I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…

“Yep me too, and I echo Sunny’s view that Rumbold is one of the better Tories around (I really wish there were more like him…) but he still aint going to convince me to vote for the party!”

Thanks. My plan to corrupt Pickled Politics seems to be working. My undercover mission for CCHQ is nearly over, and shortly I will reveal that I am Norman Tebbit and that you have all failed the cricket test.

Sonia:

“and then, also, my problem is, even though the Tories may claim they are ‘minimal’ govt (i.e. can’t be bothered to fund infrastructure and public services anymore) they’re still – like all the other political parties out there – still going to legitimize and prop up the nation-state in the most problematic ways possible – so in the end, it really makes no difference to me. I might well vote Tory, i really can’t see much difference – in ways that matter to me – practically now between New Labour and Tory.”

Why not vote for a proper libertarian party then?

and then, also, my problem is, even though the Tories may claim they are ‘minimal’ govt (i.e. can’t be bothered to fund infrastructure and public services anymore) they’re still – like all the other political parties out there – still going to legitimize and prop up the nation-state in the most problematic ways possible – so in the end, it really makes no difference to me. I might well vote Tory, i really can’t see much difference – in ways that matter to me – practically now between New Labour and Tory.

Deep down, under all the knee jerk stuff I come out with, I have in fact huge respect for both you and Rumbold.

Yep me too, and I echo Sunny’s view that Rumbold is one of the better Tories around (I really wish there were more like him…) but he still aint going to convince me to vote for the party!

“So, where do I sit in terms of a political party?”

Conservatives. You know it makes sense.

“I take it that that is a yes?”

Yup- I agree with you on ID cards.

“However, I don’t think I think that public schoolboys are brought up to see themselves as anything other than the ruling class.”

What do you think happens in private schools Douglas? As Sonia said, it is impossible to generalise about these things. I went to a private secondary school (non-boarding), and I cannot remember this idea of us as the natural ruling class ever being broached. Maybe I went to the wrong school though.

“Which is why I am grateful for finding this site. Honestly held views, and no lack of mutual respect.”

Agreed- it makes for a great discussion atmosphere.

“There is no evidence that the Tories believe anything much different from New Labour on the States right to intervene. Correct me if I am wrong.”

While David Cameron seems content to dress himself in some of the clothes of socialism, the Conservatives in general still believe in the freedoms of the individaul over the state, which is why in that respect a Conservative government would be better.

A Conservative government is unlikely to create a land of milk and honey, but at least there will be no government official, paid for by the taxpayer, telling you the health risks involved in consuming milk and honey.

Sonia:

“I think rumbold will soon convince us to vote Tory douglas. rumbold, you are quite a persuasive fella. mind you, my problem is with parties full stop. and perhaps humans too. but then, being the extreme libertarian anarchist misanthrope i am, ill just vote green.”

You are beginning to walk the right path Sonia. Now repeat after me: vote blue, go green. Heh.

Identity cards, though a waste of money and infringement of liberty, are merely the latest in the long line of government attempts to control everything. We are already watched everywhere we go by CCTV, while hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of state officials have access to our personal data. Agents of dozens of government agencies can enter our home if they want to, and we are paying for it all. ID cards are merely the icing on the top of the superstate.

I take it that that is a yes?

Exactly. They should either have evidence or should let you go. The balance must be tilted in favour of the individual, rather than the state (which spuriously claims to be protecting society in this way).

Absolutely.

So if you go to a private school you are incapable on running the country? The Conservatives, for all their faults, are the party most likely to reduce the power and size of the state. The left-wing parties (in general) wish to increase the state’s grasp, while the right (in general) will retract it. Take your pick.

There is no evidence that the Tories believe anything much different from New Labour on the States right to intervene. Correct me if I am wrong.

Deep down, under all the knee jerk stuff I come out with, I have in fact huge respect for both you and Rumbold.

So there.

My ideas about educational elitism are not fully formed. However, I don’t think I think that public schoolboys are brought up to see themselves as anything other than the ruling class. Which is fine for them, and not so fine for me. Or perhaps your good self, either.

And hungrier for what exactly? Life just is, is it not? We tie ourselves up in knots of race, religion, class and political factionalism when we go beyond acceptance of our very fortunate existence.

Rumbold and you both cut across that divide. Which is why I am grateful for finding this site. Honestly held views, and no lack of mutual respect.

i can’t see any reason for it. of course there are some privileged etonians that are tossers, but then so are many people who went to state schools, no?

there seems to be a view floating around that if you’ve been brought up in filthy luxury you can’t possibly understand life as everyone else lives it. and that you’d be unconcerned and cushioned from life. for some people, sure, that might be true. for others, it might simply make you hungrier for life.

So, where do I sit in terms of a political party?

Excessive governance is ridiculously bureaucratic. On that we are agreed.

We also seem to agree that individual rights are more important than trumped up charges.

Whilst I might argue that a privilleged Etonian background does, in fact, make you a tosser, I’m not going to argue that point, right now.

What I am seriously asking is whether or not there is a political party that I should subscribe to.

I suspect not.

“Identity Cards? What the hell is that all about? It is, frankly along the lines that the state owns you, that the state is in some measure your parent. It is, in fact neither. It is accountabilty gone mad. A delight for bureucrats everywhere.”

Identity cards, though a waste of money and infringement of liberty, are merely the latest in the long line of government attempts to control everything. We are already watched everywhere we go by CCTV, while hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of state officials have access to our personal data. Agents of dozens of government agencies can enter our home if they want to, and we are paying for it all. ID cards are merely the icing on the top of the superstate.

“Or detention. What is that about either? If the state can level a charge at you, then let them. Otherwise, you ought to see yourself as freeborn. I do, despite the states intrusions.”

Exactly. They should either have evidence or should let you go. The balance must be tilted in favour of the individual, rather than the state (which spuriously claims to be protecting society in this way).

“Though, Eton baby is no obvious alternative. An institutionised little wannabe.”

So if you go to a private school you are incapable on running the country? The Conservatives, for all their faults, are the party most likely to reduce the power and size of the state. The left-wing parties (in general) wish to increase the state’s grasp, while the right (in general) will retract it. Take your pick.

There was no reference to Britain’s military interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, motivating the jihadists or boosting their recruitment drive.
This culture of denial lets British leaders feign innocence about the West’s murderous interventions in the Middle East for the last 100 years – from Algeria to Afghanistan.
————————

In January 2005 Gordon Brown declared, at a press conference in Tanzania of all places:
“the days of Britain having to apologise for its colonial history are over. We should celebrate much of our past rather than apologise for it. We should talk about enduring British values – they stand for the greatest ideas in history that grew in Britain and influenced the rest of the world: tolerance, liberty, civic duty; our strong traditions of fair play, openness, internationalism. These are great British values.”

But in the colonies, laws institutionalising discrimination & segregation were rigidly enforced, even in most churches.
And do decades of race abuse and attacks on black & Asian migrants (not to mention deaths in police custody) in the UK signify tolerance?

In Feb 2006, Amnesty International condemned UK’s violation of Human Rights such as detaining suspects without charge + curbing of civil liberties + invasion/torture in Iraq….

This Gordon Brown must go. He is a more wooden version version of Tony Blair.

The Bolsheviks! This government has a Stalinist core, methinks.

Identity Cards? What the hell is that all about? It is, frankly along the lines that the state owns you, that the state is in some measure your parent. It is, in fact neither. It is accountabilty gone mad. A delight for bureucrats everywhere.

Or detention. What is that about either? If the state can level a charge at you, then let them. Otherwise, you ought to see yourself as freeborn. I do, despite the states intrusions. Though, Eton baby is no obvious alternative. An institutionised little wannabe.

I totally agree, this is a party whose sole purpose is to remain in power by whatever means. I am not voting for them even if it means the Tories get in power. The parallels between 1990-1992 and at present is astonishing. I’m sick of being treated like a neglected lover (Sic) and I can’t be bothered with these lot anymore. I totally agree with you Leon, I smell something in the air.

Despite appearances to the contrary, Labour MPs are not stupid. They know that to start a civil war in order to get rid of Brown would damage the party. Many of these MPs are New Labourites or Brownites, whose sole purpose for being in power is to remain in power (see ’1984′). Since they have little in the way of actual ideological beliefs, they are willing to submit to the Brown regime if it keeps them in office, as they realise a divided party looks bad in public.

Labour rebels are few and far between, and they are more pro-Brown than they were pro-Blair. Unions too are happy again after Gordon Brown bribed them to support him using taxpayers’ money.

The EU constitution will prove a hiccup, but no more than that, as enough Labour MPs will remember the lessons of the eighties. The Bolsheviks will be here to stay for another few years.

It would only need some, preferably high profile, English sports commentator to suggest that Scotland should not have an international team. Then you’d be right royally screwed.

Obviously, we’d need to invade the Orkneys and Shetlands for their own good. Yanks would stand and clap at such an obvious ‘bringing of democracy’ We would, clearly, be bringing ‘peace on behalf of all mankind’

Oil revenues? What oil revenues?