The Yanks owe us a favour anyway, after the way they backstabbed us after the Soviet pullout from Afganistan and the 1998 nuclear tests (India’s larger economy was far less damaged by sanctions than Pakistans…..

oh yah ? the Yanks owe you an apology ???

Year after year since independence Pakistans fiscal Deficit has been covered by American dollars. If the Americans hadn’t supported you financially you would have long ago stand disintegrated into chaos.

How did they backstab you ? Zia , ISI ,military officers, Jihadis and Pakistan’s military-industrial complex made millions from American grant. Why the fuck would they keep on paying after the soviets withdrew from Afganistan ?

Remember mate ….Pakistan nation would not be able to survive a day without the West. And how you have repaid the West?

For fuck’s sake be grateful to Americans.

It’s a sad indictement of the ignorance about the holocaust manifest within the younger generation that Vikrant could utter such a foolish thing.

For the record, I don’t have anything against Hindus or Indians per se. It is the nation state of India, and the perpetual menace it presents to both its own people and the citizens of other nations such as Pakistan, which I criticise and I am well within my rights to do so, just as Rohin and Sunny criticise Pakistan. Until I see credible evidence that India has accepted the reality of Partition and dropped its obsession with destroying Pakistan, the Indian nation will always be a threat to the lives of 160 million Pakistanis.

I must admit admit Raz that you are a good practioner of the English language.

BTW…How old are you ? 15 or 16 ?

This shows your ignorance. Per capita income is everything. The fact that both Pakistan and India have such low per capita incomes is proof that neither can lecture the other on economic matters.

“Both countries are poor. lets accept that simple fact”

LOL, don’t you understand. This is exactly the point I was making to Rohin. Indians should not talk about ‘Pakistan being left behind economically’ when so many of their own people live in poverty. Likewise, Pakistanis cannot claim to have left India behind when Indians economy is so much bigger than Pakistan. Sadly, in your usual ‘Jai Hind’ mode, you interpreted my words as somehow claiming that Pakistan was superior to India economically.

BTW, as I stated before, I’m a great admirer of the economic progress made in India, and I would like to see Pakistan emulate this (gasp says Vikrant – Hindu hating, India bashing Islamofacist Raz admires something about India?!) Also, while Pakistan fares better than India in terms of economic poverty, India has the advantage in terms of human poverty due to better literacy (double gasp says Vikrant – Hindu hating, India bashing Islamofacist Raz admits India is superior to Pakistan in some way??!!). This doesn’t mean I think India is a superior nation to Pakistan – it means I am realistic enough to admit that there are some things that Pakistan can learn from India. Now the question is: Will we ever see Vikrant admiring Pakistan? Will we ever see Vikrant admitting Pakistan is superior to India in some ways? Will we ever see Vikrant wanting India to learn something from Pakistan? He may be young and misguided, but I still have faith in young Vikrant to pull through

There’s a famous Latin proverb which I think Vikrant (and indeed all Asians) could benefit from:

“It is right to be taught, even by an enemy”

Sunny, I hope you’ll agree

Either way, by throwing these UN figures at each other, you’re not getting anywhere. This conversation could and probably will go on forever. I’ve seen so many of them, and participated in a few myself, that I realise how futile they are. The sooner you two also accept that, the better.
We all need to do better economically and socially.

per capita income is nothing. India has population of 1.1 billion people whlist Pakistan has 160 million. If Pakistan’s per cpaita income in less than India’s inspite of far lesser population than it indeed a shame. What i’m pointing out is lets not get into the figures game. Its leads us nowhere.Both countries are poor lets accept that simple fact.

If you want the UN stats about both countries go here:

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/india_statistics.html

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/pakistan_pakistan_statistics.html

And nobody was discussing literacy here, so don’t try an divert the topic in your usual fashion, unless you want me to bring up the Indian HIV epidemic again. If you were following my conversation with Rohin, you would see that my bone of contention is that I don’t believe Rohin can claim that Pakistan has been ‘economically left behind’ by India when:

1 – Indias GDP per capita is hardly better than Pakistan.
2- Pakistans economy has been resurgent since 9/11 and its growth rate is now second only to China in the region.
3- Pakistans GDP per capita may well overtake India in the next few years.
4- India has (by your own UN standards) more poverty than Pakistan.

Never did I argue that Pakistan was somehow economically ‘better’ than India, although in your normal bigoted way that is what you have assumed. Why didn’t you read the first line I posted:

“I am an admirer of the recent Indian economic boom”

I wonder if we would ever see you posting about being an admirer of the recent Pakistani economic boom? I doubt it somehow. My point to Rohin was that India is NOT in a position to be lecturing Pakistan about economic matters when so much of its population still lives in poverty.

As for percentage.. its around 25% AND dropping And by sheer numbers India does have 400 million people who enjoy same/comparable lifestyle as we in the west. Ofcourse India is bound to have many poor since it has 1.1 billion people but if you are talking about percentage, c’mon man, Most African nation and Even many Asian countries fare badlythan India.Musharraf is there to serve himself. As for education Indian literacy stand at 66% and Pakistan even with much smaller population barely manages 47%. Moreover Indian exports are much more diversified and huge as compared to Pakistan. You really cant compare those two economies as they are very different in nature.

As for poverty figures UN doesnt agree with you Raz. Seems to them that it stands at 40%. Nicetry but i’m not buying it. Both nations have many poor people lets not get into typical nationalistic trapping of my-nations-figures-are-btter-than-yours.

Here are a few things i’d like to say.

1. Secularism and Left are not synonymous. Indian left has used casteism and communal appeasemnt to its own benifit. You can be Right-wing and you can be secular.

Just as when left (commies to be exact) supported the USSR and behaved irresponsibly towards the nation, their current activities have highlighted their irrelevance to the needs of Indian politics and the wishes of the people. I won’t be surprised if, a decade from now, we’ll hear of a “revaluation” of the achievements of Dr Kalam. As George Santayana said, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

It’s called “tunnel vision.” left are blind to the reality around them and obsessed with one particular idea: In India, they call it “secularism.” The rest of us recognise this drive and drivel as anti-nationalism fed by a hatred of Hinduism itself and the desire to break up the polity into tiny, more easily exploitable pieces (the accursed caste factor). Therefore, anybody who stands between India and balkanisation is promptly labelled a fascist-communalist-force that must be defeated. Including Dr Kalam.

Here are a few nuggets by some of the most objective and detached analysts ever to grace op-ed pages — Praful Bidwai, Amulya Ganguli and Seema Mustafa:

* Kalam has many outlandish ideas, including combining the occult with hardcore science, powering airliners with nuclear fission, and putting “bio-implants” into “deficient” brains. But in common with “the Advani thesis” is his abiding faith in the military-industrial complex as the motor of progress.
* Dogged advocacy of militarisation is the sole public face of Kalam, an engineer-turned-manager, wrongly called a “scientist” by sections of the media which go into a paroxysm each time a missile is test-flown.
* But Kalam may be too much of the RSS’s “poster-boy Muslim”
* And what is the image of a nationalist Muslim as represented by Kalam? A man who swears by the nuclear bomb, who has no reservations about military conflict and who is not a religious, or overtly practicing Muslim.
* He is also a vegetarian and a bachelor “like us” as the VHP just declared.
* It was imperative to counter the BJP propaganda that it was supportive of Muslims (of the bomb variety?)
* According to him… “it would require a strong, highly-willed nation” to decide on building the missiles. By adopting this simple-minded macho attitude, Kalam relegated virtually all the world, except the Big Five, into the category of weak-willed nations. But it isn’t ICBMs alone which make a country “strong.”
* But it has to be remembered that however thrilled Kalam may have been with his big bang, it made a mess of India’s finely crafted nuclear policy.

Can’t guess which line belongs to which “secularist,” right? Well, that’s one symptom of their tunnel-vision malady.

As for those impressive figures you quote, boom in Pakistan is reaching out only to the elite class from which you are most likely to belong. Economic must translate into infrastructural development especially in Balochistan and NWFP. I hear the Sindhis arent happy too with all the Pathans,Mojahirs and Punjabis migrating to Sindh. Well thats what a Sindhi friend of mine says. As for growth figure, when an economy is small and it develops, thegrowth is boundto be astronomical but it slows down as country becomes more affluent. India is 4th largest Asian economy man.

You’re very much correct that the war on terror has been a great filip for us. The Yanks owe us a favour anyway, after the way they backstabbed us after the Soviet pullout from Afganistan and the 1998 nuclear tests (India’s larger economy was far less damaged by sanctions than Pakistans – and remember who tested first ) But don’t forget that Shaukat Aziz’s economic policies have also been very effective -the World Bank has singled out Pakistan for praise for its recent economic upturn. I have no doubt that if Musharaf stays for the next few years, you will see Pakistan going onward and upward. It’s testament to the current economic positon of Pakistan that most analysts agree the terrible recent earthquake will not significantly impact Pakistan’s growth (of course, we are relying on those billions of dollars pledged to us in aid actually materialising )

Absolutely, I meant to write this and I forgot.

One of PP’s strengths is that we have Hindus, Muslims, atheists (dammit why don’t we get a capital letter?), Brits, Americans, whites, browns, Indians, Pakistanis, the odd Bangladeshi and so forth. It’s CRUCIAL we have all sides otherwise this becomes an agree-fest which is what often lets down a site I otherwise love, our American cousins Sepia Mutiny.

Raz you put your finger on why Pakistan has been moving forward economically – 9/11. Once again I’m getting ejected from an Internet café (London I miss you so), so let’s not begin a big debate – we’ll save it for another day! But Pakistan has, essentially, benefitted hugely from the War on Terror. The yanks have pumped cash in since then.

Except when ummah comes calling we are filthy kaffirs. I know there are many Muslim Rajputs. They just dont realise we share same ethnicity and ancestors. Peddling of Saudi-style-Wahhabism in Pakistan by KSA has been a disaster for Hindu-Muslim relations in sub-continent.

And mind you theres a very litle hope that Kashmiri Pandits can go back. Its their very own people who turned against them. Ethnic cleansing of minority is impossible without complicity of majority populance of area.

LOL

While I’m an admirer of the recent Indian economic boom, don’t get carried away. Pakistan outperformed India for most of its existance – indeed there was a time
when nations such as South Korea copied out development plans. Only thanks to the corruption of the (democratic) Bhutto/Sharif regimes did we fall behind. Since Musharaf came to power, and particularly since the 9/11 attacks, the Pakistani economy has been moving steadily forward. Pakistans growth rate of 8.4% last year was second only to China in the region, Forex reserves are at record levels and the KSE has been the best performing market in the world for the last few years. It wouldn’t suprise me if Pakistans GDP per capita overtakes India again in a few years.

Instead of worrying about Pakistan, worry about the 350 odd million Indians (something like 35% of the population as opposed to about 13% in Pakistan) who live on under $1 a day.

Maybe I am a one trick pony sometimes (I am trying to reform myself, honest ), but let’s be honest, this site has plenty of Indians already. No harm in letting the other side have its say too

I only highlight Vikrant’s age as it reminds me of how I was.

Having said that, I can respect where Raz is coming from more. He has the tendency to be a one-trick uncle on here , always bringing up Pakistan. But at least he respects my right to the opposite opinion on his country.

Vikrant, why do you think wanting Pakistan to be our friends is a bad thing? I don’t think they are our friends NOW. But wouldn’t it be nicer for us to spend less on the military and more on poverty? Wouldn’t it be nice for Kashmiri Pandits to leave refugee camps and go home? These things can’t happen by crushing Pakistan into the ground, only by concerted, slow, negotiations. As India grows in stature and might, Pakistan will be more keen to resolve things peacefully as they get economically left behind.

Why do you use ‘left’ as such a blanket term? As if it’s some monolithic group where all members act the same? What left Sanskrit phobia are you talking about? I’ve heard of no such thing. My family have all been schooled in Sanskrit and we’re firmly on the secular left.