British Sikh extremists exposed
Tonight is a big night. A documentary on Radio 4 will blow wide open various links between Sikh extremist groups in the UK and worldwide. It will expose groups here and the folly of our politicians who pander to them.
Below is the blurb about the programme. I’m going to post more stuff later on in the day.
Britain has been warned of a new terror threat from Sikh extremists who are forging links with Islamist terror outfits linked to Al Qaida.
The revelation comes after the FBI compiled a Watchlist of American and British-based Sikhs who they believe are agitating for an independent Sikh homeland. Names on the watchlist include US-based Sikh activists who are regular visitors to Pakistan which is believed to be backing the movement for Sikh soveriegnty.
US authorities are concerned that Sikh radicals are being trained alongside Kashmiri militants at mobile terror camps run by the Pakistan secret service the ISI. Most of the main Sikh terror group leaders, who feature on the Indian Government’s Most Wanted lists, are based in Pakistan from where they occassionally deliver fiery speeches to supporters over the internet.
An FBI source said: “Though the Sikh groups are relatively ill-equipped and not very effective in their own right we have evidence to suggest that they have the ability to tap into the resources of pan-Islamist groups like Al Qaida. “The link has been established for a number of years now but recent incidents point to a hardening of these connections.”
He added: “The British authorities have been made aware of our interest in certain individuals residing in the UK who may have connections to Sikh terror groups based in Pakistan.”
Last October six people were killed and 32 injured when a bomb exploded in a packed cinema in Ludhiana in Punjab. According to Punjab Police the alleged mastermind Gurpreet Singh is a Sikh militant who had been trained in Pakistan from where he had smuggled explosives across the border into Punjab.
Dr Ajay Sahni, from the independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi said interrogation of Sikh terror suspects revealed that British Sikh recruits had also visited the training camps. He said: “We are aware that at least about 100 Sikh radical elements, just from Europe and the UK alone, have trained in Pakistan-based terror camps
“The presumption is that they’re training as a reserve to act in India when the opportunity arises.”
He added that Kashmiri militant groups like Lashkar e Toyba (LET), who have established links with Al Qaida, have worked closely with Sikh militants.
He added: “The co-oepartion between the Sikh militants and Al Qaida can only be opportunistic and cannot be a permanent settlement.
“It is only that at this juncture they see a common enemy in India.”
Britain is home to more than 700,000 Sikhs, the vast majority of whom are well-integrated respectable members of the community. The call for an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan, gained momentum in 1984 when the Indian army stormed the Sikh’s holiest shrine the Golden Temple in Amritsar.
There followed a decade-long Sikh insurgency which included bringing down a trans-atlantic airliner which until 9-11 was the single deadliest terrorist attack involving aircraft. In 2001 the Home Office banned two UK-based Sikh organisations, the International Sikh Youth Federation and Babbar Khalsa International, under the Terrorism Act 2000.
The issue of Sikh militancy is explored in a BBC Radio Four File on Four documentary tonight (TUE 26 February) at 8pm
So who are the politcians who pander to them? (Genuine question)
Let’s start with Hazel Blears, who said of the Sikh Federation:
‘May I commend the work of the Sikh Federation (UK), and thank you for all that you do. You have the respect of Government Ministers because of the seriousness and diligence you bring to your work of representing Britain’s Sikh community. In that, you are a model for others to emulate.’
She may regret that final comment at 8pm this evening
I doubt she will AJ.
Sikh federation although loosley connected to ISYF have stepped away from militancy and their main focus is to protect and project the sikh identity in the UK.(like the muslim council of britain does for muslims)
although they still believe in khalistan, their objective in this area is to:
‘To lobby the UK Government to argue the case for the Sikh Nation’s right to self-determination.
To provide information to the UK Government, Members of Parliament and MEPs as to the main reasons why the demands for an independent Sikh State - Khalistan have arisen.
To work with Members of Parliament, MEPs and Sikh organisations in other countries to lobby foreign governments on the Sikh Nation’s right to self-determination and provide information as to why there are demands for Khalistan.’
I am looking forward to this tonight. i have never heard of the al quaeda connection. this pakistan connection with khalistanis is well known though.
p.s just because you believe in khalistan is doesnt mean your a militant psycho bomber!
Hazel Blears, Sayeeda Warsi, Ken Livingstone - all of which have had dealings with these organisations and commended them, without realising their words are being used to pursue a different agenda.
Is the sep. nation possible?
Thanks Sunny for letting us know of the R4 programme.
If it transpires that there is a link between Al-Qaida and some Sikh separatists then it should be righly condemned. And I’m no fan of the separatists who by raising their slogans, did more harm then good vis-a-vie the genuine human rights abuses that occurred for a whole decade from 1984 and 1994. In answer to #5, a separate nation was a dead end. Sikhs have sacrificed so much for a secular India, during the freedom struggle, defending the borders during the series of wars and standing up to dictationship during the Emergency. Why should they then want to leave it and join a religious based state. We are, by definition, a secular people and most Sikhs understand this.
But let’s not be too simplistic in thinking all separatists would go this far and join with Al-Qaida. No doubt, and this is well documented in the study by Joyce Pettigrew in her book, ‘Sikhs of the Punjab: Unheard Voices of State and Guerrilla Violence’ (1995). In it she mentions in particular groups like Babbar Khalsa having links with Pakistan. But on the whole, most of the various groups fighting the Indian state during the 80s and 90s were scornful of Pakistan or Islamist involvement, as they felt being used by the Pakistan intelligence service in the bigger picture of avenging the breakup of East Pakistan.
I’m not sure we know for definitely the Ludhiana Cinema bomb was the work of Sikh militants. Pakistan trained militants and even Hindu extremists link to the Sangh Parivar have also had the finger pointed at them. The Indian police have a tendency to drop into amnesia whenever the terrorist tendency of the latter is mentioned.
‘There followed a decade-long Sikh insurgency which included bringing down a trans-atlantic airliner which until 9-11 was the single deadliest terrorist attack involving aircraft.’
Again, we don’t know for certain whether Sikh militants were involved. The case of two of them fell through in 2005.
Although I don’t dispute the findings of think tanks in India, I do wish they also investigate the role of the Punjab police in setting up these militant groups in the first place. People should familiarise themselves with the work of Ram Narayan Kumar, Amrik Singh, Ashok Agrwaal and Jaskaran Kaur from The Committee for Coordination on Disappearances in Punjab who argued in their study ‘Our own research on Punjab in that period suggested that the state agencies were creating vigilante outfits in order to infiltrate the Sikh radical movement and generate a climate of moral revulsion by engineering heinous crimes which they then attributed to armed Sikh groups.
Who knows. I support [the principle of] self determination but the means to gaining them are another debate…
^ great post, also Jaswant Singh Khalra’s report for which he was murdered by punjab police.
[...] Source. [...]
errm, was it just me or was the programme kinda crap?
seemed liked it was all just hear-say. nothing concrete.
i dunno, i was kinda expecting something more meatier. something to debate etc. half of it had nothing to do with ‘Sikh millitancy’ (e.g the southall gurdwara bit).
there was no proof for a lot of it.
aah well
The Radio 4’s programme just highlights the mess UK Sikh gurdwara are in, the fierce competition over who wins the elections and thus gets control. It’s all back to village politics and raw thuggery more akin to 18th century banditry. I have seen this not only in Southall but far afield as Leeds during last year.
This should be a wake up call to the majority of Sikhs to get their house in order or else end up like ‘he whom should not be named’. Shaheedi funds have always been suspicious and the lack of transparency in temple accounts just lets groups take advantage and misuse funds.
Question is, who is bold enough to call and enforce such transparency? Try getting involved in temple politics and you’ll soon get burnt.
What is imperative is that we keep the campaign to bring closure to the victims of human rights abuses in India as far away as possible from issues such as separatism and temple brawls.
We also need to ask why such issues still find resonance in the community. Is it because the Indian state, its cover-up of the events of 1984, the pogrom and state protection of the abusers which keep such issues and grievances alive, 23 years later. However much states like Pakistan or militant sikhs in the west try to cause trouble, it sinks into comparism with the role hitherto of the Indian state.
The evidence presented in regards to militant Sikh groups linking up with Al-Qaida was very slim. Although there have been cases of groups linking up with Kashmir separatists, which is hardly surprising, on the whole, the two groups operated quite independently.
Excellent report by Amardeep Bassey nonetheless.
Surprise surprise, Another biased, anti sikh documentary made up to please the indian government. I admire how the reporter ‘forgot’ to mention that one of the ‘apostates’ that the sikhs want to get rid is a rapist and a murderer. the CBI has enough evidence to convict the bloke but is prevented by the state.
True Jay,
i mean he came out with so much crap, he could have mentioned the fact KPS Gill killed innocent Sikhs, Beant singh was blown up because he was KPS Gill’s bum chum and took part in the killings.
This is why people like Jagtar Singh Hawara are held in high regard.
I seriously think KPS Gill’s time will come, the biggest terrorist Punjab has seen is walking around scott free. Lets do a docu on that!
On a side note, i would like to see some interviews with people really affected post ‘84.
There have been programmes on what happened in 1984 on the BBC before. This was a separate issue. Although the paranoid defensiveness and denial of some here is only to be expected, slandering reports like this as being anti-Sikh. No, it’s anti-extremism. If you can’t tell the difference, you need to learn the difference.
It’s long overdue that this issue was paid attention to. I am glad that people are waking up to it.
The programme can be listened to here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/fileon4
Let’s do something about it and not baulk when this needs to be said and investigated. Do you really find it unbelievable that money from various guru ka golak’s couldn’t make its way to these sources? I can believe it. This needs to be traced and dealt with.
If the FBI and other agencies are getting involved expect the pulling up of networks and the money trail wherever it is being exposed. It will happen whether you or I or anyone else like it or not.
Overall it is an excellent documentary. The overview it gives of the mess that is some Gurdwara funds is particularly clear.
Income of between £400,000 to £500,000 every year went missing from Southall Gurdwara between 1984 to 1993 when the Khalistanis controlled it.
What this report highlights to me if the urgent need to have Sikhs employed by the Charity Commission and by agencies like the police who are able to identify what is going on in certain Gurdwaras and deal with it. The Charity Commission has teeth and it needs to use them but one of the things it needs to do is be in a position to know what is going on demand transparency and accountancy in certain Gurdwaras. The tools are there in these state institutions to bring rogue elements to heel and prevent misuse of funds. They need to be directed properly and rules have to be systematically enforced and areas of concern identified and this can be done by the Charity Commission employing Sikhs who understand what is going on.
Dal Khalsa UK Press Release
Dal Khalsa UK Condemns the programme aired on BBC Radio 4 as a smear campaign agianst the UK Sikh Coummiunity,this was uncalled for and further alienates the Sikhs in Britain.
Sikhs were compared to Al Qaeda and it was also said Sikhs have made alliances with Al Qaeda,this is a very very dangerous thing to say ,in terms of what the Sikh Community here in the UK and in the world might face,your average American or European will not know the difference between a Sikh and Al qaeda member,but with a Panjab Police officer saying on BBC Radio 4 that Sikhs are with Al Qaeda further increases the risk of Sikhs being attacked and smeared by uneducated people in the Western World.
This programe is in direct response to the UK Sikhs,launching a campaign to Ban the RSS Hindu Terror group and to freeze it funds.This has all been co ordinated by the Indian Govt,Anti Sikh groups in the UK,Biased reporters Sunny Hundal (UK Equivalent of Kim Bolan Canada),and members of the Sikh community such as Himmat Singh Sohi Sri Guru Singh Sabha Southall/Commitee members (Who atteneded RSS Function in Wembley last year,note the programme claimed he attended a Mandir,it was not a Mandir,but a community hall in which Hitler Worshipping members of the RSS were honoured)
The BBC on a number of occasions has been emailed and contacted to cover the RSS campaign but has refused to do so.
While Sikhs talk of banning Hindu terror groups in the UK and freezing their funds & assets ,all of a sudden this programme appears accusing Sikhs of funding terrorism.The programme did not show what the Indian govt is doing nor what the Sikhs believe,instead it was biased and tragedy’s such as Air India bombing ,Ludhiana Cinema Bombings were blamed on Sikhs,who have nothing to do with these atrocities.
Words,quotes and videos were taken out of context to make it seem that Sikhs are terrorists ,and are building terror cells in the UK,Sikhs are not a threat to the UK we live here in peace and are law abiding people.The most worrying part of the programme was comparing Sikhs to Al Qaeda and claiming UK born Sikh get training in Pakistan ,this is 110% untrue and are utter lies by the producers and Panjab Police.Everyone knows how heavily fortified the India Pakistan border is a cat can’t even cross it let alone Sikhs wearing turbans and beards who stand out.
We ask all Sikhs to remain calm and to unite at this time,
there is no doubt that this programme was in direct response to the Ban The RSS campaign,to divert attention from it ,and to blame Sikhs for bombings,terror attacks,and to make Sikhs public enemy number 1 in the British public.While Sikhs in the UK are exposing the RSS for their terrorist activities across the UK,the internet,and at local Gurdwaras mysteriously the Panjab Police and Govt dream up stories of Sikhs funding terror,bombing cinemas ,bombing planes,UK Born Sikhs training in Pakistan,and claim Sikhs who ask for Self Determination /Khalistan are terrorists attacking UK Gurdwara commitees.
Sikh Freedom groups have never killed innocents and have falsely been accused and blamed without any proof,there is no Militant activity in the Panjab,it does not exist /Sikh Freedom rallys in London were made to look like terror meetings in which ‘banned groups’, were involved in,it was made to look like Sikhs are a growing threat to the UK,this is pathetic.
This has all come at such a time when Sikhs in the UK are waking up to reality and the need for Freedom from Indian oppresion,the national/International media have covered this pathetic news story and spread it everywhere,it is up to is now to react in a swift calm manner .
I appeal to all Sikhs in the UK to take a stand against this smear campaign and ask all Sikh groups across the country,to speak out against it,make press releases,and complain to the BBC.
complaint BBC hotline
Phone:
08700 100 222*
email
fileon4@bbc.co.uk
Online feedback form
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file…95924.stm#email
DAL KHALSA UK
———————————————————————————
For those who did not listen to the show here is the link ,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod….?radio4/fileon4
How hilarious to see the incoherent, rambling, stupid, paranoid, slanderous agitation of the Dal Khalsa extremists turn up here and beg for people to complain about a very valid and carefully constructed piece of BBC journalism authored by a Sikh journalist. Complain all you want, you’ll be laughed out of town.
I agree with this Parvinder.
However, I expect that it is a loose affiliation with an organisation like Lashkar-e-Toiba which focuses its attention on jihad in Kashmir, and that on a wider level, Lashkar has become integrated into the al-Qaeda network. These are natural synergies between Lashkar and other terrorist groupings operating in Pakistan. It is a fact that Khalistanis have been sponsored by Pakistan. The level of ‘collaboration’ between Lashkar and other groups is murky, to say the least.
I refer to violent militant Khalistani extremists in the above post. Not those Human Rights groups who legitimately campaign for state accountability during the 1980’s in Punjab. But all this just makes it more urgent that people speak out against this.
At the end of the day, Armadeep Bassey is a typical new breed Asian journalist trying to make a name for himself by sensationalising his Asian background, this is typical for most Asian journalists in western media (what say you Mr Hundal?).
It’s almost laughable that these few Brit Asian journalists make a documentary telling some tall stories that the present day Sikh infrastructure even possess the organisation skills or intelligence of carrying out some kind of terrorist attack. I mean who’s really got the time in between knocking each others turbans off during those great Gurdwara committee election times. There are not enough brain cells between these leaders who currently run the UK Gurdwaras.
I thought the whole Radio 4 programme was nothing more than immature self created propaganda in its most basic sense where over exaggerated information was presented in order to influence the audience. Armadeep Bassey obviously presented facts selectively to give loaded messages in order to produce a hysterical rather than rational response to the information presented.
Was this recorded and is there a link someone could provide where one may listen to the talk.
Thanks,
Deep Singh.
RE: 26,
Sorry - the page wasn’t loaded properly, only the first 2 posts were visible at the time of writing.
Deep, you can listen to the programme using this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/fileon4
I agree with Sukhi, we shouldn’t put our heads in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong with Gurdwara committee and their funds. This is a serious subject and I’m glad the programme brought it out.
On the other hand, there were problems with the programme too. The Sohi story was inaccurate and too much was put into the views of both the Punjab police chief and the Delhi based think tank. It was a tad sensationist but nevertheless this debate needs to be had in a calm and mature way without people calling others Anti-Sikh.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the Dal Khalsa the same organisation that was established by Congress leaders like Zail Singh and Sanjay Gandhi in order to divide the Akali Dal administration?
See dateline: May 1, 1982
http://www.sikhtimes.com/sikhism_timeline.html
WELL DONE SUNNY!
Its about time these extremists got exposed, they are giving the panth a bad name.
i mean look at these extremsit websites, anyone visiting them would think we are jsut liek muslims!
PS : theres an idiot called Sarpanch on sikhsangat websites makin all kinds of silly comments about you personally and the programme itself.
I think websites like saintsoldiers.net, khalistan.net and sikhsangat shud also be exposed, ps the sikh politics section on that site is only visibel when u r a member , thats where a lot of the rubbish is.
I must also add that youngsters are greatly Influenced byt eh propogande posted on youtube anf these sites by monkeys liek sarpanch and militant singh.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
As a member of the Brit Sikh community, I can honestly say we give these journalists a certain amount of ammunition to work with. Putting people like Avtar S Sangera a self appointed “babbar lion” forward as spokesman was one ridiculous move. In the UK, we have had some embarrassing collective representation of Sikh leadership over the last 20 years. Admittedly some have managed to do nothing more than pull out kirpans, pull each others turbans off and manipulate the funds of the golak. Back those backward/unSikh actions with some kind of fabricated motivation for terrorism and the media have got all the material they need to write something hysterical about the Sikh community. To the average white person, you can’t get a more aggressive looking person than a Sikh male with his big turban, long beard and long kirpan. Most people would want to believe that under every Sikh male is a brutal terrorist waiting to come out and it doesn’t help when we Sikhs so easily play into their stereotypes.
I am not arguing the fact that we don’t have corruption within our Gurdwara institutes. I don’t deny we have some nutcase preachers walking around in our community. I don’t deny we have no problems leading our lives in the UK. But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.
Harjinder Singh wrote:
“i mean look at these extremsit websites, anyone visiting them would think we are jsut liek muslims!”
Please could you elucidate what you mean.
Thanks,
Deep Singh.
On a lighter note, will our separatist comrades be prepared to crown Mr Goddard, the next King of the Punjab?
http://www.punjabheritage.org/cultural-heritage/test-reveals-white-debt-collector-from-halifax-is-great-great-grandson-of-last-king-of-the-sikhs-101.html
Quote from article above: Dr Ajay Sahni, from the independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi said interrogation of Sikh terror suspects revealed that British Sikh recruits had also visited the training camps. He said: “We are aware that at least about 100 Sikh radical elements, just from Europe and the UK alone, have trained in Pakistan-based terror camps.
Out of curiosity if you google “Institute of Conflict Management in Delhi” (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/icm/index.html)
you can see it is an organisation set up by, and headed up by, KPS Gill so it’s essentially a mouthpiece for the Punjab police. But the R4 programme failed to mention that.
Pathetic, and laughable. Whenever something comes up that you don’t like, play the race hate card, play the Uncle Tom card. Absolutely laghable and pathetic. Deal with the facts and don’t indulge in brain dead slander.
Parvinder
Let’s separate the two strands.
Everyone knows that there are potential idiots out there who congregate in Lahore and clink glasses of lassi with ISI contacts. That’s a separate thread and if there is evidence for any of that going on anywhere, they need to be not only condemned but routed out of society.
The mismanagement of Gurdwarey is partly a separate issue and the attempt to muscle in on committees, the intimidation and dirty politics has to be addressed. We cannot trust that those disputes are only because of ego and selfish pride. At some level there is an attempt at ideological infiltration. With the Charity Commission there are the tools to deal with this. They can follow the paper trails and they can subject commitees to scrutiny. Anything dodgy happening they have powers all the way to shut-down until houses are put in order. This issue has to be dealt with because most people I speak to have had enough of this nonsense.
‘deal with the facts’
i havent heard any facts. its all hearsay. Random numbers, companies headed by KPS Gill interviews with bogus people.
its ridiculous.
Harjinder why expose khalitani websites? theres no harm in people expressing an opinion on a sikh homeland. these sites are not saying go bomb india are they?
you are full of shit, its certified. you might aswell extract your tongue firmly out of sunnys ass. the problem with the ‘panth’ is nutless fruitcakes like urself who wont stand up for your religion, and will probably land a firm kiss on kps gill’s rear end if u met him.
Sukhi,
In response to your post #35. Apologies for winding you up but when does Mr Bassey and the other ambitious Asian journalists report on the niceties of their ancestral cultural. Very rarely are they commissioned by the pro Western media to express the postivity of Asian cultures, it’s always home in on the honour killings, the threat to terrorism, forced marriages, unhappy Asians.
The IRA has been responsible for more terrorist attacks on British soil, more than any other terrorist organisation however you don’t see contempt and hatred towards White Catholics. Deep down this is really to do with prejudices and racism and I would even go as far as to say jealousies towards an emigrant group who has done rather well socially and economically whilst still maintaining their distinct roots.
Why did Bassey intentionally choose a less articulate spokesperson like Avtar S Sangera, was he purposely made to speak in his broken English as a pose to Punjabi. Interestingly Bassey didn’t embarrass Himmat Sohi by asking him to speak in English? Did Mr Bassey interview some of the more strong articulate voices from the British Sikh Community and choose to drop these as they didn’t support the view he wanted to portray in this documentary?
I accuse BBC radio 4 and Bassey of creating an imaginary threat. The sensationalized allegations are completely unsubstantiated. Allegations as serious as those presented are simply speculation and Bassey should produce his evidence linking his preposterous claims of Al Qeeda training camps training young British Sikhs. If it is all based on claims from the “Institute of Conflict Management in Delhi” which is headed my the notorious KPS Gill, then Bassey must be more naive then you think.
In response to you post #36 regarding the Charity Commission having the tools to deal with the politics of Gurdwara committees then I think you are living in laa dee daa land. The CC take a stand back every time these Religious disputes take place, that’s why we are in this situation. Ask any Gurdwara committee who has attempted to get the CC to intervene.
KHALISTAN ZINDABAD
It amuses me how sikhs point the finger at the indian government when the government is headed by a Sikh himself.
I am a sikh. I was born and raised in US and am in UK rite now for work purposes. Can someone please explain to me what ‘khalistan’ it is that we seem to be demanding? A new country? Where? Punjab in India as a new country? Can’t we see what’s happening to Pakistan? How can Punjab self-sustain as a country with militant leaders? Surely it’s not that little area of Punjab where majority doesn’t want to be separate from India that can be Khalistan. There must be some other piece of land someplace else? Out with it, guys. Where is this new Khalistan supposed to be? I surely would like to know.
I also concur with Manni’s point. The government is headed by a Sikh leader. Who are these ‘pseudo-sikhs’ pointing fingers at? I call them ‘pseudo-sikhs’ cuz as far as I know, my gurus died for the Hindu faith! My gurus would never approve of their followers, the true Sikhs, to kill and murder in name of religion. My gurus died themselves and sacrificed their own families to maintain peaceful co-existence of all religions. People who moved out of India know nothing of what’s happening back home and have ideas that have neither rational thought nor the peaceful message of Sikh religion behind them! Regret is what i feel when I read/hear of such extremism in any religion for religion is supposed to love all, and accept and tolerate others who are different.
You and your Bassey friend are simply stooges to the white, using false claims to try to make a break at the expense of your community, not that you even are sikhs!
Your rubbish show had no evidence to back up your claims.
I hope you and your Bassey friend enjoy your success as sell-outs.
And another thing, if that coward had any balls he would have made it a live show, with the possibility of calling in.
Offcourse, he knew that he would not be able to counter a single argument.
And not to mention, if a ‘khalistan’ is ever established on this to-be-discovered piece of land big enough and self-sustaining enough to be a country, all inhabitants would finish themselves within decades. Reason why? Well, have a look at Punjab’s sex ratio. Punjabis are wiping out the daughters. It’s a shame that despite being the most financially successful state in the country, we have the worst sex ratio. Punjabis in UK and Canada are not far behind. Female foeticide is rampant here as well. Why don’t we try to fix problems that ACTUALLY ARE problems first before jumping on the bandwagon of religious propaganda and spend millions of pounds on causes that will bring nothing but destruction to humanity? We are committing FEMALE GENOCIDE as we speak (have a look at http://unwantedgirlchild.blogspot.com)!!! Why don’t sikh leaders come forward and tackle that instead?? Why don’t women give off their gold chains to save their own sex? Why isn’t there that kind of funding for fight against domestic abuse? Why why why why why!!! It really pisses me off! Done for the night.
manmohan singh has only been prime minister for a couple of years u dozy gits.
u expect sikhs to forget all the human rights abuses over the last 25 years?
he is also leader of the congress party (or puppet of sonia gandhi some would say) who caused all the abuses.
i suggest you read up before making these comments.
Mr Chauhan i have two words for you..KHALISTAN ZINDABAAD!!
Hello,
I clicked on the link to listen to the show. it was interesting to listen to. Anyone who knows the background of what has taken place in the history of post-independence india and pakistan could see that the standards of journalism were not that good. He was clearly asking much tougher questions of, and probing into Avtar Singh Sanghera and meanwhile accepting whatever the spokesman of Punjab Police was saying as gospel which is pretty ridiculous considering both are as extreme as each other. If anything, i doubt Avtar Singh has done anything in his life other than disgracefully knock a few turbans off at the Temple unlike the Punjab Police who have taken part in systematic genocide.
I agree whole-heartedly with his uncovering of those who are causing fights in Gurdwaras. However this is part of a wider cultural problem in the Punjabi community as these people moved mainly from Pubs into Gurdwaras and continue to behave in the same loutish behaviour. Amardeep Bassey started off well but then totally missed the fact that although the Federation and Babbars had some control over Gurdwaras that was mainly in the 1980s and now it is Serious Organised Criminal Gangs that are taking over. Himmat S. Sohi of the Southall Gurdwara and Ravinder Powar in Birmingham rely on these Organised Criminal Gangs of drunken punjabi thugs to maintain their grip on temples which they gained while beating the ailing old Babbars out of temples. An investigation of these Gangmasters like Ravinder Powar of Powar Builders, Tari Kandola who runs SP, Himmat Sohi is needed because they have become multi-millionaires in a very short time by siphoning funds from Temples, Drug dealing, bringing illegal immigrants into the country and getting them to sell drugs, running protection rackets, etc.
Hence, I think the Radio 4 programme started well but was intentionally taken towards a very negative angle by someone who clearly has some kind of bias against the community at large. Let’s not forget it isn’t these Babbar groups but the community at large which is feeling the brunt of these tabloid headlines and if an innocent Sikh gets killed in a race hate attack as a result of this then that will be a sad state of affairs.
I am personally not a supporter of the whole Khalistan thing so please dont categorise my feedback based on that. I think that the radio programme attempted to convince the listener into believing non-existent problem. Amardeep Bassey seems to have managed to convince the BBC that there is a major problem with Sikh violence and surprisingly the BBC seem to have bought it.
If Sikhs were initially accused of bombing Air India in 1985 then those Sikhs were also acquitted. Shouting statements that Sikhs in the UK fund terrorism through Gurdwara Community donations are dangerous statements with repercussions for the visible Sikh community. Completely unsubstantiated claims that Sikhs are forging links with Islamist terror groups and Gurdwaras are becoming breeding grounds for Abu Hamza style extremist preaching is a malicious lie. Will Amardeep Bassey provide evidence about where this happens? These sensational claims have a huge effect on the average public opinion on Sikhs. As a Sikh I have had to experience abuse due to mistaken identity after 9/11. Irresponsibly broadcasting these concocted statements only increases the risk of innocent Sikhs getting attacked by the ignorant troublemakers. Provide real evidence that Sikhs support or fund terrorism and are with Al Qaeda. At a time when the government is sending advisories to its ministers to not talk of ‘Islamic’ terrorism, we have license fee paid media dreaming up an imaginary ‘Sikh’ terror cell.
Well it doesn’t help by sikh youths wearing hoodies based on Khalistan and AK47’s does it? Aren’t those very same youths brain washed into the whole support of Khalistan, isn’t that seen as a means of extremism.
This really is an issue for sikhs living in western countries like UK, US and Canada where many people have fundamental views, yet majority of Sikhs in Punjab, India don’t seem to have any problems with it and are not in support of a Khalistan.
Do people think that having a view on Khalistan can only be backed by a violent/extremist attitude? I am not big on the Khalistan movement because for me at this stage of my life it’s a non issue and unimportant. I live in a poltically active part of West Midlands where most local Sikhs believe passionatly about the Sikh homeland dream, this includes mothers, kids and elders. Are these people terrorists or extremists because I interact with them everyday of my life? Some of them like to wear those hoodies, more like a fashion statement than a political statement. Ok they may be a bit immature and nostaligically look at the whole 80’s thing like something out of an action movie, but they are not interested in blowing up buildings or joining the Al Qeada.
Sunny is so anti sikh . Would al queada join want a load of kuffers, defeats their objective
God almighty this thread must have been linked to on one of the fundamentalist forums — that person identifying himself as michael richardson is straight out of sikhsangat.com.
What’s the point in letting these paranoid conspiracy theorising head-in-the-sand chanting louts contribute to a thread with nothing more than slogans and posturing, and spinning moronic paranoid idiocy about ’self hating Sikhs’, ‘anti Sikh’ and racist trash imputing Uncle Tom motives for the reports?
Why doesn’t the moderator exercise some control here?
LOL. I know, SS and a whole load of other forums have been linking here and writing rubbish. Hence the invasion of nutters.
Harjinder: PS : theres an idiot called Sarpanch on sikhsangat websites makin all kinds of silly comments about you personally and the programme itself.
Thanks, yeah I know about SS and about that poster in particular.
Why don’t you just delete the sloganeers and those who make comments about Amardeep Bassey or Sunny Hundal being ‘anti-Sikh’ then? If the morons and the ostriches want to debate by slander on their paranoid little forums they can do so, but why allow them to squeak about things here?
Harvinder, if you read my posts correctly you would understand that I said the CC SHOULD be doing more about this issue, and that they should FOCUS on it more. They have the statutory tools to deal with it, they just need the will, knowledge and expertise. Concerned Sikhs have to approach them and campaign for this, take it up with their MPs and bring awareness of the problem.
Avtar Sangera wasn’t chosen as a spokesman for anyone. He was interviewed because he made provocative speeches at the Hyde Park rally calling for individuals to be ‘wiped off the face of Punjab’ and was also connected with a banned terrorist organisation, Babbar Khalsa.
Sunny Hundal
I have sent you an e-mail please check your inbox. I sent an attachment with it so it might go into your spam so check there if it’s not in your inbox. Thanks.
Thanks, got it and will respond soon.
At the end of the day, Armadeep Bassey is a typical new breed Asian journalist trying to make a name for himself by sensationalising his Asian background, this is typical for most Asian journalists in western media (what say you Mr Hundal?).
Rupinder - ever done a bit of digging around Gurdwara politics lately? You’ll soon realise what a can of worms they are the vested interests that run them.
The alternative to your ‘theory’ above is that people like Amardeep, and myself, want to expose the corruption and thuggish behaviour of Sikhs within the community. The only way idiots can respond is by calling them ’sellouts’. But then what else do you have, when you know the charges of corruption and thuggish behaviour are so true?
Harvinder, you really are a pathetic, brainless, knee jerking paranoid little thug aren’t you? Foul mouthed, bigoted, morally coward, full of nothing but anger, hunting for traitors for whom you’d like nothing but intimidate and bully. No wonder your anger is out of control. Your comments should be read by everyone as an example of the mindless extremist foul-mouthed thug that Amardeep Bassey so brilliantly exposed in his documentary. So pathetic.
Sunny Hundal
Prove to me Sikhs bombed AIR INDIA
Prove to me Sikhs bombed the Cinema in Ludhiana
Give me proof Sikhs fund terrorism from UK Shores
Prove to me UK Sikhs go Pakistan and train
Prove to me Al Qaeda have joined Babbar Khalsa - (A group which no longer exists).
Prove to me these alegations and I will shut up
Avtar Singh Sanghera is a sevadar of the Panth
History is witness to what Avtar Singh said, he is correct in what he said ,in no way did he say go bomb places or go raise funds,he stated facts,we want these Rapist Killers who have raped women out of Panjab.
You and your BBC Loosers have tried to Slander the UK Sikh community,what you trying to do lead it?
ha lets see you try,Sikhs have been living here long before you came to this country Mr Hundal,You coconuts make out OoOoO Sikhs are the new threat the new al qaeda connection as tht BBC looser said,I remember when the respect 4 Guru Ji campaign happened you did the same then got exicted and jumped ,ooooo fanatics this that,then 2006 rally oh Sikhs burned a flag - wooow what a tragedy ,So what if Sikhs burned the Indian tri colour,they have every right to,burning a dirty 3 coloured cloth is nothing compared to rape of thousands of women,the blowing up of the worlds 5 th largest religions holy shrine,the wiping out of a whole generation,and the Genocide of the Sikh Community by the Brahmin mentality Govt of India.
You bunch of looosers,pathetic Journalists,I wonder how you sleep at night with your lies,and how you got to your Gurdwara,you probably see a gyani with a Kirpan too big and call him a fanatic,or you probabaly see a pic of Shaheed Bhindranwale and think oh the original Osama,
,so lost you are,You the BBC ,Panjab Police,and everyone else can keep dreaming up lies,about Al Qaeda and Sikhs,and UK Sikhs funding terrorism,
You can’t prove nothing
LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS,
If you and the BBC continue rubbish like this don’t be surprised if you see Sikhs protesting in London agianst these lies.
Go and do some real journalism expose the Indian govt for what it is
Surinder,
It would be:
Liars, etc. Please note the ‘a’. Rather than the ‘e’.
Are you saying that it wasn’t Khalistani seperatists that did this? Y’know, downing Flight 182? Who else is in the frame? Who else would have cause?
Douglas have you read Soft Target regarding Air India. Some interesting relevations on Indian Intelligence (RAW)activities in Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_Target_(book)
The documentary was fairly poor , had trouble trying to listen to it as itwas so boring. The one thing it did do was give some of the human rights violators a stage and give some ammunition to the right wing press (The Sun of all papers)
Oh was that what this site was against.
I think Surinder’s comments should recieve an adequate response, I’m sure its nothing for you courageous and brilliant journalists
fyi, babbar khalsa was known (at the time it actually existed) to have the most strict entry requirements over any other Khalistani group, you had to be Amritdhari and know the 5 prayers of an Amritdhari by heart, among other things.
A statement such as BK joining with non-sikhs (Al-queda) who they would indeed consider terrorists is laughable (and vice versa I suppose).
There really was no solid evidence put forward during this programme.
ps. I have a question in regards to Mr.Sanghera, was he given the option of speaking in panjabi, like Mr. Sohi?
‘manmohan singh has only been prime minister for a couple of years u dozy gits.
u expect sikhs to forget all the human rights abuses over the last 25 years?’
What human rights abuses??? The riots of 1984. What was behind them? POLITICS! PERSONAL VESTED INTERESTS OF SOME PETTY POLITICIANS! I haven’t yet faced discrimination in India for being a Sikh. I’ve lived there for 3 years and there were hindu students in the school which i went to (a sikh family run school) and there were never differences between students cuz of our religions! Religion never mattered! That’s what the greatness of Punjab is. We are a tolerant race. So, why do politicians’ games skew our thinking? They got what they wanted out of it. We were the ones left fighting with our blood for a decade to follow!!! My naana ji’s first cousin who was a prominent sikh himself was gunned down by these so-called Sikh terrorists! For what???? Some money???? They weren’t fighting for any religion. They were fighting for MONEY. Fighting for religion does NOT ask for bloodshed! No, sir, I won’t agree that EVEN IF there was any human rights abuse, any religion would approve of bloodshed of innocent people in response. Certainly not my religion, sir, certainly not sikhi.
What other human rights abuses were there in the past 25 years? Please educate me cuz maybe even despite living in India in 90z, I might not have noticed. I never felt discriminated against and neither did any of my family no matter where we traveled in India. Blaming an entire country for what some handful of idiots did is like blaming all hindus for what Modi did in Gujarat. How narrow minded an approach is it!?
And please refrain from being abusive. I am merely asking for a discussion, not a public show down. If you can’t argue, please don’t respond cuz I surely don’t have the energy to fight.
and no one asked my question …
Where is this self-sustaining country of Khalistan going to be? Are all sikhs from all over the world going to move there? i am really curious!!! Is BC in Canada going to be converted to Khalistan???? cuz that can surely self-sustain!! Where else?
and no one ‘answered my question …
Where is this self-sustaining country of Khalistan going to be? Are all sikhs from all over the world going to move there? i am really curious!!! Is BC in Canada going to be converted to Khalistan???? cuz that can surely self-sustain!! Where else?
Sunny,
In response to your post #57. As mentioned above, I am not arguing the fact that we don’t have corruption within our Gurdwara institutes. I don’t deny we have some nutcase preachers walking around in our community. I don’t deny we have no problems leading our lives in the UK. But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.
I agree that the present infrastructure of Sikh political leadership does not give me much confidence, therefore I have no motivation to attach myself to any Khalistan campaign. But all I see in your constructive journalism when it comes to the Sikh community, is that you selectively hunt for the “can of worms” or talk yourself into creating the can with the worms in it.
Mr Bassey and BBC need to provide real evidence, not hearsay or the Indian government’s theories or views that they want to believe.
There’s no point thrashing out a subject while holding a particular viewpoint on the subject, and not applying neutral point of view to the process. I feel that a number of these over ambitious Asian Journalist are particular in this, like the politicians they dismiss the real structured non biased opinions and only highlight the incoherent points.
K Singh,
Yup, I know what a soft target is. I am not at all clear who else would have seen it as a worthwhile target and not claimed responsibility.
Personally, I have no idea who blew up flight 182, but someone did. That, at least, seems to be beyond dispute.
The point of my post was that Surinder has gone on the offensive. Leaving quite glaring gaps in his or her defence.
So, again, who else would have had cause? Are you saying it was a ‘false flag’ operation?
Esha,
I grew up during 80s/90s in the UK and can only rely what we used to hear within in the Sikh community. My interpretation was that Khalistan initially nothing more that a self created slogan to establish a threat to the Indian government in response to whatever issues were taking place in Punjab at the time. The rise in militancy was a rollercoaster created by a mix of the Indian government propaganda, politicians, criminals and genuine victims of state police brutality. In this time of anxiety many miscalculated, unforgiving mistakes were made from misinterpretations and blatant exploitations. We cannot deny that tens of thousands of innocents suffered during this period, Sikhs and non Sikhs alike.
There can be no Khalistan or Sikh homeland without a strong foothold within the practicing of Sikh morals, ethics and ideals which at the moment I fail to see collectively in the global Sikh community. I think as it is, we struggle to maintain Sikh values within the running of Gurdwaras and I see that as a clear message from God to get our own houses in shape before we campaign for any homeland.
Unfortunately, my experiences as a practicing Sikh is that partly due to our outwardly appearance and various opinions, we are very easily stereotyped, pigeon-holed and typecast into believing we have an extremist view. I sometimes feel that the people are always waiting for a Sikh to slip up so that they can claim that they “told us so” and tarnish the Sikh community as a group of “village idiots”. The aftermath of 9/11 was experienced by the Sikh males, who had to bear some physical and verbal abuse as well as being seen as suspicious. The first person arrested on a train in the US after 9/11 was a Sikh male and the first person murdered in retaliation was a Sikh male. Amardeep Bassey and the BBC can make tall claims that UK Sikhs fund terrorist activities and then they can then carry on with the next news story. But it’s the common Sikh person who has to face the ever suspecting world.
More power to your response, Rupinder. Thank you for a well balanced answer.
I am not aware of whether UK sikhs are funding terrorism or not, and neither do I care to believe anything media has to say. All I hope and pray is that we learn to maintain Sikh values within the running of our gurdwaras first, like you said. I was in Houston a couple of months ago and it was rather interesting to see that for 2500-3000 sikh families in Houston, there were SEVEN gurdwaras. I hope we learn to live in unity first whilst leaving our ego and power struggles away from Sikhi. We need to learn to respect our daughters and mothers first, and not kill them in name of honor after and before birth. List goes on. Hopefully, someone would listen.
Thanks once again. I truly appreciate your response. It’s rare to see a fair-headed argument in discussions involving ‘religion’.
Cheers.
ALL THESE EXTREMISTS WEBSITES AND STUFF ON YOUTTUBE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN.
IM GLAD THEY ARE GETTING NEGATIVE EXPOSURE AS THEY GIVE US HARD WORKING, PEACEFULL PROFESSIONAL EDUCATED SIKSH A BAD NAME.
WE HAVE WORKED FOR GENERATIONS TO GET THE BRITISH PEOPLES RESPECT AND NOW BECAUSE OF THESE TWATS WE R SEEN AS TERRORISTS
‘What human rights abuses??? The riots of 1984. What was behind them? POLITICS! PERSONAL VESTED INTERESTS OF SOME PETTY POLITICIANS!’
Esha, you’re right. The abuses that occurred in India against the Sikh community were driven by politics and politicians, not the general Hindu community. Therefore the grievance is against the powers that be. In this, we have the support of many Hindus. Firstly, ‘the riots’ of 1984. The definition of it as a riot by the Indian government has for far too long mischaracterised it for what it was without any shadow of doubt, a massacre against the minority Sikh community. 23 years on, and the organisers have yet to be brought to justice.
See: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1492
But there’s more to just the pogroms of November 1984. Prior to it, in June 1984, the Golden Temple was attacked, supposedly against a handful of militants, but ended up in cold-blooded murder of thousands of innocent pilgrims. The following months, a reign of terror was unleashed in the villages of Punjab, codenamed Operation Woodrose where baptised Sikhs were officially labelled as terrorist, arrested, tortured and killed. The extra-judicial killings that occurred at the behest of Punjab Police chiefs like KPS Gill (who heads the so called independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi, on whose allegations people are questioning here on this blog) took the lives of tens of thousands for a whole decade afterwards and have been well-documented by human rights groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
See: http://www.solarider.org/dld/Kristallnacht.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/1984TruthandJustice
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1469
On your question of Khalistan. I can’t answer as I do not subscribe to it. Most Sikhs want the above human rights abuses to be resolved and it’s India’s shame that it has to this date not done so.
In #45 you raised the issue of Female genocide in the Punjab and general domestic abuse. Both of these issues are important, and you’re quite right to raise these also.
douglas,
indian gov’t
I too sense the futility of the call for Khalistan. Really what possible end could it have? Were it that Sikhs are marginalised in India and discriminated against, I would even understand. But guys, Sikhs are the MOST well off sections of society in India. I mean, my friends always tell me that you could roam all of India and still not find a Sikh beggar. My chest swelled with prode at that. Besides let me just top of my head see who we have as Sikhs in positions of power:
PM - Manmohan Singh. Widely respected and admired in and out of India.
Army chief Retd this year - J.J. Singh
Head of Planning Commission - Montek Ahluwalia
External Affairs Spokesperson - Navtej Sarna
Scores (literally) of Business Leaders - Pharma, Tyres Technology you name it.
I pity those delusional fools who think they need to be ‘elsewhere’. Really what more could they want. They can be the best in Industry and in Political life, what is the matter with these guys. Sure 1984 was bad but if anything, India is an equal opportunity offender killing Sikhs Muslims and Dalits in regular cycles. Just as we dont want the whole Sikh community to be labeled Terrorsit for teh actions of a few, so we should not label the whole of India for the actions of a few.
Finally - I will leave you with the PM’s address in Rajya Sabha on the Sikh riots.
http://pmindia.nic.in/RS%20speech.pdf
I can’t tell you how glad I am to see the above few comments, guys. I’ve been getting disillusioned for the past couple of days after reading this post, and after looking at a few sikh-extremist websites.
Thank you, Parvinder. Thank you for all the links as well. I truly do respect the emotions and need for justice for all of those who were affected in years of terror inflicted by a (power-hungry) select few. However, there must be some other way to seek justice rather than resorting to means that would only cause more bloodshed. If getting justice means hurting more innocent people, is justice worth it? Why can’t we just bury it as a bitter past and learn lesson from it to never repeat the same process of blindly following criminals who are only hungry for power and money? That’s just my view. As for KPS Gill, it’s true that he is no angel. He has done plenty harm, but without him doing that, Punjab might’ve still been terrorized. I don’t know if KPS’s approach was the best approach but it was an approach that worked. Why should we, as a race/religion, even get to the point where someone like KPS has to commit mass murder? Why did Sikh terrorism start in the first place? What were they trying to achieve by murdering innocent people? What are they trying to achieve now?
I remember one scene so clearly .. we were in India to visit my grandparents … Me and my father were coming back from an aunty’s house in our car … It was a busy intersection. A white gypsy appeared out of nowhere at an enormous speed and orange turbaned individuals in it started randomly firing at people while driving by and shouting Khalistan slogans. My dad ducked me to the car floor and the driver and him also ducked. After the gypsy passed by, we got out. There was a sikh sardar lying on the road in a pool of blood. Dad quickly sent me back to the car. I can never forget that sight. There was a lunch box lying on the ground besides his bicycle. He was probably returning home to his wife and kids from a day at work. Did his wife know that he won’t be returning home when she was packing his lunch in the morning? Did he know that the turban that he so proudly put on his head in the morning would mean nothing by the end of the day? I’ve lived through days when we were so scared of my nana ji being shot any day. He was a village sarpanch and a quite well known man in the villages around. He used to have security around him all the time. His death meant a lot to many people seeking his position of power around. There were few attempts at his life too. For what? For power? It just shakes me endless when I think of those days. Religion was the last thing that was on mind of these ruthless people. If KPS had to resort to the measures he did to alleviate terrorism from Punjab, more power to him. He is no way justified, but was there any other choice in the moment? Every day there were 30 killed, 70 killed … and everyone lived in fear. You never knew when you were going to be shot down. Wives were scared to let their husbands out of home. Kids didn’t want to go to school. What do you expect really? It surprizes me that people living in Canada and UK and those who didn’t live in india during days of terror pass judgments and seek justice and all that. People in Punjab instead are nonchalant about it all. They have lived through days of blood and gore, and no one in a sane mind would want it back. No one except those who gain from it.
I get emotional just writing about it. I wish that the kids who are writing on these extremist sikh websites could’ve seen how it was to live in Punjab when violence for KHALISTAN was rife. Please please please please don’t bring it back again.
Harjinder: you make an interesting point. I’m going to narrate yet another story … My father is a turban tying sikh. In late 1970’s, he was posted in Uttar Pradesh for his first job. Sometimes when we talk about days of terrorism, he sadly tells us, “There were days in late 1970’s in Uttar Pradesh, people used to get up in public buses to offer me (a Sardar) a seat because they thought bus would be safe with a sardar on it. (UP’s known for its bandits as i am sure u are aware) However, during terrorism days, people used to get OFF the bus if a Sardar got on it.” Isn’t it sad? All that our Gurus did, we single handedly wiped it by our murderous acts.
Yadvinder, I totally agree. I was in India in December. Me and my husband traveled across the country for a month. It was after 10 years that I had gone back. Wherever I went, I got respect merely for being a Punjabi. I really didn’t see how sikhs are disadvantaged in India in any manner. They are very much a part of the mainstream, and are doing much better financially than any other state habitants. I went to a small town in Andhra Pradesh and there was a ‘Punjab house’ there if you would believe it. There wasn’t any haryana house or rajasthan house or uttar pradesh house but a Punjab House owned by a Sardar family in the depths of Telugu heartland. Couldn’t tell you how proud I was of him, the Sardar owner who had integrated into a culture so different from ours, and for the telugu people there who had accepted him open-heartedly. I am proud of being a Sikh, proud of being a Punjabi, and above all, proud of being an Indian!!
I don’t agree with the tactics of people like KPS Gill as no policeman should be above the law, whatever the provocation. Human rights worker, Jaswant Singh Khalra uncovered mass cremations which one Indian judge descibed as ‘worse than genocide’. It was this case that eventually led to Khalra’s murder. I’m for a civilised India, not a police state. Watch Gurdas Maan’s Dil Hooya Pardes to see the real consequence of Gills’ policy.
There is also evidence to suggest the police had their own groups carrying out sectarian killings. Nevertheless, if sikh groups carried them at any stage, they should be rightly condemned.
My Masi, Masar and 3 cousins escaped with their lives during the pogroms of 1984 in Delhi. But at no stage then or since then did any of them have any hate against their Hindu neighbours, only the local congress leaders. It’s this that offers us hope and optimism that one day India will truly be secular which our Gurus would have wanted.
Thanks for your post Esha, very informative.
sorry, should read Gurdas Maan’s Des Hooya Pardes
But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.
It’s not made into a massive conspiracy - but there are undeniable links between extremist groups here and Pakistani groups who share a common agenda. Why should they not be explored and exposed?
I know how much propganda there is floating around about Muslim boys supposedly kidnapping and forcibly converting Sikh women… about how every Hindu is a secret RSS plant etc. I’m more critical than most people in the national press of Muslim extremist groups and the RSS and their affiliates here, so I don’t need lectures from people like Surinder about selling out. Its easy to hide behind anonymous forums and issue “press releases” and be an internet warrior.
Remember that presenter at Punjab Radio who died after being attacked by religious nuts? I’m assuming you also know the same nuts went after the rest of his family too.
People like yourself, who keep making excuses for religious fanatics and internet warriors like Surinder only contribute to the problem. There is a serious problem at Gurudwara level. There is a serious intellectual problem too - Sikh groups cannot tolerate criticism and there is no intellectual debate taking place about our role in society here and the values of Sikhism.
Instead, people are obsessed by following through with reactionary and ill-conceived hukumnamas from the SGPC and Akal Takht.
Tell me - which bit of what I said in the doc did you disagree with? You know all of its true. There are organisations using 1984 to get more money and power for themselves, and whipping up paranoia about Muslims and Hindus. And any criticism is seen as a Indian govt plot.
It’s a shame how far the Sikh community in the UK has fallen. We’re not as bad as the Vancouver Sikhs, thank god, at least.
Sunny,
Re: Post #78.
I agree with your comments about the serious intellectual problem that “Sikh groups cannot tolerate criticism and there is no intellectual debate taking place about our role in society here and the values of Sikhism.” That’s something the ego driven need to overcome.
On the point about Jasvir Singh from Punjab radio, I am pretty sure he’s still alive but again there was no valid reason to beat him up and there was nothing a good intellectual debate couldn’t have achieved.
Your closing comment that the Sikh community in the UK have fallen is just your negative opinion and I disagree with blanket statement. If you are basing your opinion on these hot headed sporadic incidents that you like to home in on then they are so few that you can count them on your hand. These troublemakers are so isolated into small groups who still struggle to gain any mainstream support. It is the Punjabi/British media’s adverse publicity that makes them more notorious than they deserve to be and the reverse psychology of this is that they actually start gaining more support. R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign. It’s your media that gives them their platform not the Gurdwara stages where the president is too busy protecting his own turbans being knocked off by the opposition.
The budhi of a Gursikh is different to the budhi of a manmukh, let them continue saying what they want, our job is to remember akaal purkh 24/7, if we do this, we will no whats right and whats wrong and everything will fall into place. Theres always going to be two groups arguing on this subject, best to leave these people chatting.
R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign.
This isn’t true. There were plenty of reports and discussions about them on web forums before the Asian media picked up on it. I had people emailig me saying that they had been personally threatened or knew of the stuff that was going on, but people were too afraid to talk about it openly.
Unless the media exposes their agenda, how do you propose they be dealt with by the police? The police usually try and not do anything because they don’t want to be labelled as racist.
Remember the big punch-up in Birmingham during Vaisakhi? You had the Babbar Khalsa, Shere Punjab, Sikh Federation and other people involved in a fight for a Gurudwara during the holiest of all festivals. That’s not just besthi, it is endemic of the problem.
Incidentally, the ruckus at Southall Gurdwara wasn’t the fault of the media was it? There’s been fights and arguments between Sohi et al and the Lion Group for how many years now?
It’s easy to blame the media… but the real problem is the village mentality that still pervades British Sikhs. Just look at “surinder” screaming and shouting above as a good example.
I’m a Sikh I don’t want Khalistan, I love India our prime minister is Sikh.
Most guys on this board sound militant.
Statements like the one below sound militant. It’s worrying because you guys don’t even think you’re militant but you sound it!
“You and your journalists can keep trying to smear Sikhs but in the end you lot don’t represent it anyway,real Sikh leaders are Khalistanis ,you seriously think that the future generation of kids who dont know nothing will represent Sikhi on the world Platform i dnt thnik so,will you nah never,it will be the GurSikhs who Speak out agianst oppresion and for human rights like SANT JARNAIL SINGH JI KHALSA BHINDRANWALE who put his life down to save the Panth”
can i say to sukhi u need to no the facts you are talking on here say,as far as mr bassi i would like to ask him or his supporters when he got caught in pakistan who did he go to for help and now he talks about them like im sorry if im not clear its just i dont want to giv to much info.
sikh orgs can take flak as long as it is true we say that money goes missing from sikh gurudwara i ask u where can u go and get full meal for free u do no that it cost money,i agree sum gurudwara need to be asked the ?but not all and the way that program came out it sounds like every gurudwara is corrupt
esha u must rememberwat sant ji said was far diff from wat u seen u cannot say that ppl do not get on the bandwagon and use the fight for freedom for there own personnel gain.sikh need our homeland sooner rather than later.sikhs fought against the british for years then they thought they had there homeland but in 1952 it all started again sikhs oppersion and killings so that is the reason for our homeland so aleast we can say this is ours
” that is the reason for our homeland so aleast we can say this is ours”
That is bordering hilarious!
Why do you need a homeland in India? So you can sit in you 3 bedroom semi in Handsworth and think….”I wish I was in Khalistan land”…..!
Grow up and use your brain, the vast majority of Punjab AKA “Khalistan” right now is full of Bahyay from UP and what will happen when the vast majority of Sikh kids dont go back to Punjab from UK, America and Canada to claim their dads land! The Bahyay will take the land they currently work on as their own!
Say something realistic or constructive or don’t say anything at all!
mr bassey and hundal are two so called journalists trying to make a name for themselves,, but instead of being doing this by having excellent skills in their fields they rely on small sensational stories to reach a larger field, abit like the photographers scrambling for a picture of the dying princess diana, they will never be accepted by british journalism as credible professionals , so dont fret they can only be accepted as token asians not apt to write on anything of any importance except asian issues,
esha i think you need to contact amnesty international, or human rights watch or even my uncle whos son was killed for being a sikh in delhi in 1984, or a lady i know who was raped in the 80s by the police of punjab,, grow up ,, read about the black cats ,, do some research
Does sunny and croonys march and protest against the irish terrorist in the Northern Ireland assembly.OH they can denounce violents and follow democracy.But the Sikh federation and Babbar Khalsa cant.Sinn Fein are the tax payers pay roll and received lottery money. That is allowed as they are goras. It is only sikhs who are not allowed to demand a homeland because in the eyes of Sunny and new breed of self hating asian intellectia it is religion bigotry for sikh self determination.
“Does sunny and croonys march and protest against the irish terrorist in the Northern Ireland assembly.OH they can denounce violents and follow democracy.But the Sikh federation and Babbar Khalsa cant.Sinn Fein are the tax payers pay roll and received lottery money. That is allowed as they are goras. It is only sikhs who are not allowed to demand a homeland because in the eyes of Sunny and new breed of self hating asian intellectia it is religion bigotry for sikh self determination.”
Firstly where should I or can I correct you first?
Ireland belongs to the Irish it was Ireland before Britian went over and occupied it!
Khalistan has never been a country, some Sikh’s want to start a country from scratch in Punjab called Khalistan!
A very big difference there I think, there is a massive difference between occupying another country and enforcing law and politics on it. Where as Khalistani’s are trying to claim land within a country as their own through religious means!
Sunny cant take the truth ,THE PANJAB RADIO PRESNTER HE CLAIMS IS DEAD - ‘JASVIR SINGH’ IS ALIVE AND WELL AND DID A RADIO SHOW 2DY JUST SHOWS HOW MCH OF A LIER HE IS
Barrack obama could be President of America . So the american blacks will be in a land of equal opportunity and bliss with out discrimination
Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE .
I’m glad those leaving comments are capable of making coherent arguments.
Heh. That’s why I’m leaving them up here. Such intellectual powess leaves me simply bowled over.
i may not be a intelletual power house but i dont have my job on sympathy card of bbc postive discrimination
well said nobodys heros,,
mr hundal ur views on the new kosovo state
were they not surpressed by the yugoslav state, the west and nato supported the move,, never understate the change of mind that can occur,, india is allegedly a federal state.
you do not have to be special to have an opinion but you have to be special to express it as a journalist with a responsibility,, that does not mean you do not speak the truth due to loyalty but what you say has to be truthful.
i think you need to re-assess your whole look on the sikh freedom movement that people believe in,,, i am by no means a fanatic i just want to see justice for 1984,, i want to see a democracy follow its foundation as per its constitution or lets the sikhs adhere to nehrus words that we can go our own way,, remember there are more jews outside israel than in it,, nobody thought this state would come into existence
just because you have a brown face does not give you carte blanche on all sikh punjabi brown asian opinion
“Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE”
Throughout history boarders have changed, this is really nothing new, however the “Punjab” pre-1947 has never been a majority Sikh state (even during the
times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh) and as mentioned above, the current demographics of Punjab are changing as well.
“The budhi of a Gursikh is different to the budhi of a manmukh, let them continue saying what they want, our job is to remember akaal purkh 24/7, if we do this, we will no whats right and whats wrong and everything will fall into place. Theres always going to be two groups arguing on this subject, best to leave these people chatting”
That’s very nice Jagjeet, however it really doesn’t add anything to the debate and whilst not accusing you of this, I have long heard this rhetoric from Sikh circles when faced with ’sensitive issues’ (i.e. ‘won’t worry, do more simran (meditation), all will be fine), which is little more than sweeping the issue under the carpet.
There’s a million heartbreaking stories out there in the Punjab. 20 years down the line let’s look at this realistically, I don’t think anyone can deny that people took advantage of the situation and used the whole militancy phase to take out their personal grievances. Whether it was in the guise of the militant, the police or the government, there were probably many hidden agendas which ended up overshadowing any real honorable legitimate cause.
I think the confusion of these mixed agendas is still causing problems today, where some Sikhs are unintentionally ending up trying to follow an excessive agenda without fully understanding why. I sometimes wonder if we are taking advantages of these platforms to get our inner prejudices out. In it’s extreme, someone who supports the idea Khalistan is deemed to be brutal sadistic Sikh fanatic and someone who does not support Khalistan is a classed as a supporter for a right wing Brahmin loving government. That’s why these discussions are guaranteed to end up in a “tu tu main main” argument before we ever reach any middle ground in order to understand one another. Oh yeah and then there’s the media adding their own masala, trying to talk us into another situation!
Rupinder wrote:
“Your closing comment that the Sikh community in the UK have fallen is just your negative opinion and I disagree with blanket statement. If you are basing your opinion on these hot headed sporadic incidents that you like to home in on then they are so few that you can count them on your hand. These troublemakers are so isolated into small groups who still struggle to gain any mainstream support. It is the Punjabi/British media’s adverse publicity that makes them more notorious than they deserve to be and the reverse psychology of this is that they actually start gaining more support. R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign. It’s your media that gives them their platform not the Gurdwara stages where the president is too busy protecting his own turbans being knocked off by the opposition.”
This is a valid statement and one which shouldn’t be ignored by counterclaims of supposedly ‘playing the uncle-tom or race-card’.
“i mean he came out with so much crap, he could have mentioned the fact KPS Gill killed innocent Sikhs, Beant singh was blown up because he was KPS Gill’s bum chum and took part in the killings”
As above, I concur with Rupinder and Parvinder’s comments on some of the aspects ignored by the report, however the above is really missing the point - KPS Gill is known to have a terrible human rights record and that is something he needs to be held accountable for, much like the corrupt portion of the 1980s Congress Government, however the same is true of the Khalistani themsel