I am disappointed that as someone who regards himself as a true voice of moderation, you do very little to question why Islamic Cultural Society, Regents Park Mosque and mainstream Muslim organisations are not publishing a statement at the practice of Saudi Arabia. A Saudi court recently sentenced a gang rape victim to 90 lashes of the whip because she was alone in a car with a man to whom she was not married.

Where is the condemnation to affirm that this is not Islamic and that these organisations condemn what Saudi Arabia has done?

Is it all good to condemn Israel, but why not condemn Saudi ‘Kafir’ Arabia hahahahah

Its hard to keep up with the many half-truths and innuendos in the comment and subsequent posts here. But for the record:

Dr Bari’s alleged comments about Nazi Germany:
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-687

MCB not taking the initiative in reaching out to Hindu and Sikh groups:
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-142

On MCB being anti-semitic

http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-244

http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-458

Go on, say it, mere platutudes!

Thanks for the reply.

On point one, as I said, I have absolutely no issue with religious groups advocating their point of view. For instance, I happen to agree with the MCB that halal meat should be available as part of school dinners.

On the second point, I appreciate the point you are making. Much as Joy1 has an issue with the MCB claiming to represent a group; perhaps through self aggrandisement, or dam’ fine marketing; I have an identical issue with the National Secular Society (NSS). Neither body can realistically claim to represent the broad groups that they claim to. Indeed, in my case – the latter example – I’d never even heard of them before they were mentioned on a thread here. And now I find Terry Sanderson (head honcho NSS) and I agree to disagree. Given the lack of awareness within the Muslim community of the MCB, and it’s low (consequent?) opinion poll ratings amongst that group, I have a considerable sympathy for anyone that says’ “not in my name”.

Please be clear, the good works that you allude to are, indeed, good. I am not knocking that at all.

So, what’s to be done about it? I think my idea of an alternative vote, based on religion or lack of it, that you quite rightly lampoon, leaves us with political engagement through the current structures.

Oh, and I’m glad we agree about difference being what unites us. It could almost be a motto.

Is there not a danger that we are simply getting bogged down with semantics i.e. don’t say Britsh Muslims but affilates?

Sometimes one has to accept that amongst a group of people there are mainstream views which people can rightly claim as such on their behalf. For example, if England loose to Croatia on Wednesday night, would any of the tabloids be wrong if they had the headline ‘The English Public wants McClaren Out’… me thinks not. I doubt if PP would dedicate entire threads to the issue if the tabloids were right to ‘speak in our name’.

I am of the view that on substantive issues MCB captures the right pulse of what Muslims feel, their main problem is how they argue their points. (that and Dr. Bari’s poor grasp of the English language)

For example it would be right to suggest that generally British Muslims were against the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. However, there are other Muslims who actually supported the war. We wouldn’t present this scenario as being a divided issue within the community, but one which has a clear mainstraem view.

Your point about local communities is a good one, however many of them are and continue to affiliate with MCB. I see the MCB becoming stronger and more influential as they learn to better incorporate the genuine concerns and views of their members and the community at large.

Good to be back. The last point may well open up an interesting debate…perhaps when I finish my dissertation on Locke I might even be able to contribute something intelligent!

Post 114
“(i) ”

If religious groups were using the political process to surreptitiously gain and leverage their influence to impose their ideal upon others, then I would agree with you. I think that however in most cases it is about faith communities trying to negotiate their practices in shared social spaces.

“(ii) Would it not be reasonable, that in order to say you represent someone, that you at least ask them to vote for you? I would suspect that, if it were you that was creating the MCB from scratch, that you’d do that. Well? Wouldn’t you?”

Well, unless you’re suggesting Muslims set up an alternative parliament i don’t see how they could elect their own separate, community leaders? Well… perhaps we could have a show, “I’m a Muslim, get me out of here’ with wannabe Islamic leaders being voted off. Mind you, not sure how we would handle eating those insects, we would have to have them halal first! I could ask the Islam Channel to do the screening, as you never know with the other television companies with all the shenanigans we have witnessed recently!!!

Anyway…I do believe in an elective process, however people also need to view matters in less parochial ways. The realities are that amongst small groups of people ‘leaders’ emerge not through an elective process, but through their deeds, standing and achievements, which are recognised by their peers either through active ascent or through passive acceptance. Take a footballing analogy; hear the great players of the past, they talk about having ‘leaders’ on the pitch, not necessarily the captain, but people who have a feel of what needs doing and how, and who are looked upto by others. That is one point.

Now with regards to MCB, the thing to recognise, and indeed remember is that many Muslims have, freely chosen to set up organisations, groups, societies, associations etc which have a good standing in the community. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t get any business, both commercial and charitable both from the community and wider society at large. A case in point is the current tragedy in Bangladesh, many of leading Muslim NGO’s such as Islamic Relief and Muslim Aid have received positive responses from people as they are trusted and accountable.

Now MCB is comprised of these types of organisations, hence that’s why it has the profile it does. Now of course MCB does not claim to represent all Muslims, only its members, and it is the members who operate on the basis that Muslims constitute a distinct faith community. The members in that sense are not secular, though of course they are law-abiding and uphold democratic principles.

If the Muslims who consider themselves secular don’t like this, well all they have to do is set up alternative organisations, associations etc, on the same scale that many, though not all MCB members have done, and they will be called representative.

However this is not going to happen as quite frankly they don’t have mainstream support. Hence when Martin Bright, Ed Hassain et al, claim the need to have wider representation they are actually clutching at straws…and I am not talking about the Rt Hon Jack!

By the way, one of the myths which people like Ed Hussain put forward is that the Sufi Islamic tradition is less malleable to the malevolent intentions of certain preachers is actually without foundation; for if you actually read the works of people to whom he refers to, such as the likes of Nuh Keller, Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad you will actually find striking parallels on substantive points with the likes of Qutb and Maududi. The distinctions are nuances in theology – which mean great things to believers, but are somewhat of an irrelevance to non-believers.

“Just for your amusement, I think the lack of a set of common values, and the toleration of others values is all anyone, anywhere needs to know about Britishness.”

I would agree absolutely with you!

My point is only that it is wrong, both historically and politically to claim that it is the New Labour multi-cultural politics’ of the 1990s that has brought this scenario to fruition. And if people claim that the lack of a common set of values has harmed society, shouldn’t the blame lie not at faith communities, which actually possess internally a common set of values, but actually the very values which supposedly underpin Britishness?

“Inevitable only because othrs have been attacking Muslims and thus people become self-defensive and thus start identifying themselves as Muslims more. But why imperitive?”

Don’t agree.

To view the rise in Muslim identity politics simply in terms of victimhood is simply looking at the issue in a parochial and indeed reactionary manner. Muslims were not as vocal before the 1990′s of their identity mainly because they actually took it for granted, particularly so as they often felt it was synonymous with their respective ethnic identities i.e. Pakistani, Bengali, Egyptian etc. However, with the realisation, brought about mainly by social and political changes, and indeed challenges that the two are NOT the same (though i am not suggesting they are mutually exclusive) came an assertiveness in proclaiming an Islamic identity which was distinct, both and an individual, but, importantly for our discussion here, a community level.

Even if you view matters globally, in many parts of the Muslim world, there is an increasing consciousness to assert the Muslim identity as being separate from ethnic/national identities. This I add is only for purposes of clarity, and not a change of content, for most Muslims would still have said they are Muslims before, by saying they were Pakistani first as they saw no separation between this and being Muslim (obviously this is not true for there are Pakistani Christians, who are no less Pakistani).

Historically and culturally the concept of ummah has played a big part in the worldview of Muslim societies spread across the world. This is true of all strands of Islamic theology, be it Salafi or Sufi, but also in the consciousness of Muslim societies.

It’s a difficult point for people to grasp, perhaps because no real analysis has been done, and perhaps also because ordinary people don’t associate the average Muslim they acquaint with, who is open, tolerant and compassionate (in most cases…i hope anyway) with ideas which, ostensibly seem communalist, and intolerant.

It is in this sense I meant imperative – as the content has never changed, just the presentation.

Sukhi:

Actually it is NOT organised by MAB for sure, it is by the Islam Channel through its sister company ‘Global Peace & Unity Events. Thye organisation pools together people from many backgrounds, including those which haqve been inspired by Muslim Brotherhood, and also people who are critical of Islamist organisations, like Dr. T J Winters who will be speaking at the event, who according to Ed Hussain should be the leading authority of Islam in the UK.

I hope that clarifies matters.

The popular outpouring is that of the ordinary Muslim who is not attending as a gesture of party loyalty, but of his own accord. Many of them wouldn’t have a clue who Qutb and Maududi were, they are just ordinary people. Hence i would say again that the importance of having an identity rooted in Islam is something rooted in the consciousness of Muslim communities and not socially constructed – though of course some people would like to steer it in directions which may not be true to its purposes.

I haven’t said the MCB should be disbanded. Clearly Inayat is not going to suddenly see the light and shut shop. I’m raising these questions because I think there are serious problems we face in social cohesion, which involve Muslims and non-Muslims, and the MCB is only making things worse. To that extent, questioning its legitimacy is valid from my point of view. But of course, the onus is on empowered Muslims to push for things to change.

Oh don’t worry, I’m still around, old bean.

This is an interesting thread – if you’re interested in watching a bunch of medievalist throwbacks trying to defend the indefensible, that is.

I’m afraid I don’t buy this either. The MCB has done its best to foster bad relations with Jews by not criticising HuT and their anti-semitism and boycotting the Holocaust Memorial Day. They have no inter-faith dialogue with the Hindu and Sikh organisations (for political reasons they all hate each other). And generally the MCB have only made most people even more suspicious of Muslims. I’m afraid I can’t agree that they’ve helped inter-faith dialogue.

There are plenty of good inter-faith dialogue initiatives but as far as I can tell they weren’t spear-headed by the MCB. Aliph-Alef, Shalom-Salaam, Three Faiths Forum.

When the Al-Muhajiroun crew were stirring up trouble a few years ago between Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, where was the MCB? Nowhere.

There little events that you went to… – you have to ask yourself whether they were organised by the MCB or just something they put their names to.

Saqib: is an inevitable and inexorable reality – if not an imperative.

Inevitable only because othrs have been attacking Muslims and thus people become self-defensive and thus start identifying themselves as Muslims more. But why imperitive?

People have multiple identities and each identity becomes more important in different contexts. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t know what exactly you’re suggesting.

Yeah right, and having a muslim identity is the same as having a “communalist agenda”. That is Grade-A PREMIUM bullshit. Conflating politics and religion? Wtf? Just another in the long line of confused people who really don’t understand the point and can only come up with the same tired lines over and over again. Come out with something solid if you want to make a point. Get your head out of the clouds and back on the ground.

And regarding whatever you are on about in 122, read some Walt and Mearshimer before using people’s idiotic comments to justify your own arguments.

Dr Abdul Bari of MCB recently warned that the climate of fear and suspicion toward Muslims in Britain is becoming similar to that in Nazi Germany during 1930s. I cannot see the parallels. Where are the extermination camps? Are Muslims being rounded up and killed? It’s a highly inflammatory remark.

It’s also incredible coming from an organisation that boycotts Holocaust Memorial Day for bigoted communalist reasons, and is associated with individuals who have spent their life peddling classical 19th and 20th Century European anti-semitic conspiracy theories and demonisatio (as Bunglawala used to do), and subscribe to a political dogma that places Jewish conspiracy at the centre of their worldview (that of the Maududi – Qutb Islamist Deobandi ideology that the MCB leadership promote)

So you disagree? Can you explain what is so ridiculous about my statement?

Criticising the MCB and other communalist separatist bodies equals ‘not being able to accept identity blah blah blah’ —- conflate politics and religion and you can try and use this baseball bat on anyone. It’s absolute grade A bullshit and Sikh and Hindu communalists use the same twisted logic.

So you disagree? Can you explain what is so ridiculous about my statement?

“The MCB practises a form of political Islam, separatism and communalist policy.”

I think you are being a bit sensationalist. The MCB by its definition is a political body set up by Muslims. A “form of Political Islam”….what the hell does that mean exactly? Seperatism I disagree with. They have made some ridiculous comments, but I have mainly seen an effort to integrate to be honest. Please clarify. For “Communalist policy”, I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you referring to the way the organisation is run?

And also, w.r.t. criticism, are you equating “protests of Islamaphobia” with immunity to criticism? So basically if I accuse you of being an Islamaphobe, then I am implicitly calling for an end to debate? Give me an example.

I accept there is a growing unease between the Muslim community and the rest of British society but the MCB is not addressing the problem. By continuing to view things only on sectarian lines it is increasing polarisation along religious lines.

Sukhi may not be able to come to terms with the fact that being a practising muslim entails having a massive grounding of Islamic identity

Don’t set up ridiculous straw men and play the victim hood card. The MCB practises a form of political Islam, separatism and communalist policy, and expects immunity from criticism (protests of Islamophobia) even when in receipt of public funds.

This is a popular outpouring, and not a politically manufactured stunct by a few wise men.

Actually, it is organised by the MAB and other Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist organisations.