be “more family conscious” as you put (there is even a thread on this forum indicating as such – see Extended Family discussions), in which case insistence that someone marry/date within their own racial, cultural group is amounting to discrimination based solely on the colour of one’s skin.

  171. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 3:41 pm  

    ” if you’re going to insist that the Bangladeshi Sylheti community in the UK hasn’t been deeply associated with a venal culture of docile acceptance of state benefits then you’re either lying or you’re deeply ignorant”

    no more or no less than other low income communities in the UK.

  172. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 3:50 pm  

    “it’s great here, I live exactly like I did back home, one can hardly tell its in England”.

    I can think of many expatriate enclaves in Bangladesh, India, Angola where expatriats live exactly like they do back home – protected from the poverty and difficult living conditions majority of people in those countries live in – no-one bats an eye lid or says they are insular. These expatriates probably have more means and resources to avoid being insular , but choose to stay in these compounds etc.

    I don’t bat an eye lid at their preference, and neither do I bat an eye lid if my mother didn’t learn to speak English and lives in East London and finds comfort from seeing lots of other Bangladeshis as neighbours and a support system arising from it – in a country that is difficult to be in if you’re an immigrant – and barely living above the official poverty line.

  173. fugstar — on 20th March, 2008 at 4:27 pm  

    ‘its you thats holding us back’

    finally, this is the lyric that typifies your kind and what i am glad that i have clear now. you really shouldnt project your own issues onto other people you know.

  174. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 4:31 pm  

    That sentiment should be redirected to yourself since you went to a public school but are happy to see generations of people you regard as your community fester in inner city shit holes.

  175. fugstar — on 20th March, 2008 at 4:36 pm  

    i sure am sad to see you festering.

  176. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 4:39 pm  

    abolition of impact.

  177. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:05 pm  

    I really like festering in inner city shit holes, did me no harm, but might not choose it for my kids, but it was the best education received.

  178. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:11 pm  

    fester – verb
    1. to form pus; generate purulent matter; suppurate.
    2. to cause ulceration, as a foreign body in the flesh.
    3. to putrefy or rot.
    4. to rankle, as a feeling of resentment.

    Maybe fester isn’t a good word to describe anyone – especially coming from someone who is normally quite nice…

  179. Ruzi — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:14 pm  

    I dont see why any immigrant groups be they sylheti or pakistani or whatever should live lifestyles according to other peoples values. People are comfortable in their own choices then leave them to it.

    Immigrant groups generally tend to have problems in the first generation. poverty, educational achievement, these issues can be attributed to many communities including in parts of Bangladesh like dhaka.

  180. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:19 pm  

    Going back to the original thread …

    I think people do generally settle with partners who are more like them – than not. Are we getting more like our parents? No – just happens when we get older , and old age comes with more conformity and conservatism – and going for tradition – what was that saying about conservatism and ethics – ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ because you don’t know what you get with the replacement.

  181. halima — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:27 pm  

    ‘The future belongs to 2nd/3rd generationers’

    True -but these generations may also prefer attending discussions about feudal politics in Bangladesh as they do about feudal politics in Nepal – why not? The world should be more interested in Bangladesh because there’s so much to learn from it – getting a global perspective is important for the future generations, world being inter-connected and all that…

  182. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:30 pm  

    halima, I’m all for more feisty inner city ‘deshi women with broad outlooks doing good.

  183. fugstar — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:42 pm  

    spoken like the boris/steven norris that you secretly are.

  184. Sid — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:47 pm  

    who’s boris/steven?

  185. deep singh — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:49 pm  

    Ruzi,

    “I dont see why any immigrant groups be they sylheti or pakistani or whatever should live lifestyles according to other peoples values. People are comfortable in their own choices then leave them to it.”

    I hear what you’re saying, however can’t see where anyone is prescribing a requisite lifestyle choices for immigrants, the question concerns a simple case of say a 2nd generation ‘British Asian’ who chooses say, as in the case of Sathnam Sanghera to have a relationship with a white person, why should this be perceived as something wrong?

    I believe I have incorporated your views within my comments at 168 and 170.

  186. Ruzi — on 20th March, 2008 at 5:55 pm  

    Deep singh,

    I agree totally with that. But then i emphasise that people who prefer that to marry in their own community like most people do are fine as well. people from minority backgrounds like bangalis and indians and pakistanis have added burden of being a minority.

  187. deep singh — on 20th March, 2008 at 6:10 pm  

    “But then i emphasise that people who prefer that to marry in their own community like most people do are fine as well”

    Absolutely agree, however that this is not the question that Samira Ahmed has posed.

  188. sonia — on 22nd March, 2008 at 11:51 pm  

    perhaps you should be building alliances and making things better. I don’t believe this can be done by the low-achievement ghettostans, and insularisation from the mainstream. Embrace flux like your migratory forebears did.

    well said Sid.

    its ridiculous the kind of stuff that has come out on this thread, some of it pure BNP style self-righteous crap, {really some people do hide behind a brown skin!anything else they’d be called Racists with some of the attitudes displayed. “I got here before you did so i can say this about you’

    just passing on the buck? do they think they have to pass comments because someone back in the day insulted their parents as being ‘fresh off the boat’ when they got here? are they ashamed of the fact that their mothers didn’t speak English or spoke it with a ‘freshie’ accent hmm? that they insisted on wearing saris?

    Perhaps that’s why they rejoice at the thought of being able to be the ones doing the sneering for a change and passing it on. That is so pathetic, because it is really is sad. because There seems to be such an element of being ashamed of what their own parents/grandparents were, immigrants, that is really what is sad. Some of the things Ashik said, about people in Bangladesh wanting to come here – yes Ashik, they do, do you feel proud because you are never going to have to be in that position because you were born with that much desired British passport? and that you don’t have to grovel for it? Good for you, I suppose someone once spat at your Mother/Grandmother on the street for wanting to come here from wherever, so you pass that disdain on do you? You think well i was born here, so no one can tell me what they told my mother. in fact ill go one better and tell other people. Do you think that is an admirable attitude? ‘oh my parents/grandparents were immigrants, but that was fine. its new immigrants i can’t stand, because they speak with freshie accents. Perhaps because they remind me of my own roots?’.

    the irony. no wonder you seem to have it in for ‘white people’. you just can’t stand to be reminded you didn’t lord it out here for centuries i suppose?

  189. Sid — on 22nd March, 2008 at 11:58 pm  

    powerful sonia, powerful…

  190. Sunny — on 23rd March, 2008 at 2:42 am  

    sonia, that was what they call in wrestling a brutal smackdown. Or at least I think they do because I never watch it. Either way, well said.

  191. halima — on 23rd March, 2008 at 6:50 am  

    well said, sonia, the bits I understand anyway!

    But out of curiosity – what does the world have against insularity?

    But just to accept that mixing with the mainstream – whatever the mainstream is, no-one has told me what it is yet – isn’t good enough.

    But I agree with your point that the stuff that comes out of pickled p is terribly reactionary.

    Just to be clear – I don’t think i have it in for anyone, but do have views from growing up in the inner city which sometimes are different to mates who have grown up in surburbia. I take it for granted that these differences, which sometimes need negotiating, are a natural way of life. People in surburbia (like folks in inner cities) can also be incredibly insular, it’s just harder to discern because it’s difficult to tell a friend who speaks 5 European languages that they might be insular!

    A lot of my friends think they are terribly broad-minded – particulary coz they’ve travelled the world, have been protesting in demos since they’ve been in nappies, and read a lot. But it seems they never notice when they slip into general disdain of poor people…

  192. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 9:57 am  

    So is it wrong for someone to like folks from backgrounds similar to their own? Say I am a Desi women, and I happen to like Desi men. Am I being narrow-minded?

  193. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 10:01 am  

    Dear Samira,

    “but why so many educated smart second generation Asians — men and women lie to their parents about dating white people.”

    It’s not only dating white people, but that goes for black people, Hispanic people, and even Desi folks who are not “suitable.” Actually, back in my day, dating was a NO NO, no matter if the guy was a Desi or not (but probably far worse for the parents if the guy wasN’t Desi).

  194. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 10:23 am  

    Whether one considers oneself ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’, resides in the ‘inner city’ or suburbia’ (however defined) Islam forbids marriage between a believing women and a non-Muslim man. Such unions are not recognised and the offspring of such a union are illegitimate in Islam. Of course this matters little to some, and that’s fine. Individual choice and all. However, if one is outside Islam, they comment on Islam as a non-believer consciously have left the fold of Islam. Logical, no?

  195. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 10:40 am  

    ‘True -but these generations may also prefer attending discussions about feudal politics in Bangladesh as they do about feudal politics in Nepal’ – why not?

    Halima, you know full well as a Bengali, immigrants who set up Bangladeshi political groups centred on Bangladeshi party politics (as oppozsed to Brit Bengali social networking groups like Brit Bangla) in the UK are widely dispised as being reactionary, frshie troublemakers.

    They ALWAYS have hidden alliegences to the AL/BNP back in desh. They were ‘political’ back ‘home’ too. In the case of the two ‘suburban’ ‘liberals’ on this forum, it is the AL.

    ps. DP MEMBERS ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE VIOLENT POLITICAL STRIKES (HARTALS) IN BANGLADESH WHILE LIVING COMFORTABLY IN THE UK. ANOTHER MARK OF THEIR ‘BROAD-MINDED’, ‘COSMOPOLITAN’ UPBRINGING!

  196. Sid — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:01 am  

    “in the UK are widely dispised as being reactionary, frshie troublemakers”

    Making trouble for whom?

    And given your track record of comments on this forum, including those which were so despicable they had to be deleted, do you actually understand what the word ‘reactionary’ means?

  197. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:20 am  

    PP Members:

    I invite you to ask Brit Bengali acquaintances (of whatever generation) what they think of Bengali ppl in the UK who engage in Awami League and BNP politics in the UK.

    (Be prepared for the use of expletives).

  198. Rumbold — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:23 am  

    Ashik:

    “PP Members:

    I invite you to ask Brit Bengali acquaintances (of whatever generation) what they think of Bengali ppl in the UK who engage in Awami League and BNP politics in the UK.

    (Be prepared for the use of expletives).”

    Very well. Sonia and Sid, what do you think of “Bengali ppl in the UK who engage in Awami League and BNP politics in the UK”?

  199. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:34 am  

    Rumbold you highlight the problem. I’m thinking you dont have many representative Bengali friends….

    Hint: In Brtish Bengali/Asian mosques throughout UK they forbid two things inside the mosque: Islamist and Bengali AL/BNP politics…..

  200. Rumbold — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:37 am  

    Some of my best friends are Bengali…

  201. Sid — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:48 am  

    Ashik, continuation of Bangladeshi politics has been the mainstay of the Sylheti community. Pick up any Bangla-language newspaper published in the UK.

    You tend to draw from a limitless reservoir of nonsense. Best to stick to what you know best: yoof culture.

  202. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 11:52 am  

    The fact that Lab. con and Lib Dem are full to brim with Sylhetis involved in mainstream politics, I somehow doubt that.

    It’s Dhakaiyas who mainly go for creating links to ‘home’ thru cultural and political groups because they accept they don’t have much chance within mainstream politics. Sylhetis will seldom vote for a Non-Sylheti candidate in the UK (or in BD for that matter). Reasons? Read this thread.

  203. Sid — on 23rd March, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

    explain to us why either is a bad thing again

  204. halima — on 23rd March, 2008 at 12:15 pm  

    Ashik

    British Bangladeshis are a diverse bunch – they include those that once came from Sylhet extraction and those who came from other parts of Bangladesh. Some do politics in Bangladesh, some do ecology and development in Bangladesh , some don’t even know where Bangladesh is on the map. Basically we can’t generalise much about what British Bangladeshis do much – any more than what British-Canadians do in the UK…

    From what I do know about what happens in the East End of London is that those Brit Bangladeshis who do politics (AL or BNP) tend to also be affiliated to local politics ( Labour, Con or Lib). They have politics in their blood. They are also a minority – the majority of people like me… go out, have fun, and don’t spend all our evenings in committee meetings which is sadly the kind of commitment needed to break it through into politics.

  205. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 12:24 pm  

    Dirty Student BD politics:

    Those Bengalis who are involved in BD party politics in the UK were usually themselves student activists in BD in their youth. In public universities throughout Bangladesh practically every student and academic staff, man or women, is a member of AL or BNP (or smaller parties). A sign of their popularity I hear you say? Hell no.

    Every strata of society has been carved up between AL/BNP. In Bangladesh ALL students have to join political parties for PROTECTION. It’s a racket. Otherwise male students are threatened with violence and females with sexual violence (incidents of rape of rival party members are not unknown). ALL my friends & relatives at Uni in BD are members of AL/BNP. They usually join the student cadres of the party in power because it goes easier on them. They don’t give two shits about ideology. This is one reason Islamism is attractive to some, Islamist parties are marginally more democratic with recruitment. lol

    When some of these ‘student activists’ get in trouble with the police and their party cannot provide protection/immunity (especially during apolitical military rule) some parents who are financially able or get party sponsorship send these guys to study in the UK/US (for the similar reasons why parents send too ‘Westernised’ kids back ‘home’ for marriage). These guys then continue with the same mentality and expectations their ‘love’ for Bangladesh with the same type of politics in the UK.

    This is the politics our oh so ‘liberal’ ‘suburban’ members are dying to establish in the UK. No thanks guys. I’ll take Labour over AL:/BNP any day. And by the poor attendance in your events, I think most Brit Bengalis agree with me on

  206. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 12:38 pm  

    Halima,

    The tribal politics in the UK you allude to were mostly around in the past (especiallyup to the 80′s). As deshi politicians moved thru the ranks in the UK parties they progressively shedded their deshi political skin. The newer generation of Sylhetis have candidates untainted by the deshi feudal party scene like Rushnara Ali and Oliur Rahman (a Union man with PCS links). As you know Sylhetis are around 90% of our lot.

    Nobody has problemds with truely apolitical intellectual events taking place to raise awareness about Bangladesh or to collect money for genuine charitable purposes. However, these organisations are few and far between. A Mr Mohammad Ahmedullah (Brick Lane Circle) sometimes holds these. Contrast, DP goes out to court controvery and has been criticised by BNP Ministers for partisanship.

  207. halima — on 23rd March, 2008 at 12:53 pm  

    Agree Brick Lane Circle is tops, they recently had Mustaq Khan speaking which is great to see – both a fine example of a Bengali academic but with big credentials in governance and development. Could do with more of these circles.

  208. Sid — on 23rd March, 2008 at 1:09 pm  

    Contrast, DP goes out to court controvery and has been criticised by BNP Ministers for partisanship.

    Drishtipat isn’t partisan at all, so I would like you to produce this criticism by BNP Ministers. DP started out in the late 90s when it was critical of Awami League’s human rights record. Sorry to defuse that non-starter.

    Agree, BLC are excellent. DP and Brick Lane Cicrle plan to do joint presentations. Nice to see a group of Bangladeshis not bogged down by this nth generation “Brit-Bangla” nonsense.

  209. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 1:17 pm  

    Dear Samira,

    “Could it be that deep inside, some people secretly agree with their parents that white people are not “good enough”?”

    No. It’s that they are scared shit-less of what a nosey uncle and gossiping auntie who spotted them hand-in-hand might say to their parents.

  210. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 1:19 pm  

    I personally dropped my jaanam’s hand (who was not white, but not Desi) whenever I was in public where there were large numbers of Desis around. Why? Because they want to know WHO he is, WHAT you are doing with him, etc. I was subjected to the most audacious questioning by Desi men whenever I went to buy masala, atta, etc who DID NOT EVEN KNOW MY NAME.

    Mind your own effing business, people!

  211. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 1:22 pm  

    Ashik:

    “PP Members:

    I invite you to ask Brit Bengali acquaintances (of whatever generation) what they think of Bengali ppl in the UK who engage in Awami League and BNP politics in the UK.(Be prepared for the use of expletives).”

    Honestly, who the hell cares? It’s not even a topic of this thread. I mean, I know I have started convos that have veered off course, but at this point, you are just trying to flamebait about some ties between British Bengalis and the Awami League.

  212. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 1:52 pm  

    Where did everyone go? It’s not sleepy time in the UK, is it?

  213. Don — on 23rd March, 2008 at 2:04 pm  

    Lunch?

  214. Katy Newton — on 23rd March, 2008 at 2:53 pm  

    Easter Sunday, man. Everyone’s enjoying their long weekend.

    Apart from me and Don, apparently.

  215. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 3:09 pm  

    “Easter Sunday, man.”

    The heck with Easter. Holi hai!

  216. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 3:11 pm  

    Correction:

    “I personally dropped my jaanam’s hand”

    Dropped my EX jaanam’s hand.

  217. Sunny — on 23rd March, 2008 at 4:17 pm  

    Ashik – your obsession with Drishtipat is annoying the hell out of me. You mention it once more and I’m deleting all comments from you on here henceforth.

  218. Ashik — on 23rd March, 2008 at 4:25 pm  

    What about Sid and Sonias obsession over the years on PP with their party political interpretations of the Liberation War and BD history generally?

    Do as you will.

  219. Desi Italiana — on 23rd March, 2008 at 4:57 pm  

    Blah blah blah, Ashik.

    Now, back to the topic. How many Desi men love Desi women??

  220. sonia — on 23rd March, 2008 at 8:35 pm  

    Yes back to the topic.

    what’s interesting about this thread : is that it reveals a lot about the kind of pressure there is to conform to societal expectations. and a glimpse at some of the kind of views which goes towards influencing so many people lying about what their relationship choices are.

    i think we all know that at the end of the day, people are attracted to other people, and in some cases, it works out, in some cases it doesn’t. regardless of whether we have all the ‘right factors’ in the mix that society approves of or doesn’t. the interesting thing about this thread and the original question was that it was acknowledging the fact that many young asians are not being able to be honest about the relationships they are in – and the question was why.

    i don’t see the question being phrased was that there is a problem about people ‘not mixing’ – i thought the question was about the problem of people not being able to be honest about what they are in effect already doing.

    This is an ongoing issue that is REALLY important i feel – the ability to tell so many untruths to your family – really does not make for healthy individuals or society. I know – i’ve been there! Yes we thought/think it was necessary so we don’t upset family etc. – but it is really playing a role at the end of the day, and it screws you over one way or the other. And all that lying does change you – it does, it makes you think, keeping the peace is better than telling the truth. And that’s a big recipe for disaster.

    and at the end of the day, there’s nothing wrong with wanting something for yourself, if that is marrying someone with the same background, fine, just like it should be the same if its an individual with a ‘different’ background. its an individual choice – but that’s the key thing for me – it should be about the individual’s choice, about them and another individual. it shouldn’t have to be a bloody group -sanctioned activity, and people shouldn’t have to lie/give up something they might otherwise pursue – to keep their social groups happy. it would be nice if we could all just be loved for ourselves..wouldn’t it..?

    What would be interesting – as a tangent – would be to perhaps discuss what people think about anti-”miscegenation” laws. Alabama only got rid of them very recently – isn’t that right Desi?

  221. sonia — on 23rd March, 2008 at 8:42 pm  

    193 – Desi very good point. I was going to say – for a lot of my friends, it wasn’t – as you say just lying about being in a relationship with the “wrong sort” – it was any relationship full stop – even with the ‘right sort’! everyone simply lied lied and ..lied! i have one friend who managed to marry her boyfriend..by pretending he wasn’t her choice at all! and that is actually much more common than people think.

  222. sonia — on 23rd March, 2008 at 8:52 pm  

    ashik you seem to have a thing against DP – which might be absolute fair enough, but why are you talking about it here? why don’t you go and talk about it on DP, or set up your own anti-DP blog? it’s rather confusing for most of us that you keep bringing it up here.

    204 – Halima – i find your comments insightful ( i have no clue whether what Ashik is saying has much to it at all, being very much an outsider) i also find it amusing that he keeps thinking i have some party political affiliation – dunno why! anyhow back to the point..

  223. Desi Italiana — on 24th March, 2008 at 4:26 am  

    Sonia:

    “and at the end of the day, there’s nothing wrong with wanting something for yourself, if that is marrying someone with the same background, fine, just like it should be the same if its an individual with a ‘different’ background. its an individual choice – but that’s the key thing for me – it should be about the individual’s choice, about them and another individual.”

    I totally agree.

    But families make it freaking hard. I’ve seen people have lots of problems simply because of one set of the parents (or both) disagree about the communion, or treat and see the person of a different background as an “outsider.” It must really suck for couples to have to deal with this.

  224. Desi Italiana — on 24th March, 2008 at 4:33 am  

    Sonia:

    “What would be interesting – as a tangent – would be to perhaps discuss what people think about anti-”miscegenation” laws. Alabama only got rid of them very recently – isn’t that right Desi?”

    I think it was recently.

    More than laws though, I think miscegenation exists in the minds of people as well. Perfect example of people who do this: some Desis. NOTE I say “some,” not all. Though in many cases, Desis tend to think that if the man is a Desi, then somehow this will override the whatever the wife’s background when they have kids, so that somehow, the kids turn out to be “totally” “Desi.” Patriarchy and what not.

  225. Desi Italiana — on 24th March, 2008 at 5:01 am  

    “Ashik – your obsession with Drishtipat is annoying the hell out of me. You mention it once more and I’m deleting all comments from you on here henceforth.”

    I like it when Sunny gets rough.

  226. Desi Italiana — on 24th March, 2008 at 5:02 am  

    “More than laws though, I think miscegenation exists in the minds of people as well.”

    Meant to say that “More than laws though, I think ANTI-miscegenation exists in the minds of people as well.”

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