Is the Sikh community on the brink of crisis?


by Jay Singh
20th November, 2005 at 1:46 pm    

Last weekend a confrontation took place at a Gurdwara in Leamington Spa lead by as yet unknown people who objected to meat and alcohol being consumed in a building that is associated with a local Gurdwara. In the ensuing melee old men were attacked and a visiting MP was hurt.

Let there be no doubt about this – if it is found that Gurdwara revenue has been used for subsiding the consumption of meat or alcohol, money given by the local congregation for charitable and community purposes, it shows a degree of moral corruption by the committee members that will be considered as a very serious malfeasance by the Sikh community in Britain.

Gurdwaras are places of worship and peace as well as charitable missions and should not become the private fiefdom of men on power trips and these are issues that need to be dealt with urgently.

However, this situation has highlighted a worrying trend, and that is the eagerness with which some young British Sikhs are willing to use unrestricted mob violence to enforce their way. Ever since the storming of the Birmingham Rep over the play Behzti these extremists have become emboldened and speak openly on message boards of their intention to ‘teach people lessons’ and how they are willing to give up their lives in their riots and confrontations.

It is only a matter of time, I believe, before someone is seriously wounded or killed as a result of the violence meted out by these individuals. They are utterly uncompromising and fanatical and talk openly of their ability to raise a lynch mob at short notice and travel anywhere in the country where they wish to make a show of force.

This is beginning to look like a pattern of mob violence by volatile extremists who have set themselves up on a mission to purify Sikhism of all its apostate and unorthodox practitioners. Quite apart from the violence involved and the risk of innocent people being harmed, we have to ask, where will such a mentality stop?

Attacking old men as a result of Gurdwara corruption and politics is one thing, but can we trust these users and raisers of mob violence when they say that it is not their intention to become like a gang of religious police with their judgment hanging over Sikhs in public and private life in Britain?

It goes without saying, of course, that if this kind of thing escalates and happens regularly the actions of these people will soon make Sikhism a religion in Britain synonymous with mob violence and aggressiveness, but having read the views of some of these people I come to the conclusion that this is something they do not care about.

In a final comic irony, it is often these ‘activists’ who complain and moan the loudest about the ‘bad image’ and misrepresentation of Sikhi by the British media.

We need to think of ways for community disputes to be addressed effectively before the Sikhs of Britain are engulfed in a wave of anarchy and mob violence and self appointed vigilantes become so puffed up with their power that they destroy through their excessive zeal the peaceful and hard working image of Sikhs in Britain today as well as our community cohesion and unity.

In the meantime, for more context and exploration of this issue, please listen to this excellent documentary that was recently broadcast by BBC Radio 4 called The Birmingham Rep Riots: Behind the Scenes presented by the award winning Sikh journalist Amardeep Bassey.

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  1. blue mountain — on 20th November, 2005 at 1:53 pm  

    Is it true that Khalistanis still dominate managemant of UK gurdwaras as Saudi Wahabis control majority of mosques in the US ?

  2. raz — on 20th November, 2005 at 1:57 pm  

    Is the Behzti play going to be restaged anywhere?

  3. blue mountain — on 20th November, 2005 at 2:07 pm  

    Nice analysis here:

    Link 1
    Link 2

  4. Yusuf Smith — on 20th November, 2005 at 2:32 pm  

    raz: what I heard was that the author didn’t want it restaged.

  5. SKye-Vee — on 20th November, 2005 at 2:39 pm  

    I’m Hindu but I visit Gurdwara’s on occassion. Even more so then a Mandir. Both places have equal significance in my life.

    The people have a right to be angry. Meat and alcohol in a Gurdwara is bang out of order. People should have just boycotted the place. Withdraw their support. People’s anger could have been used in other ways.

    It’s a shame that a few people had to resort so quickly to violence. Yes show pride for your values, and be aggrieved if those values are affronted. Violence however is a last resort and should never have been considered unless all other avenues have been exhausted.

    People in general are too quick to lose their rag these days. So easily whipped up by hotheads.

  6. raz — on 20th November, 2005 at 3:10 pm  

    “raz: what I heard was that the author didn’t want it restaged”

    yes, I’ve heard that too. It kind of gives the impression that the extremists won.

  7. Leon — on 20th November, 2005 at 4:03 pm  

    Interesting article JS. Not sure a few incidents if idiocy means the British Sikh community is on the verge of crisis though.

    Imo, if the Sikh community are really concerned with the actions of a few (like you suggest) they should get organised and active ASAP, make sure they get some people on TV whenever these things come up to reject the violence and look at ways of opening up the way each Gurdwara is run to more indepth scrutiny.

    Maybe it’s time the UK had a regulartory faith body that looks into how all churches, Mosques, Mandirs, Gurdwaras etc are run?

  8. BALLY — on 20th November, 2005 at 5:09 pm  

    Since when have gurdwaras been place of worship?
    A gurdwara is a place of learning, this is its function, well supposed to be. We are supposed to go gurdwara and learn something from our guru, understand and contemplate upon it. For a sikh, worship is 24/7, its the concept of “naam”. In my opinion, the biggest crisis is itself the lack of naam. This is where all this corruption, ego, arrogance and ignorance of gurus teachings comes from.

    Peace.

  9. pecan — on 20th November, 2005 at 5:41 pm  

    no offence to anyone but i used to visit my local temple a few times a week -ever since i was little but we have found that management issues and feuds have overtaken this particular temple (no names obviously) so now i jst don’t go because some people their have their own agendas. i do now believe that god resides in my heart, not in a set place.

  10. Vladimir — on 20th November, 2005 at 5:56 pm  

    “Religion is the opium of the masses” :)

  11. Jeet — on 20th November, 2005 at 7:00 pm  

    blue mountain

    The majority of Gurdwaras are in the control of Khalistanis in Britian as much as the majority of Mandirs in Britain are under the control of extremist RSS Gujarat genocide supporting Hindu fascists ie: maybe one or two but not enough to tar the entire Hindu community with a brush as you seek to do with others regarding the ‘control’ of the respective palces of worship.

    Good article – I hope to see more like this, although I agree that these are bad things but I’m not sure it puts the Sikh community on the verge of a crisis.

  12. Jeet — on 20th November, 2005 at 7:02 pm  

    There is a large degree of Gurdwara politics and rivalry involved in this issue – the activists need to calm down but it is unnaceptable that individuals misuse Gurdwara funds like this.

  13. Jeet — on 20th November, 2005 at 7:27 pm  

    Whoops! I posted this in the wrong place. Seeing as Yusuf Smith has contributed to this thread about the Sikh community in Britain, it belongs here.

    +++++++++++++++

    Yusuf Smith wrote an article a few years ago about Ahmaddiya Muslims in which he described Sikhism as a ‘cult’.

    That is the religion of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh, with 25 million followers worldwide, described by this white convert to Islam as a ‘cult’

    Here is the exact quote:

    [[and most of these are Punjabis, as with the Sikh cult]]

    Nice to see him hanging around a website where Sikhs play an active role whose religion he dismisses so arrogantly and with such vile hatred (and even commenting on a thread about Sikhism!)

    Its amazing that his essay on why Qadianis are apostates could not be written without this impudent contemptuousness towardsd Sikhs.

    Personally I couldnt care less about Qadianis.

    But why does he hang around on a website in which Sikhs play a large part, given that he considers their religion to me a mere ‘cult’?

    Read it here:

    http://alhafeez.org/rashid/yusuf_smith.html

    ————

    In the meantime, Yusuf Smith, I can think of a word that sounds like cult, that I use to describe you ;-)

  14. douglas — on 20th November, 2005 at 9:26 pm  

    Surprise, surprise. I find it completely ridiculous that anyone commits violence in the cause of a religion. I might as well kill you for disbelieving Little Red Riding Hood.

    It might come as a surprise to some of your readership, but there is no God, Christian, Moslem, Seikh or Jewish. It is a figment of your imagination, an evil in your breast. Killing folk in the name of a non existent God is the ultimate human stupidity.

    Imagine that.

    douglas

  15. Sunny — on 20th November, 2005 at 10:19 pm  

    Jeet – that is silly. So Yusuf may not be fully aware of Sikhi. The correct way to have a dialogue would be to point out why it is not a cult. The stupid way would be to start cussing him as you are doing.

    whose religion he dismisses so arrogantly and with such vile hatred
    And that is just stupid too. Making too many silly assumptions. Stick to the topic.

  16. Robert — on 20th November, 2005 at 11:16 pm  

    Douglas – what a lazy, lazy comment.

    The article isn’t about inter-religious fighting, or even about the truth or falsehood of religion. Its about relations within a particular community. The truth of any religious tenets in Sikhism or anywhere else is not relevant to whether certain community leaders are hypocritcally breaking their own rules, and whether they are providing responsible leadership. This is a sociological argument, not a theological one.

    In any case, Sikhism isn’t monotheistic, is it?

  17. Sunny — on 20th November, 2005 at 11:25 pm  

    Robert – it definitely is.
    As is Hinduism, despite the widespread misunderstanding that many dieties = many gods.

    Regarding the topic, I had a chat with a family friend about this. It seems the problem is this.

    Many Gurudwaras committees have been building or buying adjacent buildings next to Gurudwaras in order to boost their income. Some are clearly happy to let out the buildings for weddings and parties and make money etc (for the Gurudwara I assume. let’s not forget more are registered charities so don’t automatically assume corruption).

    The problem is there is no consensus on whether these adjacent buildings should be used for a party or not. They could either sell it off, and then its not Gurudwara property, yet the events take place, or do it themselves.

    This is compounded by the fact that the Gurudwara mgmt people in the UK can’t come together and figure out how they want to proceed. So you have a self-styled “righteousness squad” who are happy to use violence to enforce how they view things should be done.

    Typical punjabis.

  18. blue mountain — on 21st November, 2005 at 4:47 am  

    Both religion and communism are opium of the masses

  19. douglas — on 21st November, 2005 at 8:35 am  

    Robert,

    The comment I made was actually considered. I have been following the mind games that religious leaders propogate for a long time. It is pretty apparent that the control that they have over their respective flocks is as much of an excuse for their ludicrous self aggrandisement and moral puffery as any genuine attempt to approach the divine, in itself a pretty pointless exercise IMVHO, but relatively harmless.

    It has been suggested by others here that violence should have been the last resort. It should have been no resort whatsoever. There are plenty of other courses of action that can arrive at a satisfactory outcome. Attacking old folk is not one of them.

    Whilst the two events are unrelated, the ‘troubles’ in Birmingham over an alleged rape which I believe is as yet unsubstantiated, give evidence to the idea that if you are going to lead a community, you have a responsibility to lead it in a moderate and sensible direction, rather than down a course that will inevitably lead to wider conflict.

    I find the willingness of the religious to be led completely reprehensible.

    douglas

  20. Mirax — on 21st November, 2005 at 8:53 am  

    There were reports some time back- earlier in the year- about gangs of young sikh men who bussed themselves down to attack a sikh wedding which was then being held in a public place where alcohol was being served. Their aim was to rescue the granth from being ‘defiled’ – the holy book was ‘rescued’ after a scuffle with the elder then carrying it aloft on his head.

    The greater pity was the sikh community elders and the (oh so pc) British police did not think such thuggish and unlawful behaviour worthy of prosecution. “Activists” who act like criminals don’t deserve the tag, no matter valid their concerns.

  21. Mirax — on 21st November, 2005 at 9:02 am  

    Re: Yusuf Smith

    I was appalled by something he wrote on the Sharpener group blog once, along the lines of justifying Qadiani persecution in Pakistan. Let me be clear: I have absolutely no respect for anyone who excuses murder on basis of religious affiliation and to my mind, Yusuf is as bigotted a bastard as any you find on HP or LGF. Worse, because the ‘heretics’ continue to be attacked and die, even as he pontificates from his cosy corner in London.

    Sunny, don’t be so quick to castigate Jeet just cause s/he caught a whiff of the vileness that YS emits.

  22. Vikrant — on 21st November, 2005 at 10:00 am  

    Sunny before the leftie in you gets better of you…. This guy messed up a few articles on wikipedia big time. Its high time you realise dialogue with leftists is impossible.

  23. Vladimir — on 21st November, 2005 at 10:15 am  

    I fail to understand your point blue mountain, how is communism the opium of the masses? please explain

  24. Mandip — on 21st November, 2005 at 12:04 pm  

    I think it is absolutely amazing and disgraceful that “sikhs” would think that is acceptable to consume alcohol or meat on gurdwara or gurdwara owned property. This is akin to someone eating pork in a mosque or beef in a mandir. It goes totally against sikh teachings and beliefs. And the people advocating doing this are supposed to be our community leaders (i know you hate that phrase sunny :) ). More like petty power hungry politians with no interest in real world sikh issues and teachings!

    I am glad that the Lemington sangat (congregation) made the committee see sense and a resolution was passed on Sunday declaring the Gurdwara a meat & alcohol free zone. Interestingly at the special General Meeting the Committee had planned to change the name of the room in the Gurdwara, to ‘community centre’, allowing the consumption of alcohol, meat and intoxicants. In a bizarre twist the plan fell on top of them as the Sangat didn’t let it pass. In fact the actual opposite passed.

    However, a totally legitimate campaign (in my view just like the Bezhti protests) has again been soured and tainted by the use of violence.

    I think the sikhs involved in these campaigns need to look back at history and see how our forefathers campaigned, without resorting to violence, for instance to free gurdware from the control of mahants. They will get a lot more respect and support (from sikhs and non-sikhs) if they follow these traditions. But well done for stopping this shameful missue of gurdwara premises and funds.

    Examples of non violent campaigns below (interesting aside, you may recall a recent BBC programme tracing the family history of Meera Syal which discovered that her grandfather was involved in the Jaito Morcha).
    http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/events/tarntaran.htm
    http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/events/nankana.htm
    http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/events/gurbagh.htm
    http://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/sikhhistory/MainEvents/Jaito.htm

  25. blue mountain — on 21st November, 2005 at 12:31 pm  

    I fail to understand your point blue mountain, how is communism the opium of the masses? please explain

    Ok communism is not the opium of the masses…it is actually the hukkah of the masses

  26. Jeet — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:11 pm  

    Mandip

    Great post.

    Sikhs need to be more careful that hot heads dont sully the righteousness of these issues – it is utterly self defeating. Unfortunately there is a hardcore of some who just let their tempers run away with them and they make things worse. Read this report about why:

  27. Jeet — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:15 pm  

    Mirax

    Thanks for the support.

    Yes, there is something very vile and sly about Mr Yusuf Smith. What a shame that his past articles come back to haunt when he comes to a website and starts commenting on Sikh issues – when he laid down his true attitude in black and white in an essay that stands there in its mouth-frothing ignorance.

    Good to know that it is out in the open and his bigotry is plain for all Sikhs to note the next time he passes comment on an issue concerning us – it is good that those with two faces are revealed for what they are.

    Sunny – Yusuf Smith knows exactly what he is saying and he means exactly what he says. It is in the open.

  28. Jeet — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:21 pm  

    Sunny

    There should be a moratorium on buying up halls and property adjacent to or connected with a Gurdwara.

    If people want to have parties and functions they can go to a private hall or hotel. It is not the job of Gurdwara’s to provide this. They should concentrate on the religious and charitable side of things, and not seek to turn it all into a money making machine.

    If need be the SGPC should issue an edict on this.

  29. blue mountain — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:26 pm  

    SGPC !!!!

    You know their record !!!!

  30. blue mountain — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:34 pm  

    Why do u need fatwa from SGPC ?

  31. Sunny — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:49 pm  

    Mirax: The greater pity was the sikh community elders and the (oh so pc) British police did not think such thuggish and unlawful behaviour worthy of prosecution. “Activists” who act like criminals don’t deserve the tag, no matter valid th

    That I agree with.

    Sunny, don’t be so quick to castigate Jeet just cause s/he caught a whiff of the vileness that YS emits.
    Without getting dragged into a discussion on YS’s article, I don’t think he was actually advocating attacks on them.
    The Sikhs don’t actually have a great record when it comes to dealing with offshoots such as Radhsoamis, Nirankaris etc. My point was merely that his short comment on Sikhism looks like a result of ignorance than hatred. Jeet was being a bit touchy when I prefer to give people benefit of the doubt.

    Mandip: (i know you hate that phrase sunny) Lol!

    However, a totally legitimate campaign (in my view just like the Bezhti protests) has again been soured and tainted by the use of violence.

    A legitimate campaign wouldn’t even consider violence on such issues. It’s a bit like saying Iraqi insurgents have a legitimate campaign but bad methods (though on a worse scale).

    A lot of these campaigns are organised on the basis that violence may be used to get their aims.

    Jeet: If people want to have parties and functions they can go to a private hall or hotel. It is not the job of Gurdwara’s to provide this. They should concentrate on the religious and charitable side of things, and not seek to turn it all into a money making machine.

    I agree, but then we know these people want to keep raising money so they can build even bigger Gurudwaras and provide constant boosts to their egos.

  32. Mandip — on 21st November, 2005 at 2:53 pm  

    Jeet – Just a quick clarification, the edict would have to come from the Akal Takht and not the SGPC. From what I understand the SGPC is a body that is responsible for the management of most Gurdware in India. The Akal Takht (which roughly translates as the Throne of the Lord) is the is the throne of Sikh religious authority and only it could make such a pronouncement. And the sooner it does so the better.

    http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gurud_02.htm

    Blue Mountain – I share your sentiments on the current SGPC.

  33. Mandip — on 21st November, 2005 at 3:06 pm  

    Sunny – That was my point entirely, that a legitimate campaign was made to look fanatical because a few people couldn’t control their tempers (or maybe egos or maybe it was pre-planned, your guess is as good as mine). Same happened with the Behzti protests, who remembers that there had been a week of peaceful protests before that unfortunate Satuarday evening? Everyone, including the media just focused on the violence.

    “I agree, but then we know these people want to keep raising money so they can build even bigger Gurudwaras and provide constant boosts to their egos. ” – Not to mention them being able to continue taking their commission.

  34. Mirax — on 21st November, 2005 at 3:37 pm  

    Sunny, you may want to give benefit of doubt to bigots, I don’t.
    I do not weasel over words either- advocate, justify, whatever. Hate is hate.Incitement to murder need not be in this you-shall-kill-soandso-form that you seem to require before you deign to condemn.

    For me this phrase does it: the Qadianis have got off lightly in Pakistan.

    “Read any account of the Qadianis’ behaviour in Pakistan, and you will discover that they are a vile, diabolical sect whose “civilised” front is just that – a front. Given the way the Sahaba reacted to the early false Prophets in the Arabian peninsula, one can only conclude that the Qadianis have got off lightly in Pakistan. They still exist, and the Pakistani government does not allow them to call themselves Muslims because they are not Muslims.

  35. Mirax — on 21st November, 2005 at 3:43 pm  

    Amnesty International will not quite agree that the qadianis are being let off lightly in Pakistan but what the hell are AI,the UN declaration of human rights,the US bill of rights etc but the imposition of western political dominance eh?

    “dominance of these countries after the Second World War that such ideas found their way into the various UN charters and conventions. ”

    For the whole article: http://alhafeez.org/rashid/yusuf_smith.html

  36. Vikrant — on 21st November, 2005 at 4:11 pm  

    err.. that should read dialogue with islamists up there

  37. Jai Singh — on 21st November, 2005 at 4:48 pm  

    =>”Why do u need fatwa from SGPC ? ”

    The concept of ‘fatwas’ does not exist within Sikhism.

  38. Al-Hack — on 22nd November, 2005 at 12:34 am  

    A fatwa is a religious edict. The SGPC do issue edicts, do they not?

  39. blue mountain — on 22nd November, 2005 at 5:27 am  

    The only person to won the Nobel prize for Pakistan was an Ahmediya( Professor Abdus Salam ).In November 1996 when Professor Abdus Salam’s body arrived in Pakistan for burial, the Pakistani state chose to ignore the event, fearful that any official recognition would invite the wrath of religious fundamentalists.

  40. Mandip — on 22nd November, 2005 at 9:42 am  

    Al-Hack – No the SGPC does not have the authority to issue religous edicts, only the Akal Tahkt can do that.

  41. Jai Singh — on 22nd November, 2005 at 11:07 am  

    Mandip is correct.

    Also, the term “edict” is different in Sikhism to what it is in Islam, certainly with regards to the more negative connotations of the term “fatwa”.

    The Vatican also issues edicts, but one does not refer to them as “fatwas” either.

  42. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2005 at 2:01 pm  

    Firstly, agree with Mandip’s comments; Sikhs in the early 20th Century demonstrated we could still get results without resorting to any sort of violence – the Gurduara Reform movement should be used as a Case Study by these people.

    Secondly, on the point of ‘edicts’ and such by the Akal Takht – there is no pre-20th Century precedent for any ‘edicts’ being passed by individuals within the Sikh community. The role of the Akal Takht is to facilitate the consensus-building process within the Sikh community via the protocol of Gurmatta, not for a one (or five) man band to conjure up their own ‘edicts’ – they have absolutely no authority !

    As a technical point, the Jathedar of Akal Takhat, popularly referred to as the High Priest, or Pope of the Sikh faith, who nowadays is the person issuing such ‘edicts’, is infact merely a paid employee of the SGPC and can be hired or fired at the whims of his/her political masters – i.e. the Akali Dal.

  43. Uncleji Stalin — on 23rd November, 2005 at 2:56 pm  

    Vladmir & Blue Mountain that quote in context.

    “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”

    Commuism is the drug of choice for intellectual spacecadets.

  44. Uncleji ranting — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:08 pm  

    1) I can’t think of a Gurdwara that is run by Khalistanis compared to the good old days of the 1980′s & ISYF running the show taking the sangat’s donations to pay for arms for millitants. I know that Park Avenue in Southall has a nice big mural of 1984, but thats more a sop to vocal sentiment.

    2) Violence is not the exclusive or even mostly the preserve of the young “radicals”. The Singh Sabha in Southall been the sign of fistcuffs between conservative factions and in another West London (non-jat) Gurdwara
    the younger modernising members of the commitee left after threats of volience against them and their families.

  45. blue mountain — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:12 pm  

    That’s what I meant Uncleji !!

  46. Uncleji ranting part 2 — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:14 pm  

    “The role of the Akal Takht is to facilitate the consensus-building process within the Sikh community ”

    Well said though I thought the only body empowered to make decisions is the collective Khalsa.

    Sunny has hit on the head its a struggle for power and resources that it just typically tribal Punjabi.
    I really don’t know how the genius of Sikhism ended with such a ill suited people…..

  47. Sunny — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:17 pm  

    I really don’t know how the genius of Sikhism ended with such a ill suited people…..

    Lmao! So true. After Guru Gobind Singh ji its just gone downhill really hasn’t it?

  48. blue mountain — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:17 pm  

    Gurdwaras are supposed to open to people of all religions. Now that Jatt and non – jatt thing is scary.

    In Sikkim they have built a new mosque and guess what .Fisticuffs and violence between the Deobandis and Barelvis over the control of the mosque !!!

  49. blue mountain — on 23rd November, 2005 at 3:20 pm  

    I admire the openness and tolerance of Sikh religion

  50. David — on 23rd November, 2005 at 5:52 pm  

    Interesting that the incident took place in Leamington Spa. Remember the violent disruption of a Sikh wedding earlier this year by a group from Leamington calling themselves the Respect to Guru Granth Sahibji Campaign? Led by a fellow called Jaswinder Singh Ubhi? They were an “any means necessary” kind of group.

    Obviously not wanting to point the finger at such an early stage, but I wonder if the police have been in touch with them yet?

  51. Mirax — on 23rd November, 2005 at 6:06 pm  

    David, my point in post #20 was about the tendency in the community not to involve the police in such matters. It is probably seen as family quarrel and there may exist a naive belief that pressing charges may escalate rather than calm the situation. The upshot of such thinking is that the violent perps get away with their thuggery.

  52. Buggsy — on 25th November, 2005 at 1:22 pm  

    People like Sunny should be leading the Sikh People. He know it all.

    Big up to Sunny!

  53. Sunny — on 25th November, 2005 at 2:47 pm  

    David – I’d say it is either them or an offshoot, or someone copying them, which is why this is why it may turn into a serious problem in the future. The Amardeep Bassey doc above mentions Ubhi I think.

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