NOT EVEN A SINGLE CHARGE HAS BEEN PROVED IN ANY COURT IN THE WORLD AGAINST ASIF ALI ZARDARI! HOW CAN A MAN BE LABLED CORRUPT AS LONG AS HE HASN”T BEEN ‘CONVICTED ‘ in Any COURT! CORRUPTION CHARGES AGAINST POLITICIANS ARE A FAVOURITE TOOL OF AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES AND MILITARY DICTATORSHIPS IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD FOR DEPOLITICIZING THE SOCIETIES SO THAT THE MASSES’S ‘WON’T QUESTION’ THEIR LEGITIMACY! THIS IS WHAT PAKISTAN’S AUTHORITARIAN ELITE HAVE ALWAYS DONE TO THE MASSES’S MEN/WOMEN WHEN THEY COULDN’T ELIMINATE THEM PHYSICALLY LIKE BENAZIR.

Rest Assured if the PPP and their allies DON’T LIVE UP TO the Pledges of their mandate they too would be swept away in months !

Fouad

What about the USA – all free male suffrage since about 1850, the UK – almost all male suffrage since 1867, India and Sri Lanka – continuous electoral democracies since independence (apart from the 1972 Indira Gandhi screw-up). All these countries’ experience of electoral democracy began at the same time as low literacy rates, high corruption, poorly functioning judicial systems, lack of civil rights, and severe internal problems at times reaching the level of civil war.

Elections have not been (and still are not) a panacaea for all these countries’ problems – you need the other stuff that Sid mentions @20. But elections have been instrumental in bringing about economic and political progress in these countries by forcing their elites at least periodically to compete for the wider population’s support, and by faciliating peaceful transfer of power between Governments.

If you think Pakistan now is not ready for democracy, then you’d have to believe that 21st century Pakistanis are in some concrete way inferior to 19th century Americans and Brits and 20th century Indians. Don’t know about you Avi, but my personal experience doesn’t lead me to believe that.

Actually, I haven’t once said that democracy should be imposed on Pakistan. The recent elections, the dismantling of Musharraf, the rejection of single-issue Islamist agendae all suggest that that this isn’t Iraq we’re talking about.

You’re also guilty of trying to misprepresent me, because I haven’t said that democracy is all about elections.

I have always suggested democracy means the following:
1) A secular democracy
2) Creation of an indepennt judiciary
3) Creation of strong electoral institutions
4) A free press
5) An electorate that wants to vote its leaders in and out of power

Unless you can tick those off, elections don’t feature too highly in that list, as you can see.

Democracy by voting for a corrupt feudal family – yippppeee show me where to sign up!

A massively popular feudal family pitted against a less popular elitist technocrat. Not great choices, but nobody said democracy building was nothing if not a messy, evolutionary process.

Some people argued from your point of view when they disallowed the FIS’ electoral victory when they were legimately voted to power in Algeria. Back then it was the “West”, the same people you always decry whenever some issue or other comes up. Funny eh?

I haven’t said I don’t like democracy.
Why didn’t you say so in the first place? I’m glad we both agree that its the only viable method of governance in this day and age.

But soft! World Bank! erk!
You decry “the West” constantly and then you go and endorse probably the worst top-down, parochial institutional cack-handers of them all. If its not black then its white and then back to black again for you.

What I have said time and time again is democracy develops and isn’t imposed. Get it? Democracy develops and isn’t imposed.

How those bodies develop is with the help of external bodies and countries. Rid countries of corruption, develop education which then brings about a justice system. Then you get to people being able to select a leadership.

You are being very evasive about actually answering the point that you wouldn’t accept your godfather Tony imposing his son on the UK as leader. Yet you accept it for Pakistan because people get to vote for him. Why then is it ok for them but not you?

Simple question?

Even the USA has accepted that democracy cannot be imposed. But in the grand world of Sid that hasn’t hit home yet.

The West has to help the process by refusing to help corrupt 3rd world politicians hoard money in western banks. Tell me how Banzir and her husband were able to hoard billions into Western Bank accounts. Why did old Nawaz do the same?

If you want to build democracy then stop the corruption not put them in place to take even more. Maybe then the people won’t hate you for making their lives a complete and utter misery.

Sid – I have been told by a few people now of your lovely Benazir’s Husband when she was in power driving up to homes he quite liked and making the people sell at way below market price, they could either sell and get a little bit or he’d just take it. That is what you have just given the people of Pakistan Sid by supporting this nonsense.

How would you feel if it was your home that was taken in such a way?

My master plan is the same as the plan that is being advocated by many US Politicians, The World Bank, the UN etc. Heck we must be all wrong cause Sid knows best.

What are you proposing as a viable alternative?

As I have said previously my chosen process is to build the foundations of institutions needed for a stable and growing govt in all these countries. Namely education, justice for all etc. This is the same way things developed in the west.

And how is the executive bodies that control these institutions, commonly known as the ‘gabment’ going to be selected in your master plan?

As I have said previously my chosen process is to build the foundations of institutions needed for a stable and growing govt in all these countries. Namely education, justice for all etc. This is the same way things developed in the west.

Your way is a shortcut and its only route is to disaster. a disaster you don’t have to live with.

Explain to me why when these two corrupt politicians have been ousted 4 times between them will they change this time?

What you cannot grasp is that democracy needs certain fundementals to bed in. Those aren’t in place so what chance democracy?

As most Pakistani’s say over here he may be a dictator but at least he was starting to get rid of corruption. Instead you – Sid – are campaigning for those responsible for the corruption itself just because they pay lip service to democracy. Way to go.

If dear old Benazir was such an advocate of democracy as you proclaim why the hell did she pre-select an undergraduate to take over from her? Why not a vote for a leader?

Why is it the head of the PPP will be in Oxford studying and not doing whaqt the head of the PPP is supposed to do which is run the country? Hey Sid some democracy you are advocating. Lets face it Sid you have more access to the head of the PPP than people in Pakistan.

How would you feel if Blair when he stepped down had said his son would be taking over and as his son was at University his son then said he was spending most of his time in the USA to study and he would appoint a few chosen people to run the country? That’s the democracy you are pushing and then you wonder why people feel annoyed at what they are being given. Horray for this casue Sid said it is ok. You wouldn’t live by this but you expect others to because hey its democracy cause they got a vote for candidates appointed by the USA and UK. Gotta love your logic Sid.

Democracy by voting for a corrupt feudal family – yippppeee show me where to sign up!

Conspiciously, Avi you have emphatically argued against democracy and chosen to avoid my question. So I’ll ask again, what kind of alternative process are you proposing for Pakistan?

The thing about democracy in South Asian countries is that the politicians that espouse democracy typically have been benefiting greatly from the type of corruption that you describe. For instance, Nawaz Sharif made a ton of money ransacking banks in Pakistan for loans and reinvesting the proceeds. Kinda corrupt, I think. So “democracy” in South Asian is a farce with the corrupt deposing the corrupt through the “vote” of the South Asian working man. The new order merely continues exploitation of the system.

Democracy took hundreds of years to develop in the West and you and they are trying to fast track it and it is constantly failing. Instead of learning from this approach you want more of the same.

Pakistan like most of the Muslim World needs to develop the basic institutions first. The judges you so love in Pakistan are the same judges who themselves are part of the corruption problem.

Most people are ill-educated and won’t vote out their corrupt leaders as we have seen.

Thus when the mess occurs they blame the western system of – yes you got it – democracy.

If you actually read what I said I wasn’t blaming democracy but the mad rush for democracy at any cost in countries not ready for such a system.

So do you honestly think this time Pakistan’s experiment with democracy, the PPP and PML-N will be any better than last time? Hell no. Most people are already worried as they unlike you can see what is coming. Talk to most people from Pakistan and they wil tell you their relatives are worried and have no faith in these leaders.

How can democracy thrive when the parties themselves are family dynasties?

Surely you can see that for democracy to grow the parties need to vote for their leaders and not have them imposed.

Would the USA or UK find it acceptable for the people of Pakistan to select who may run in elections in the USA or UK? Why then is it acceptable for Pakistani’s to have the West prefer candidates for democracy?

Shouldn’t the West set an example and say these people have a tainted record and new leadership needs to emerge?

Hell no – you just want people to vote and screw the outcome or how that destroys peoples lives. Because they get to vote. Brilliant logic.

Instead of working to develop institutions to help people and get them to a point that democracy will flourish.

In 12 – 24 months time we’ll be here debating the corruption of your democratically elected leaders. Then say it was worth it when people react against the West.

Systemic, patronage-based corruption was part of the political culture in Pakistan before democracy was underway and it will be well into the future. That’s a fact of life. And unfortunately, this is the case with India and Bangladesh as well and many other democracies around the world.

However, democracy cannot be blamed for political corruption. At least voters can vote out the corrupt and the incompetent and vote in policies that honour due process and accountability.

Just out of interest, what kind of alternative process are you proposing for Pakistan.

You want for others what wouldn’t be fit for you. Lets send Mr 10% your bank a/c details so you can learn what it is like to be robbed of your money.