The question here is: how will atheists react? How will our definition of a secular society change? After all, if you’re going to exclude a Sikh girl from wearing her kara from school, why not be consistent and ban Christmas as well? Shouldn’t societies strive to treat everyone equally?”

Sunny, I don’t follow you. If you want equality, then you can’t oppose having all students – including Christians – to stop wearing religious symbols. Why should this preclude from celebrating Christmas? Because I am not aware that Diwali and all other celebrations are banned as well.

What does ‘equal playing ground’ mean then? That there should be a holiday for every religion in the UK, regardless of the number of people who celebrate it?

Religion hasn’t had much hold on Western Europe for a long time, so where is ‘religous power’ (whatever the heck that is, the term completely baffles me) supposed to be shifting _from_?

And you should have provided a link to explain your reference to the ‘Sikh girl’, a story I seem to have missed. All I remember from my school was they quickly gave up on having any dress code at all, they were just grateful if anybody actually turned up!

David – heh.

The Heresiarch – thanks for that too.

Halima – I agree with all of that, and yes I’d rather make it an equal playing ground than ban Christmas (silly idea but my point remains)

Taiwan’s Christians are almost all either Catholic or Presbyterian. If you look at what is happening in terms of denomination rather than at Christianity as a whole in fact very similar patterns are being replicated everywhere and everything looks more simple.

USA – Evangelicals (particularly Pentecostals) are increasing in number, Catholics and mainline Protestants increasingly becoming “no religion”. Net effect is a reduction in total number identifying as Christians over time.

UK – Evangelicals (particularly Pentecostals) are increasing in number, even after factoring out African immigration. Though Evangelicals are growing from a much smaller base than they were to start with in the US. Catholics and mainline Protestants increasingly becoming “no religion”. Only other growing segment is Orthodox Christianity, but this appears to be essentially entirely immigration related unlike the growth in Pentecostalism which is at least half indigenous.

Latin America – Evangelicals (particularly Pentecostals) are increasing in number, Catholics increasingly becoming “no religion” as well as switching to Pentecostalism.

China, South Korea – Evangelicals (particularly Pentecostals) are increasing in number, Catholics increasing in number but more slowly. In China growth is largely in secretive “house churches” in Korea it is in “megachurches”. “No religion” decreasing, Buddhism increasing in China after previous government suppression but it is decreasing in South Korea, often losing out to Pentecostalism.

Africa – already quite thoroughly Pentecostalised. Mainline Protestant denominations have a very Evangelical character, even the Quakers. In 1900 non Muslim areas were mostly animist / pagan, today they are thoroughly Christian, the majority of that conversion happened after colonialism. In 1900 Africa was 3% Christian, today it is over 50% Christian with the fortysomething percent of the continent that is Muslim remaining static. Catholicism and Islam holding steady in terms of total proportions. Very little sign of people becoming “no religion”.

Western Europe excluding UK – Large falls in Catholic and mainline Protestants to “no religion”. Pentecostal / Evangelical presence very small but growing, mostly indigenously, even in unexpected places like the Republic of Ireland and France but from a tiny base.

Eastern Europe including Russia – “No religion” decreasing. Orthodox Christianity increasing. Pentecostals / Evangelicals increasing but as in western Europe only from a very small base.

India – Pretty large scale conversions to Christianity amongst lower castes in southern states but small beer in terms of total proportions. Again Evangelicals and Pentecostals are making most of the running. Hinduism and Islam holding steady without much slippage to “no religion”. Islam somewhat eating into Hinduism’s percentage but for demographic rather than conversion reasons.

Muslim world – Islam holding steady against “no religion” and increasing strongly through high birth rates, though they are decreasing. Unlike Christianity Islam is only gaining a trickle of converts outside it’s borders but where it interfaces with Christianity, such as Nigeria, it holds firm against it’s spread, though often violence results. There is some Christian conversion of Muslims occurring in some parts of Africa and in the former Soviet “Stans” however and very little going the other way. Worldwide Christianity and Islam are largely increasing in tandem, Christianity adding somewhat more new members a year in absolute numbers and Islam adding slightly more new members in terms of the proportion of the total.

Philippines – As per Latin America, rapid growth of Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, falling Catholicism and some slippage to “no religion”.

Well that describes what’s happening in most of the world. Apologies for the long post.

The question here is: how will atheists react?

Are there really any atheist groups in the same way there are religious groups?

At my local church last week, an Iraqi Christian parishioner was saying that since the invasion of Iraq Christians face terrible persecution; although they are 5% of the Iraqi population they make up 40% of Iraqi refugees. Churches are desecrated, priests are murdered, and Christian refugees are unwelcome in neighbouring countries. Palestinian Christians are today an endangered species.

In India Christians have done sterling work with the poor; and Christian educational institutions are easily some of the best in the country. Christianity arrived in India in 52AD with the arrival of St Thomas; that’s before it arrived in Europe. Although the official Christian population of India is 2.34% (24 million) there are millions of new “secret” converts to Christianity from the lowest castes who have not changed their “official” religious status because they won’t be entitled to affirmative action benefits for low caste Hindus.

Along with the rise of Hindu nationalism violence against Christians in India has also increased: http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/09/30/india1626.htm . Some states have introduced “anti-conversion” laws to check conversions from Hinduism but its also a tool frequently used by Hindu militants to attack Christian missionaries.

Santa Claus, santas little helpers, christmas trees, presents from Santa Claus, Santa’s raindeers… are not christian at all.

Damn right. Just ask Billy Bob Thornton, as depicted in the movie “Bad Santa”. And no, I’m not miffed just because he got to Angelina before I did, dammit.

“The question here is: how will atheists react? How will our definition of a secular society change? After all, if you’re going to exclude a Sikh girl from wearing her kara from school, why not be consistent and ban Christmas as well? Shouldn’t societies strive to treat everyone equally?”

Christmas is not a religious holiday: it is a secular one. Santa Claus, santas little helpers, christmas trees, presents from Santa Claus, Santa’s raindeers… are not christian at all.

As to the situation in the orient, Islam has ancient and active outposts in the East, while Christianity never really got going there. So it has the appeal of novelty, and also its association with the West (especially the US) which is still seen as the model of modernity. I suspect that its appeal to individualism (especially Protestantism) also has attractions to people in parts of the world which have traditionally had stiffling levels of societal and familiar conformity.

A most interesting post, Sunny.

It’s not necessarily the Christians who could stop a ban, since banning Christmas would probably bring down the retail industry.

Bit of a non sequitur there, Sunny!

Most religions came from the East including Christianity. Over the years many of the values we regard as superior in the West actually came from the East.

William Dalrymple has a nice article about this here: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_25359.shtml

A couple of issues about “the East”, though: while there are certainly a lot of Chinese Christians, there are not many conversions happening in Japan. And in Taiwan, modernisation appears to be connected to a decline in Christianity.

“The axis of all religions, including Christianity, is shifting East along with economic power.”

Surely, moving back East?

Definitely.