British Sikh extremists exposed


by Sunny
26th February, 2008 at 7:56 am    

Tonight is a big night. A documentary on Radio 4 will blow wide open various links between Sikh extremist groups in the UK and worldwide. It will expose groups here and the folly of our politicians who pander to them.

Below is the blurb about the programme. I’m going to post more stuff later on in the day.

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Britain has been warned of a new terror threat from Sikh extremists who are forging links with Islamist terror outfits linked to Al Qaida.

The revelation comes after the FBI compiled a Watchlist of American and British-based Sikhs who they believe are agitating for an independent Sikh homeland. Names on the watchlist include US-based Sikh activists who are regular visitors to Pakistan which is believed to be backing the movement for Sikh soveriegnty.

US authorities are concerned that Sikh radicals are being trained alongside Kashmiri militants at mobile terror camps run by the Pakistan secret service the ISI. Most of the main Sikh terror group leaders, who feature on the Indian Government’s Most Wanted lists, are based in Pakistan from where they occassionally deliver fiery speeches to supporters over the internet.

An FBI source said: “Though the Sikh groups are relatively ill-equipped and not very effective in their own right we have evidence to suggest that they have the ability to tap into the resources of pan-Islamist groups like Al Qaida. “The link has been established for a number of years now but recent incidents point to a hardening of these connections.”

He added: “The British authorities have been made aware of our interest in certain individuals residing in the UK who may have connections to Sikh terror groups based in Pakistan.”

Last October six people were killed and 32 injured when a bomb exploded in a packed cinema in Ludhiana in Punjab. According to Punjab Police the alleged mastermind Gurpreet Singh is a Sikh militant who had been trained in Pakistan from where he had smuggled explosives across the border into Punjab.

Dr Ajay Sahni, from the independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi said interrogation of Sikh terror suspects revealed that British Sikh recruits had also visited the training camps. He said: “We are aware that at least about 100 Sikh radical elements, just from Europe and the UK alone, have trained in Pakistan-based terror camps

“The presumption is that they’re training as a reserve to act in India when the opportunity arises.”

He added that Kashmiri militant groups like Lashkar e Toyba (LET), who have established links with Al Qaida, have worked closely with Sikh militants.
He added: “The co-oepartion between the Sikh militants and Al Qaida can only be opportunistic and cannot be a permanent settlement.

“It is only that at this juncture they see a common enemy in India.”

Britain is home to more than 700,000 Sikhs, the vast majority of whom are well-integrated respectable members of the community. The call for an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan, gained momentum in 1984 when the Indian army stormed the Sikh’s holiest shrine the Golden Temple in Amritsar.

There followed a decade-long Sikh insurgency which included bringing down a trans-atlantic airliner which until 9-11 was the single deadliest terrorist attack involving aircraft. In 2001 the Home Office banned two UK-based Sikh organisations, the International Sikh Youth Federation and Babbar Khalsa International, under the Terrorism Act 2000.

The issue of Sikh militancy is explored in a BBC Radio Four File on Four documentary tonight (TUE 26 February) at 8pm

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  1. Sikh extremists ‘linked to Al Qaida’ « pixelisation

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  1. ac — on 26th February, 2008 at 10:02 am  

    So who are the politcians who pander to them? (Genuine question)

  2. AJ — on 26th February, 2008 at 10:28 am  

    Let’s start with Hazel Blears, who said of the Sikh Federation:
    ‘May I commend the work of the Sikh Federation (UK), and thank you for all that you do. You have the respect of Government Ministers because of the seriousness and diligence you bring to your work of representing Britain’s Sikh community. In that, you are a model for others to emulate.’

    She may regret that final comment at 8pm this evening

  3. harvinder — on 26th February, 2008 at 11:50 am  

    I doubt she will AJ.

    Sikh federation although loosley connected to ISYF have stepped away from militancy and their main focus is to protect and project the sikh identity in the UK.(like the muslim council of britain does for muslims)

    although they still believe in khalistan, their objective in this area is to:

    ‘To lobby the UK Government to argue the case for the Sikh Nation’s right to self-determination.

    To provide information to the UK Government, Members of Parliament and MEPs as to the main reasons why the demands for an independent Sikh State – Khalistan have arisen.

    To work with Members of Parliament, MEPs and Sikh organisations in other countries to lobby foreign governments on the Sikh Nation’s right to self-determination and provide information as to why there are demands for Khalistan.’

    I am looking forward to this tonight. i have never heard of the al quaeda connection. this pakistan connection with khalistanis is well known though.

    p.s just because you believe in khalistan is doesnt mean your a militant psycho bomber!

  4. Sunny — on 26th February, 2008 at 12:36 pm  

    Hazel Blears, Sayeeda Warsi, Ken Livingstone – all of which have had dealings with these organisations and commended them, without realising their words are being used to pursue a different agenda.

  5. mani — on 26th February, 2008 at 1:51 pm  

    Is the sep. nation possible?

  6. Parvinder Singh — on 26th February, 2008 at 2:24 pm  

    Thanks Sunny for letting us know of the R4 programme.

    If it transpires that there is a link between Al-Qaida and some Sikh separatists then it should be righly condemned. And I’m no fan of the separatists who by raising their slogans, did more harm then good vis-a-vie the genuine human rights abuses that occurred for a whole decade from 1984 and 1994. In answer to #5, a separate nation was a dead end. Sikhs have sacrificed so much for a secular India, during the freedom struggle, defending the borders during the series of wars and standing up to dictationship during the Emergency. Why should they then want to leave it and join a religious based state. We are, by definition, a secular people and most Sikhs understand this.

    But let’s not be too simplistic in thinking all separatists would go this far and join with Al-Qaida. No doubt, and this is well documented in the study by Joyce Pettigrew in her book, ‘Sikhs of the Punjab: Unheard Voices of State and Guerrilla Violence’ (1995). In it she mentions in particular groups like Babbar Khalsa having links with Pakistan. But on the whole, most of the various groups fighting the Indian state during the 80s and 90s were scornful of Pakistan or Islamist involvement, as they felt being used by the Pakistan intelligence service in the bigger picture of avenging the breakup of East Pakistan.

    I’m not sure we know for definitely the Ludhiana Cinema bomb was the work of Sikh militants. Pakistan trained militants and even Hindu extremists link to the Sangh Parivar have also had the finger pointed at them. The Indian police have a tendency to drop into amnesia whenever the terrorist tendency of the latter is mentioned.

    ‘There followed a decade-long Sikh insurgency which included bringing down a trans-atlantic airliner which until 9-11 was the single deadliest terrorist attack involving aircraft.’

    Again, we don’t know for certain whether Sikh militants were involved. The case of two of them fell through in 2005.

    Although I don’t dispute the findings of think tanks in India, I do wish they also investigate the role of the Punjab police in setting up these militant groups in the first place. People should familiarise themselves with the work of Ram Narayan Kumar, Amrik Singh, Ashok Agrwaal and Jaskaran Kaur from The Committee for Coordination on Disappearances in Punjab who argued in their study ‘Our own research on Punjab in that period suggested that the state agencies were creating vigilante outfits in order to infiltrate the Sikh radical movement and generate a climate of moral revulsion by engineering heinous crimes which they then attributed to armed Sikh groups.

  7. Leon — on 26th February, 2008 at 2:31 pm  

    Is the sep. nation possible?

    Who knows. I support [the principle of] self determination but the means to gaining them are another debate…

  8. harvinder — on 26th February, 2008 at 2:50 pm  

    ^ great post, also Jaswant Singh Khalra’s report for which he was murdered by punjab police.

  9. harvinder — on 26th February, 2008 at 8:49 pm  

    errm, was it just me or was the programme kinda crap?

    seemed liked it was all just hear-say. nothing concrete.

    i dunno, i was kinda expecting something more meatier. something to debate etc. half of it had nothing to do with ‘Sikh millitancy’ (e.g the southall gurdwara bit).

    there was no proof for a lot of it.

    aah well

  10. Parvinder — on 26th February, 2008 at 9:10 pm  

    The Radio 4′s programme just highlights the mess UK Sikh gurdwara are in, the fierce competition over who wins the elections and thus gets control. It’s all back to village politics and raw thuggery more akin to 18th century banditry. I have seen this not only in Southall but far afield as Leeds during last year.

    This should be a wake up call to the majority of Sikhs to get their house in order or else end up like ‘he whom should not be named’. Shaheedi funds have always been suspicious and the lack of transparency in temple accounts just lets groups take advantage and misuse funds.

    Question is, who is bold enough to call and enforce such transparency? Try getting involved in temple politics and you’ll soon get burnt.

  11. Parvinder — on 26th February, 2008 at 9:17 pm  

    What is imperative is that we keep the campaign to bring closure to the victims of human rights abuses in India as far away as possible from issues such as separatism and temple brawls.

    We also need to ask why such issues still find resonance in the community. Is it because the Indian state, its cover-up of the events of 1984, the pogrom and state protection of the abusers which keep such issues and grievances alive, 23 years later. However much states like Pakistan or militant sikhs in the west try to cause trouble, it sinks into comparism with the role hitherto of the Indian state.

    The evidence presented in regards to militant Sikh groups linking up with Al-Qaida was very slim. Although there have been cases of groups linking up with Kashmir separatists, which is hardly surprising, on the whole, the two groups operated quite independently.

    Excellent report by Amardeep Bassey nonetheless.

  12. Jay — on 26th February, 2008 at 9:22 pm  

    Surprise surprise, Another biased, anti sikh documentary made up to please the indian government. I admire how the reporter ‘forgot’ to mention that one of the ‘apostates’ that the sikhs want to get rid is a rapist and a murderer. the CBI has enough evidence to convict the bloke but is prevented by the state.

  13. harvinder — on 27th February, 2008 at 12:18 am  

    True Jay,

    i mean he came out with so much crap, he could have mentioned the fact KPS Gill killed innocent Sikhs, Beant singh was blown up because he was KPS Gill’s bum chum and took part in the killings.

    This is why people like Jagtar Singh Hawara are held in high regard.

    I seriously think KPS Gill’s time will come, the biggest terrorist Punjab has seen is walking around scott free. Lets do a docu on that!

    On a side note, i would like to see some interviews with people really affected post ’84.

  14. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:28 am  

    There have been programmes on what happened in 1984 on the BBC before. This was a separate issue. Although the paranoid defensiveness and denial of some here is only to be expected, slandering reports like this as being anti-Sikh. No, it’s anti-extremism. If you can’t tell the difference, you need to learn the difference.

    It’s long overdue that this issue was paid attention to. I am glad that people are waking up to it.

  15. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:29 am  
  16. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:45 am  

    Shaheedi funds have always been suspicious and the lack of transparency in temple accounts just lets groups take advantage and misuse funds.

    Let’s do something about it and not baulk when this needs to be said and investigated. Do you really find it unbelievable that money from various guru ka golak’s couldn’t make its way to these sources? I can believe it. This needs to be traced and dealt with.

    If the FBI and other agencies are getting involved expect the pulling up of networks and the money trail wherever it is being exposed. It will happen whether you or I or anyone else like it or not.

  17. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:55 am  

    Overall it is an excellent documentary. The overview it gives of the mess that is some Gurdwara funds is particularly clear.

  18. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:59 am  

    Income of between £400,000 to £500,000 every year went missing from Southall Gurdwara between 1984 to 1993 when the Khalistanis controlled it.

  19. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 3:20 am  

    What this report highlights to me if the urgent need to have Sikhs employed by the Charity Commission and by agencies like the police who are able to identify what is going on in certain Gurdwaras and deal with it. The Charity Commission has teeth and it needs to use them but one of the things it needs to do is be in a position to know what is going on demand transparency and accountancy in certain Gurdwaras. The tools are there in these state institutions to bring rogue elements to heel and prevent misuse of funds. They need to be directed properly and rules have to be systematically enforced and areas of concern identified and this can be done by the Charity Commission employing Sikhs who understand what is going on.

  20. Surinder — on 27th February, 2008 at 3:21 am  

    Dal Khalsa UK Press Release

    Dal Khalsa UK Condemns the programme aired on BBC Radio 4 as a smear campaign agianst the UK Sikh Coummiunity,this was uncalled for and further alienates the Sikhs in Britain.

    Sikhs were compared to Al Qaeda and it was also said Sikhs have made alliances with Al Qaeda,this is a very very dangerous thing to say ,in terms of what the Sikh Community here in the UK and in the world might face,your average American or European will not know the difference between a Sikh and Al qaeda member,but with a Panjab Police officer saying on BBC Radio 4 that Sikhs are with Al Qaeda further increases the risk of Sikhs being attacked and smeared by uneducated people in the Western World.

    This programe is in direct response to the UK Sikhs,launching a campaign to Ban the RSS Hindu Terror group and to freeze it funds.This has all been co ordinated by the Indian Govt,Anti Sikh groups in the UK,Biased reporters Sunny Hundal (UK Equivalent of Kim Bolan Canada),and members of the Sikh community such as Himmat Singh Sohi Sri Guru Singh Sabha Southall/Commitee members (Who atteneded RSS Function in Wembley last year,note the programme claimed he attended a Mandir,it was not a Mandir,but a community hall in which Hitler Worshipping members of the RSS were honoured)
    The BBC on a number of occasions has been emailed and contacted to cover the RSS campaign but has refused to do so.

    While Sikhs talk of banning Hindu terror groups in the UK and freezing their funds & assets ,all of a sudden this programme appears accusing Sikhs of funding terrorism.The programme did not show what the Indian govt is doing nor what the Sikhs believe,instead it was biased and tragedy’s such as Air India bombing ,Ludhiana Cinema Bombings were blamed on Sikhs,who have nothing to do with these atrocities.

    Words,quotes and videos were taken out of context to make it seem that Sikhs are terrorists ,and are building terror cells in the UK,Sikhs are not a threat to the UK we live here in peace and are law abiding people.The most worrying part of the programme was comparing Sikhs to Al Qaeda and claiming UK born Sikh get training in Pakistan ,this is 110% untrue and are utter lies by the producers and Panjab Police.Everyone knows how heavily fortified the India Pakistan border is a cat can’t even cross it let alone Sikhs wearing turbans and beards who stand out.

    We ask all Sikhs to remain calm and to unite at this time,
    there is no doubt that this programme was in direct response to the Ban The RSS campaign,to divert attention from it ,and to blame Sikhs for bombings,terror attacks,and to make Sikhs public enemy number 1 in the British public.While Sikhs in the UK are exposing the RSS for their terrorist activities across the UK,the internet,and at local Gurdwaras mysteriously the Panjab Police and Govt dream up stories of Sikhs funding terror,bombing cinemas ,bombing planes,UK Born Sikhs training in Pakistan,and claim Sikhs who ask for Self Determination /Khalistan are terrorists attacking UK Gurdwara commitees.

    Sikh Freedom groups have never killed innocents and have falsely been accused and blamed without any proof,there is no Militant activity in the Panjab,it does not exist /Sikh Freedom rallys in London were made to look like terror meetings in which ‘banned groups’, were involved in,it was made to look like Sikhs are a growing threat to the UK,this is pathetic.

    This has all come at such a time when Sikhs in the UK are waking up to reality and the need for Freedom from Indian oppresion,the national/International media have covered this pathetic news story and spread it everywhere,it is up to is now to react in a swift calm manner .

    I appeal to all Sikhs in the UK to take a stand against this smear campaign and ask all Sikh groups across the country,to speak out against it,make press releases,and complain to the BBC.

    complaint BBC hotline
    Phone:

    08700 100 222*
    email
    fileon4@bbc.co.uk
    Online feedback form

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file…95924.stm#email

    DAL KHALSA UK

    ———————————————————————————

    For those who did not listen to the show here is the link ,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod….?radio4/fileon4

  21. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 3:36 am  

    How hilarious to see the incoherent, rambling, stupid, paranoid, slanderous agitation of the Dal Khalsa extremists turn up here and beg for people to complain about a very valid and carefully constructed piece of BBC journalism authored by a Sikh journalist. Complain all you want, you’ll be laughed out of town.

  22. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 3:54 am  

    But let’s not be too simplistic in thinking all separatists would go this far and join with Al-Qaida

    I agree with this Parvinder.

    However, I expect that it is a loose affiliation with an organisation like Lashkar-e-Toiba which focuses its attention on jihad in Kashmir, and that on a wider level, Lashkar has become integrated into the al-Qaeda network. These are natural synergies between Lashkar and other terrorist groupings operating in Pakistan. It is a fact that Khalistanis have been sponsored by Pakistan. The level of ‘collaboration’ between Lashkar and other groups is murky, to say the least.

  23. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 3:55 am  

    I refer to violent militant Khalistani extremists in the above post. Not those Human Rights groups who legitimately campaign for state accountability during the 1980′s in Punjab. But all this just makes it more urgent that people speak out against this.

  24. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 27th February, 2008 at 9:51 am  

    At the end of the day, Armadeep Bassey is a typical new breed Asian journalist trying to make a name for himself by sensationalising his Asian background, this is typical for most Asian journalists in western media (what say you Mr Hundal?).

    It’s almost laughable that these few Brit Asian journalists make a documentary telling some tall stories that the present day Sikh infrastructure even possess the organisation skills or intelligence of carrying out some kind of terrorist attack. I mean who’s really got the time in between knocking each others turbans off during those great Gurdwara committee election times. There are not enough brain cells between these leaders who currently run the UK Gurdwaras.

    I thought the whole Radio 4 programme was nothing more than immature self created propaganda in its most basic sense where over exaggerated information was presented in order to influence the audience. Armadeep Bassey obviously presented facts selectively to give loaded messages in order to produce a hysterical rather than rational response to the information presented.

  25. Deep Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:18 am  

    Was this recorded and is there a link someone could provide where one may listen to the talk.

    Thanks,

    Deep Singh.

  26. Deep Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:32 am  

    RE: 26,

    Sorry – the page wasn’t loaded properly, only the first 2 posts were visible at the time of writing.

  27. Parvinder Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:41 am  
  28. Parvinder Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 11:00 am  

    I agree with Sukhi, we shouldn’t put our heads in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong with Gurdwara committee and their funds. This is a serious subject and I’m glad the programme brought it out.

    On the other hand, there were problems with the programme too. The Sohi story was inaccurate and too much was put into the views of both the Punjab police chief and the Delhi based think tank. It was a tad sensationist but nevertheless this debate needs to be had in a calm and mature way without people calling others Anti-Sikh.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the Dal Khalsa the same organisation that was established by Congress leaders like Zail Singh and Sanjay Gandhi in order to divide the Akali Dal administration?
    See dateline: May 1, 1982
    http://www.sikhtimes.com/sikhism_timeline.html

  29. Harjinder singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 11:33 am  

    WELL DONE SUNNY!

    Its about time these extremists got exposed, they are giving the panth a bad name.

    i mean look at these extremsit websites, anyone visiting them would think we are jsut liek muslims!

    PS : theres an idiot called Sarpanch on sikhsangat websites makin all kinds of silly comments about you personally and the programme itself.

    I think websites like saintsoldiers.net, khalistan.net and sikhsangat shud also be exposed, ps the sikh politics section on that site is only visibel when u r a member , thats where a lot of the rubbish is.

    I must also add that youngsters are greatly Influenced byt eh propogande posted on youtube anf these sites by monkeys liek sarpanch and militant singh.

    KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

  30. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 27th February, 2008 at 11:33 am  

    As a member of the Brit Sikh community, I can honestly say we give these journalists a certain amount of ammunition to work with. Putting people like Avtar S Sangera a self appointed “babbar lion” forward as spokesman was one ridiculous move. In the UK, we have had some embarrassing collective representation of Sikh leadership over the last 20 years. Admittedly some have managed to do nothing more than pull out kirpans, pull each others turbans off and manipulate the funds of the golak. Back those backward/unSikh actions with some kind of fabricated motivation for terrorism and the media have got all the material they need to write something hysterical about the Sikh community. To the average white person, you can’t get a more aggressive looking person than a Sikh male with his big turban, long beard and long kirpan. Most people would want to believe that under every Sikh male is a brutal terrorist waiting to come out and it doesn’t help when we Sikhs so easily play into their stereotypes.

    I am not arguing the fact that we don’t have corruption within our Gurdwara institutes. I don’t deny we have some nutcase preachers walking around in our community. I don’t deny we have no problems leading our lives in the UK. But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.

  31. Deep Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 11:40 am  

    Harjinder Singh wrote:

    “i mean look at these extremsit websites, anyone visiting them would think we are jsut liek muslims!”

    Please could you elucidate what you mean.

    Thanks,

    Deep Singh.

  32. Parvinder Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

    On a lighter note, will our separatist comrades be prepared to crown Mr Goddard, the next King of the Punjab?

    http://www.punjabheritage.org/cultural-heritage/test-reveals-white-debt-collector-from-halifax-is-great-great-grandson-of-last-king-of-the-sikhs-101.html

  33. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 27th February, 2008 at 12:22 pm  

    Quote from article above: Dr Ajay Sahni, from the independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi said interrogation of Sikh terror suspects revealed that British Sikh recruits had also visited the training camps. He said: “We are aware that at least about 100 Sikh radical elements, just from Europe and the UK alone, have trained in Pakistan-based terror camps.

    Out of curiosity if you google “Institute of Conflict Management in Delhi” (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/icm/index.html)
    you can see it is an organisation set up by, and headed up by, KPS Gill so it’s essentially a mouthpiece for the Punjab police. But the R4 programme failed to mention that.

  34. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

    At the end of the day, Armadeep Bassey is a typical new breed Asian journalist trying to make a name for himself by sensationalising his Asian background, this is typical for most Asian journalists in western media (what say you Mr Hundal?)

    Pathetic, and laughable. Whenever something comes up that you don’t like, play the race hate card, play the Uncle Tom card. Absolutely laghable and pathetic. Deal with the facts and don’t indulge in brain dead slander.

  35. Sukhi — on 27th February, 2008 at 12:39 pm  

    Parvinder

    Let’s separate the two strands.

    Everyone knows that there are potential idiots out there who congregate in Lahore and clink glasses of lassi with ISI contacts. That’s a separate thread and if there is evidence for any of that going on anywhere, they need to be not only condemned but routed out of society.

    The mismanagement of Gurdwarey is partly a separate issue and the attempt to muscle in on committees, the intimidation and dirty politics has to be addressed. We cannot trust that those disputes are only because of ego and selfish pride. At some level there is an attempt at ideological infiltration. With the Charity Commission there are the tools to deal with this. They can follow the paper trails and they can subject commitees to scrutiny. Anything dodgy happening they have powers all the way to shut-down until houses are put in order. This issue has to be dealt with because most people I speak to have had enough of this nonsense.

  36. harvinder — on 27th February, 2008 at 1:15 pm  

    ‘deal with the facts’

    i havent heard any facts. its all hearsay. Random numbers, companies headed by KPS Gill interviews with bogus people.

    its ridiculous.

    Harjinder why expose khalitani websites? theres no harm in people expressing an opinion on a sikh homeland. these sites are not saying go bomb india are they?

    you are full of shit, its certified. you might aswell extract your tongue firmly out of sunnys ass. the problem with the ‘panth’ is nutless fruitcakes like urself who wont stand up for your religion, and will probably land a firm kiss on kps gill’s rear end if u met him.

  37. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 27th February, 2008 at 2:37 pm  

    Sukhi,

    In response to your post #35. Apologies for winding you up but when does Mr Bassey and the other ambitious Asian journalists report on the niceties of their ancestral cultural. Very rarely are they commissioned by the pro Western media to express the postivity of Asian cultures, it’s always home in on the honour killings, the threat to terrorism, forced marriages, unhappy Asians.

    The IRA has been responsible for more terrorist attacks on British soil, more than any other terrorist organisation however you don’t see contempt and hatred towards White Catholics. Deep down this is really to do with prejudices and racism and I would even go as far as to say jealousies towards an emigrant group who has done rather well socially and economically whilst still maintaining their distinct roots.

    Why did Bassey intentionally choose a less articulate spokesperson like Avtar S Sangera, was he purposely made to speak in his broken English as a pose to Punjabi. Interestingly Bassey didn’t embarrass Himmat Sohi by asking him to speak in English? Did Mr Bassey interview some of the more strong articulate voices from the British Sikh Community and choose to drop these as they didn’t support the view he wanted to portray in this documentary?

    I accuse BBC radio 4 and Bassey of creating an imaginary threat. The sensationalized allegations are completely unsubstantiated. Allegations as serious as those presented are simply speculation and Bassey should produce his evidence linking his preposterous claims of Al Qeeda training camps training young British Sikhs. If it is all based on claims from the “Institute of Conflict Management in Delhi” which is headed my the notorious KPS Gill, then Bassey must be more naive then you think.

    In response to you post #36 regarding the Charity Commission having the tools to deal with the politics of Gurdwara committees then I think you are living in laa dee daa land. The CC take a stand back every time these Religious disputes take place, that’s why we are in this situation. Ask any Gurdwara committee who has attempted to get the CC to intervene.

  38. Singh — on 27th February, 2008 at 5:45 pm  

    KHALISTAN ZINDABAD

  39. Manni — on 27th February, 2008 at 5:57 pm  

    It amuses me how sikhs point the finger at the indian government when the government is headed by a Sikh himself.

  40. Esha Dhillon — on 27th February, 2008 at 6:39 pm  

    I am a sikh. I was born and raised in US and am in UK rite now for work purposes. Can someone please explain to me what ‘khalistan’ it is that we seem to be demanding? A new country? Where? Punjab in India as a new country? Can’t we see what’s happening to Pakistan? How can Punjab self-sustain as a country with militant leaders? Surely it’s not that little area of Punjab where majority doesn’t want to be separate from India that can be Khalistan. There must be some other piece of land someplace else? Out with it, guys. Where is this new Khalistan supposed to be? I surely would like to know.

  41. Esha Dhillon — on 27th February, 2008 at 6:45 pm  

    I also concur with Manni’s point. The government is headed by a Sikh leader. Who are these ‘pseudo-sikhs’ pointing fingers at? I call them ‘pseudo-sikhs’ cuz as far as I know, my gurus died for the Hindu faith! My gurus would never approve of their followers, the true Sikhs, to kill and murder in name of religion. My gurus died themselves and sacrificed their own families to maintain peaceful co-existence of all religions. People who moved out of India know nothing of what’s happening back home and have ideas that have neither rational thought nor the peaceful message of Sikh religion behind them! Regret is what i feel when I read/hear of such extremism in any religion for religion is supposed to love all, and accept and tolerate others who are different.

  42. viva la revolucion — on 27th February, 2008 at 6:49 pm  

    You and your Bassey friend are simply stooges to the white, using false claims to try to make a break at the expense of your community, not that you even are sikhs!

    Your rubbish show had no evidence to back up your claims.
    I hope you and your Bassey friend enjoy your success as sell-outs.

  43. viva la revolucion — on 27th February, 2008 at 6:51 pm  

    And another thing, if that coward had any balls he would have made it a live show, with the possibility of calling in.
    Offcourse, he knew that he would not be able to counter a single argument.

  44. Esha Dhillon — on 27th February, 2008 at 7:06 pm  

    And not to mention, if a ‘khalistan’ is ever established on this to-be-discovered piece of land big enough and self-sustaining enough to be a country, all inhabitants would finish themselves within decades. Reason why? Well, have a look at Punjab’s sex ratio. Punjabis are wiping out the daughters. It’s a shame that despite being the most financially successful state in the country, we have the worst sex ratio. Punjabis in UK and Canada are not far behind. Female foeticide is rampant here as well. Why don’t we try to fix problems that ACTUALLY ARE problems first before jumping on the bandwagon of religious propaganda and spend millions of pounds on causes that will bring nothing but destruction to humanity? We are committing FEMALE GENOCIDE as we speak (have a look at http://unwantedgirlchild.blogspot.com)!!! Why don’t sikh leaders come forward and tackle that instead?? Why don’t women give off their gold chains to save their own sex? Why isn’t there that kind of funding for fight against domestic abuse? Why why why why why!!! It really pisses me off! Done for the night.

  45. harvinder — on 27th February, 2008 at 8:00 pm  

    manmohan singh has only been prime minister for a couple of years u dozy gits.

    u expect sikhs to forget all the human rights abuses over the last 25 years?

    he is also leader of the congress party (or puppet of sonia gandhi some would say) who caused all the abuses.

    i suggest you read up before making these comments.

    Mr Chauhan i have two words for you..KHALISTAN ZINDABAAD!!

  46. michael richardson — on 27th February, 2008 at 8:06 pm  

    Hello,

    I clicked on the link to listen to the show. it was interesting to listen to. Anyone who knows the background of what has taken place in the history of post-independence india and pakistan could see that the standards of journalism were not that good. He was clearly asking much tougher questions of, and probing into Avtar Singh Sanghera and meanwhile accepting whatever the spokesman of Punjab Police was saying as gospel which is pretty ridiculous considering both are as extreme as each other. If anything, i doubt Avtar Singh has done anything in his life other than disgracefully knock a few turbans off at the Temple unlike the Punjab Police who have taken part in systematic genocide.

    I agree whole-heartedly with his uncovering of those who are causing fights in Gurdwaras. However this is part of a wider cultural problem in the Punjabi community as these people moved mainly from Pubs into Gurdwaras and continue to behave in the same loutish behaviour. Amardeep Bassey started off well but then totally missed the fact that although the Federation and Babbars had some control over Gurdwaras that was mainly in the 1980s and now it is Serious Organised Criminal Gangs that are taking over. Himmat S. Sohi of the Southall Gurdwara and Ravinder Powar in Birmingham rely on these Organised Criminal Gangs of drunken punjabi thugs to maintain their grip on temples which they gained while beating the ailing old Babbars out of temples. An investigation of these Gangmasters like Ravinder Powar of Powar Builders, Tari Kandola who runs SP, Himmat Sohi is needed because they have become multi-millionaires in a very short time by siphoning funds from Temples, Drug dealing, bringing illegal immigrants into the country and getting them to sell drugs, running protection rackets, etc.

    Hence, I think the Radio 4 programme started well but was intentionally taken towards a very negative angle by someone who clearly has some kind of bias against the community at large. Let’s not forget it isn’t these Babbar groups but the community at large which is feeling the brunt of these tabloid headlines and if an innocent Sikh gets killed in a race hate attack as a result of this then that will be a sad state of affairs.

  47. Sunda — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:06 pm  

    I am personally not a supporter of the whole Khalistan thing so please dont categorise my feedback based on that. I think that the radio programme attempted to convince the listener into believing non-existent problem. Amardeep Bassey seems to have managed to convince the BBC that there is a major problem with Sikh violence and surprisingly the BBC seem to have bought it.

    If Sikhs were initially accused of bombing Air India in 1985 then those Sikhs were also acquitted. Shouting statements that Sikhs in the UK fund terrorism through Gurdwara Community donations are dangerous statements with repercussions for the visible Sikh community. Completely unsubstantiated claims that Sikhs are forging links with Islamist terror groups and Gurdwaras are becoming breeding grounds for Abu Hamza style extremist preaching is a malicious lie. Will Amardeep Bassey provide evidence about where this happens? These sensational claims have a huge effect on the average public opinion on Sikhs. As a Sikh I have had to experience abuse due to mistaken identity after 9/11. Irresponsibly broadcasting these concocted statements only increases the risk of innocent Sikhs getting attacked by the ignorant troublemakers. Provide real evidence that Sikhs support or fund terrorism and are with Al Qaeda. At a time when the government is sending advisories to its ministers to not talk of ‘Islamic’ terrorism, we have license fee paid media dreaming up an imaginary ‘Sikh’ terror cell.

  48. Manni — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:11 pm  

    Well it doesn’t help by sikh youths wearing hoodies based on Khalistan and AK47′s does it? Aren’t those very same youths brain washed into the whole support of Khalistan, isn’t that seen as a means of extremism.

    This really is an issue for sikhs living in western countries like UK, US and Canada where many people have fundamental views, yet majority of Sikhs in Punjab, India don’t seem to have any problems with it and are not in support of a Khalistan.

  49. Sunda — on 27th February, 2008 at 10:37 pm  

    Do people think that having a view on Khalistan can only be backed by a violent/extremist attitude? I am not big on the Khalistan movement because for me at this stage of my life it’s a non issue and unimportant. I live in a poltically active part of West Midlands where most local Sikhs believe passionatly about the Sikh homeland dream, this includes mothers, kids and elders. Are these people terrorists or extremists because I interact with them everyday of my life? Some of them like to wear those hoodies, more like a fashion statement than a political statement. Ok they may be a bit immature and nostaligically look at the whole 80′s thing like something out of an action movie, but they are not interested in blowing up buildings or joining the Al Qeada.

  50. nobodys heros — on 28th February, 2008 at 1:30 am  

    Sunny is so anti sikh . Would al queada join want a load of kuffers, defeats their objective

  51. Sukhi — on 28th February, 2008 at 1:41 am  

    God almighty this thread must have been linked to on one of the fundamentalist forums — that person identifying himself as michael richardson is straight out of sikhsangat.com.

    What’s the point in letting these paranoid conspiracy theorising head-in-the-sand chanting louts contribute to a thread with nothing more than slogans and posturing, and spinning moronic paranoid idiocy about ‘self hating Sikhs’, ‘anti Sikh’ and racist trash imputing Uncle Tom motives for the reports?

    Why doesn’t the moderator exercise some control here?

  52. Sunny — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:08 am  

    LOL. I know, SS and a whole load of other forums have been linking here and writing rubbish. Hence the invasion of nutters.

    Harjinder: PS : theres an idiot called Sarpanch on sikhsangat websites makin all kinds of silly comments about you personally and the programme itself.

    Thanks, yeah I know about SS and about that poster in particular.

  53. Sukhi — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:22 am  

    Why don’t you just delete the sloganeers and those who make comments about Amardeep Bassey or Sunny Hundal being ‘anti-Sikh’ then? If the morons and the ostriches want to debate by slander on their paranoid little forums they can do so, but why allow them to squeak about things here?

  54. Sukhi — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:47 am  

    In response to you post #36 regarding the Charity Commission having the tools to deal with the politics of Gurdwara committees then I think you are living in laa dee daa land.

    Harvinder, if you read my posts correctly you would understand that I said the CC SHOULD be doing more about this issue, and that they should FOCUS on it more. They have the statutory tools to deal with it, they just need the will, knowledge and expertise. Concerned Sikhs have to approach them and campaign for this, take it up with their MPs and bring awareness of the problem.

    Why did Bassey intentionally choose a less articulate spokesperson like Avtar S Sangera

    Avtar Sangera wasn’t chosen as a spokesman for anyone. He was interviewed because he made provocative speeches at the Hyde Park rally calling for individuals to be ‘wiped off the face of Punjab’ and was also connected with a banned terrorist organisation, Babbar Khalsa.

  55. Sukhi — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:50 am  

    Sunny Hundal

    I have sent you an e-mail please check your inbox. I sent an attachment with it so it might go into your spam so check there if it’s not in your inbox. Thanks.

  56. Sunny — on 28th February, 2008 at 3:27 am  

    Thanks, got it and will respond soon.

    At the end of the day, Armadeep Bassey is a typical new breed Asian journalist trying to make a name for himself by sensationalising his Asian background, this is typical for most Asian journalists in western media (what say you Mr Hundal?).

    Rupinder – ever done a bit of digging around Gurdwara politics lately? You’ll soon realise what a can of worms they are the vested interests that run them.

    The alternative to your ‘theory’ above is that people like Amardeep, and myself, want to expose the corruption and thuggish behaviour of Sikhs within the community. The only way idiots can respond is by calling them ‘sellouts’. But then what else do you have, when you know the charges of corruption and thuggish behaviour are so true?

  57. Sukhi — on 28th February, 2008 at 3:49 am  

    you are full of shit, its certified. you might aswell extract your tongue firmly out of sunnys ass. the problem with the ‘panth’ is nutless fruitcakes like urself who wont stand up for your religion, and will probably land a firm kiss on kps gill’s rear end if u met him.

    Harvinder, you really are a pathetic, brainless, knee jerking paranoid little thug aren’t you? Foul mouthed, bigoted, morally coward, full of nothing but anger, hunting for traitors for whom you’d like nothing but intimidate and bully. No wonder your anger is out of control. Your comments should be read by everyone as an example of the mindless extremist foul-mouthed thug that Amardeep Bassey so brilliantly exposed in his documentary. So pathetic.

  58. Surinder — on 28th February, 2008 at 5:18 am  

    Sunny Hundal

    Prove to me Sikhs bombed AIR INDIA
    Prove to me Sikhs bombed the Cinema in Ludhiana
    Give me proof Sikhs fund terrorism from UK Shores
    Prove to me UK Sikhs go Pakistan and train
    Prove to me Al Qaeda have joined Babbar Khalsa – (A group which no longer exists).

    Prove to me these alegations and I will shut up

    Avtar Singh Sanghera is a sevadar of the Panth
    History is witness to what Avtar Singh said, he is correct in what he said ,in no way did he say go bomb places or go raise funds,he stated facts,we want these Rapist Killers who have raped women out of Panjab.

    You and your BBC Loosers have tried to Slander the UK Sikh community,what you trying to do lead it?
    ha lets see you try,Sikhs have been living here long before you came to this country Mr Hundal,You coconuts make out OoOoO Sikhs are the new threat the new al qaeda connection as tht BBC looser said,I remember when the respect 4 Guru Ji campaign happened you did the same then got exicted and jumped ,ooooo fanatics this that,then 2006 rally oh Sikhs burned a flag – wooow what a tragedy ,So what if Sikhs burned the Indian tri colour,they have every right to,burning a dirty 3 coloured cloth is nothing compared to rape of thousands of women,the blowing up of the worlds 5 th largest religions holy shrine,the wiping out of a whole generation,and the Genocide of the Sikh Community by the Brahmin mentality Govt of India.

    You bunch of looosers,pathetic Journalists,I wonder how you sleep at night with your lies,and how you got to your Gurdwara,you probably see a gyani with a Kirpan too big and call him a fanatic,or you probabaly see a pic of Shaheed Bhindranwale and think oh the original Osama,

    ,so lost you are,You the BBC ,Panjab Police,and everyone else can keep dreaming up lies,about Al Qaeda and Sikhs,and UK Sikhs funding terrorism,

    You can’t prove nothing

    LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS LIERS,

    If you and the BBC continue rubbish like this don’t be surprised if you see Sikhs protesting in London agianst these lies.

    Go and do some real journalism expose the Indian govt for what it is

  59. douglas clark — on 28th February, 2008 at 6:14 am  

    Surinder,

    It would be:

    Liars, etc. Please note the ‘a’. Rather than the ‘e’.

    Are you saying that it wasn’t Khalistani seperatists that did this? Y’know, downing Flight 182? Who else is in the frame? Who else would have cause?

  60. KSingh — on 28th February, 2008 at 7:40 am  

    Douglas have you read Soft Target regarding Air India. Some interesting relevations on Indian Intelligence (RAW)activities in Canada.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_Target_(book)

    The documentary was fairly poor , had trouble trying to listen to it as itwas so boring. The one thing it did do was give some of the human rights violators a stage and give some ammunition to the right wing press (The Sun of all papers)

    Oh was that what this site was against.

  61. viva la revolucion — on 28th February, 2008 at 8:05 am  

    I think Surinder’s comments should recieve an adequate response, I’m sure its nothing for you courageous and brilliant journalists ;)

    fyi, babbar khalsa was known (at the time it actually existed) to have the most strict entry requirements over any other Khalistani group, you had to be Amritdhari and know the 5 prayers of an Amritdhari by heart, among other things.
    A statement such as BK joining with non-sikhs (Al-queda) who they would indeed consider terrorists is laughable (and vice versa I suppose).
    There really was no solid evidence put forward during this programme.

    ps. I have a question in regards to Mr.Sanghera, was he given the option of speaking in panjabi, like Mr. Sohi?

  62. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 9:06 am  

    ‘manmohan singh has only been prime minister for a couple of years u dozy gits.

    u expect sikhs to forget all the human rights abuses over the last 25 years?’

    What human rights abuses??? The riots of 1984. What was behind them? POLITICS! PERSONAL VESTED INTERESTS OF SOME PETTY POLITICIANS! I haven’t yet faced discrimination in India for being a Sikh. I’ve lived there for 3 years and there were hindu students in the school which i went to (a sikh family run school) and there were never differences between students cuz of our religions! Religion never mattered! That’s what the greatness of Punjab is. We are a tolerant race. So, why do politicians’ games skew our thinking? They got what they wanted out of it. We were the ones left fighting with our blood for a decade to follow!!! My naana ji’s first cousin who was a prominent sikh himself was gunned down by these so-called Sikh terrorists! For what???? Some money???? They weren’t fighting for any religion. They were fighting for MONEY. Fighting for religion does NOT ask for bloodshed! No, sir, I won’t agree that EVEN IF there was any human rights abuse, any religion would approve of bloodshed of innocent people in response. Certainly not my religion, sir, certainly not sikhi.

    What other human rights abuses were there in the past 25 years? Please educate me cuz maybe even despite living in India in 90z, I might not have noticed. I never felt discriminated against and neither did any of my family no matter where we traveled in India. Blaming an entire country for what some handful of idiots did is like blaming all hindus for what Modi did in Gujarat. How narrow minded an approach is it!?

    And please refrain from being abusive. I am merely asking for a discussion, not a public show down. If you can’t argue, please don’t respond cuz I surely don’t have the energy to fight.

  63. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 9:11 am  

    and no one asked my question …

    Where is this self-sustaining country of Khalistan going to be? Are all sikhs from all over the world going to move there? i am really curious!!! Is BC in Canada going to be converted to Khalistan???? cuz that can surely self-sustain!! Where else?

  64. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 9:12 am  

    and no one ‘answered my question …

    Where is this self-sustaining country of Khalistan going to be? Are all sikhs from all over the world going to move there? i am really curious!!! Is BC in Canada going to be converted to Khalistan???? cuz that can surely self-sustain!! Where else?

  65. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 28th February, 2008 at 9:19 am  

    Sunny,

    In response to your post #57. As mentioned above, I am not arguing the fact that we don’t have corruption within our Gurdwara institutes. I don’t deny we have some nutcase preachers walking around in our community. I don’t deny we have no problems leading our lives in the UK. But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.

    I agree that the present infrastructure of Sikh political leadership does not give me much confidence, therefore I have no motivation to attach myself to any Khalistan campaign. But all I see in your constructive journalism when it comes to the Sikh community, is that you selectively hunt for the “can of worms” or talk yourself into creating the can with the worms in it.

    Mr Bassey and BBC need to provide real evidence, not hearsay or the Indian government’s theories or views that they want to believe.

    There’s no point thrashing out a subject while holding a particular viewpoint on the subject, and not applying neutral point of view to the process. I feel that a number of these over ambitious Asian Journalist are particular in this, like the politicians they dismiss the real structured non biased opinions and only highlight the incoherent points.

  66. douglas clark — on 28th February, 2008 at 9:24 am  

    K Singh,

    Yup, I know what a soft target is. I am not at all clear who else would have seen it as a worthwhile target and not claimed responsibility.

    Personally, I have no idea who blew up flight 182, but someone did. That, at least, seems to be beyond dispute.

    The point of my post was that Surinder has gone on the offensive. Leaving quite glaring gaps in his or her defence.

    So, again, who else would have had cause? Are you saying it was a ‘false flag’ operation?

  67. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 28th February, 2008 at 10:09 am  

    Esha,

    I grew up during 80s/90s in the UK and can only rely what we used to hear within in the Sikh community. My interpretation was that Khalistan initially nothing more that a self created slogan to establish a threat to the Indian government in response to whatever issues were taking place in Punjab at the time. The rise in militancy was a rollercoaster created by a mix of the Indian government propaganda, politicians, criminals and genuine victims of state police brutality. In this time of anxiety many miscalculated, unforgiving mistakes were made from misinterpretations and blatant exploitations. We cannot deny that tens of thousands of innocents suffered during this period, Sikhs and non Sikhs alike.

    There can be no Khalistan or Sikh homeland without a strong foothold within the practicing of Sikh morals, ethics and ideals which at the moment I fail to see collectively in the global Sikh community. I think as it is, we struggle to maintain Sikh values within the running of Gurdwaras and I see that as a clear message from God to get our own houses in shape before we campaign for any homeland.

    Unfortunately, my experiences as a practicing Sikh is that partly due to our outwardly appearance and various opinions, we are very easily stereotyped, pigeon-holed and typecast into believing we have an extremist view. I sometimes feel that the people are always waiting for a Sikh to slip up so that they can claim that they “told us so” and tarnish the Sikh community as a group of “village idiots”. The aftermath of 9/11 was experienced by the Sikh males, who had to bear some physical and verbal abuse as well as being seen as suspicious. The first person arrested on a train in the US after 9/11 was a Sikh male and the first person murdered in retaliation was a Sikh male. Amardeep Bassey and the BBC can make tall claims that UK Sikhs fund terrorist activities and then they can then carry on with the next news story. But it’s the common Sikh person who has to face the ever suspecting world.

  68. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 10:39 am  

    More power to your response, Rupinder. Thank you for a well balanced answer.

    I am not aware of whether UK sikhs are funding terrorism or not, and neither do I care to believe anything media has to say. All I hope and pray is that we learn to maintain Sikh values within the running of our gurdwaras first, like you said. I was in Houston a couple of months ago and it was rather interesting to see that for 2500-3000 sikh families in Houston, there were SEVEN gurdwaras. I hope we learn to live in unity first whilst leaving our ego and power struggles away from Sikhi. We need to learn to respect our daughters and mothers first, and not kill them in name of honor after and before birth. List goes on. Hopefully, someone would listen.

    Thanks once again. I truly appreciate your response. It’s rare to see a fair-headed argument in discussions involving ‘religion’.

    Cheers.

  69. Harjinder singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 10:58 am  

    ALL THESE EXTREMISTS WEBSITES AND STUFF ON YOUTTUBE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN.

    IM GLAD THEY ARE GETTING NEGATIVE EXPOSURE AS THEY GIVE US HARD WORKING, PEACEFULL PROFESSIONAL EDUCATED SIKSH A BAD NAME.

    WE HAVE WORKED FOR GENERATIONS TO GET THE BRITISH PEOPLES RESPECT AND NOW BECAUSE OF THESE TWATS WE R SEEN AS TERRORISTS

  70. Parvinder Singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:11 am  

    ‘What human rights abuses??? The riots of 1984. What was behind them? POLITICS! PERSONAL VESTED INTERESTS OF SOME PETTY POLITICIANS!’

    Esha, you’re right. The abuses that occurred in India against the Sikh community were driven by politics and politicians, not the general Hindu community. Therefore the grievance is against the powers that be. In this, we have the support of many Hindus. Firstly, ‘the riots’ of 1984. The definition of it as a riot by the Indian government has for far too long mischaracterised it for what it was without any shadow of doubt, a massacre against the minority Sikh community. 23 years on, and the organisers have yet to be brought to justice.
    See: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1492

    But there’s more to just the pogroms of November 1984. Prior to it, in June 1984, the Golden Temple was attacked, supposedly against a handful of militants, but ended up in cold-blooded murder of thousands of innocent pilgrims. The following months, a reign of terror was unleashed in the villages of Punjab, codenamed Operation Woodrose where baptised Sikhs were officially labelled as terrorist, arrested, tortured and killed. The extra-judicial killings that occurred at the behest of Punjab Police chiefs like KPS Gill (who heads the so called independent Institute of Conflict Management in New Delhi, on whose allegations people are questioning here on this blog) took the lives of tens of thousands for a whole decade afterwards and have been well-documented by human rights groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
    See: http://www.solarider.org/dld/Kristallnacht.pdf
    http://www.youtube.com/1984TruthandJustice
    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1469

    On your question of Khalistan. I can’t answer as I do not subscribe to it. Most Sikhs want the above human rights abuses to be resolved and it’s India’s shame that it has to this date not done so.

    In #45 you raised the issue of Female genocide in the Punjab and general domestic abuse. Both of these issues are important, and you’re quite right to raise these also.

  71. curious? — on 28th February, 2008 at 12:16 pm  

    douglas,

    indian gov’t

  72. Yadvinder — on 28th February, 2008 at 12:28 pm  

    I too sense the futility of the call for Khalistan. Really what possible end could it have? Were it that Sikhs are marginalised in India and discriminated against, I would even understand. But guys, Sikhs are the MOST well off sections of society in India. I mean, my friends always tell me that you could roam all of India and still not find a Sikh beggar. My chest swelled with prode at that. Besides let me just top of my head see who we have as Sikhs in positions of power:
    PM – Manmohan Singh. Widely respected and admired in and out of India.
    Army chief Retd this year – J.J. Singh
    Head of Planning Commission – Montek Ahluwalia
    External Affairs Spokesperson – Navtej Sarna
    Scores (literally) of Business Leaders – Pharma, Tyres Technology you name it.

    I pity those delusional fools who think they need to be ‘elsewhere’. Really what more could they want. They can be the best in Industry and in Political life, what is the matter with these guys. Sure 1984 was bad but if anything, India is an equal opportunity offender killing Sikhs Muslims and Dalits in regular cycles. Just as we dont want the whole Sikh community to be labeled Terrorsit for teh actions of a few, so we should not label the whole of India for the actions of a few.
    Finally – I will leave you with the PM’s address in Rajya Sabha on the Sikh riots.
    http://pmindia.nic.in/RS%20speech.pdf

  73. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 1:09 pm  

    I can’t tell you how glad I am to see the above few comments, guys. I’ve been getting disillusioned for the past couple of days after reading this post, and after looking at a few sikh-extremist websites.

    Thank you, Parvinder. Thank you for all the links as well. I truly do respect the emotions and need for justice for all of those who were affected in years of terror inflicted by a (power-hungry) select few. However, there must be some other way to seek justice rather than resorting to means that would only cause more bloodshed. If getting justice means hurting more innocent people, is justice worth it? Why can’t we just bury it as a bitter past and learn lesson from it to never repeat the same process of blindly following criminals who are only hungry for power and money? That’s just my view. As for KPS Gill, it’s true that he is no angel. He has done plenty harm, but without him doing that, Punjab might’ve still been terrorized. I don’t know if KPS’s approach was the best approach but it was an approach that worked. Why should we, as a race/religion, even get to the point where someone like KPS has to commit mass murder? Why did Sikh terrorism start in the first place? What were they trying to achieve by murdering innocent people? What are they trying to achieve now?

    I remember one scene so clearly .. we were in India to visit my grandparents … Me and my father were coming back from an aunty’s house in our car … It was a busy intersection. A white gypsy appeared out of nowhere at an enormous speed and orange turbaned individuals in it started randomly firing at people while driving by and shouting Khalistan slogans. My dad ducked me to the car floor and the driver and him also ducked. After the gypsy passed by, we got out. There was a sikh sardar lying on the road in a pool of blood. Dad quickly sent me back to the car. I can never forget that sight. There was a lunch box lying on the ground besides his bicycle. He was probably returning home to his wife and kids from a day at work. Did his wife know that he won’t be returning home when she was packing his lunch in the morning? Did he know that the turban that he so proudly put on his head in the morning would mean nothing by the end of the day? I’ve lived through days when we were so scared of my nana ji being shot any day. He was a village sarpanch and a quite well known man in the villages around. He used to have security around him all the time. His death meant a lot to many people seeking his position of power around. There were few attempts at his life too. For what? For power? It just shakes me endless when I think of those days. Religion was the last thing that was on mind of these ruthless people. If KPS had to resort to the measures he did to alleviate terrorism from Punjab, more power to him. He is no way justified, but was there any other choice in the moment? Every day there were 30 killed, 70 killed … and everyone lived in fear. You never knew when you were going to be shot down. Wives were scared to let their husbands out of home. Kids didn’t want to go to school. What do you expect really? It surprizes me that people living in Canada and UK and those who didn’t live in india during days of terror pass judgments and seek justice and all that. People in Punjab instead are nonchalant about it all. They have lived through days of blood and gore, and no one in a sane mind would want it back. No one except those who gain from it.

    I get emotional just writing about it. I wish that the kids who are writing on these extremist sikh websites could’ve seen how it was to live in Punjab when violence for KHALISTAN was rife. Please please please please don’t bring it back again.

  74. Esha Dhillon — on 28th February, 2008 at 1:22 pm  

    Harjinder: you make an interesting point. I’m going to narrate yet another story … My father is a turban tying sikh. In late 1970′s, he was posted in Uttar Pradesh for his first job. Sometimes when we talk about days of terrorism, he sadly tells us, “There were days in late 1970′s in Uttar Pradesh, people used to get up in public buses to offer me (a Sardar) a seat because they thought bus would be safe with a sardar on it. (UP’s known for its bandits as i am sure u are aware) However, during terrorism days, people used to get OFF the bus if a Sardar got on it.” Isn’t it sad? All that our Gurus did, we single handedly wiped it by our murderous acts.

    Yadvinder, I totally agree. I was in India in December. Me and my husband traveled across the country for a month. It was after 10 years that I had gone back. Wherever I went, I got respect merely for being a Punjabi. I really didn’t see how sikhs are disadvantaged in India in any manner. They are very much a part of the mainstream, and are doing much better financially than any other state habitants. I went to a small town in Andhra Pradesh and there was a ‘Punjab house’ there if you would believe it. There wasn’t any haryana house or rajasthan house or uttar pradesh house but a Punjab House owned by a Sardar family in the depths of Telugu heartland. Couldn’t tell you how proud I was of him, the Sardar owner who had integrated into a culture so different from ours, and for the telugu people there who had accepted him open-heartedly. I am proud of being a Sikh, proud of being a Punjabi, and above all, proud of being an Indian!!

  75. Parvinder Singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:16 pm  

    I don’t agree with the tactics of people like KPS Gill as no policeman should be above the law, whatever the provocation. Human rights worker, Jaswant Singh Khalra uncovered mass cremations which one Indian judge descibed as ‘worse than genocide’. It was this case that eventually led to Khalra’s murder. I’m for a civilised India, not a police state. Watch Gurdas Maan’s Dil Hooya Pardes to see the real consequence of Gills’ policy.

    There is also evidence to suggest the police had their own groups carrying out sectarian killings. Nevertheless, if sikh groups carried them at any stage, they should be rightly condemned.

    My Masi, Masar and 3 cousins escaped with their lives during the pogroms of 1984 in Delhi. But at no stage then or since then did any of them have any hate against their Hindu neighbours, only the local congress leaders. It’s this that offers us hope and optimism that one day India will truly be secular which our Gurus would have wanted.

    Thanks for your post Esha, very informative.

  76. Parvinder Singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 2:18 pm  

    sorry, should read Gurdas Maan’s Des Hooya Pardes

  77. Sunny — on 28th February, 2008 at 3:05 pm  

    But to blow some isolated feudal UK Gurdwara committee clashes into a massive terrorist conspiracy and then use it as the basis of a documentary is irresponsible and complete melodrama.

    It’s not made into a massive conspiracy – but there are undeniable links between extremist groups here and Pakistani groups who share a common agenda. Why should they not be explored and exposed?

    I know how much propganda there is floating around about Muslim boys supposedly kidnapping and forcibly converting Sikh women… about how every Hindu is a secret RSS plant etc. I’m more critical than most people in the national press of Muslim extremist groups and the RSS and their affiliates here, so I don’t need lectures from people like Surinder about selling out. Its easy to hide behind anonymous forums and issue “press releases” and be an internet warrior.

    Remember that presenter at Punjab Radio who died after being attacked by religious nuts? I’m assuming you also know the same nuts went after the rest of his family too.

    People like yourself, who keep making excuses for religious fanatics and internet warriors like Surinder only contribute to the problem. There is a serious problem at Gurudwara level. There is a serious intellectual problem too – Sikh groups cannot tolerate criticism and there is no intellectual debate taking place about our role in society here and the values of Sikhism.

    Instead, people are obsessed by following through with reactionary and ill-conceived hukumnamas from the SGPC and Akal Takht.

    Tell me – which bit of what I said in the doc did you disagree with? You know all of its true. There are organisations using 1984 to get more money and power for themselves, and whipping up paranoia about Muslims and Hindus. And any criticism is seen as a Indian govt plot.

    It’s a shame how far the Sikh community in the UK has fallen. We’re not as bad as the Vancouver Sikhs, thank god, at least.

  78. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 28th February, 2008 at 4:15 pm  

    Sunny,

    Re: Post #78.

    I agree with your comments about the serious intellectual problem that “Sikh groups cannot tolerate criticism and there is no intellectual debate taking place about our role in society here and the values of Sikhism.” That’s something the ego driven need to overcome.

    On the point about Jasvir Singh from Punjab radio, I am pretty sure he’s still alive but again there was no valid reason to beat him up and there was nothing a good intellectual debate couldn’t have achieved.

    Your closing comment that the Sikh community in the UK have fallen is just your negative opinion and I disagree with blanket statement. If you are basing your opinion on these hot headed sporadic incidents that you like to home in on then they are so few that you can count them on your hand. These troublemakers are so isolated into small groups who still struggle to gain any mainstream support. It is the Punjabi/British media’s adverse publicity that makes them more notorious than they deserve to be and the reverse psychology of this is that they actually start gaining more support. R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign. It’s your media that gives them their platform not the Gurdwara stages where the president is too busy protecting his own turbans being knocked off by the opposition.

  79. Jagjeet — on 28th February, 2008 at 8:41 pm  

    The budhi of a Gursikh is different to the budhi of a manmukh, let them continue saying what they want, our job is to remember akaal purkh 24/7, if we do this, we will no whats right and whats wrong and everything will fall into place. Theres always going to be two groups arguing on this subject, best to leave these people chatting.

  80. Sunny — on 28th February, 2008 at 10:55 pm  

    R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign.

    This isn’t true. There were plenty of reports and discussions about them on web forums before the Asian media picked up on it. I had people emailig me saying that they had been personally threatened or knew of the stuff that was going on, but people were too afraid to talk about it openly.

    Unless the media exposes their agenda, how do you propose they be dealt with by the police? The police usually try and not do anything because they don’t want to be labelled as racist.

    Remember the big punch-up in Birmingham during Vaisakhi? You had the Babbar Khalsa, Shere Punjab, Sikh Federation and other people involved in a fight for a Gurudwara during the holiest of all festivals. That’s not just besthi, it is endemic of the problem.

    Incidentally, the ruckus at Southall Gurdwara wasn’t the fault of the media was it? There’s been fights and arguments between Sohi et al and the Lion Group for how many years now?

    It’s easy to blame the media… but the real problem is the village mentality that still pervades British Sikhs. Just look at “surinder” screaming and shouting above as a good example.

  81. Simmi Singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:00 pm  

    I’m a Sikh I don’t want Khalistan, I love India our prime minister is Sikh.
    Most guys on this board sound militant.

    Statements like the one below sound militant. It’s worrying because you guys don’t even think you’re militant but you sound it!

    “You and your journalists can keep trying to smear Sikhs but in the end you lot don’t represent it anyway,real Sikh leaders are Khalistanis ,you seriously think that the future generation of kids who dont know nothing will represent Sikhi on the world Platform i dnt thnik so,will you nah never,it will be the GurSikhs who Speak out agianst oppresion and for human rights like SANT JARNAIL SINGH JI KHALSA BHINDRANWALE who put his life down to save the Panth”

  82. harry101 — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:02 pm  

    can i say to sukhi u need to no the facts you are talking on here say,as far as mr bassi i would like to ask him or his supporters when he got caught in pakistan who did he go to for help and now he talks about them like im sorry if im not clear its just i dont want to giv to much info.

  83. harry101 — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:09 pm  

    sikh orgs can take flak as long as it is true we say that money goes missing from sikh gurudwara i ask u where can u go and get full meal for free u do no that it cost money,i agree sum gurudwara need to be asked the ?but not all and the way that program came out it sounds like every gurudwara is corrupt

  84. harry101 — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:18 pm  

    esha u must rememberwat sant ji said was far diff from wat u seen u cannot say that ppl do not get on the bandwagon and use the fight for freedom for there own personnel gain.sikh need our homeland sooner rather than later.sikhs fought against the british for years then they thought they had there homeland but in 1952 it all started again sikhs oppersion and killings so that is the reason for our homeland so aleast we can say this is ours

  85. Simmi Singh — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:41 pm  

    ” that is the reason for our homeland so aleast we can say this is ours”

    That is bordering hilarious!
    Why do you need a homeland in India? So you can sit in you 3 bedroom semi in Handsworth and think….”I wish I was in Khalistan land”…..!

    Grow up and use your brain, the vast majority of Punjab AKA “Khalistan” right now is full of Bahyay from UP and what will happen when the vast majority of Sikh kids dont go back to Punjab from UK, America and Canada to claim their dads land! The Bahyay will take the land they currently work on as their own!

    Say something realistic or constructive or don’t say anything at all!

  86. kulvinder s dosanjh — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:51 pm  

    mr bassey and hundal are two so called journalists trying to make a name for themselves,, but instead of being doing this by having excellent skills in their fields they rely on small sensational stories to reach a larger field, abit like the photographers scrambling for a picture of the dying princess diana, they will never be accepted by british journalism as credible professionals , so dont fret they can only be accepted as token asians not apt to write on anything of any importance except asian issues,

    esha i think you need to contact amnesty international, or human rights watch or even my uncle whos son was killed for being a sikh in delhi in 1984, or a lady i know who was raped in the 80s by the police of punjab,, grow up ,, read about the black cats ,, do some research

  87. nobodys heros — on 28th February, 2008 at 11:52 pm  

    Does sunny and croonys march and protest against the irish terrorist in the Northern Ireland assembly.OH they can denounce violents and follow democracy.But the Sikh federation and Babbar Khalsa cant.Sinn Fein are the tax payers pay roll and received lottery money. That is allowed as they are goras. It is only sikhs who are not allowed to demand a homeland because in the eyes of Sunny and new breed of self hating asian intellectia it is religion bigotry for sikh self determination.

  88. Simmi Singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 12:22 am  

    “Does sunny and croonys march and protest against the irish terrorist in the Northern Ireland assembly.OH they can denounce violents and follow democracy.But the Sikh federation and Babbar Khalsa cant.Sinn Fein are the tax payers pay roll and received lottery money. That is allowed as they are goras. It is only sikhs who are not allowed to demand a homeland because in the eyes of Sunny and new breed of self hating asian intellectia it is religion bigotry for sikh self determination.”

    Firstly where should I or can I correct you first?

    Ireland belongs to the Irish it was Ireland before Britian went over and occupied it!
    Khalistan has never been a country, some Sikh’s want to start a country from scratch in Punjab called Khalistan!

    A very big difference there I think, there is a massive difference between occupying another country and enforcing law and politics on it. Where as Khalistani’s are trying to claim land within a country as their own through religious means!

  89. surinder — on 29th February, 2008 at 12:37 am  

    Sunny cant take the truth ,THE PANJAB RADIO PRESNTER HE CLAIMS IS DEAD – ‘JASVIR SINGH’ IS ALIVE AND WELL AND DID A RADIO SHOW 2DY JUST SHOWS HOW MCH OF A LIER HE IS

  90. nobodys heros — on 29th February, 2008 at 1:15 am  

    Barrack obama could be President of America . So the american blacks will be in a land of equal opportunity and bliss with out discrimination

  91. nobodys heros — on 29th February, 2008 at 1:23 am  

    Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE .

  92. Kulvinder — on 29th February, 2008 at 2:56 am  

    I’m glad those leaving comments are capable of making coherent arguments.

  93. Sunny — on 29th February, 2008 at 4:09 am  

    Heh. That’s why I’m leaving them up here. Such intellectual powess leaves me simply bowled over.

  94. nobodys heros — on 29th February, 2008 at 5:25 am  

    i may not be a intelletual power house but i dont have my job on sympathy card of bbc postive discrimination

  95. kulvinder s dosanjh — on 29th February, 2008 at 8:00 am  

    well said nobodys heros,,

    mr hundal ur views on the new kosovo state

    were they not surpressed by the yugoslav state, the west and nato supported the move,, never understate the change of mind that can occur,, india is allegedly a federal state.

    you do not have to be special to have an opinion but you have to be special to express it as a journalist with a responsibility,, that does not mean you do not speak the truth due to loyalty but what you say has to be truthful.

    i think you need to re-assess your whole look on the sikh freedom movement that people believe in,,, i am by no means a fanatic i just want to see justice for 1984,, i want to see a democracy follow its foundation as per its constitution or lets the sikhs adhere to nehrus words that we can go our own way,, remember there are more jews outside israel than in it,, nobody thought this state would come into existence

    just because you have a brown face does not give you carte blanche on all sikh punjabi brown asian opinion

  96. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:24 am  

    “Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE”

    Throughout history boarders have changed, this is really nothing new, however the “Punjab” pre-1947 has never been a majority Sikh state (even during the
    times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh) and as mentioned above, the current demographics of Punjab are changing as well.

  97. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:28 am  

    “The budhi of a Gursikh is different to the budhi of a manmukh, let them continue saying what they want, our job is to remember akaal purkh 24/7, if we do this, we will no whats right and whats wrong and everything will fall into place. Theres always going to be two groups arguing on this subject, best to leave these people chatting”

    That’s very nice Jagjeet, however it really doesn’t add anything to the debate and whilst not accusing you of this, I have long heard this rhetoric from Sikh circles when faced with ‘sensitive issues’ (i.e. ‘won’t worry, do more simran (meditation), all will be fine), which is little more than sweeping the issue under the carpet.

  98. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:30 am  

    There’s a million heartbreaking stories out there in the Punjab. 20 years down the line let’s look at this realistically, I don’t think anyone can deny that people took advantage of the situation and used the whole militancy phase to take out their personal grievances. Whether it was in the guise of the militant, the police or the government, there were probably many hidden agendas which ended up overshadowing any real honorable legitimate cause.

    I think the confusion of these mixed agendas is still causing problems today, where some Sikhs are unintentionally ending up trying to follow an excessive agenda without fully understanding why. I sometimes wonder if we are taking advantages of these platforms to get our inner prejudices out. In it’s extreme, someone who supports the idea Khalistan is deemed to be brutal sadistic Sikh fanatic and someone who does not support Khalistan is a classed as a supporter for a right wing Brahmin loving government. That’s why these discussions are guaranteed to end up in a “tu tu main main” argument before we ever reach any middle ground in order to understand one another. Oh yeah and then there’s the media adding their own masala, trying to talk us into another situation!

  99. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:31 am  

    Rupinder wrote:

    “Your closing comment that the Sikh community in the UK have fallen is just your negative opinion and I disagree with blanket statement. If you are basing your opinion on these hot headed sporadic incidents that you like to home in on then they are so few that you can count them on your hand. These troublemakers are so isolated into small groups who still struggle to gain any mainstream support. It is the Punjabi/British media’s adverse publicity that makes them more notorious than they deserve to be and the reverse psychology of this is that they actually start gaining more support. R4G struggled for a couple years to gain any support and recognition and as soon as they received national press coverage they had the pick of Sikh politicians, businessmen, youth knocking on their door wanting to play a part in the new high profile campaign. It’s your media that gives them their platform not the Gurdwara stages where the president is too busy protecting his own turbans being knocked off by the opposition.”

    This is a valid statement and one which shouldn’t be ignored by counterclaims of supposedly ‘playing the uncle-tom or race-card’.

  100. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:48 am  

    “i mean he came out with so much crap, he could have mentioned the fact KPS Gill killed innocent Sikhs, Beant singh was blown up because he was KPS Gill’s bum chum and took part in the killings”

    As above, I concur with Rupinder and Parvinder’s comments on some of the aspects ignored by the report, however the above is really missing the point – KPS Gill is known to have a terrible human rights record and that is something he needs to be held accountable for, much like the corrupt portion of the 1980s Congress Government, however the same is true of the Khalistani themselves?

    The Taksal have long claimed responsibility for the brutal and horrific murder of Baljit Kaur – what pathetic justification will they offer for that? What precedent has ever been set for such retribution by the Sikh Gurus or famous Sikhs held in high esteem?

  101. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:50 am  

    Harjinder,

    I am still awaiting your clarification of your comment:

    “i mean look at these extremsit websites, anyone visiting them would think we are jsut liek muslims!”

  102. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:52 am  

    “Let’s not forget it isn’t these Babbar groups but the community at large which is feeling the brunt of these tabloid headlines and if an innocent Sikh gets killed in a race hate attack as a result of this then that will be a sad state of affairs”

    Again, despite what some are suggesting above, this is a valid statement and not one that should be ignored.

  103. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:55 am  

    Esha,

    “Where is this self-sustaining country of Khalistan going to be? Are all sikhs from all over the world going to move there? i am really curious!!! Is BC in Canada going to be converted to Khalistan???? cuz that can surely self-sustain!! Where else?”

    This question is one that will be dodged time and again by the pro-Khalistanis, since they are a fringe element amongst the wider Sikh community (most of whom are not looking for a land where barbershops are banned and the national diet is reduced to “saag and makhi di roti”) and are themselves splintered into various groups (Taksali, AKJ, the late Dr Chauhan, Akalis etc etc).

  104. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 10:16 am  

    Esha,

    “Why don’t we try to fix problems that ACTUALLY ARE problems first before jumping on the bandwagon of religious propaganda and spend millions of pounds on causes that will bring nothing but destruction to humanity? We are committing FEMALE GENOCIDE as we speak (have a look at http://unwantedgirlchild.blogspot.com)!!! Why don’t sikh leaders come forward and tackle that instead?? Why don’t women give off their gold chains to save their own sex?”

    The disturbingly low sex ratio in Punjab and particularly amongst Sikhs in India is a serious concern which seems to be ignored in favour of non-issues like eating langar on the floor or having a separate calender.

    All Sikh “Rehitnama” literature from the 17th century to the modern era repeatedly makes reference to the serious transgressions of conduct and masses of sin associated with female infanticide and any physical attacks on women, all are clear that this is an inexcusable act with immediate expulsion from the Khalsa Panth, yet we find numerous nonissues such as those mentioned above coming to the forefront of discussion!

  105. harvinder — on 29th February, 2008 at 5:14 pm  

    ‘Harvinder, you really are a pathetic, brainless, knee jerking paranoid little thug aren’t you? Foul mouthed, bigoted, morally coward, full of nothing but anger, hunting for traitors for whom you’d like nothing but intimidate and bully. No wonder your anger is out of control. Your comments should be read by everyone as an example of the mindless extremist foul-mouthed thug that Amardeep Bassey so brilliantly exposed in his documentary. So pathetic.’

    lmao truth hurt? hit a nerve?

    where did you churn all this crap from? lol coward? mate we can have this debate face to face.

    sikhs are warriors, you my friend are just a warrior of the keyboard. if u type hard enough, u never know amandeep bassey might interview next!!!

    there is nothing wrong with standing up for khalistan.

    for the record all the Shaheeds of the Sikh Panth killed people who mocked Sikhi be it rape, murder or torture of sikhs. whoever took part, paid the ultimate price. no1 flew a plane into the the parliament or and other landmark of india.

    khalistanis are not fighting hindus, they are fighting the indian government. so lets get that straight.

    esha Read some books – cythia mahmoods or joyce pettigrews is a good place to start. there are countless human rights abuses. as one of the guys said when Jaswant Singh Khalra highlighted this he was killed by KPS Gill’s regime.

    I am a relative of jaswant singh khalra. Our families are very close, so until you meet someone who has been affected by the indian govt you will never know. believe it or not the Khalra family were congress once upon a time!

    so many bullshitters on here who by writing essays get away with the shit they come out with.

    Sunny is a sound guy. He’s blady consistent and has a fair view. my views are completely opposite to his in many areas but i respect the dude.

    Problem is the ass lickers!

  106. harvinder — on 29th February, 2008 at 5:15 pm  

    ‘Harvinder, you really are a pathetic, brainless, knee jerking paranoid little thug aren’t you? Foul mouthed, bigoted, morally coward, full of nothing but anger, hunting for traitors for whom you’d like nothing but intimidate and bully. No wonder your anger is out of control. Your comments should be read by everyone as an example of the mindless extremist foul-mouthed thug that Amardeep Bassey so brilliantly exposed in his documentary. So pathetic.’

    lmao truth hurt? hit a nerve?

    where did you churn all this crap from? lol coward? mate we can have this debate face to face.

    sikhs are warriors, you my friend are just a warrior of the keyboard. if u type hard enough, u never know amandeep bassey might interview next!!!

    there is nothing wrong with standing up for khalistan.

    for the record all the Shaheeds of the Sikh Panth killed people who mocked Sikhi be it rape, murder or torture of sikhs. whoever took part, paid the ultimate price. no1 flew a plane into the the parliament or and other landmark of india.

    khalistanis are not fighting hindus, they are fighting the indian government. so lets get that straight.

    esha Read some books – cythia mahmoods or joyce pettigrews is a good place to start. there are countless human rights abuses. as one of the guys said when Jaswant Singh Khalra highlighted this he was killed by KPS Gill’s regime.

    I am a relative of jaswant singh khalra. Our families are very close, so until you meet someone who has been affected by the indian govt you will never know. believe it or not the Khalra family were congress once upon a time!

    so many bullshitters on here who by writing essays get away with the shit they come out with.

  107. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 5:59 pm  

    where did you churn all this crap from? lol coward? mate we can have this debate face to face.
    sikhs are warriors, you my friend are just a warrior of the keyboard. if u type hard enough, u never know amandeep bassey might interview next!!!

    Yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah you are strong and brave and a really good fighter.

    You’re just making the same idiotic mistake your type always makes — conflating your individual thuggish aims with the entire Sikh cause and righteousness.

    And yes, your type are always cowards, because you only fight in mobs, and when you have numbers on your side. That’s the nature of fanatical, foul mouthed extremist thugs like you.

    You’re nothing but braindead bullies, and all bullies are at the end of the day cowards.

  108. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:01 pm  

    Harvinder,

    Why does this end up in the typical “tu tu main main”?? All your abrasive comments do is reinstate the stereotype that people who support Khalistan have no coherent discussion manner. Avoid going down that route if you want your cause to be taken seriously.

  109. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:01 pm  

    This question is one that will be dodged time and again by the pro-Khalistanis, since they are a fringe element amongst the wider Sikh community (most of whom are not looking for a land where barbershops are banned and the national diet is reduced to “saag and makhi di roti”) and are themselves splintered into various groups (Taksali, AKJ, the late Dr Chauhan, Akalis etc etc).

    Exactly.

    Watch out though, for saying that you’ll get pee-in-your-pants fundmantalist lunatics like Harvinder declaring you an enemy of the panth and very bravely rounding up a lynch mob to fight you. They are brave geezers you know.

  110. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:04 pm  

    “Let’s not forget it isn’t these Babbar groups but the community at large which is feeling the brunt of these tabloid headlines and if an innocent Sikh gets killed in a race hate attack as a result of this then that will be a sad state of affairs”

    As opposed to fascist maniacs like Harvinder and his pals sending out death threats and battering innocent Sikhs? If only people would care about that. Oh, they’re probably too scared to mention it in case some lunatic threatens to kill them.

    Sure, racism is a problem, but it shouldn’t stop us getting our house in order and scrutinising the violent fascist extremist bullying cowards.

  111. Simmi Singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:14 pm  

    ” harvinder ”

    You’d do well to watch a film called “Once were warriors” it isnt about Sikh’s it’s about Mouri’s and it just mirrors what has happened to Sikh youth today. They think they’re “Warriors” because of their forfathers glories but in reality they just live off their forfathers glories and are actually loud mouth thugs, bit like the Sikh youth of today.

  112. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:29 pm  

    That’s a great movie Simmi, although I doubt Harvinder knows how to work a DVD player and would probably threaten to beat up the remote control when he failed to switch it on.

    (that was a joke Harvinder. Don’t make death threats or try to raise a lynch mob in order to beat up an old man because of it or whatever you do to ease your frustrations, I was just kidding)

    I disagree with you on one thing though Simmi. I don’t characterise the Sikh youth of today as being loud mouthed thugs.

    Most Sikh youths are getting on with life, studying, working hard, dreaming of being footballers or musicians, falling in love, owning a nice car, getting married, having fun, passing their degrees, the normal stuff that normal people of whatever background do.

    It’s just that loud mouthed bully-boy violent brainwashed fascist thugs like Harvinder and his pipsqueak pals make a loud noise, like all bullies and cowards, they squeal alot.

    Seriously, the Sikh youth are doing good, it’s just these hooligans and lynch mob bullies who whine a lot. Don’t ever forget it, or let them make you think any different.

  113. Simmi Singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 6:46 pm  

    Yeh you’re right, that was just the “Grumpy old man” coming out of me.
    Frankly I’ve never been a supporter of Khalistan, I do have members of my family who are Gursikh some of them are Pro Khalistan and some are not.
    Me personally I don’t see the point to Khalistan, I’ve been to India many times and haven’t had a problem in India as a Sikh and nether have my family wether it be in Punjab or otherwise.
    The way I see it is that Sikh’s fought (for hindu’s too) to be free in India against the Mughal rulers. For some time Sikh’s were succesful and managed to overthrow the Mughals and conquered territory from the borders of Iran to the borders of China in Northern India. Even during this time Sikh’s, Hindu’s and Muslims lived toghether in peace in a widened Punjab without it being Khalistan.

    Yes thing’s were bad after Ghandi attacked Harmandi Saab but that didn’t last. I’ve been to Punjab twice in the last two years and it’s nothing like it was during the curfew times of the early 90′s. Apart from this the current prime minister of India is Sikh. In my opinion Punjab hasn’t had it so good since the goray left!

    What would happen if we got Khalistan? we’d have to start a country from scratch with people at the helm who have zero experience in running a country and also remember it’d be a country with no sea ports!

    Why would anyone want to split away from India right now, India as a country hasn’t been so economically strong since the goray left and it’s all thanks to Manmohan Singh! Who isn’t only the Prime Minister now but also master minded the economic revolution in India right now!

    Some people want Khalistan and they’re entitled to their opinion but you know what they say about opinion “they’re like A-holes, everyone has one but no one wants to see it!”

  114. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:08 pm  

    Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE

    You see, this is where we go wrong. These fundamentalists are so brainwashed by their peers and elders who pump them with so much twisted history and half truths and moronic propaganda, that we don’t take the time and trouble to explain how and why their examples are so wrong. We just take it for granted that people are intelligent enough to understand themselves.

    Take the above quotation from one of the fundamentalists on this thread.

    (sadly, they’re not much fun, but they are definitely mentalists)

    The ‘independent sovereign state of Punjab’ that they refer back to in their arguments was actually a kingdom ruled by a warrior maharajah who happened to be Sikh and brought it under his control after the break up of Mughal dominion.

    That state stretched beyond the boundaries of Punjab. But even within the boundaries of Punjab, Sikhs were a minority within it. There was nothing ‘Sikh’ about the state, beyond the patronage of the rulers who happened to be Sikh, there was nothing ‘Khalistani’ about it. How could it be? THE MAJORITY OF THAT SOVEREIGN STATE WERE NOT EVEN SIKH! The majority of the subjects of Punjab were Hindus and Muslims.

    How can that in any way be a precursor to a theocratic Sikh Zionist entity?

    In their wisdom Ranjit Singh and the other rajahs did not try to impose a Sikh character on the lives of those who lived under them who were not Sikh.

    It seems they are more intoxicated with dreams of empire, imperialism and power than anything else. The idea that in the 21st Century the model for a modern existence is a 200 year old feudal kingdom and empire is laughable and moronic. Especially when such a concept is based on the rule of Sikhs over a land that was only minority Sikh.

    Punjab today is small in comparison to how it used to be before partition and Hayana was formed. Now, the majority of the state is Sikh. But as anything other than a protest after Bluestar and November 1984 there was never a deep rooted feeling for Khalistan as the kind of land ruled by theocratic maniacs that the ‘kill everybody’ fundamentalists who squeal loudly here dream about. Why would the millions of moderate, modern Sikhs, want anything to do with that? Why would the millions of Hindus and hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Punjab want that? Why would the millions of Dalit Sikhs want to have anything to do with a theocratic pipe-dream dominated by aggressive, fundamentalist Jat Sikhs?

    No wonder they squeal so loud and have nothing to offer except death threats and violence to normal Sikhs who just want to live normal lives here in the UK and elsewhere. Maybe they should petition the governments of Canada and the UK for a separate state for them here and see what the reaction is. They can chum up with their ideological soulmates the crazy Islamists and go and live on a radioactive wasteland near a nuclear power station somewhere and be left alone to spit and curse and shake their fists at the world together and we could all be rid of them.

    And no, I don’t include Human Rights campaigners in this, only those maniacs who think it is their right to threaten, bully and use violence against those Sikhs who disagree with them and think that sectarian violent conflict should be flushed out of our community in Britain.

  115. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:35 pm  

    “You see, this is where we go wrong. These fundamentalists are so brainwashed by their peers and elders who pump them with so much twisted history and half truths and moronic propaganda, that we don’t take the time and trouble to explain how and why their examples are so wrong. We just take it for granted that people are intelligent enough to understand themselves.”

    This is the underlying issue, so many Sikhs, pro-Khalistani or not, have this image in their heads that only their ancestors were the ones fighting oppression during the 17th, 18th and 19th century and all others were lame and feeble.

    I will say, undoubtedly, the Sikh community has always outdone itself in terms of their contribution (economic, political, socio, humanitarian) in comparision to their numbers, however the sheer lack of knowledge of their own traditions and history is largely reflective not only of what you say, but also of the UK education system, where “critical thinking” is never really developed, hence why personality cults are always flavour of the day rather than the ability to assess things on their own merit. (Of course, this applies to non-Sikhs and Sikhs alike).

  116. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:39 pm  

    Sukhi wrote:

    “Watch out though, for saying that you’ll get pee-in-your-pants fundmantalist lunatics like Harvinder declaring you an enemy of the panth and very bravely rounding up a lynch mob to fight you. They are brave geezers you know”

    Don’t worry Sukhi, over the past 4 years I’ve been accused of everything from a RSS agent, employee of some Indian Governmental agency, a Christian Missionary, so this is nothing new.

    The problem with people like Harvinder, further to my comment above, is that logic and reason escape them, despite their access to an education system that too most likely to university level – so when they can’t discuss, it boils down to either (a) shout the loudest or (b) ad homimen attacks.

  117. deep singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:44 pm  

    “khalistanis are not fighting hindus, they are fighting the indian government. so lets get that straight”

    I think the comments on forums such as http://www.sikhsangat.com and http://www.tapoban.org are sufficient to highlight what the Khalistanis views are on Hindus.

    I would still like to have the Khalistanis rationale for the murder of Baljit Kaur – on what grounds did the Taksalis (under the command of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale) torture and mutilate her body* and what precedent has ever been set in scripture or deed by the Sikh Gurus or any respected Sikh historical figure to justify such sadistic and immoral behaviour?

    *For those who don’t know, Baljit Kaur’s body was chopped into several bits and mutilated to the extent that her breasts were chopped off, her crime was that she opposed Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale and double cross his right hand man Sodhi together with her boyfriend.

  118. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:45 pm  

    Deep Singh

    It’s not a general thing though. Regardless of most normal people’s views on things, we don’t get intolerant or seek to impose our views on others.

    These fundamentalists are brainwashed by other people. It doesn’t happen in a vaccuum. It happens as a result of indoctrination and ideology.

    It’s an ideological instruction that teaches them these things. All these maniacs and violent lynch mob cowards are brainwashed into thinking these things directly by certain individuals, groupings and movements. It’s elders who fill the minds of young kids, and young kids who carry on the process to each other. It’s just fascism plain and simple. That’s why they’re so foul mouthed, violent and cowardly. That’s why they try to bully and intimidate. Mentally, they have been injected with a paralysing ideology that accepts tribal hatred as the base value and they proceed from there.

    That’s why it’s important to:

    (a) Get these maniacs sent to jail as and when they decide to implement their pathetic primitive violence against innocent people who have done nothing wrong except disagree with them

    (b) Counter the myths and propaganda of their Ayatollah Khomeini version of Sikh nationalism.

    Simple really.

  119. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:47 pm  

    Don’t worry Sukhi, over the past 4 years I’ve been accused of everything from a RSS agent, employee of some Indian Governmental agency, a Christian Missionary, so this is nothing new.

    You could round up all the paranoid schizophrenics in Britain and they wouldn’t be able to match these lot for their paranoid rantings and hallucinations.

  120. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:56 pm  

    I would still like to have the Khalistanis rationale for the murder of Baljit Kaur

    I don’t care about what happened 25 years ago, personally.

    However, the same dynamics drive people here —identify someone as a traitor, an enemy of the panth, then intimidate, bully, use lynch mob cowardice violence if nessecary, spread religious hatred, batter, beat up, threaten. That’s their modus operandi. You can already see it here with these primitive violent thugs declaring Amardeep Bassey and Sunny Hundal as ‘sell outs’ and ‘anti Sikhs’, and you know what they let themselves open to don’t you?

    It could be a journalist, a radio presenter, a writer, or just a normal man or woman or even an old man or old woman who disagrees with them. As long as they can be declared ‘an enemy of the panth’ they are a fair target.

    We need Sikh police officers to start addressing this more seriously. Not one single lunatic who takes part in this kind of rhetoric or action should be spared. Long prison sentences for all of them who threaten or actually carry out violence.

    Let’s see how brave they are when they’re locked up in prison and don’t have access to a mobile phone to call up a lynch mob of 20 people to beat up an old man or an innocent male or female journalist or writer or whatever. Let’s see how brave they are when they have to shower naked with Barry, Clive and Mohammad, and get told to pick up the soap.

    (Ok the last bit was frivolous but you have to agree it’s funny)

  121. Simmi Singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 7:58 pm  

    Sukhi

    At the end of the day what these dim wits fail to realise is, is that they live in the UK, Canada or America. All of these countries are run as secular societies, these Pro Khalistani’s enjoy living in a secular society and the freedoms it brings but then want to create a religous nation in India called Khalistan. What a joke!

    These folks are no better than Islamic fundamentalist extremists.

  122. Sukhi — on 29th February, 2008 at 8:12 pm  

    At the end of the day what these dim wits fail to realise is, is that they live in the UK, Canada or America. All of these countries are run as secular societies, these Pro Khalistani’s enjoy living in a secular society and the freedoms it brings but then want to create a religous nation in India called Khalistan. What a joke! These folks are no better than Islamic fundamentalist extremists.

    EXACTLY!

    Bunch of clowns aren’t they?

    The most hilarious thing about alot of these fanatics is that they hate Muslims and spend half their time screaming about them and yet they are the mirror image of the jihadi punks.

    It’s all about campaigning for this to be addressed now.

    (1) MPs and government ministers have to be kept informed of their activities. Raise it at every level of government with them.

    (2) The police have to start cracking down hard on these bullying thugs. Sikh officers should head units to tackle this in the same way that Tamil gang violence in London was targetted and virtually crushed by a special unit. Long prison sentences regardless of age or background. If there’s illegal immigrants being used to carry out some of this, deport the scumbags and chase after those who brought them into the country, add another few years to their prison sentences.

    (3) The Charity Commission needs to get serious about dealing with these internecine feuds and start getting strict and have a no-mercy policy. This would be a start in getting them to understand that their feuds will have consequences and will not be tolerated.

    Just three things that can be done to deal with this menace, and that everyone can contribute to, through contacting the CC, the police, and MPs.

  123. Parvinder Singh — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:11 pm  

    #107: Harvinder, Jaswant Singh Khalra, the Sikhs’ Steve Biko, was a superb and courageous fighter for human rights, nevertheless was no Khalistani. In fact, he was deeply disturbed by the mindless violence by some of the armed Sikh groups, especially against innocent member of the Hindu community. Once he even went on a hunger strike to protest against the killing of Hindus by unidentified armed militants.
    See: http://www.ensaaf.org/pdf/reduced/chapter1-vol1.pdf

    #108: Deep. Agree. The murder of Baljit Kaur, whatever her crime, was disgusting. Mrs Rajinder Kaur, daughter of late Akali leader, Master Tara Singh was also murdered, allegedly by militants. As were the countless murders that took place of Sikhs and non-Sikhs whose only crime was to speak out against Khalistan.

    It is high time, and I say this as an unflinching fighter for human rights as regards to 1984 and after, that all of us should recognise that acts like these did take place in the land of our Gurus. Bombs were thrown in crowded markets, Hindu and Sikhs taken off buses and separated and the Hindus shot. It should all be condemned in the strongest of terms, irrespective of who were behind these acts and whether you think Khalistan is right or not.

  124. Sunda — on 29th February, 2008 at 9:27 pm  

    Harvinder does not represent a Gursikh view regardless of what he thinks. If he thinks that he will be thought of as a panthic martyr because he can verbally shout over the next person then he’s more pathetic than the journalist Bassey.

    This is precisely why the whole Khalistan agenda is beginning to push people more and more away. The whole thing now has a short shelf life and attitudes like Harvinders only moves people away faster.

  125. curious? — on 1st March, 2008 at 6:59 am  

    i wonder how many people debating here actually follow sikhi. ie taking amrit and actually trying to keep the rehni, behni kehni and sehni of a Gursikh? since this topic revolves around religious ideology and controversy it would be interesting to know

    Rab Rakha

  126. Sunny — on 1st March, 2008 at 7:35 pm  

    Someone above said: “i just want to see justice for 1984″

    Yes, so do I. but that doesn’t mean I support a Khalistan, it doesn’t mean I support internet warriors like above who scream and shout at anyone who doesn’t follow th agenda of “Sikh community leaders” and their corrupt ways.

    Almost every article I’ve written on Sikh issues mentions the human rights abuses by the Indian govt re: 1984. If you’re going to try and get me to listen, at least make valid criticism. All these cheap jibes about bad journalism and being a “sellout” are just funny, and thrown by sad individuals who haven’t achieved anything useful themselves.

  127. Sukhi — on 1st March, 2008 at 8:19 pm  

    Harvinder does not represent a Gursikh view regardless of what he thinks. If he thinks that he will be thought of as a panthic martyr because he can verbally shout over the next person then he’s more pathetic than the journalist Bassey.

    Bassey is not pathetic. Deal with the issues in the documentary and don’t slander the individual.

  128. Sukhi — on 1st March, 2008 at 8:24 pm  

    Harvinder, Jaswant Singh Khalra, the Sikhs’ Steve Biko, was a superb and courageous fighter for human rights, nevertheless was no Khalistani. In fact, he was deeply disturbed by the mindless violence by some of the armed Sikh groups, especially against innocent member of the Hindu community. Once he even went on a hunger strike to protest against the killing of Hindus by unidentified armed militants.

    Well said.

    The sooner we realise that there are issues in the documentary that we have to address, and that there are vested interests and scoundrels hijacking causes and creating deep rifts in our fabric, this cancer will simply grow inside us.

  129. Sukhi — on 2nd March, 2008 at 12:43 am  

    ‘ i dont care whats happened in the last 25 years, personally’

    I didn’t say that. Try reading properly and not responding with gutter language and insult and invention like a primitive violent thug.

  130. sarnjeet kaur — on 2nd March, 2008 at 6:18 pm  

    i love the way it talks about the trafalgur square freedom rally and how babbar khalsa were there with their banners out and were saying they will kill ‘a holy man’. i was there, and i can say, yes babbar khalsa were there. but before you all start saying omg its true what they documentry said, the reason why we were talking about the stupid jhoota sauda was because when a member of the sikh community decided they can dress like guru gobind singh and give out amrit on his own acccord, we will not sit around and pretend it is not happening. seriously man, before making such absurd programmes about sikh extremists, do some research into what you are getting into.
    everything was taken out of proportion, the documentry did not mention WHY 1984 operation bluestar took place, it just simply stated two sikh bodyguards shot indra gandhi. see how they dont give you the full story? they just threw that in there to make people think, my god these sikhs are terrible terrorists! there is already islamaphobia around the world, where a women wearing a hijab is accused by people in their mind of having a bomb strapped to her, anyone with a beard and people start panicking, ‘omg terrorist!!’
    wake up people, before throwing blind accusations, read up on what the whole picture is.
    himmet singh sohi has a panic button installed at havelock gurudwara? ahhahaa, well maybe he should learn to act like a REAL sikh and then maybe he wont be recieving death threats! its a shame that when gurudwara election time comes, the actions of some sikhs who resort to violence and abuse, are used to portray the whole sikh community.
    sikh terrorists? ptsh, the most baseless point i have heard so far.
    it has to be said, KHALISTAN ZINDABAD!

  131. sarnjeet kaur — on 2nd March, 2008 at 6:34 pm  

    sukhi ‘I don’t care about what happened 25 years ago, personally.
    We need Sikh police officers to start addressing this more seriously. Not one single lunatic who takes part in this kind of rhetoric or action should be spared. Long prison sentences for all of them who threaten or actually carry out violence.

    Let’s see how brave they are when they’re locked up in prison and don’t have access to a mobile phone to call up a lynch mob of 20 people to beat up an old man or an innocent male or female journalist or writer or whatever. Let’s see how brave they are when they have to shower naked with Barry, Clive and Mohammad, and get told to pick up the soap.

    (Ok the last bit was frivolous but you have to agree it’s funny)

    no, it is not funny. u dont care about what happened in 1984? okay, why are you commenting then? tut tut tut, sukhi im going to have to hunt you down and find out where you live and call you anti sikh and beat you up.
    get real. the actions of a few are so easily used to judge all sikhs.

  132. harry101 — on 2nd March, 2008 at 11:09 pm  

    can i just say if u are a sikh and believe in the 10 GURUS and our 11th livin GURU then call it what you want but khalsa raaj will happen like or not guru jee said it and it will happen read ur bani instead of arguin on this site

  133. harry101 — on 2nd March, 2008 at 11:18 pm  

    lets c if u can understand this u can do medicine and get the degree but dont do the final exam u cannot wear the white coat same as a sikh when u r born into a sikh family ur mission is to take amrit live by the sword.if u do not you have failed ur mission on earth.so my point is do not cuss the sikhs who have taken amrit and doing wrong U TAKE AMRIT AND SHOW THEM THE RIGHT PATH AND PLEASE DO SAY U NEED TO CLEAN INSIDE FIRST.

  134. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 12:30 pm  

    Curious asked:

    “i wonder how many people debating here actually follow sikhi. ie taking amrit and actually trying to keep the rehni, behni kehni and sehni of a Gursikh? since this topic revolves around religious ideology and controversy it would be interesting to know”

    I really see no relevance of the above statement – the issue under discussion is that of extremism existing within the Sikh community and the impact it is having and could have on the the UK Sikh Youth and on the wider aspects of UK society, respectively.

    It does not revolve around “religious ideology” as much as it does around “political ideology”.

    Who is “Gursikh” is a largely subjective matter and one which concerns the field of philisophy and theology and not this discussion here, but to satisfy your curiousity, I have made several comments about my background elsewhere on this forum and yes, I am an Amritdhari Sikh (i.e. have taken ‘Amrit’).

  135. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 12:49 pm  

    harry101, please could you send your comments again in coherent English, unfortunately I (perhaps owing to my lack of adequate knowlegde concerning “txt msg” language), am having trouble understanding what you are trying to say.

    Thanks,

    Deep Singh.

  136. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 12:57 pm  

    sarnjeet kaur:

    “get real. the actions of a few are so easily used to judge all sikhs”

    This is precisely why Sikh community as a whole need to be vocal about this type of behaviour if it is found to exist – I believe Parvinder’s posts have been making this point clear for all.

  137. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 1:00 pm  

    Sarnjeet wrote:

    “sikh terrorists? ptsh, the most baseless point i have heard so far”

    With due note of my comments above and again, refering back to several points aired already by Parvinder concerning the need to address ALL human rights abuses relating 1984 Punjab and Delhi, I feel you are kidding yourself if you honestly believe that there have been no Sikh Terrorists as you appear to suggest above.

  138. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 1:02 pm  

    Sukhi wrote:

    ‘ i dont care whats happened in the last 25 years, personally’

    In response to my earlier post @ #118 – please could you clarify what you meant since you later appear to retract this this comment by saying:

    “I didn’t say that. Try reading properly and not responding with gutter language and insult and invention like a primitive violent thug”

    I am presuming that this wasn’t intended for me, but in anyevent, please could you elucidate.

    Thanks,

    Deep Singh.

  139. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 1:09 pm  

    Sukhi wrote the following in response to Sunda:

    “Bassey is not pathetic. Deal with the issues in the documentary and don’t slander the individual”

    Sukhi, this is my point (b) as per #117 (re: ad hominem), nonetheless, let’s not pretend that there are issues with the nature of the report as appropriately highlighted by Mr Doshanj and others above.

  140. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 1:33 pm  

    Sukhi,

    “Regardless of most normal people’s views on things, we don’t get intolerant or seek to impose our views on others.”

    Whilst ‘normal’ is a highly subjective term (i.e. it was deem quite “normal” during the middle ages to burn ‘witches’ and quite “normal” during the early parts of last century to have slave labour in certain countries, or at least apartheid and so on and so forth), your point ties in nicely with the point highlighted above by Simmi Singh.

    “These fundamentalists are brainwashed by other people. It doesn’t happen in a vaccuum. It happens as a result of indoctrination and ideology”

    Precisely and this is the result of little more than power struggles (usually boiling down to financial gain as the lowest common denominator) nicely dressed up in pseudo-religious arguments.

    “Mentally, they have been injected with a paralysing ideology that accepts tribal hatred as the base value and they proceed from there”

    Tribalism is a large part of this and the UK in recent years has lent itself nicely to being a breeding ground for such a mindset.

    “Counter the myths and propaganda of their Ayatollah Khomeini version of Sikh nationalism”

    Agree – this is the key part that needs most urgent addressing, there is a noticeable trend amongst Sikh youth circles in the UK, where for want of a better term ‘born again’ Sikhs, typically from families who have not necessarily been too practising for several generations, have upon assuming their new found identity, proceeded to acquire positions of influence (be it amongst Gurdwaras or Student Circles) and now see fit to lecture, what one may term “khandani” Sikh families (i.e. those born into families who have been living and practising a Sikh lifestyle for several generations).

    Invariably, these ‘Khandani’ families tend not to be Khalistani and hence viewed to be lax by the standards of the born again generation, who like all fundamentalists have introduced ‘traditions’ that never existed historically as a barometer of their measure of a “Gursikh”.

    One can witness this in most Sikh Student circles at Universities, where the panel of organisers from organisations such as BOSS will invariably a selection of “Born Again” Sikhs and their presentations will centre solely on the remit of “look at me, I used be a ‘player’ who drunk loads, slept around, smoked, did drugs etc etc and then discovered religion after reading about 1984 and now check out my long flowing beard and big orange turban”, what follows from their on is quite obvious…

    …like with all things, these people get a platform for the same reason as the very media journalists they are denouncing, ‘they sell a good story and look the part’…

  141. deep singh — on 3rd March, 2008 at 1:38 pm  

    Re: “what follows from their on” above, should obviously be “there on” – apologies for oversight.

  142. Esha Dhillon — on 4th March, 2008 at 12:10 am  

    wow, you guys are still at it. :) sat sri akal to one and all.

    agree with deep singh, sunny and sukhi.

    kulvinder (#87), thanks for your input but i surely can’t be expected to have a meaningful discussion with someone who has to resort to tell me to ‘grow up’, can i? :/

    was it deep singh who mentioned something about British education system lacking avenues to encourage ‘creative thinking’? yep, it clearly shows in comments here like kulvinder’s.

    also, lol @ Get you facts right India was a country created by the British. IT never existed before the British. The PUNJAB WAS A SEPERATE SOVEREIGN STATE.

    thanks, Sunny, for leaving such impeccable gems up on the board. :)

    cheers!

  143. Esha Dhillon — on 4th March, 2008 at 12:17 am  

    No wonder they squeal so loud and have nothing to offer except death threats and violence to normal Sikhs who just want to live normal lives here in the UK and elsewhere. Maybe they should petition the governments of Canada and the UK for a separate state for them here and see what the reaction is. They can chum up with their ideological soulmates the crazy Islamists and go and live on a radioactive wasteland near a nuclear power station somewhere and be left alone to spit and curse and shake their fists at the world together and we could all be rid of them. (#115)

    thanks for a great laugh! :D

  144. KSingh — on 4th March, 2008 at 7:41 am  

    Before the Britsih arrived 545 Independent states existed on the Indian sub continent. The map below shows in 1805 the extent of the Sikh state. Yes Ranjit Singh involved all religions in the state but it was a run on Sikh principals.

    http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/india/indiamap1804.htm

  145. deep singh — on 4th March, 2008 at 10:53 am  

    “Before the Britsih arrived 545 Independent states existed on the Indian sub continent. The map below shows in 1805 the extent of the Sikh state”

    K Singh,

    As I mentioned above, borders will always change throughout history, so the fact that “India” as we understand it today wasn’t there is really trivial in the grand scheme of things.

    The concept of “Akhand Bharat” has been in place for several centuries – this is exactly the debate I had with that foolish RSS loving “Indy” under another thread on this forum who was spewing his own fantasy of pseudo-Hindu domination.

    “Akhand Bharat” is a concept which is perfectly in tune with Sikh ethos, particularly since in our daily Ardas we seek Divine guidance and blessings for serving and having free ‘darshan’ of all Gurdwaras and Dharamsalas that the Panth has lost owing to the Partition and other factors.

    Khalistanis, on one hand recite this Ardas and on the other hand are all too keen to further the problem by carving out a small piece of land (of what remains as Punjab in India) and thereby have restrict access to several Gurdwaras and historic locations associated with the Gurus and Sikh History that lie significantly outside of Punjab.

    Then again, Khalistanis aren’t too concerned about preservation of history, particularly when it doesn’t support their case, in any event, like the Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Southall illustrates, Khalistanis would rather spend millions on building new Gurdwaras to mimic English Churches than actually consult anything of heritage.

    “Yes Ranjit Singh involved all religions in the state but it was a run on Sikh principals”

    Agreed that the Maharaja was a great secular ruler and despite his philistinic upbringing was a great patron of the arts, however do you really consider his state and affairs run on Sikh principals? Do you honestly believe that the Khalistanis today would have even allowed someone like the Maharaja (a heavy drinker, a man with a sizeable sexual appetite amongst several other factors) to lead anything?

  146. Parvinder Singh — on 4th March, 2008 at 12:00 pm  

    2 questions for those promoting Khalistan on this blog. One, would you be happy to loose most of the Takhts? Two, are you aware and happy with the Pakistan connection which I have outlined below?

    As Deep Singh as already stated in #146, Khalistanis are ‘all too keen to further the problem by carving out a small piece of land…’.

    Guru Gobind Singhji, the last Sikh Guru, established Takhts or thrones as far as Nanded in the South of India, Patna in the East, Anandpur in the North and Amritsar and Talvandi Soba in the West. Why should we now leave these in the same manner we were forced to leave Nankana Sahib, the birthplace of Guru Nanak ?

    The following quotes are from an article reproduced in the Sikh Times by Balbir Punj

    ‘…the wave of terror in Punjab was masterminded by I.S.I. during the reign of Zia-ul Haq. It was in line with his Operation Topac launched to divide India into bits and pieces, which would in turn be devoured by Pakistan to create a larger Islamic state. It was Ms. Benazir Bhutto who disclosed the details of Operation Topac to Rajiv Gandhi, thereby helping to close the chapter of I.S.I.-sponsored insurgency in Punjab. However, this does not belittle the role of paramilitary forces and Punjab Police who played an important role in eliminating insurgency in Punjab with a heavy hand. However, its vestiges like Babbar Khalsa International continued to have their headquarters in Pakistan with Wadhwa Singh and Mehal Singh as the organisation’s chief and deputy chief respectively.’ http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_061605a.html

    The Sikh community in India have for centuries suffered from both extremes of Hindu nationalism and Islamists. The creation of a Khalistan can only be facilitated via a foreign power, ie. Pakistan. Do you really think Pakistan, by siding with the Sikhs would then turn around and let them rule their land?

    During the period 1984-1995, who could blame a sizeable section of Sikhs supporting Khalistan considering the over-reaction of the Indian state to what really amounted to centre-state struggle over river waters, power and a state capital. For most people, Khalistan meant a place where there would be religious freedom and an escape from police brutality. ie. it was a reaction, an emotional and valid reaction to what was thrown at them. However, it offers no solution. It would have caused more hardship to the communities of the Punjab of all failths. A mass migration unseen since Partition would have occurred and millions would have been killed.

    Its so easy to raise empty slogans in our comfortable life in the west. But it does not help the people of Punjab one iota. What we can do though is to double our efforts in getting justice for the families affected in 1984 and after, educate people of medieval practices of dowry which has lead to the present genocide of female babies and push the Indian government into providing more in terms of education and health for the majority so that they can also benefit from the present boom in the country.

  147. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 4th March, 2008 at 12:30 pm  

    Very informative article Parvinder Singh (#147), many thanks.

  148. deep singh — on 4th March, 2008 at 3:13 pm  

    Harry101:

    “so my point is do not cuss the sikhs who have taken amrit and doing wrong”

    I cannot see any post here where an Amritdhari has been “cussed”, in any event, why should an Amritdhari be exempt from any wrongdoings? Are Amritdharis above the law?

  149. deep singh — on 4th March, 2008 at 3:39 pm  

    Harry101:

    “can i just say if u are a sikh and believe in the 10 GURUS and our 11th livin GURU then call it what you want but khalsa raaj will happen like or not guru jee said it and it will happen read ur bani instead of arguin on this site”

    Harry,

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. Why does following the 10 Gurus and having faith in the Sikh scriptures as the eternal Guru require one to be a Khalistani?

    2. Why does Khalsa Raaj have to amount to Khalistan?

    3. Where exactly did Guru Sahib state that (i) Khalsa Raaj would occur* (ii) how does this conclude in Guru Sahib supporting Khalistan?

    4. Why does recitation of a sacred text (here, Gurbani) make a difference to the discussion here, presumably you recite them quite regularly (If I am presume so from your holier than thou commentary thus far), however it seems to have done very little for your communication skills or ability to even string together a coherent English sentence.

    *Please do not quote the Dohra (couplet) at the end of the Ardas (re: Raaj karega Khalsa…) as support for Guru Sahib endorsing such a view. This couplet was not written by any of the Gurus and in its modern variation stems from the writings of Giani Gian Singh Nirmala.

  150. s johal — on 4th March, 2008 at 8:36 pm  

    I have just come across this website and have been reading the above comments, which if I may say are very interesting. In particular those regarding the khalistan: a separate homeland for Sikhs. The radio4 programme, I have not yet listened to but will do soon.

    The question I want from these khalistanies is: what constitutes a nation? And what is the definition of religion? Only then we can take this debate forward

    If you really want to understand politics, and to do something for the whole of humanity then visit: http://www.shahidbhagatsingh.org

  151. s johal — on 4th March, 2008 at 8:38 pm  

    I have just come across this website and have been reading the above comments, which if I may say are very interesting. In particular those regarding the khalistan: a separate homeland for Sikhs. The radio4 programme, I have not yet listened to but will do soon.

    The question I want answered from these khalistanies is: what constitutes a nation? And what is the definition of religion? Only then we can take this debate forward

    If you really want to understand politics, and to do something for the whole of humanity then visit: http://www.shahidbhagatsingh.org

  152. deep singh — on 5th March, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

    s johal,

    Bhagat Singh was a pro-Marxist and borderline anarchist who went on to shoot the wrong person (Saunders rather than Smith).

    So insofar as your comment “If you really want to understand politics, and to do something for the whole of humanity” is concerned, I really doubt understanding Marxism necessary for the debate concerning a Theocratic State and much less for the concern of “humanity” given the above.

    Your earlier question to the Khalistanis concerning “what constitutes a nation? And what is the definition of religion?” are worth asking, what the Khalistanis have to say about this would make interesting reading, but it seems as if the cat has caught their tongue.

  153. harry101 — on 5th March, 2008 at 1:43 pm  

    ok sir let me answer your?
    1 freedom of havin to practise our way of life ie sikh weddings cannot be classed as law,this is in india allow the sgpc to be free from rule of goverment,make amritsar and anandpur,no booze or meat zone if look they are very simple request

    2 khalsa raaj is khalistan my friend they are just words read the DASAM GRANTH BANI

    3 my brother i am not educated in this country so i am sorry if i do not make sense or my spelling is not good but when you say khalistani what do you think that is.your knowlege of sikhi may be good pls do not forget about the tens of thousands of sikh that hav been killed in the name of khalistan if you cant say good then dont say bad.and i did not mention the dora your lack of knowlege in sikhi lets you forget about DASAM GRANTH JEE

  154. harry101 — on 5th March, 2008 at 1:45 pm  

    if you are going to be rude again please my brother do not reply to me

  155. Parvinder Singh — on 5th March, 2008 at 2:21 pm  

    Interesting website S. Johal. Bhagat Singh and his comrades were indeed a courageous lot and were quite an embarrassment to the Congress Party and leaders like Gandhi. Nevertheless, their political philosophy of promoting a communist vision of India, was found wanting post-collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Their political heirs, in the guise of the two Communist Parties of India, CPI and CPI (M), have also been suspect. One supported Russia, come what may, and the other China and gave full support for Indira Gandhi’s Emergency in 1977. During the 80′s, when the Akali agitation was in full swing, they initially supported it, and then flipped, ending up supporting Operation Bluestar. Since then, they have been closely aligned with the Congress (I) party, propping up their minority governments from time to time.

    I do believe that Bhagat Singh and his comrades would have turned in their graves at this practice of communism in India and I would imagine would have aligned themselves to more progressive sections of Indian society. The film, Rang de Basanti skilfully links pre and post independence and the role progressives should play.

    Harry101: Raj Karega Khalsa, if I’m correct, means ‘the pure shall rule’. So it doesn’t necessary say only a Sikh Khalsa should rule. Therefore, Khalsa Raj would denote ‘the rule of the pure’.

  156. Rupinder S Dosanj — on 5th March, 2008 at 4:03 pm  

    My interpretation of Khalsa Raj is a spiritual Raj beyond man-made boundaries and borders. Without getting too deep Khalsa Raj goes beyond this world, it is intangible but our simple Human Intellect can only see Khalsa Raj as a physical worldly nation.

  157. deep singh — on 5th March, 2008 at 4:38 pm  

    Harry101:

    1. “freedom of havin to practise our way of life ie sikh weddings cannot be classed as law,this is in india allow the sgpc to be free from rule of goverment,make amritsar and anandpur,no booze or meat zone if look they are very simple request”

    I cannot see where in the above you have addressed my question “why does following the 10 Gurus and having faith in the Sikh scriptures as the eternal Guru require one to be a Khalistani?”

    Whilst we await your considered response, in response to the issues you now highlight:

    (a)”freedom of havin to practise our way of life”

    To my knowledge (and experience), Sikhs can freely move about the country adorning all facets of their faith upto and including various sized Kirpans (and in the case of Nihangs, even firearms), over and above this I cannot understand how Sikhs are limited to ‘practice their way of life’ in India?

    (b)”ie sikh weddings cannot be classed as law,this is in india”

    I would like to discuss this item with you further, before doing so, please could you expand upon your comment, what exactly do you think in the law prohibits Sikhs from being marriaged under the Akhand Karaj ceremony in India. I look forward to discussing this with you.

    (c)”allow the sgpc to be free from rule of goverment”

    Again, what exactly do you require the SGPC to do that it currently cannot undertake?

    (d)”make amritsar and anandpur,no booze or meat zone”

    Why? What demands that the cities of Amritsar and Anandpur be made alcohol or meat free? Particularly in the case of the latter, meat (with the exception of Khuttha) is not prohibited for Sikhs (regardless of what the fringe Sant Baba or Jathabandi personality cults may like to promote), this much is clear from the Sikh Rehit Maryada as supported by the Akal Thakt.

    2 “khalsa raaj is khalistan my friend they are just words read the DASAM GRANTH BANI”

    I am familiar with the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, however please could you provide me with one reference to indicate where in the Dasam Granth the notion of “Khalistan” is supported. Again, I look forward to having this discussion with you.

    3 “pls do not forget about the tens of thousands of sikh that hav been killed in the name of khalistan”

    Harry, there are ‘tens of thousands’ young men and children being hired and trianed by the likes of Hamas and other organisation, these children are taught to memorise the Koran and are very “practising” in their faith, yet they go on to become suicide bombers – the pro-Khalistanis similarly think because scores of young ‘rehitvaan’ men and women, who no doubt, were very practising Sikhs and believed they were fighting for a just cause, that in of itself somehow makes the Khalistani cause justified and appropriate.

    4. “i did not mention the dora your lack of knowlege in sikhi lets you forget about DASAM GRANTH JEE”

    Harry, I am aware you did not mention that Dohra, I did since this is often quoted by Khalistanis as ‘Guru Sahib’s words’, the whole point being that I was hoping you could provide something more tangible to support your claim that Khalistan is a divine mandate from our Gurus – as above, please show me where in the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib (and if you can in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib) the notion of Khalistan is supported.

    I am looking forward to your responses.

    Deep Singh.

  158. deep singh — on 5th March, 2008 at 4:46 pm  

    Parvinder Singh @ 158:

    “Raj Karega Khalsa, if I’m correct, means ‘the pure shall rule’. So it doesn’t necessary say only a Sikh Khalsa should rule. Therefore, Khalsa Raj would denote ‘the rule of the pure”

    Parvinder, with due respect, I do not think we should be liberalising the tradition to conform to modern day mindsets.

    The term “Khalsa” in the Dohra (couplet) “Raj Karega Khalsa” clearly refers to the Khalsa Panth of Guru Gobind Singh, this much is clear when the full composition is read (incidentally the version recited in most Gurdwaras today is a shortened form of the original).

    In any event, this composition, whilst perfectly valid in its own rights, is not the writings of the Sikh Gurus and hence any support for the notion of Khalistan built upon this Dohra is flawed insofar as suggesting that it is some sort of Divine mandate.

  159. Parvinder Singh — on 5th March, 2008 at 6:48 pm  

    #159: point taken Deep.

    also glad someone here is familiar with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib in order to answer Harry’s arguments.

  160. J.Singh — on 6th March, 2008 at 12:57 am  

    Al Qaida and Sikh seperatists links? HA! When pigs fly! I do agree however a sperate Sikh homeland is not needed as we have to worry about the communities internal issues first.

  161. KSingh — on 6th March, 2008 at 7:16 am  

    Interesting to see the rise of nationalism and regionalism in other states in India, this is a growing trend.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/specialcoverage/2754186.cms

  162. deep singh — on 6th March, 2008 at 10:24 am  

    “Al Qaida and Sikh seperatists links? HA! When pigs fly! I do agree however a sperate Sikh homeland is not needed as we have to worry about the communities internal issues first”

    J Singh,

    As mentioned above by Parvinder, Rupinder and myself, as unplatable it maybe to stomach that members of our community could even fall to the depths of associating themselves with the likes of Al Qaida terrorists, and with due note of the issues that are inherent within Amardeep Bassey’s report (as highlighted adequately above by Mr Doshanj and others), should these assertions come to fruition and result in any truth, we need to be extremely vocal about the issue within the Community to ensure that we take on our own corporate responsibility.

    Insofar as a “homeland” is concerned, personally I do believe that every community has the right to self-determination, however looking at the facts that stare us blatantly in the face, Khalistanis are a minority amongst the Sikhs in India and within the Diaspora, regardless of what internet presence they may drum up for themselves or how many Gurdwaras they may obtain control over to plaster photos of their heroes (usually in greater number than photos of any Sikh Gurus or Sikh female role models – unless of course it happens to be Mai Bhago, who has somehow become the ‘norm’ rather than the ‘exception’, displacing traditional Sikh role models such as the Guru’s sisters and wives and other devotees who are frequently mentioned in the Janam Sakhis, Gurbilas literature and even the Sri Dasam Granth Sahibm, to further they militant hyper-masculinity).

  163. deep singh — on 6th March, 2008 at 10:28 am  

    K Singh,

    What exactly are you trying to suggest under #162?

    The article is hardly a surprise given Bal Thackeray’s openly known views on such matters – it is not a surprise either that he is commonly referred to as the Bhindranwale of the Hindus.

    I would welcome your thoughts to the points I raised under #146.

  164. Parvinder Singh — on 6th March, 2008 at 12:26 pm  

    #162: K Singh ‘Interesting to see the rise of nationalism and regionalism in other states in India, this is a growing trend.’

    Shiv Sena’s tirade against Biharis and south Indians of late is similar to their objections against Bengalis a few years back. Scapegoating the ‘other’ is a hallmark of this nasty fascist party. However, Bihar is in a mess due to the mis-management and corruption of the state by leaders like Laloo Prasad Yadav, forcing people to leave in order to survive.

    You do, however, hear some Punjabis moaning about ‘Bahiyaas’ coming into Punjab and doing the menial jobs. In rural areas, the landowning farmers and their families have almost stopped doing any work on the land and hire Biharis on mass. In the cities Biharis are getting a good reputation as skilled craftsmen and construction workers (as my own personal experience has shown), and relations with indigenous Punjabis is cordial. Shiv Sena’s attempt to whip up sectarianism in the name of Marathi chauvinism in Mumbai is quite dangerous. So much for their Indian nationalism.
    see: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=Ne160208old_grouses.asp

  165. deep singh — on 7th March, 2008 at 9:17 am  

    “So much for their Indian nationalism”

    Parvinder, you raise a good point, but to take it at a tangent for a moment, ever since that brief encounter with the “RSS is a cultural not fascist organisation” promoting Indy on another thread, I have to be honest and say that “Indian nationalism” even at the best of times seems to be a hang over from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, aping the British mentality of the time and to some extent even the Nazis.

    The nonsense that Indy came out with under his other thread was ample enough proof of such a mindset and one that commonly pervades “educated” classes across India.

  166. deep singh — on 7th March, 2008 at 4:29 pm  

    Seeing that the Khalistanis have now largely backed off and are unable to answer the many questions outstanding, I would ask the PP moderators to close this thread to being closure to the discussion and as a testimony to their ill-founded beliefs and actions which tarnish the tradition of the Sikhs and the reputation of the Sikh community, wherever they be in the World and the underlying freedoms that the Khalistanis sitting in the comfort of their arm chairs in western democracies clearly fail to respect.

    I summarise below some outstanding points as closure from my side as I doubt any of the above issues are likely to receive a response (unless of course it is a threat) from the Khalistanis:

    1. A common rhetoric heard amongst the UK and Canada based Khalistanis is that they have to march for their brothers in India since, in India one cannot preach the Khalistani rhetoric, sadly that is all these chaps have – rhetoric. Let us consider the facts, looking recent elections in Punjab (a dominant location for Sikhs) as a rough barometer to gage the political opinions of the Sikhs, it is hard to find any successful candidate with a pro-Khalistani agenda. In recent years, Simranjit Singh Mann broke this trend and websites like http://www.sikhsangat.com and http://www.tapoban.org were frequently singing his praises in the run up to elections, until of course Mr Mann’s party failed to even achieve 0.5% of the votes.

    Similarly, if one considers the SAD (Shiromani Akali Dal) led by Parkash Singh Badal, it is clear that has had to avoid any mention of of ‘Sikh separatism’ or self-determination and even side with Hindu nationalistic parties to avoid painting itself as a ‘Sikh’ party, which only further goes to show that if indeed, as the Khalistanis like to argue, Sikh voters do hold separatist feelings, then surely the likes of Badal (a man well known for bending over backwards to support his political career) would have exploited any such opportunity to his advantage.

    I will allow the readers to conclude for themselves what the majority of Sikhs (practising or otherwise) in India and the Diaspora truly feel about any ‘Khalistan’.

    2. Khalistanis, particularly those from the AKJ and BKI schools of thought, not only love to rewrite Sikh history to support their personality cults, but also Indian history in general, no matter how antiquated or modern. In view of the earlier reference to Bhagat Singh, it is worth noting the long propaganda campaign by these two groups to somehow prove Bhagat Singh was reinitiated into Sikh rites at the behest of their founder Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh. Again, I will let the readers conclude for themselves as to the implications of such thinking and the motivations for attempting to show Bhagat Singh in such light.

    - Kultar Singh, the brother of Bhagat Singh has publicly on Indian TV confirmed that his family followed the Arya Samaj and several others from Bhagat Singh’s family have made clear that the photograph in jail with a top knot of uncut hair as per the Sikh tradition (which the AKJ and BKI claim to associate with the influence of Bhai Randhir Singh – an event that all his family deny, yet to this date is mentioned in elaborate terms in Bhai Randhir Singh’s autobiography distributed free of charge in many Gurdwaras supporting the Khalistanis) to be incorrect since the photograph relates to his first term in jail during the 1920s and 1931 prior to him being hanged.
    - For further evidence, the state museum in Chandigarh has the book which Bhagat Singh was reading the night before his execution (‘State and Revolution’ by Lenin) which has a page folded for purposes of a bookmark and furthermore Bhagat Singh’s own words are to the following effect:
    “…I have read of atheists facing all troubles quite boldly; so am I trying to stand like a man with an erect head to the last, even on the gallows….let us see how I carry on…one friend asked me to pray….when informed of my atheism, he said: “during your last days you will begin to believe.” I said: “No, dear Sir, it shall not be. I will think that to be an act of degradation and demoralisation on my part. For selfish motives I am not going to pray.” Readers and friends: Is this “vanity”? If it is, I stand for it….”

    3. Whilst we await the eagerly anticipated quotes from the Sri Dasam Granth which supposedly argue a case for Khalistan, readers can consider the following quotation from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the final seal and scriptures of the Sikhs and indeed for all Sikhs, myself included, the embodiment of the 10 Sikh Gurus and our eternal guide:

    “Raaj na chao Mukt na Chao Man preet charan kamalarey” (SGGS 534)

    [“I desire neither rule nor kingdom, only the love of your lotus feet”]

    I am sure that readers can ascertain from the above the position of Sikh scriptures on the subject of Khalistan.

    4. As mentioned above, the Dohra “Raj Karega Khalsa” is not composed by the Sikh Gurus and whilst I have no issues with this Dohra as a relevant Sikh practice, let us note its origins lie in the late 18th century, arguably the heydays of Sikh heroes and a time of grave persecution against the Sikh community, under which conditions it served to boost morale and also a message to then oppressors of the Sikh people, its relevance today is part of this tradition and legacy, what is worth noting in addition to my comments earlier on the same subject is that this Dohra was never sung after the Ardas prior to 1947 in the Malwa area of Punjab and even today many sects in the area simply end the Ardas with the Jaikara “Bole so Nihal, Sat Sri Akal!” [Truth is Eternal!], clearly pointing towards this being a tradition that has grown with the Sikh community rather than being some sort of divine mandate.

    5. Finally, the term ‘Khalistan’ first came into use by the late Dr Jagjit Singh Chauhan during the early 1970s in UK. Pakistani authorities had assisted him in his travel to the UK, where deemed to be Pakistani Government agent, he was barred entry to the Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Havelock Rd, Southall. He went on to take out a full page advert in a Punjabi weekly paper in Southall for his “Khalistan Airways”, which in fact was a PIA plane (the PIA painted over but still visible) painted yellow and bearing the name Khalistan Airways, thereafter being appropriated by subsequent Khalistanis as a term for their dreamt up ‘homeland’.

  167. Parvinder Singh — on 7th March, 2008 at 4:56 pm  

    ‘tarnish the tradition of the Sikhs and the reputation of the Sikh community’

    here here!

    Let’s bring closure to this argument about the need of a Khalisatan and concentrate on helping the victims and families of past human rights abuses, whether it be Delhi, Punjab or Gujarat and bring those responsible to book.

    We must all state loud and clear this must not happen -NEVER AGAIN!

    and build a truly puralist India.

  168. deep singh — on 7th March, 2008 at 6:12 pm  

    Parvinder Singh:

    “Let’s bring closure to this argument about the need of a Khalisatan and concentrate on helping the victims and families of past human rights abuses, whether it be Delhi, Punjab or Gujarat and bring those responsible to book.

    We must all state loud and clear this must not happen -NEVER AGAIN!”

    Totally concur – PP this should be the final conclusion on this matter and hope to see further coverage of such issues going forward (as previously done by Mr Hundal on the Punjab issue).

  169. s johal — on 8th March, 2008 at 5:39 pm  

    My question what constitutes a nation, I am surprised that I have not received a response from anybody outlining their case, for or against. The lost two comment suggesting that there is no need for a khalistan (sikh nation). We can interpret this as a yes, that khalistanis are entitled to one, but don’t need one. We must be clear that a religion or religious belief does not constitute a nation. Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism are all religions and not nations .For a geographical land to constitute a nation, certain characteristic must be present, language, culture ext. Please log on to htt: //en,Wikipedia org/.wiki/nation for correct analysis and further understanding of the national question. We can conclude that these are present amongst the Sikhs in the Punjab (one of Khalistanis main argument) but these are also present amongst, Hindus, Muslim, Christian, and nonbelievers. All Punjabis living in Punjab have these characteristic in common. The logical conclusion is that the Punjabis are a nation, like Bihar, Bengal and many more. If religion made up nations, then the whole of Europe would be Christian, and the Arab world would be known as Islamicstan. In The Arab world which is predominately Muslim, you have Iraqis, Kuwaitis and Iranian nations, same in Europe. Muslims in Kenya have got nothing in common with the Muslims in Pakistan or India apart from religion. A white Sikh in America as got nothing in common with a Sikh living in Amritsar. It’s not people that make nations, its nations that make people. These characteristic of nation are well accepted by the international law. I do apologies for not putting my case more academically or have more been articulated because I lack the skills.

    115 Sukhi.Murder of Baljit Kaur , showed the real side of Bhinderwala. I just want add some back ground facts to this heinous crime that only the likes of Nazis can commit. According to my conversation at that time with a Mr X .Baljit Kaur and her boyfriend, Shinda, who was a know gangster, were from the same village of Nirmnia, which latter changed its name to Jagpal. As you all well know that girls and boys from the same village are regarded as brother and sister. So they both left town and ended up at golden temple, were they joined up with the militants (one must not forget that those who joined the militancy were from the lumen elements of society, this is fact. During that period Shinda was prison, don’t know for what. When Shinda was in prison, Bhinderwala’s right hand man, Sodhi, misbehaved with Baljit Kuar who I presumed kept quiet at that time. Atfter Shinda’s release from prison, Baljit Kaur must have told him about Sodhi misbehaving with her. Sodhi was lured to a hotel by Baljit. The Mr X told me that Sodhi was shot dead by Bajit. After this incident they both went to the Golden Temlpe and informed the ‘Sant’ that they had done a good deed, that they had got rid of Sodhi who was a disgrace to the Panth, that you the Sant have always preached that the enemies of the Path should be put on the train (meaning bumped off ) May be the Khalistanis can verify this barbaric act or the Jathedars at the Golden Temple, who have just removed the portrait of the Butcher of Jallianwala Bagh and replaced it with the Butcher of Baljit and the Punjabis
    WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT BHINDERWALA WAS THE CREATION OF THE CONGRESS PARTY, UNLEASHED ON THE PEOPLE OF PUNJAB. THE GOVERNMENT HAS MANY MORE IN STOCK, ALL TYPES OF BREEDS.

  170. One time — on 8th March, 2008 at 6:20 pm  

    The only person who could have effectively argued for the establishment of a Sikh State convincingly is Muzumdar Babu.

    He is, however, banned.

    Therefore Sunny must bare some responsibility for the ‘anti-intellectualism’ he spoke of on Radio 4 and the abysmal nature of this thread.

  171. Jagraj Singh — on 8th March, 2008 at 7:04 pm  

    As a young British Sikh, an avid listener of Radio 4, “intelligent thought”, it was with some surprise that on turning on the radio last week, I heard a programme about the Sikh community in India and in the UK.

    Keen to listen, my surprise soon turned to annoyance and then frustration. Once the programme had finished, I has left with a sour taste in my mouth and feeling that I had been violated in some way, and perhaps betrayed. By whom? By Radio 4 of course. A supposed bastion of intelligent thought, it seemed to me that some real questions had been left unasked and a biased programme had been broadcast pandering to the thoughts of the presenter who had undoubtedly convinced a “progressive” editor that he was uncovering some hidden issues.

    So what was I annoyed about and what questions hadn’t been asked.

    At the initial part of the half-hour programme, 30 seconds were given to explaining that since 1984, many Sikhs had been involved in a struggle for an independent land, following an attack on the Sikh temples and anti Sikh pogroms in Delhi. In the next 20 years, thousands had died following police unlawful killings etc. But it also implied that that the situation had calmed down and many people here and in India felt that it was finished.

    It set the stage for its own unique viewpoint, i.e. that Sikh militants have not given up violence, rather they are trying to have a revival:
    (a) Ideologically they are committed to reviving the struggle and even though 2 major organisations are banned, their members are very active abroad; and
    (b) that financially the Sikhs in the Diaspora are still very much funding the campaign and that apparently Sikh temples in the UK are a battle ground where extremists are trying to take control in order to take finance this struggle.

    Underlying these 2 major claims is a recurrent theme, to portray the Sikh militants in the same light as Al Qaeda and the British Police as lacking with understanding or will to prosecute Sikh militants “glorifying terrorism”.

    I suppose as an intelligent listener, the first question I would have asked is:
    Why are the Sikhs so annoyed about being a part of India and has anything changed that should have settled the issue to an amicable end?

    The presenter did not talk about this at any point in the programme, even later on. Any one listening to the programme must have pondered, as I did, so what’s all this about. Much like you never cure a disease by treating the symptoms, the fact that the Indian police and government colluded to kill and torture so many young disaffected Sikhs that in the end, those left gave up hope or moved abroad, still does not mean that the causes of their disaffection were dealt with.

    What is galling however, is the assumption that the Indian Government had stopped its violence now. The programme asked: have the Sikh militants given up violence? It concluded that it hadn’t. It did not ask if the people in Punjab felt that their situation had improved, compared to start of the (as yet unexamined) independence movement.
    Listening to the presenter questioning a Sikh (freedom fighter/militant) the presented tried to get him to say whether he had killed anyone. It was quite disturbing, since the issue was moot, he had been acquitted and stated he was looking to politics to solve the issues. Was this question asked to any of the police interviewed? No.
    It seizes upon his statement that he retains his right to pick up arms if they are not treated with justice, even though he clearly states that he is now committed to the political process. This is exactly what every movement in human history has had to struggle with. The situation in Ireland would not have been resolved had the British not moved on from such un-intelligent analysis. Acceptance that both sides killed and that it had not achieved any resolution would have sufficed.

    The presenter pushed a claim that Sikh militants (Babbar Khalsa) were training in Pakistan with Kashmiri freedom fighters/militants (probably true). This is to the extent that the FBI has started to keep a list of 100 Sikhs who are being trained by these Kashmiris. It however made an amazing jump from this to then linking these Sikhs and Al Qaeda. Where did this come from?
    Even when the interviewee is clearly stating that the Sikhs had an Anti-Indian “marriage of convenience” with the Kashmiris, the presenter was intent upon ensuring that both the Kashmiris and Sikhs are associated with Al Qaeda. There is a wealth of literature about how the Kashmiris are trying to disassociate their regional independence movement from the “Islamic world jihad” preached by Al Qaeda. They are trying to be independent from all 3, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. A very tenuous link that was not questioned in the slightest, at least not intelligently.

    The programme then moved to the UK, where it brought up the ideological and monetary support being given to such militants. What is surprising about this part of the programme is just the pure lack of analysis. It linked a series of statements to build a case that did not seem to make sense. Yes there are Sikhs here committed to seeking Independence for the Sikhs from India. Yes, they took over temples and sent money abroad. Yes, they want to change things in India. But what? This is just not discussed. What we get instead is you-tube videos of speeches that the police ignore, of disenfranchised old men trying to talk about issues, inspire the youth here about what is happening in India. We get told about the Sikh federation lobbying parliament for Khalistan.
    Well, great, the Sikhs are trying to do things politically. Was the question ever asked as to what the British government has done to address their concerns? Was the question asked as to what the current situation in India is for Sikhs and what they would like to change?

    When we got told that there were 500 people disrupting a temple meeting, it was directly following an interview about money from Southall, especially since 1984, being sent to India. Fundraisers fighting for the liberation of Punjab were asking people to give money to buy a tank. We were told that although the situation had calmed down since then, recently opposition groups have been disrupting services in congregation, bringing in thugs who were drunk, the head priest was assaulted, and that the sanctity of gurudwara was violated, and this threat loomed again.
    I had 2 questions here. Who were these opposition members and did the want to send money to India? Or as more likely, are they just the opposition who want to be in charge, much like the current committee of self-important community leaders who are just as remote to the common British Sikh youth. I say this as a Sikh who has lived in Southall, dealt with the committee. I suspect the latter.
    The other question is that if the Sikh community gave such vast amounts of money when told explicitly that it would be used to buy a tank, does this not beg the question that this must have been an important and popular struggle. One can hardly see Sikhs donating money to if they did not feel that something as warlike as a tank was required to deal with the concerns of the time. So again, what were these concerns and have they been addressed or is the case that the symptoms, i.e., armed struggle, have been suppressed. But in any case, such intelligent and more important questions were not asked.

    The final point was brought up was the idea that even though money was mismanaged and there are threats of this happening again, that Sikhs are not prepared to talk about it. I wish at this point Radio 4 or BBC news had broadcast an ad asking for volunteers but I wasn’t so lucky. Instead, my old friend, Sunny Hundal was brought in, as one of those who was prepared. Since his career is as an ethnic affairs journalist, I suspect he was rather keen to do so. Sunny believes that the community is in a mess, that there is no intellectual debate and that although “most Sikhs in the UK care about the human rights abuses in India, they are also interested in what’s happening in the UK”. He dismisses the freedom movement in Punjab as a “1st Generation Issue”.
    Knowing Sunny quite well, I realised that although most of what he said was true and straight forward, he’d been used by the presenter, Portrayed as a bold Sikh prepared to speak out, if you ask him, as I often have, he doesn’t see himself as a Sikh and doesn’t speak enough Punjabi to decipher what the temples/speeches are about. He’s wrong, its not a “1st generation issue”, it’s a current issue and one that needs to be addressed at root cause. That being so, he is right that intelligent debate is missing from the Sikh community, and unfortunately, also from this Radio 4 programme.

    The reality is probably closer to this. There are a lot of young Sikhs who are interested in their religion and this number is growing quickly. These young Brits are daily shocked and in tears when they read about what happened to their people since 1947 and 1984. The brutalities of the Indian Government in dealing with the Sikh desire for independence were extreme and more importantly state sponsored. Yet the freedom fighter/militants also committed atrocities and need to face that they failed their Gurus.

    A more intelligent programme may have examined the issues that young Sikhs face when they educate themselves about issues that (mostly) occurred when they were babies, and unfortunately still occur today. Such as:

    • Should the Sikh community here not do something to help the Sikhs in India?
    • As a distinctive and nationalistic race, do they not have right to a degree of political and economic freedom from India?
    • How is a Sikh here to attempt to try to sort the massive level of corruption in Sikh politics in India?
    • How can the youth here try to introduce more English into Sikh temples?
    • How can Sikh here educate often the more powerful elders that backward practices such as caste discrimination are at odds with the Sikh teachings?
    • How can Sikhs here educate themselves about Sikhism, given the linguistic problems?
    • Do young Sikhs work with elders who cling onto power and stifle innovation or wait their time or push them out?
    • What can Sikhs offer the British people in terms of their Gurus teachings?
    • How can Sikhs educate the West to ensure their looks are not confused with militant Islam?
    • How are Sikhs to separate the bad things Punjabi culture brings, of alcohol and patriarchy from the Gurus ideals of spirituality and oneness?

    These and many more are what trouble me however, its quite patronising for the programme to conclude that the fight for an independent homeland is casting a shadow over young Sikhs and that the politics and religion is at odds. Its not a shadow, its the reality and the root causes of the struggle for independence need to be addressed, the betrayal of the Sikhs by Britain and Hindu leaders, the land of Punjab being split into 3, the interference of the Indian government in Sikh politics all designed to keep Sikhs confused and disorganised. The reality is that at some point in the future the Sikhs will have their own homeland or freedom to practise their religion and politics within a federal India. It is what the Kashmiris want for themselves as well.

    The community is indeed at a turning point. The point is this, previously Sikhs in India fought for an independent homeland. Now we in the West need to learn the Gurus way again, to meditate and spread the Gurus message, take it abroad and bring back the Sikh arts, the music, the hymns etc. and bring the debate into the 21st century. Freedom in Punjab will only come when we have freedom in India, and that will only come when we are a globally strong and organised community, like many others.

    The situation in Punjab is not a shadow, its the reality that Sikhs have to face. Sorting it out will take 100s of years but if the Gurus mission was to bring peace to the world, we’ve got our job cut out for us for 1000s of years yet.

  172. s johal — on 8th March, 2008 at 8:38 pm  

    171 listen my friend just log on to the site I have given above, read it; study it in a group, you do not have to be an intellectual’ just need simple logic. dont let yourself be brainwashed by others. I am not a intellectual’ you can tell by my writing. I care about my community,I don’t want them to be led to dead end. The way things are in the punjab at the moment, one thing is for sure, you are not going to end up with khalistan, but kalistan. The farmer are committing sucides. nearly 60% our youth are on some forms of drugs. Our daughter,sisters are been killed before they are born. Our sisters and mothers sell their bodies in the the market of human flesh.This is all happening in land of Guru Nanak Dev JI,Bulla Shah, Guru Gobind Singh JI, Shadeed Bhaghat Singh. The problem with us is , we are more concerned about God. then the children of God.

    RENCONIZE THE HUMAN RACE AS ONE (GURU GOBIND SINGH JI)

  173. s johal — on 8th March, 2008 at 11:31 pm  

    172 jagraj just couple of question.

    you say in your article: how can sikhs educate the west to ensure their looks are not confused with militant Islam. Can you please explain in full detail the difference between Teleban and Sikh with who wears a turban and bearded. Even I get confused when I see them on tele. my children come ruunning ‘daddy daddy look there a singh on the tele’

    How would you educate the West to tell the diffence between a mona sikh (thats if you except them as Sikhs) and Pakistani Punjabi Muslim or a Iranian. I remember after the 9/11 when Sikhs were attacked in America. the brainless sikh leader were telling Sikhs to wear saffron colored turbans. And were telling white Americans we are not Muslims. Basicly this ment that anybody not wearing safron turban could be target.What clowns. In stead of defending the vitims of racists attacks (which is the Duty of every true Sikh to defend the weak) Its like saying to the BNP am not a Paki Muslim Iam a Sikh Wog, what difference is that going to make, you still go to get your head kicked in. My friend please make sure your brain is engaged before you open your mouth. GOOD NIGHT

  174. GS — on 8th March, 2008 at 11:33 pm  

    Hi folks
    I just got back this evening from the monthly meet of the ‘Council of Sikh Gurdwaras of “our local city”‘ ( I am probably the youngest, clean-shaven non-practising Sikh General Secretary of a British Gurdwara) and the Radio 4 programme was mentioned (as being a bit far-fetched), although several older sensible men did agree that some Gurdwaras were still doing political conferences and sending money back to Pakistan/India for dubious purposes. Of course it all ties in with what PM Manmohan Singh said this week about there being a hard core of 200 radical militancy-supporting Sikhs in UK and North America who will still be black-listed from visiting India.

    Sunny, I thought i’d say greetings since it’s my first time. I must say I’ve been a little bored reading some of the comments above esp. about religion. Never mind.

  175. Sunny — on 9th March, 2008 at 5:33 pm  

    Hello all,

    I’m going to start a new thread on this on Monday as I have something interesting to kick it off with. Then I’ll respond to Jagraj and other points.

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