Film on Islam’s attitude to homosexuality
The Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali is planning to make a film on Islam’s attitude to homosexuality, BBC reports. Considering ‘Submission I’ got Theo Van Gogh killed, people will be watching this one closely.
“I examine the position of homosexuals in Islam in the film Submission II,” she told the De Volkskrant newspaper. “In the movie, they are called Allah’s creatures,” she added. The MP is an outspoken critic of Islamic values and describes herself as a “lapsed” Muslim.
I wonder if Qaradawi will have a starring role.
Good for her.
Hope Ken Livingstone is supportive
There’s an interesting article from earlier this year which shows how many Muslim women’s rights campaigners have lambasted Hirshi Ali.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050627/scroggins
It needs a subscription to view the whole article, but you can find the whole thing of Google’s cache of the above link.
Some interesting quotes:
“Karima Belhaj is the director of the largest women’s shelter in Amsterdam. She’s also one of the organizers of the “Stop the Witchhunt!” campaign against what she sees as anti-Muslim hysteria. On the day we talked, she was despondent. Arsonists had set fire for the second time to an Islamic school in the town of Uden. A few days later a regional police unit warned that the rise of right-wing Dutch youth gangs potentially presents a more dangerous threat to the country than Islamist terrorism. “The rise of Islamism is not the problem,” Belhaj said. “The problem is that hatred against Arabs and Muslims is shown in this country without any shame.” With her message that Muslim women must give up their faith and their families if they want to be liberated, Hirsi Ali is actually driving women into the arms of the fundamentalists, said Belhaj: “She attacks their values, so they are wearing more and more veils. It frightens me. I’m losing my country. I’m losing my people.”
“If Belhaj was sad, another “Stop the Witchhunt!” organizer was angry. Like Belhaj, Miriyam Aouragh is a second-generation immigrant of Moroccan background. A self-described peace and women’s activist, Aouragh was the first in her family to attend university. She’s now studying for a PhD in anthropology. She scoffs at the idea that Hirsi Ali is a champion of oppressed Muslim women. “She’s nothing but an Uncle Tom,” Aouragh said. “She has never fought for the oppressed. In fact, she’s done the opposite. She uses these problems as a cover to attack Islam. She insults me and she makes my life as a feminist ten times harder because she forces me to be associated with anti-Muslim attacks.”
Interesting how many in the anti-Muslim brigade have jumped on the Hirshi Ali bandwagon, ignoring the criticism from some of these Dutch Muslim feminists who , rather than making self-publicising movies have actually been doing something to help oppressed women e.g. setting up womens shelters.
Point (possibly) taken.
One reason though why people will join a ‘bandwagon’ in support of Hirshi Ali is because of the threats against her.
I don’t know anything about ‘Stop the Witchhunt’ but would feel a lot better if it also contained something about ‘Stop the Death Threats’.
I am not sure how it is possible to reconcile being both a Muslim and a feminist. Where do these self-proclaimed feminists stand on arranged marriage; the hijab; the patriarchy of the Muslim family; homosexuality? Islam is based on the idea that husbands are head of the household and parents own their children. Hirsi Ali challenges such obscene ideas, and she is heroically courageous for doing so.
But then again, perhaps the supporters of Hirsh Ali should also be condemning the violence against Dutch Muslims (if you read the article, it mentions research that shows that although Van Goths murder got the headlines - the majority of religous violence in Holland directed towards the Muslim minority (e.g. Mosques burnt down, attacks in the street). If the Stop the Witchhunt people needs to have a Stop the Death Threats element, then maybe Hirshi Ali and her supporters need to start a Stop Violence against Muslims campaign.
“You started it” - “No, you started it”
Let’s not go down that road.
We should be able to believe in
(1) freedom of speech
(2) freedom from attack
for everyone
Raz,
I totally agree! This islamophobia is really pissing me off aswell!!!!
(You utter, utter prat).
jonz: no doubt you’re Dreaming of a White Phosphorus Christmas for Iraq.
Paul Brown: Why not? Its perfectly possible to reconcile being both. Except that of all the issues you mentioned, arrange marriage is not point of Islamic Faith but a cultural construct observed by cultures all over the world, irrespective of religion. The Hijab is not mandatory for Muslim women, and indeed, sanction is open to theological debate. Most Muslim cultures do without it. Homosexuality is not strictly a feminist issue. And finally, most Islamic cultures are actually matriarchial in practice, and especially in South and South East Asian countries.
OP: Why would the Quran have to be re-written to accomodate Muslim feminists? Did the Judaeo-Christic texts have to be re-written to accomodate Feminism in the West?
J0nz, my comment was not>/ai> said in irony. You suck.
Siddharth - Christianity in particular is not as disgustingly misogynist as Islam.
“Homosexuality not strictly a feminist issue.”
Obviously no Muslim lesbians of course…
OP: And the answer to my question?
Thanks!
In answer to the question you posed
Did the Judaeo-Christic texts have to be re-written to accomodate Feminism in the West?
The answer is no. Several hundred years ago we experienced something known in the West as the ‘Enlightenment’. This happened because they had some called a ‘brain’ which they ‘used’ and worked out that bizzare religous dogma was not the answer to humanitys future.
Chris: You suggesting that you have to be a Feminist to be a Lesbian and vicé versa? And yes, there are Muslim lesbians. What an ignorant remark.
J0nz: I’m not sure how you have phrased it was the net result of the Enlightenment, but I know what you’re struggling to say. But whats that got to do with Islamic praxis?
Sunny, is it just me or is your server timing out?
n outspoken critic of Islamic values
It annoys me that religions (and cultures), and the people that criticise them, both present their ‘values’ as an “all or nothing” choice. The Abrahamic Faiths’ view of homosexuality is outdated, hateful nonsense. But does that discredit the values of peace and respect that are also a part of these religions?
And by the way, when I see Shitney Spears getting spit-roasted in her preposterous music videos, I tend to think that a bit more respect for the female form would not go amiss. The hijab looks pretty dignified.
LOL Shitney. She’s a product of the Enlightenment, don’cha know.
I have seen Submission I and it is junk.
But with Van Gogh dead, not making
a sequel is not an option.
“Hirsi Ali is actually driving women into the arms of the fundamentalists, said Belhaj: “She attacks their values, so they are wearing more and more veils. It frightens me. I’m losing my country. I’m losing my people.”
What rubbish. Don’t like her? Don’t listen.
“She insults me and she makes my life as a feminist ten times harder because she forces me to be associated with anti-Muslim attacks.”
What a cheap smear. Ali, of all people, does *not* support violence. And I loathe this bigotry of soft expectations. Ooh, the poor Muslims, if they are criticised, they will get mad and nasty… Bullcrap.
If Muslims here in Holland want to be conservative, fine. Most of the rest of us want to be liberal and some of us, at times, want to be downright outrageous. Also fine if no one gets hurt.
As for the creeps vandalising Muslim schools, I hope the Dutch law comes down on every single one of them like a ton of Gouda.
Same goes for the would-be jihadis, and, yes, we do have a few. We could turn Holland into the NWFP and they’d probably still find a reason to hate us and murder us.
A plague on all violent houses.
The Dutch who burned Muslim schools
have been punished severely.
One non-Muslim had made a molotov
cocktail, drove to a muslim school, but
changed his mind and went home.
So actually he did not do anything.
Still he got full punishment.
Meanwhile a Muslim found with weapons
and a map of a nuclear power plant got
no punishment as he had bought the
wrong kind of fertelizer.
Politics, media and law are very left wing
(Muslim-hugging) in the Netherlands.
Ms Ali is just exercizing her freedom of expression in a democratic society. People who bleat about their lives being made more difficult because other people exercize freedom of speech should learn to use the conventions of a liberal democracy to argue their own political case and not try to silence the ‘inconvenient’ opinions of others.
Ms Ali also announced this week that she intends to start a prosecution against an imam in The Netherlands who said she she should be “blown away”. This is just one more example of the incitement to violence - which should be dealt with severely under the law - that Ms Ali is currently enduring.
Violence against all people - Muslims and non-Musims - is inexcusable.
Bijna,
“Meanwhile a Muslim found with weapons
and a map of a nuclear power plant got
no punishment as he had bought the
wrong kind of fertelizer.”
LOL. But he managed to create a beautiful garden
(I know it’s not funny really - that said, the Dutch have a VERY dark sense of humour).
I find it very irritating when people try and compare Islamic to Western values by using an extreme example of something they don’t like about Western culture (i.e., Britney Spears getting spit-roasted). If it’s a choice between that and hanging gays or stoning adulteresses or executing rape victims, I’ll go for Britney every time (fnarr).
It is not true that most Muslim cultures are matriarchal. Patriarchy and misoginy are integral parts of the Islamic faith. Look at the problems we have in Britain with our Msulim community that are deperately crying out to be tackled head-on: forced marriage; female genital mutilation; honour punsihments and honour killings. The three main reasons that young women have Muslim families have been victims of honour killings are wearing western clothes; going to college; and talking to a boy in the street. This was discovered by recent government research on the subject. Whenever there is a Muslim presence at public meetings on any subject, it is usually men only in attendance. Walk down the streets of a Muslim community - men are participating in public life; where are the women? There is a fatwa against the young Muslim tennis professional (whose name escapes me) because she wears unIslamic clothing while playing her sport!!!!!!!!
Even Salma Yaqoob, who represents the liberal extreme of Islam, advocated complete separation between sexes, including separtate socialising, dancing, and swimming, when I saw her debate Susie Orbach at the ICA.
And finally, there is no point in defending Islam by criticising Christianity. Who on earth is defending Christianity? The aim of any enlightened, thinking person is for secularism.
“Forced marriage; female genital mutilation; honour punsihments and honour killings”
All of which are happening in the non-Muslim community as well.
BTW, British police say there are 12 honour killings a year in the UK - including Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs. You would think Asian women are being slaughtered in their droves the way some people harp on about honour killings. Of course, no White English girl is ever murdered by a member of her family, eh?
” Walk down the streets of a Muslim community - men are participating in public life; where are the women?”
You’ve obviously never been anywhere near a Muslim community. Try walking down Wilmslow road in Manchester and see all of the pretty Pakistani girls (many of whom do NOT wear a hijab) walking along happily, mingling with men and NOT being attacked or molested by ‘honour killers’ as some of the anti-islamic fantasists on this board imagine.
Mokum,
“I hope the Dutch law comes down on every single one of them like a ton of Gouda.”
LOL. What is it with you and food - particularly slagroom and kaas??
Een fijn weekend!
extreme example of something they don’t like about Western culture
When did Britney Spears become extremist videos? How bizarre.
female genital mutilation;
Any evidence that this is a problem in the UK? AFAIK, that so-called report in one of the newspapers was largely hype.
whose name escapes me
Sania Mirza. That fatwa was then recinded by a more well known Muslim authority.
Even Salma Yaqoob, who represents the liberal extreme of Islam
Err, no she doesn’t. Who said she does? If you want more liberal Muslims, come to London town on a Friday night.
Hirsi Ali should have the right to make any film she wants to, that is of course her right. What seems to me though is that ordinary Muslims are being blamed for the extremist threats of more violent groups, which I find unacceptable.
Are white people asked to justify themselves everytime the BNP does something? Why are all Muslims then blamed because that Moroccon idiot killed Van Gogh (and quite rightly got sentenced).
Also, someone made a point about Christinity. I would like to point out that many feminists still see some interpretations of Christianity as very sexist and regularly accuse The Pope of crimes against women. So “enlightenment” has come by abandoning religion in many cases.
I have frequently been in Muslim communities in Tower Hamlets, Haringey, and Islington. And are these pretty Pakistani girls free to have sex with whomever they choose; wear any clothes they like; live anywhere they want in any way they want; be openly homosexual; go to mixed sex swimming pools, nighclubs, holidays, bars? Can they abandon their religion without being ostracised by their community? Are they free to go on the pill? Have an abortion? Are they free to express themselves? Can they go and live independently, maybe sharing a flat with a guy or in a mixed sex flat? If they are, that is one extraordinary Pakistani community, I would love to see it.
Murder is illegal.
In Islam honour killings appear to be merely frowned upon.
Well, honour killings happen in Hindu and Sikh cultures too (see previous post about ‘idiot sets himself on fire’). It also happens in Latin American communities and France (crime of passion anyone). Its not a religious thing, its a cultural issue.
But its its frowned upon. What would you like us to do? Kill someone who killed others in an HK?
Sunny, FGM is a serious problem in the borough of Brent. Look at their website if you don’t beleive me.
Sunny,
“Hirsi Ali should have the right to make any film she wants to, that is of course her right”
Agreed.
” What seems to me though is that ordinary Muslims are being blamed for the extremist threats of more violent groups, which I find unacceptable.”
Not by Ayaan Hirsi Ali - if that’s what you’re implying. What Hirsi Ali rails against is politically and religiously-sanctioned oppression of certain minority groups under Islam in Islamic states.
She was also appalled several years ago when working for the Dutch Labour Party when she was asked to undertake a report on the under-achievement of Muslim girls and women in Dutch society. She did her research and was shocked to find that - contrary to her (and her party’s) expectations - it was not Dutch racism that was generally holding back many of the under-achievers but religious and cultural attitudes in some Muslim communities themselves.
The Labour Party then tried to shelve her controversial report.
She eventually wrote the scipt for ‘Submission’ though perhaps she should not have collaborated with Theo van Gogh, the provocative enfant terrible of the Dutch media.
Hirsi Ali is herself a shining example of how someone can rise against all the odds in THe Netherlands, having arrived as a peniless refugee from Somalia in her early 20s and working her way through university.
Unfortunately, she does not have the right left-wing credentials of blaming capitalism/racism etc etc for some Muslim women’s under-achievement - this is probably why her ’sisters’ do not support her.
“Christianity in particular is not as disgustingly misogynist as Islam”
Eh? Not now (mostly), but how long has the CofE had female clergy for? Has the Catholic Church had women clergy yet?
How about the millennium and a half (at least) in which women throughout the Christian world were kept in a subordinate position, largely based on the Bible’s descriptions of the first woman being responsible for man’s fall (underlined innumerable times throughout with untrustworthy women - Delilah etc.)? How about that because of this male-dominated, Biblically-supported western European society women were not even granted the vote in Britain - dominated by what is supposedly a “reformed” version of Christianity - until less than 90 years ago?
(And as an aside, why did European culture shift from the Greek/Roman acceptance of homosexuality towards a revulsion of it during the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire? Simple answer - the rise of the Church.)
Most Christian countries have now moved on from the repression of women, granted, and have mostly made at least some progress towards gay rights - but have they moved on BECAUSE they are Christian? Doubtful - because otherwise surely they would have done it centuries ago?
in the borough of Brent
It is? Well, errr, its not even a Muslim dominated area. The biggest minority there are Hindus!
DavidBruno.
Not by Ayaan Hirsi Ali - if that’s what you’re implying.
No, but def by some people who want to grind their own anti-Muslim agenda.
I’m not supporting Van Gogh’s murder or the attacks against Ali at all. Hell, I’ve been harssed and threatened by fundies (though Hindu ones and the BNP), and would not wish that on others.
As for cultural attitudes - I agree, and I’ve said the same applies in the UK too. I’m gonna be writing something on this over the weekend hopefully.
the provocative enfant terrible of the Dutch media.
Ain’t that the truth. Its annoying how some have held up an anti-semite as the shining example of free speech.
In the scheme of things, a man’s crimes, be they be anti-semitism or having a child porn collection, will be forgiven if he happens to get killed by some crazed lunatic. Especially if he lunatic is a Muslim.
I find it very irritating when people try and compare Islamic to Western values by using an extreme example of something they don’t like about Western culture. If it’s a choice between that and hanging gays or stoning adulteresses or executing rape victims, I’ll go for Britney every time.
The problem, Tom, is that people seem to be declaring what other people’s values are, and then arguing against them. Just as I use Shitney Spears an example of something that brings shame upon my culture, the homophobia and mysoginy that we are attributing to Islam is rejected by the moderate Muslims we meet here at Pickled Politics. I was merely making a distinction between what they declare their values to be, and what other people tell them their values are.
I’ve been harssed and threatened by fundies (though Hindu ones and the BNP), and would not wish that on others.
Sunny meboy pray tell me what are fundamentals of Hinduism?
Sunny Brent is indeed a Hindu dominated area but you give the impression that Hindus practise FGM which is untrue. There has been no instance of FGM in Indian or even Asians. Its prevalent mostly in North African Islamic cultures. BTW more I read into your comments, more convinced i become of your apparent Leftist leanings. Sunny your constant balacing of criticism of Islam by pointing out often-imagined similarities with your own religion/culture is indeed a leftists trait.. Indian leftist trait. For someone who said that India voted for palestinians at UN under Arab pressure, what can you expect, have balls to call it what it was.. “minority appeasement”. UPA isnt secular no Indian party is. You can be Hindu, you can be right wing still you CAN be secular.
Robert
Quite agree. If the voices of the Muslims we meet on PP (with one notable exception) were the voices people heard when extremists grab the attention, there would be far less suspicion and Islamophobia (in the sense of fear of Islam, rather than a determined bigotry against it).
Unfortunately, what people hear is silence, equivocation and grievance. This is largely, but not entirely, due to how the media and the government have chosen to define the muslim ‘community’.
As an atheist and a secularist I regard all religions negatively, with Christianity ( the one I know best) and Islam ( currently the most assertive) heading the list. Does that make me an Islamophobe?
Yes, there are those with a racist agenda who hitch a ride on the legitimate secularist criticisms of Islam. Can’t do much about that, they’re like fleas on a dog. Fortunately, thanks to good management, they don’t have a significant presence on this site.
This is shaping up to be an excellent post. Just hope it stays on topic and we can avoid the tu quoque tendency.
Raz says:”“Forced marriage; female genital mutilation; honour punsihments and honour killings”
All of which are happening in the non-Muslim community as well.
BTW, British police say there are 12 honour killings a year in the UK - including Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs. You would think Asian women are being slaughtered in their droves the way some people harp on about honour killings. Of course, no White English girl is ever murdered by a member of her family, eh?”
Can you point out any link showing honour killings by a Hindu or a Sikh family (not the ancient case involving canadian sikhs)? Yea Indian culture is indeed male dominated but i believe killing is something beyond us.
There was one recent UK-based incidence of a Sikh honour-killing (or an attempted one, I can’t remember), but although most of the aforementioned malicious actions occur across all of the South Asian communities, it is a major exaggeration for anyone to imply that these things occur EQUALLY across all these groups — the vast majority unfortunately occur within the Muslim population.
Fairness is one thing, and something I completely support; but it doesn’t mean one should (deliberately or unintentionally) distort or deny the hard facts as they stand.
I don’t believe in making sweeping generalisations or especially in demonising entire communities; however, we mustn’t let our goodwill and wish to avoid unnecessary slander of individuals or groups cause us to be either in denial of certain unpalatable facts, especially if it prevents us from addressing the issues involved in such negative behaviour and mindsets.
Certainly Vikrant, the most recent case is this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4099053.stm
” Yea Indian culture is indeed male dominated but i believe killing is something beyond us”
You’re deluding yourself:
http://womensissues.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fsouthasia.oneworld.net%2Farticle%2Fview%2F76542%2F1%2F
There are also thousands of similar style killings e.g. dowry murders. Violence against women is a serious defect in South Asian culture - Pakistani or Indian - Muslim or Hindu - we must confront it.
BTW, the British police are now reopening hundreds of old cases which may have been honour killings, not just Indian/Pakistani/Bengali but Middle Eastern and European cases. Time to put an end to his mysoginistic practice.
“The vast majority unfortunately occur within the Muslim population”
It’s estimated that there are only 12 honour killings a year in the UK. The Muslim population is much bigger than the Hindu or Sikh population - I’d expect most of those killings to be from Muslims (note that Muslim does not equal Asian - there have been high profile Turkish/Kurdish honour killings recently).
Odd how so far no-one has addressed the actual topic; Islam’s attitude to homosexuality.
The Don - you’re right. Although it’s not much of a discussion. Islam’s attitude towards gay people is, like all religions I can think of, bakwaas. (daft)
more convinced i become of your apparent Leftist leanings
Lol, you only figured that out now? Proud to be liberal and lefty thanks, and that is stated right at the top of this blog. We don’t wear a conservative religious badge.
By the way, in answer to your point. I never insinuated that Hindus were responsible for FGM, thats your touchiness getting the better of you. I know its an African issue, which is why I was surprised when Brent was mentioned.
As for honour killings not taking place in Hindu/Sikh cultures. Well funny you should mention that - a bride is burnt every day in Delhi because of her dowry. Are you classifying that as something else are you? Playing this blame game is futile my friend - Asian societies have a lot to answer for when it comes to lack of gender equality and opression of women.
I hear alot about what Islam is without any evidence from the Quran or the Sunnah to support what is being said. I didnt know the Sharia was nothing more than what Muslims do be it cultural or religious, as opposed to what Muslims were obligated to follow and live by.
When a patriarchal family, arranged marriages, and the hijab are viewed as obsence by someone who is pro-abortion than that is a debate that isnt worth having.
I would like to know how many women were killed during the time of Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) due to honor? Since it is his example that set precedence in Islamic law, it should be discussed.
The Don,
The act of homosexuality, is punishable with death according to the Sharia. I dont have details but it is pretty unanimous amongst the scholars.
Paul Brown,
“There is a fatwa against the young Muslim tennis professional (whose name escapes me) because she wears unIslamic clothing while playing her sport!!!!!!!!”
What is the fatwa that is isnt permissible for Muslim women to wear tennis clothing in front of non-mahram males? What is so controversial about that? Why would any Muslim women think that is was permissible to wear those kinds of clothes in front of everyone?
Bijna,
“Politics, media and law are very left wing
(Muslim-hugging) in the Netherlands. ”
So would right wing politics, media and law be fair or Muslim-choke holding?
Why would any Muslim women think that is was permissible to wear those kinds of clothes in front of everyone?
Bikhair - because it is their choice.
[...] Now, according to the BBC (via), the script has been completed. “I examine the position of homosexuals in Islam in the film Submission II,” she told the De Volkskrant newspaper. [...]
Since it is his example that set precedence in Islamic law, it should be discussed.
Why on earth should what some man who came down from a hill after sufffering from hallucinations said or did have any bearing on how women should conduct themselves now?
And before I am accused of Islamophobia, I would make exactly the same point to Christians opposed to homosexuality. Grow up and move on.
There’s a video of Britney getting spit-roasted?!
Could somebody post a link?
If the dutch were being genuine about it all, rather than hating, then maybe they would get progress on these issues.
Islam upholds family values and historically was the first religion to grant women rights and respect. Stuff like Female Genital Mutilation is no part of Islam.
The Dutch need to ask why their government has failed to discourage cultural inventions that are holding back muslim women.
Instead an MP is making a sequel to a film that mocked Islam and promoted false conceptions….what a great way to improve community relations: have the host community who are already quite prejudice and ignorant upon the teachings of Islam to further hate it, whilst alienate the muslim population.
Hirshi Ali needs to wake up and stop smoking so much dope. Im sure she is pissed off for her f***y being chopped out when she was a little girl but i reckon someone should do her a favour and tell her it wasnt the Koran, or God who did that to her, but it was some clown who just lied and made out it was a religious obligation.
-in other words she needs to address the actual problems.
Oh, so Islam is cool on homosexuality then?
The way to improve “community relations” is to stand up for free speech and stand against violence and hatred, which is exactly what the vast majority of Dutch people do. If some Muslims don’t like free speech, well, tough.
Oh, so Islam is cool on homosexuality then?
Very. For the past 150 years queer folk, from Byron to Joe Orton and so on, have travelled to North African Muslim countries to get their rocks off on a bit of, what is nowadays called, sex tourism. Why? Because they know that they would not be able to enjoy the same freedoms in the Europe. Unless they liked to get their sex in men’s urinals, the beaches of Tunisia were always more attractive.
“stand against violence and hatred, which is exactly what the vast majority of Dutch people do”
yeah, just like at Srebrenica. Funny how the death of a single Dutch filmaker produced such outrage, and yet 7000 muslims being slaughtered with Dutch complicty still hasn’t
seen anyone held to account for their crimes more than 10 years on.
Are you kidding?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm
Come of it Raz, the idea that Srebrenica has been airbrushed from history like the Amrenian genocide is risible. The ten year anniversary was all over the media.
As for holding people to account for the crimes, admittedly you could argue that the UN haven’t done a very good job with Milosevic, or chasing up smoe of the others involved, so you’ll be glad to see that other mass murderer and abuser of Muslims, Saddam Hussain, is being tried more effectively in Iraq.
Bikhair,
Thanks. I did know that the Koran calls for the death penalty for homosexuals, but I was more interested in how a modern, educated muslim reconciles that with the fact that they may well have gay friends and colleagues. for example, if a muslim guy intervenes to stop a gay being kicked in by queer-bashers, has he acted wrongly?
So someone who is ‘pro-abortion’ is unworthy of debate? Actually, I seriously doubt if anyone is ‘pro-abortion’ in the sense that they think abortion is a good thing in itself. Some people think abortion is best tackled by reducing demand (better sex education, more widespread use of contraceptives, etc.) rather than cutting of the supply, with the inevitable and well documented consequences.
The fact is that people in ‘the west’ enjoy a large degree of sexual freedom, whether you like it or not. It comes with a downside, naturally, but if you are stuck in a mind set that believes - really believes - that millions of your fellow citizens are deserving of death for their choice of lifestyle then you are going to meet a lot of suspicion and hostility.
Tanvir;
The film has not been made yet, but do you believe it will misrepresent the subject? Hostility to religious strictures that advocate violence and death for personal sexual choices is not necessarily based on ignorance and prejudice. If a gay dutchman were fully and accurately informed on Islam’s attitude to homosexuality, would that make him feel more positively towards it?
For the record, Britney Spears forms no part of my ‘culture’.
Saddam Hussain, is being tried more effectively in Iraq
ha ha. Thats a good one, Eric.
Raz speaking of Srebrenica, havent your own “freedom fighters” exterminated 20000 Hindus and ethnically cleansed Kashmir valley of 1 million Kashmiri Hindus?
> So would right wing politics, media and law
> be fair or Muslim-choke holding?
Lets take a look at the Dutch crime statistics:
- 2% of the Dutch are of Maroccan descend
- 33% of the juvenile delinquents are of Maroccan descend
To say that crime is high among Dutch muslims
is an understatement. A choke is indeed needed.
Instead of dealing with the crime, the response of the media is not mentioning ethnicity of simply not reporting events at all and the response of the government has been advertisement campaings to improve the Muslim image.
Both hopeless paths as the crime effects all outside the ivory towers.
The only politician willing to deal with this, Pim Fortuyn,
was killed just before he would be elected prime minster.
Vikrant, glad that you’ve finally woken up to the atrocities the Indian army has been committing against its own people in Kashmir
Dutch cowardice and complicity with facists can never be in doubt - we saw it in WW2 and we saw it in Srebrenica.
Eric, I’m talking about Dutch people not Slobodan. As far as Saddy boy goes, I’m glad that the visionary abilites of Ayatollah Khomeni have been vindicated. He was able to understand in 1981 what America and Britain could not grasp until 2003 - Saddam must die
Shame nobody listened to him - who knows how many hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved.
The Srebrenica massacre would not have happend
if Mohammed had not decided to attack Byzantium.
Raz… i think u misunderstood me./ I was refering to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus by jehadis in Kashmir. Funny how every Muslim from Mecca to Malaysia thinks of Kashmir as “his” land but kaffir who’ve been there since 1000 BC and who share common ethnicity with Kashmiri Muslims have no right to live there.
As for Bosniaks, they are no saints. Didnt the participate in Jewish Holocaust with the Nazis. They pepretrated atrocities of equal magnitude. Serbs hav been the ultimate loosers of Yugoslav war loosing substantial part of their terrirtory.
BTW its shocking raz to see that self-proclaimed moderate Muslim like you supports Ayatollah Khomeni.
The Srebrenica massacre would not have happend
if Mohammed had not decided to attack Byzantium.
Still making excuses eh Bijna?
Sunny,
“Bikhair - because it is their choice.”
I am not talking about choice. This topic is about Islams attitudes on homosexuality. What are talking about here is the deen of Islam which makes it very clear how a woman should adorn herself in front of certain people. She can chose to wear or not to wear but the Sharia will not compromise.
Bijna,
“To say that crime is high among Dutch muslims
is an understatement. A choke is indeed needed.”
That will not work. The problem with these Muslims in Dutchland is that they dont have enough religion in thier life, and they have rejected the Sunnah as a straight way.
Vikrant, it’s funny you’ve spent the last few weeks begging moderators to ban me and complaining about ‘trolling’, and now - despite my pledge to ease up - you still want to carry on the flaming. How did this thread suddenly go from Holland to Kashmir - oh it was you
Let me remind you of what you posted about me before:
“I’ve no interest in having flame wars”
“Scroll by the troll” - funny, you keep replying to my posts!
I told you you would miss me if I wasn’t here
If you want to carry on the like this fine - but don’t go crying to Sunny for ‘moderation’ this time.
She can chose to wear or not to wear but the Sharia will not compromise.
No one is asking Sharia to compromise, but sharia, like any religious text, is all about interpretation.
Regardless of that point, what you’re doing is condemning someone to death for their own choice which has not actually harmed anyone. That’s the sort of obtuse thinking that makes most Middle Eastern countries hell-holes to live in.
The Don,
“Thanks.”
De nada.
“I did know that the Koran calls for the death penalty for homosexuals…”
I am not sure if the Quran deals with it specifically but yes that is the Sharia.
“but I was more interested in how a modern, educated muslim reconciles that with the fact that they may well have gay friends and colleagues.”
Being gay isnt punishable but the act of homosexuality is. Having sex with a man when you are a man, or a woman if you are a woman is punishable.
“…for example, if a muslim guy intervenes to stop a gay being kicked in by queer-bashers, has he acted wrongly?”
If a Muslim sees an evil then he should stop it. Someone getting beat up on the street is an evil. People are punished for thier crimes by the leader of the Muslims. There is no mob justice in Islam.
“So someone who is ‘pro-abortion’ is unworthy of debate?”
My point was that someone who thinks the hijab, patriarchy, and arranged marriages are obscene but vacuuming a fetus from the belly of a woman isnt, is unworthy of a debate.
ok i got a bit carried away..sorry for that… btw raz are u based in britain or in pakistan?
btw raz lemme point out i havent made any unsubstantiated allegations against ur country unlike u.
“btw raz lemme point out i havent made any unsubstantiated allegations against ur country unlike u”
A matter of opinion. Just about every fact and statistic concerning India and Pakistan is disputed by someone.
Bikhair,
May I ask a personal question? I know it has been raised before ( I think by Mokum) but are you a convert? Feel free to disregard the question if you find it inappropriate.
The Don,
“I know it has been raised before ( I think by Mokum) but are you a convert? Feel free to disregard the question if you find it inappropriate.”
Ask Mokum if Umar ibn Al-Khattab (radiyallahu anhu) was a convert. Then make the same conclusions about his conversion as you would about mine.
ps. I am not comparing myself to this sahabah. please dont make that mistake.
Bikhair,
You redefine ‘annoying’.
“I am not sure how it is possible to reconcile being both a Muslim and a feminist. Where do these self-proclaimed feminists stand on arranged marriage; the hijab; the patriarchy of the Muslim family; homosexuality? Islam is based on the idea that husbands are head of the household and parents own their children. Hirsi Ali challenges such obscene ideas, and she is heroically courageous for doing so.”
Perhaps you should clarify this by explaining what you understand by arranged marriages, hijab and the patriarchy of the Muslim family? There is nothing in any of these that is impossible for a feminist to reconcile with.
but vacuuming a fetus from the belly of a woman isnt,
Well, a pro-abortion stance would be that while abortion is not the preferable option, it is the woman’s choice if she wants the egg to be fertilised into a human being or not. Why should others be allowed to make a decision that essentially affects her more than anyone else?
Sunny,
Put a sock in it Sunny. Remember its a baby not a choice.
Regardless of that point, what you’re doing is condemning someone to death for their own choice which has not actually harmed anyone. That’s the sort of obtuse thinking that makes most Middle Eastern countries hell-holes to live in.
why is it always hell holes….
anyway i like middle eastern countries i wouldnt mind living there. granted i have to change a few of my ways but those changes are good changes…
anyway about this homosexuality yeah islam is pretty strick on homosexuals
BUT did you lot know that clean shave was a sign of homosexuality in arabia 1400 years ago
i dunno what thats got to do wiht anything but i thought i would just waste everyones time with my useless knowledge…..
Carry on
ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY
Before the emergence of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula, all kinds of sexuality was being experienced. Although we don’t have many documents related to the age, it is understood from the references in the Kur’an that sexuality was not a taboo. Actually Islam didn’t mention any strict sexual rules either. If we just take Kur’an as the reference, it may even be called a sex positive religion.The only reference to homosexuality is in the sections about Sodom and Gomorrah. But even in those sections homosexuality is not very clearly condemned. People are punished because of having done everything excessively. They don’t only sleep with men, they sleep with women too, they drink too much, they got involved in pleasure too much. “Much” is the keyword here.
And the punishment for almost all crimes are mentioned in the Kur’an but there’s no specific punishment for homosexuality. But these sections in Kur’an have always been the defending point of homophobic Islamic people.What brings condemnation to homosexuals is not the Kur’an but the Islamic societies. Cultures also shape the religion as well as the society itself.
During the first years of Islam, homosexuality was never mentioned as a crime. There are even rumors that Ali, one of the members of Mohammed’s family had an affair with Mohammed. And in the famous 1001 Arabian Nights, there are some stories which are openly about homosexual relationships. But this did not mean that there was a conscious homosexual community. If those people knew the word “homosexual” they wouldn’t call themselves so. It was just sleeping with men as well as with women.
In Islamic cultures homosexual relationships were not very open. But they were not in complete secrecy either. Everything was all right as long as it was done behind closed gates and was not talked about. But with modernization, this changed in the Islamic societies. AS it is easy to comment Kur’an in the negative way, homosexuality started to be accepted as a crime and it is punished.
Homosexuality is a legal crime and forbidden in most of Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.Whatever is forbidden is more attractive and homosexuality is not a habit that can be banned. So in all of these countries people are engaged in homosexual activity. As there are punishments for the act, everything is done in secret. Turkey is one of these countries where there is no problem when everything is done secretly.
OTTOMAN CULTURE
Ottomans ruled between 1299 and 1923 till the foundation of Turkish Republic. They had been Moslems long before and they didn’t have much from their pre-Islamic period. Things were organized according to Islamic system, from state system to social services. So the rules about sex were from Islam too. Men could marry four women and even the way he should treat them were mentioned in the Kur’an. But as there are only vague references to homosexuality in Kur’an, it has never been an issue.Sleeping with men who are usually referred as “boys” was very common.It was not something looked upon.
The reputation of hamams (baths) in Turkey comes from this age. The “tellaks” (young boys who helped men to have a bath) did not only work for washing the men. They also served as male prostitutes. There is a book in the Ottoman archives called “Dellakname-i Dilkusa” (The Record of Tellaks). It tells about the most famous “tellaks” of Istanbul. The way they serve their customers, their price, how many times they can make you reach orgasm, the rate of their beauty and many more details are mentioned in this book.
Literature is one of the areas where there is eternal freedom of homosexuality. ottoman Literature is called “Divan Literature”. In Divan Literature there are many poems written by male poets about their male lovers. These poems were about how beautiful these boy lovers were. None of these the poet talks about his boy lover and he complains that his beard is starting to grow and because of this his beauty is going away. Boys were maybe kind of substitutes for women who had smooth skin with no hairs. Those poems are in a very old fashioned, hard to understand Turkish which is called Ottoman and are in literature books for high school students.There was no pressure from the authorities on the poets for writing such poems about boys. Actually sex with boys were not legally forbidden and even the sultans were engaged in sex with male boys.
Some of the sultans had famous affairs with boys. There was even a palace for boys in Bursa. In this palace sultan kept many young boys who served the men in the army. In the Ottoman Times the army was at war away from home for months and sometimes years. It was not something logical to take women with them.SO they took those boys from the palace. They could fight soldiers during day time and at night they visited the soldiers` tents for their special service.This tradition just like in other Islamic cultures was not conscious homosexuality. These men were engaged in sex with women too and sex with boys were just something pleasant for them and they thought they really needed women. Because one of the main orders of Islam is to breed.That’s why they needed women.
This tolerance for homosexuality disappeared in the early 19th century with the adoption of western culture. The sultans went on some renovations and the source was France. With the changes in the governmental and social system, the ideas were adopted too. Because of Christianity, male to male sex was strongly refused in the European culture. This effected ottoman society too and those kind of relationships were started to be looked upon.But of course a tradition that had been going on for such a long time didn’t disappear. There is still a hamam culture which is still going on but not as common as it used to be. And extreme nationalists who take great pride in ottoman culture still deny this side of Ottomans
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic countries. There are scriptural references to pre-pubescent boys in Paradise.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in ‘Perfumed Garden’ by Abu Nuwas:
O the joy of sodomy!
So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
Turn not away from it–
therein is wondrous pleasure.
Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
twisting on his temple
and ride as he stands like some gazelle
standing to her mate.
A lad whom all can see girt with sword
and belt not like your whore who has
to go veiled.
Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
very best to mount them, for women are
the mounts of the devils
So, I really don’t understand what all the fuss is about a practise that many Muslim countires have been practising for centuries in private, but abhorr in public.LoL
arranged marriages, hijab and the patriarchy of the Muslim family? There is nothing in any of these that is impossible for a feminist to reconcile with
What a joke. Patriarchy in the Muslim family means subordination of the woman in that familiy. Hijab is a symbol of this. Arranged marriage (often, in practice, forced), perpetuates it.
No feminist can reconcile herself with anything less than true equality for men and women. These so-called Muslim ‘feminists’ who witter on about these things being ‘liberating’ are just self-deluded, dangerous idiots.
Tanvir,
“in other words she needs to address the actual problems.”
No. In a democracy, she is free to address the problem as she defines it. Others may argue with her and advance their own arguments based on their own definitions and interpretations. But no one may prevent her. That is the nature of democracy.
It does the Muslim community a grave disservice when some of its community leaders indicate they are more interested in suppressing the expression of ideas rather than entering into the debate of ideas.
Why should they - or any followers of other religions - believe that they are above the hard-won conventions of democracy including free speech, equality before the law and the vote?
Ms Hirsi Ali regards the problems as follows:
the unequal status of women and homosexuals (and other minority groups) in Islamic states where no distinction is permitted between religion and law, and where human rights suffer as a result.
This is exactly what Submission 1 and Submission 2 deal with.
She - in line with other genuine feminists like Irshad Manji (Canada) - regard these aspects of Islam as being highly problematic - both in Islamic states themselves and also when some of these religious/political views are advocated by Muslims living in the West and which result in exactly what we are debating here: the attempt to silence people who raise issues that are uncomfortable for some Muslims to face and which result in attempts at intimidating people like Manji and Ali into silence. This type of behaviour is incompatible with the norms of a democratic society, whoever is indulging in it.
It is NOT the role of the State in a democracy to attempt to limit the freedom of expression that Ms Hirsi Ali will use - or that one of her Muslim opponents in The Netherlands may wish to use in the form of counter-arguments.
It IS the role of the State to ensure - through good policing - that citizens in a democracy are able to exercise their birthright: freedom of expression - without being killed (NOTE: Ms Hirsi Ali is under police protection 24/7 due to death threats by Islamists - and her late collaborator on Submission 1, Theo van Gogh, was murdered last year by an Islamist).
To state that the ‘Dutch are racist’ is as stupid a generalisation - and unhelpful - as stating ‘Muslims hate homosexuals’ .
Muslims in The Netherlands are equal before the law as citizens of The Netherlands - as also are followers of other religions and women and homosexuals. That means that they too can use freedom of expression to convey their views even if these views are critical of women or homosexuals. Certain imamns in The Netherlands have refered to homosexuals and Jews as ‘dirty pigs’ and have not, to my knowledge, been subjected to death threats. Please note that Ms Ali does not sink to refering to Muslims in such terms. Ask yourself who is intimidating whom and whether such intimidation is consistent with the norms of democracy.
Another despicable display of cowardice from the Dutch:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1880012,00.html
We’ve seen them collabarate with Nazis during the holocaust, we’ve seen their soldiers shirk their responsibilites at Srebrenica and now we see the ‘mighty’ Dutch army running scared in Afganistan. What a cowardly nation.
Raz,
*some* Dutch may fit your description just as *some* Muslims/Jews/Chrisitians/Atheists might be murderous. By turning *some* into a generalisation about *all*, you are using exactly the same tactics as those who claim that *all* rather than *some* Muslims are murderous fanatics.
Don’t you think a change in your logic might be advisable before someone hoists you with your own petard?
and Pakistan is bravest country in the world.
Why the fuck would they die fighting for someone elses cause ?
India and China never sent soldiers to either Iraq or Afganistan. I guess both are coward nations.
The same minuscule Dutch took on defeated mighty Spaniards(hitherto undefeated) couple of centuries earlier
Hey raz,
Before you go on accusing dutch of collaborating with Nazi (which is highly unlikely given the historic enemity between jerries and dutch) werent those your Yugoslav Muslim Nazi collaborators in the war? I’ve read that they helped Nazis round up few thousand Jews and Gypsies.
What this raises for me is the question of whether beliefs that are religious or religion based should have a higher status and be given greater deference than others. The two women quoted clearly do think this, the implication is that it is somehow wrong to criticise or attack religious beliefs. Why though should this be the case? Nobody would expect that political beliefs (for example) should be treated with that kind of deference. For that position to be correct you would have to show that religious beliefs are different in their nature from other kinds of belief and that the nature of that difference is such that they should be treated in a way that other beliefs are not. As a secularist myself I don’t see that at all and I find it very annoying when believers claim this kind of protection.
Muslim feminist? Isn’t that an oxymoron?! Bit like Islamic Human rights….
And I’m suprised at the Dutch. And I thought they was trying to portray the image that their not a soft touch?
140,000 Jews lived in the Netherlands before WWII. 100,000 were murdered. Jew or Muslim, Auschwitz or Srebrenica , Dutch collaboration with evil never ceases to appall.
Dude dutch were there on peacekeeping mission. If they were outnumbered by Serbs u cant blame them for not wanting to die in somebody else’s war. BTW Auschwitz is in Austria. And 5 million Jews from all countries under Nazi sway died. Its unfair to single out dutch. Collaborators are everywhere. Even your very own Bosniaks supported Nazis.
raz;
http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/mp3s.cgi?Austin_Powers_In_Goldmember=thedutch.mp3
Auschwitz is in Poland not Austria.
umm hari pota i cant find your quotes
can you check em agen
in the mean time heres one
“We also sent Lut : He said to his people : “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” Qur’an 7:80-81
in the past allah did not like gay practises so much so he wiped off whole communities
like lut/Lot’s people
there are many hadith that also go against homosexuals but there you can interpret them how you want heres two i can find:
“When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.”
“Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.” (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
there is an islamic group that is supposedly pro homosexuals called Al-Fatiha
but i only heard of them i dont know much about them
they claim 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals have been performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army.
“Auschwitz is in Austria”
ROFLMAO
Auschwitz is in Poland. Not only do you know nothing of history, it seems elementary geography is beyond you as well. It’s a sad indictement of the ignorance about the holocaust manifest within the younger generation that Vikrant could utter such a foolish thing. Of course, neither Srebrenica nor Auschwitz is in Holland (although that might be hard for Vikrant to understand), but that didn’t stop the Dutch people being responsible Jews and Muslims being slaughtered in those places.
The percentage of Jews from The Netherlands murdered by the Nazis was higher than in any other Western European country. The number of Dutch Nazi collaborators during World War II exceeded the number of those active in the resistance. The Netherlands had the highest number of Waffen SS volunteers in Western Europe. Truly sickening.
Anyone who is interested in the truth of what happened at Srebrenica rather than poisonous hatred from raz, the cheerleader for the Ayatollah Khomeini, can consult an entire web site dedicated to the topic.
http://www.srebrenica.nl/en/a_index.htm
“…Srebrenica was the unwanted child amongst these Safe Areas. At the end of 1993, no country was prepared to station its troops there after the Canadian government had announced its intention of withdrawing its forces. The Dutch government, which had been at the forefront of the international call for more decisive intervention, felt that it had no choice but to fill this vacancy in the UN’s plans.”
Call me whatever you you like, but I just can’t understand why so many mad mullahs and their alienated flock come to live in and/or stay in liberal western democracies if they so detest the way of life of these countries!!
DUH!!
As a African Briton who happens to be christian I am aware of the contradictions of being thus..but I have come to rationalise the legacy of history which affects my daily life. No I wont blow myself up. I would rather take a trip back to the heart of Africa and start again.
Conversely, I hope every muslim who is plotting or enacting violence against free thinking and free speaking christian individuals be dealt with the full force of Sharia law , to wit, have their bollocks chopped off.
Before the “we are better than you brigade start posting en-masse”, let me point out that this country wasn’t exactly the most liberating of places for women only about 40-50 years ago. Many strands of Christianity still have problems with sexual equality. Female bishops anyone? So please don’t come preaching about equality in religion - because there is none anywhere, fullstop.
This is not a dick-comparing contest, so please puts yours away OP and j0nz, because it’s becoming tired and repetitive. And your dicks ain’t anything to look at.
And raz - that Dutch link was just silly. Pakistan could do a lot more (before the earthquake anyway) to calm down Afghanistan but frankly didn’t. They were more concerned with keeping the Afghani refugees out.
Sunny, I haven’t mentioned India or Pakistan in this thread. Didn’t you yourself ask for people to stop turning everything into an India-Pakistan flamefest? Now you do it yourself.
Given the sanctimonious moralising from some Dutch people (including on this thread) , I make no apologies for reminding them of their own wonderful human rights record.
Guess what, I’m not Dutch.
Close to a million Muslims live here now. Most have settled in the Netherlands over the last 20 years or so.
The record: one Islamist murder, lots of foiled terrorist bombing plots, and some dumbass vandalism against property by “Muslims” and “Christians”.
Some racists the Dutch are, eh?
How would Pakistan fancy European Christians and Jews immigrating and quickly making up 7% of its population? Seeing as churches and mosques are blowing up in Pakistan already, I know which country I’m more worried about.
Mokum they don’t like to deal with facts here they prefer the emu approach or even worse, all out denial!
Someone will come out with some moral equivalence crap, they can’t help it! Knee-jerk liberal loony shite…
jonz
Mokum pretty much sums the Dutch mentality up. 100,000 Jews sent to the gas chambers meant nothing to them. 7000 Muslims executed meant nothing to them. What a lovely nation.
no, raz, you mean nothing.
Stop crying raz, I wasn’t making this an Indian-Pak thing, I was saying that trying to point fingera at the Dutch, previously one of the most liberal countries in Europe, is stupid.
Sunny, your point was completely wrong anyway. Pakistan has 80,000 troops deployed in anti AQ operations in Waziristan, which is CONSIDERABLY more than the entire US/NATO deployment to the WHOLE of Afghanistan. More Pakistani troops have been KIA in these operations then coalition fatalities in Afghanistan. No nation has deployed more manpower in fighting AQ in Asia than Pakistan. No nation has sacrificed more young soldiers in these battles than Pakistan. So, until the rest of the world grows the BALLS to match our committment in this area they can shut up.
Raz shut the fuck up. One slip of tongue and u go around gloating victory! Your stupid criticism of Dutch shows ur ignorance of holocaust and the prevalent anti-semitism in all the European societies. BTW even ur fabled Haj Amin Huseini participated in holocaust. Why are you beating around the bush on Yugoslav Muslims?I know more about Srebrenica probably morethan you do… beeb has been bombarbarding on us about it every July.
Btw wtf are you bleating about Srebrenica on THIS forum? Dude i got a feeling you kinda love flame wars. Hell its hard not to utter the K Word. Why isnt your “deep concern” for human rights extended to Darfuris and Kashmiri Pandits? Hell man we share a common ethnicty and ancestry but lemme guess you go around calling yourself a Syed isnt it?
7000 Muslims executed meant nothing to them. What a lovely nation.
And 60000 Hindus murdered mean nothing to you, a million Darfuris dead mean nothing to you, continued human rights abuses of non-muslims in Muslim countries mean nothing to you, a million Armenians murdered mean nothing to you…. if you wanna play this game be my guest.
Steve Davies,
“The two women quoted clearly do think this, the implication is that it is somehow wrong to criticise or attack religious beliefs.”
No - if you are refering to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji, that is not the case. Both are staunch defenders of liberal democracy and do not believe in deference to any specific belief system, religious or otherwise. Neither belives in any special protection for Islam and they are both thorough critics of Islam.
Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an apostate.
Canadian writer, Irshad Manji, on the other hand, is a Muslim who believes that Islam needs to open up to debate and criticism and that moderate Muslims have a special responsibility for making this happen. She is also a lesbian and does not consider her pro-democracy, Western feminism to be incompatible with her private following of her faith. She believes in ‘Ijtihad’ - Islam’s lost tradition of critical thinking and has mounted her own personal camped to revive it. Her thoughts are contained in her book “The Trouble with Islam” which she has translated into Arabic and which she has made available to be downloaded free from her website.
Both women are particuarly concerned about human rights issues - particularly with regard to women - under Islam. Both condemn the firebrand language used by some imamns in some mosques in the West.
See more at her website:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/
Both women think that far too many Muslims in the West are in denial about the need for them to confront Islam’s reactionary tendencies and have allowed Islamists to hi-jack Islam as part of their own aggressively political agendas.
Both women are under police guard because of their attacks - using only their free speech: something that they both acknowledge is something they could enjoy only in the West - upon some of Islam’s reactionary tendencies.
In fact, both of their predicaments highlight well the “trouble with Islam”.
They are both totally at odds with the in-denial “Islam is a religion of peace” spokespeople who too frequently present Islam and all Muslims as being totally blameless and victims of “Islamophobia” and “racism” and fail to acknowledge that a large part of the problem and solution lies with Islam and some Muslims themselves.
“personal camped ” should have read “personal campaign”.
Several writers, politicians and academics are now under police guard in The Netherlands, as a result of having exercized their freedom of speech in relation to Islam and Islamism:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1878650,00.html
People who use such tactics are damaging the view that Islam and democracy are compatible and will be largely responsible for the sharp swing to the Right that Dutch voters may well exercise at the next elections.
David Bruno - sorry you misunderstood my comment, I was referring to the two activists who were quoted, Karima Belhaj and Miriyam Aouragh.
It is a nonsense to say that it is possible for a feminist to be in favour of the hijab and arranged marriage, let alone patriarchy. Feminists, like all rational human beings, do not believe that there are different values or rules for people based on their physical differences. Beyond the obvious physical differences there are no material differences between men and women. therefore, it is absurd to apply different rules or customs according to gender/sex.
Therefore, logic says that women should not be covering themselves up, they are not there to please or satisfy men; they are not here to simply be wives and mothers; and they should not be obliged to marry. And no intelligent person would accept allowing a man to head ahousehold. These are primitive, pre-Enlightenment ideas, and it is time for the Islamic world to move beyond them. I think we are seeing this with the women’s movements in Iran and Iraq, and some of the recent expose’s of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia. I think the House of Saud shot itself in the foot by allowing a lot of women to study PhD’s and the like; if you want to subjugate women it is not a good idea to give them access to higher education!
Why are people on this forum supporting clerical fascists like the Ayatollah Homeini?
As far as the Ali/Van Gogh film goes, I am going to see it (and Ali) on Friday and i will reserve judgement til then.
David Bruno,
She believes in “Ijtihad’ - Islam’s lost tradition of critical thinking and has mounted her own personal camped to revive it. ”
She doesnt believe in ijtihad because there is no ijtihad on matters that have already been decided by the Quran and the example of Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salm) and the above definition of ijtihad is completely incorrect. What this girl does believe in is making what is haram, halal, and making what is halal, haram. That aint ijtihad.
Bikhair,
Irshad Manji provides her thoughts on ijtihad here:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ijtihad.html
Muslims in the West simply have to come to terms with their religion in the context of a Western liberal democracy and its inherent traditions and norms of freedom of expression (included critical comment) and intellectual enquiry. The only alternative is the conclusion that Islam is not compatible with liberal democracy.
Some Muslims may already believe this.
An increasing number of non-Muslims are also likely to come to this conclusion with a likely sharp swing to the Right among voters who will likely tire of the Orwellian “Islam is a religion of peace” meme trotted out by Muslims-in-denial.
Ms Manji provides one suggested route for the opening up process that is sorely needed: the project ijtihad.
This is highly relevant to this thread because those Muslims who have issued death threats against several writers, academics and politicians in The Netherlands, are actively working against the long-term interests of Muslims in the West, whereas Ms Manji and Ms Ali are raising legitimate questions about the nature of Islam and human rights within the conventions of western democracy.
Good points by David.
The conclusion of Islam being fundamentally incompatible with liberal Western democracies and the associated legal processes and rights (something some non-Muslims are already paranoid about, and which unfortunately is also being claimed by many of the fundies) could have dangerous consequences if it eventually becomes regarded as “fact” by both the general public and in political circles.
The aim of any enlightened, thinking person is for secularism.
isn’t this the point of view of a *gasp* fundamentalist?
b’shalom
bananabrain
No, it is nothing to do ith fundamnetalism. And it is absurd to compare a committed secularist with somebody who is fundamentally committed to a superstition. To be a fundamentalist about science, rationalism, logic, facts, knowledge, and intelligence is not the same as being fundamentalist about something we know to be non-existent and imaginary, not to mention repressive and reactionary.
And it is absurd to compare a committed secularist with somebody who is fundamentally committed to a superstition. To be a fundamentalist about science, rationalism, logic, facts, knowledge, and intelligence is not the same as being fundamentalist about something we know to be non-existent and imaginary, not to mention repressive and reactionary.
Paul Brown you have hit the nail on the head. I sense I might be plaigarising this quote in the future! Very well said.
Thanks. I’m glad we’re on the same wavelength. Feel free to plagiarise as much as you like!
Mann, these threads just end up in chaos.
Islam and homosexuals.
hehehehe.
Yeh, i have a feeling ill be dead by the time islam even partly accepts homo sexuality.
Whether theres some offshoot groups out there that accept it doesn’t matter.
Even with all the muslim repressed homo sexuals out there as well.
It just doesn’t matter as islam is no where near coming to terms with it, infact they dont even see it as an issue to be brought up.
Gays???