.. like you, was bemoaning the fact that often these ‘policies’ are completly abstract and headline-friendly, and give little thought to the actual detail.

absolutely. and it makes you wonder if they know what their departments are actually doing, or even care.

“But rumbold, there are ’specifics’ – those people who are subject to immigration control do have specific rules that apply to them. I guess the point is that the people at the top/politicians don’t really know what goes on with regards to implementation of these “broad policies”, as with most organisations, especially bureaucratic ones.”

Sorry, I did not make myself clear; I was in fact agreeing with you. You are right to say that there are specifics, and that they affect real people. I, like you, was bemoaning the fact that often these ‘policies’ are completly abstract and headline-friendly, and give little thought to the actual detail.

Douglas:

“Seriously, we have one law for the rich and another for the poor. It is some sort of economic deal. Obviously Abramhovich is unlikely to ever be a burden on the state, which seems to be the criteria for admission for, more or less anyone. It is just easier if you happen to own all the natural gas in trans Siberia.”

The rich find it easier to get jobs here, especially if they own the company employing them. It is a shame that there is unfariness, but I am not sure how useful legislation would be in this case.

“You really haven’t got it about the EU, have you? Mobility of labour, and indeed everyone else, is enshrined in it’s constitution. The French, let us say, would have to put up with Rumbold as their next door neighbour. You have rights, and so do they.”

It was not an attack on freedom of movement, which I fully support. The proposals realte to gaining citizenship, which I think should be the same for everyone. I do not see why EU citizens should be able to gain British nationality more easily than others, just as I should not be able to become French easily. Freedom of EU movement remains unimparied,even if the rules apply to everyone.

A councillor writes:

” really don’t approve of “provisional citizenship”, you are either a citizen or you aren’t and citizenship should not be revokable by the government for anything short of “treason” and no citizenship should be revokable if that person has no second citizenship.”

My support for provisional citizenship was based on the (probably mistaken) belief that such a state would only apply while the application was being processed. I would support a similar scheme for aslyum seekers; provisional right to work. I agree that the idea that citizenship could be cancelled if a criminal activity is committed is terrbile, as it undermines the idea of just punishments (everybody gets the same). If someone was convicted of treason, I would strip them of their citizenship, even if they were British from birth.

As for the other EU arrangements, they are actually a little more complicated in many EU countries than in the UK. Whilst residence is pretty easy to arrange (usually just register with the local authorities), an EU citizen still has to arrange work permits in many EU countries. It’s supposed to be a given, but it’s certainly a bureaucratic nightmare in Germany and can be very, very difficult in Italy.

I really don’t approve of “provisional citizenship”, you are either a citizen or you aren’t and citizenship should not be revokable by the government for anything short of “treason” and no citizenship should be revokable if that person has no second citizenship.

“letters from referees” – oh dear, this is going to be the passports debacle over again, isn’t it. For those who don’t know, for UK passports, you are supposed to have known the person for the appropriate amount of time. The legal advice is that councillors shouldn’t just sign because people are their constituents (and indeed, I get letters from IND about people who I have signed for on occasion). People do get quite indignant when I say “I’m sorry, but I can’t sign it”. I also imagine that some of those referees will start charging for such letters.

I had forgotten about the so-called transition arrangements for Bulgarians and Rumanians. I think I am right in saying though that these restrictions are time limited are they not?

I expect that what with Turkeys prosepective accession we’ll see a lot more of these weasel words.

of course, the problem now is really that as the EU gets bigger, the same reciprocal privileges that were a key part, seem to be up for reconsideration for the newer countries joining. like all the threats about Romanians (having the right to free entry), but having to apply for work authorisation. ( does anyone know if that is actually the case now? i need to go and trawl my friend the IND website.

ah here we are:

This page explains the restrictions that are in place on Bulgarian and Romanian nationals taking employment in the United Kingdom.

If you are a Bulgarian or Romanian national you are free to come to the United Kingdom to live. You will need to be able to support yourself and family in the United Kingdom without the help of public funds.

If you want to work as an employee in the United Kingdom you will need our permission before you start work. Details of the type of work you can take and how to apply for permission to work can be found in the Bulgarian and Romanian nationals section.

Once you have been working legally as an employee in the United Kingdom for 12 months without a break you will have full rights of free movement and will no longer need our permission to take work. You can then get a registration certificate confirming your right to live and work in the United Kingdom, although you are not obliged to do so. Details on how to apply for registration certificate can be found on the applying page.

You do not need our permission if you are working in a self-employed capacity. However, you can apply for a registration certificate to confirm your right to work as a self-employed person in the United Kingdom if you wish. More details can be found on the applying page.

there we go. Less restrictions than those applied to non EU citizens, and its interesting to see that if they are self-employed, they don’t need permission.

Thanks for taking my comments here in the spirit they were intended.

Rumbold,

Seriously, we have one law for the rich and another for the poor. It is some sort of economic deal. Obviously Abramhovich is unlikely to ever be a burden on the state, which seems to be the criteria for admission for, more or less anyone. It is just easier if you happen to own all the natural gas in trans Siberia.

You really haven’t got it about the EU, have you? Mobility of labour, and indeed everyone else, is enshrined in it’s constitution. The French, let us say, would have to put up with Rumbold as their next door neighbour. You have rights, and so do they.

that’s why im often suspicious of a lot of people who sit around and debate ‘policy’ – it seems to be ‘policy’ in the abstract, with very little bearing on what actually goes on, on the ground. (given that lots of them aren’t really “practitioners” of some kind but just professional debaters! this makes me all the more suspicious)

This government doesn’t like specifics, because someone may try and hold them to them later. What they like are broad sweeping policies, which look good on the front page of The Sun.

Douglas:

“What would be quite good would be if the Plutocrats were actually obliged to go through a citizenship process, y’know after they’ve bought over our football teams and stuff, and actually paid taxes.”

Heh- making Abramhovic sit in an exam room for three hours would be worth any hassle afterwards.

Avi Cohen:

“Now race is being taxed at different levels.”

I am not sure that anyone is suggesting that. What I do find interesting is that EU nationals are exempt. Why?

Deprivation of British nationality

Under amendments made by the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, British nationals can be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied “deprivation is conducive to the public good”. This provision has been in force since 16 June 2006 when the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum Act 2006 (Commencement No 1) Order 2006 came into force. This provision only applies to dual nationals — it is not applicable if deprivation would result in a person’s statelessness.

Prior to that date, since 2003, under amendments made by the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, British nationals could be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied they are responsible for acts seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom or an Overseas Territory.

British nationals who are naturalised or registered may have their certificates revoked (and hence lose British nationality) if British nationality was obtained by fraud or concealment of a material fact.

interesting..

Assuming it was the same test, I failed too.

I am actually quite pleased that I had no idea which day each of our patron saints was supposed to be celebrated on.

The questions were set by idiots.

How about:

In a secular society is it better to argue:

a) That your religion takes precedence, or

b) Hey, lets all get along together?

Or the amazingly inept:

Is it your intention to undermine our completely wonderful state by opposing it?

Answer yes and you will be subjected to the ducking stool, answer no and you will also be subjected to the ducking stool, ’cause we don’t believe you, you dirty foreigner you.

Quite obviously the right questions for foreigners should meet my agenda.

Are you a Plutocrat?

Answer yes or no.

Have you heard of Partick Thistle?

Answer yes or no.

Are you willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money, probaby billions on my, sorry, our football team?

You are?

Enter, friend.

And, might I say, the gas fields of Siberia are yours to give in the search for the European Cup. Please come, please pay no taxes, just get us that trophy.

What? You might be a bit of a crook?

Forfend, I say.

What was that about the Champions League?

Obviously, if there was one plutocratic person out there willing to play my game, he or she’d be a hero. The fact that, so far, they are money grabbing little tits makes me a bit suspicious.

“Ok, I agree that people should make an effort to speak english, and given the waiting time, that shouldn’t be a problem. you can get that by watching telly. Now I just don’t get that life in the uk test. I mean come on, 75%? 35 quid to sit the test? that’s just a way of draining money out of pockets! I asked 10 british friends to take the test and guess what? all 10 failed including myself. why don’t they ask people to write a small report on how they have contributed to the economy, on voluntary work carried out etc. and say why they feel they should become citizens. that would seem more fair! but 2500 questions to learn? get real.”

Give the people want they want, namely no more migrants. Populism at its very finest.

I don’t believe US or Canadian citizens even need visas for short stays….just a passport is sufficient. The issue of visas IMO is not related to connections to the UK rather it reflects the probablity that a nation will be deluged by foriegners seeking a better life if open borders existed. I doubt you have many people from the US desperate to head to the UK.

Let me make it clear here. I welcomed Sonia’s naturalisation (is that right?) in the sense that so, far, I have never disagreed with what she has to say on here And, if we ever did, it would be an honest debate.

So, under the new rules, lets look at me. Am I a person of status in the community? I have no idea. Could my comment, that:

“I have found Sonia to be very profound.”

be enough to meet the criteria?

involvement in the local community and letters from referees.

Would my words:

“Sonia has grown perhaps the best Maris Piper potatoes in the history of the allotment society”

have any more relevance than:

“Err, that bird Sonia, lives next door, seems all right”

Or are we looking for something like this, perhaps?

“As a completely wanky politician, I have never heard of her, and she should be deported this instant. “Is that all right?”"

Get a fucking grip.

{Sonia, I apologise, this is supposed to be satire. If I’d had another name, or a generic one to use, I’d have done it. But you are the only person I know that came through this lunacy sane.}