If George W Bush was really that bad, why did so many people vote him in, twice?

‘Fascinating how it was set wihtin such a ‘race-obsessed’ immigrant dialogue.’

And even more fascinating why it continues today, and why many of those involved in the 90s are now involved in leading Islamic initiatives in Britain. The sour politics of identity can only last for so long, this phenomena is not abating.

In the UK i meant

‘if you read Umar Lee’s blog Saqib, { Jihad of Umar] you’ll also find out many interesting things about the dynamics of conversion to Islam in the USA. Umar is one interesting character – there is a lot of subtext about masculinity and race. Fascinating reading again. But then that’s the great thing about the blogosphere isn’t it Saqib? ’

I’ve read Umar’s blog, and his excellent piece on the decline of the salafi dawah, which actually mirrors the split amongst salafis in the 90s. This time, i think Sonia, you are actually clutching at straws, as there is nothing in Umar’s very frank, honest and robust blog, which counter’s my points.

Certainly blogging is fascinating!

its the principle of the thing, yes, it made a big impact, and it was very important – to me.

a) it wasn’t “my religion” to leave – it was my “family’s” religion forced on me and had been made to look like a ‘wonderful thing’. I had resisted this for most of my growing up years, and naturally when i found out – a glimmer – that ” the wonderful thing” wasn’t quite so ‘wonderful’ – naturally it was a spark.

If more people had said about events back then – e.g. ‘ok look that was then, this is now, we know they did wrong’ then probably it would not have had such impact.

However – as far as i could see – there was the same ‘ostrich head in the sand’ as there was – with everything else that seemed problematic to me about islam. WHich suspiciously – despite being – there – in the history books, in the texts, enshrined in principles of islamic jurisprudence – was not being talked about. Too much dishonesty, – and then – even worse – not many people willing to engage with what i actually found in the Quran and the Hadiths – which were shocking to say the least. And then yes, finding out about the institutionalision of slavery and then pretending ‘it was humane’ was simply the last straw.
It made me FURIOUS that everyone is fed this ‘glory glory’ business all these years. Oh your Prophet was a good man, well sorry, by the standards I found out about – and my own ethics – sorry, but no he wasn’t – not in my opinion!

To me, it represented the ‘credentials’ of the men who transmitted the religious narrative down. And the scholars who institutionalised slavery in fiqh used examples from the Sunnah – the life of the Prophet – to do so. If i thought they were dodgy – and that the Prophet wasn’t anywhere near as squeaky clean as he had been made out to be – well then, naturally it had an impact on me. I’m not going to go and trust some fellow who turns out to be dodgier than the dodgiest Mullah around ( and for me – it was a revelation – aha! so this is where the dodgy mullahs’ get their inspiration from) Trusting a bunch of clearly oppressive men didn’t sit well with the rest of my ethics.

Generally, the family-fed religion paints a picture of ‘pious folk’ which didn’t seem to match up to anything one actually found out about Islam. And let me tell you they keep schtum about all this when they are force feeding you it as a child.

As a child i had been very angry with what appeared to be unfair bias against women, but had been told ‘oh its just a ‘twist’ REAL islam isn’t like this’, and for some reason, i believed my parents, reserved my ire for the ‘dodgy mullahs’. And God sounded a bit of a prick and frankly i wanted nothing to do with Him, his rules, and Hell. And yes, as it was effectively ‘forced’ on me, like it is forced on everyone else, which i wasn’t happy about, but the spectre of hell meant i didn’t want to think about and stayed away from religion, including the “holy” books. If only i’d had a good look when i was younger, if only i’d known about our actual history, what it actually says in our ‘holy books’ why yes it would have been clear to me from the start that the whole thing was a bit of a masquerade. ( and saved myself a lot of mental abuse) As so the fear factor kept me away for a long time, and then finding out just what our Rightly Guided friends were upto – was indeed the spark.

So..yes what happened many years ago – was relevant to me, as providing context, within which to evaluate the “message”. I’m not worried people will start going around having sex slaves now – i think it goes to show how much more civilised people are – than some of our “friends” from way back then. And thank goodness for that!

And can i say, i know some people might be surprised as to why it took so long to offload religion, the great thing about the internet is i know i’m not the only one. being able to communicate with others who have similar issues, has been so liberating. previously, with the kind of ‘communal’ peer pressure, you’d never be able to get away with saying by the way..’so i actually read some really disgusting things about the prophet’.. without being greeted with “Astagfirullah!” Haram Haram! wherever you went. That social pressure is incredible.

probably more than you wanted to know Ravi, but there you go.

‘You have to give Muhammad something though – the man was not afraid to break with history and his ancestors – unlike so many of his current day followers – sycophantic ‘we will follow our ancestors’ sort of attitudes.’

Again, another strawman argument, for many are rejecting their parents rather apologetic understanding of Islam, and are returning to scripture…do you actually keep up to date with the news, or are you solely relying on your out-of-date experiences of living in ‘Muslim majority states’?

‘Of course one of the real issues – is the fact that the common argument that is brought up is ‘well if it were so crap, why are there so many Muslims’. And this is the thing. The real trick is the forcing thorugh centuries of a “family-based” Muslim identity that is darn well difficult to be rid of, and the fact that so many ‘ex-Muslims’ are shadowy figures, ‘Muslim’ to their families. No one really wants to talk about that, do they?’

Yes, which would also explain why, according to the media and some think tanks younger Muslims are more radical then their parents generation, Islam is in the ascendancy in the Muslim world, and why Islam is actually growing in conversation in Britain and wider in the West. again, there must be something more substantive then just ‘fear’ or family ‘pressure’, especially when so many feel so passionately.

There you go Sonia, another strawman brought down.

‘yes i daresay my logic is “impaired”’

I said that to Mariam not you Sonia.

‘Why a country that was the cradle of such a ’substantive’ message – and seems to not have benefited from this ‘culture and civilisation’, is anyone’s guess.

Come on Sonia, you can do better then that, civilizations, nations, cultures decline and fall. You have to assess the general impact on history. Would you view the entire enlightenment project in the prism of the barbarism it unleashed with violent fascist ideologies, and bloody revolutions, which killed more people then perhaps in known history. No, neither would I. The Enlightenment gave us our modern world, and moreover is considered a source of inspiration. This is not diminshed by the, if you like ‘black spots’.

By the way slavery was actually gradually abolished in Arabia within a few decades in Arabia following the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) death, though of course you are right, it did continue in other parts. Sometimes this was with regards to prisomers of wars who were later released. I don’t agree with slavery as a concept and would be happy to agree with you that its exploitation by greedy merchants was disgraceful. It would also be true, that European slavery had a distinctly racist character to it, the problems of which are still with us today.

However Sonia, none of this disproves my point about substantive messages, because that is evidenced and acknowledged by other people. Better to do away with the straw man arguments.

You have to give Muhammad something though – the man was not afraid to break with history and his ancestors – unlike so many of his current day followers – sycophantic ‘we will follow our ancestors’ sort of attitudes.

Of course one of the real issues – is the fact that the common argument that is brought up is ‘well if it were so crap, why are there so many Muslims’. And this is the thing. The real trick is the forcing thorugh centuries of a “family-based” Muslim identity that is darn well difficult to be rid of, and the fact that so many ‘ex-Muslims’ are shadowy figures, ‘Muslim’ to their families. No one really wants to talk about that, do they?

It was on her blog that I first found out about sex slavery “<a href=”http://achelois.wordpress.com/2007/01/28/concubines-in-islam/”concubinage” in islam as well – (which was the critical turning point for me, i.e. on the way out)

Sonia, did you leave your religion because of what happened 1400 years ago?

‘I am really quite fond of you, but when you come up with contrary stuff, well…’

I don’t see contradictions, though i could have made the point better and more fluently.

Sorry, about Zia, I know about it, but don’t follow it. I prefer to focus on scholars and academics works then just odd trivial pursuits. Hence I have read Zia writings on Islam and Post-modernism, and some of his NS articles.