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	<title>Comments on: Policy Exchange&#8217;s report on mosques</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493</link>
	<description>Current affairs for a progressive generation</description>
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		<title>By: Best Wedding Ideas</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-88200</link>
		<dc:creator>Best Wedding Ideas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 05:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-88200</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Best Wedding Ideas...&lt;/strong&gt;

I couldn&#039;t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Best Wedding Ideas&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87601</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87601</guid>
		<description>I read &lt;a href=&quot;http://islamics.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/has-islam-been-hijacked-in-the-uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this person&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; viewpoint on the Policy Exchange report: 

&quot;The author of the recent report is a Dr. Denis MacEoin, Wikipedia article describes him as:

    a novelist and a former lecturer in Islamic studies. His academic specializations are Shiâ€˜ism, Shaykhism, BÃ¡bism, and the BahÃ¡â€™Ã­ Faith, on all of which he has written extensively. His novels are written under the pen names Daniel Easterman and Jonathan Aycliffe.

The article also mentions:

    In recent years, he has become active in pro-Israel advocacy (hasbara), chiefly in his capacity as a writer. He continues to work on Islamic issues, particularly the development of radical Islam.

I think reports such as these should serve as a wakeup call for the advocates of liberal democracy who are quick to address extremism elsewhere, when they have such dangerous form of extremism growing inside.&quot;

ahem!so what do people think about this angle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read <a href="http://islamics.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/has-islam-been-hijacked-in-the-uk/" rel="nofollow">this person&#8217;s</a> viewpoint on the Policy Exchange report: </p>
<p>&#8220;The author of the recent report is a Dr. Denis MacEoin, Wikipedia article describes him as:</p>
<p>    a novelist and a former lecturer in Islamic studies. His academic specializations are Shiâ€˜ism, Shaykhism, BÃ¡bism, and the BahÃ¡â€™Ã­ Faith, on all of which he has written extensively. His novels are written under the pen names Daniel Easterman and Jonathan Aycliffe.</p>
<p>The article also mentions:</p>
<p>    In recent years, he has become active in pro-Israel advocacy (hasbara), chiefly in his capacity as a writer. He continues to work on Islamic issues, particularly the development of radical Islam.</p>
<p>I think reports such as these should serve as a wakeup call for the advocates of liberal democracy who are quick to address extremism elsewhere, when they have such dangerous form of extremism growing inside.&#8221;</p>
<p>ahem!so what do people think about this angle?</p>
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		<title>By: Sofia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87518</link>
		<dc:creator>Sofia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87518</guid>
		<description>Sunny - going back to the issue of the MCB...everyone has the right to criticise..what i was questioning was your point about the organisation not interested in the cohesion debate. I think they are, but have gone about it the wrong way and in some way expected Muslim communities in their diversity to accept the MCB as some sort of representation. 
In the last 10 years or so I have probably come into contact with a lot of national muslim orgs, most of them have issues for want of a better phrase of &quot;cults of personalities&quot; which is an unfortunate by product of celebrity and media exposure. Most of these ppl you will probably have come across, and to tell you the truth, the ones that are actually doing the grass root hard slog with no thanks are those behind the scenes who have no interest in hogging the limelight or being spokespersons for &quot;their&quot; &quot;communities&quot;..so yes, as an org the MCB has its limitations and faults..but I just wish ppl could see past this and look at the positive works that ppl are doing at a local level...that&#039;s all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny &#8211; going back to the issue of the MCB&#8230;everyone has the right to criticise..what i was questioning was your point about the organisation not interested in the cohesion debate. I think they are, but have gone about it the wrong way and in some way expected Muslim communities in their diversity to accept the MCB as some sort of representation.<br />
In the last 10 years or so I have probably come into contact with a lot of national muslim orgs, most of them have issues for want of a better phrase of &#8220;cults of personalities&#8221; which is an unfortunate by product of celebrity and media exposure. Most of these ppl you will probably have come across, and to tell you the truth, the ones that are actually doing the grass root hard slog with no thanks are those behind the scenes who have no interest in hogging the limelight or being spokespersons for &#8220;their&#8221; &#8220;communities&#8221;..so yes, as an org the MCB has its limitations and faults..but I just wish ppl could see past this and look at the positive works that ppl are doing at a local level&#8230;that&#8217;s all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Muhamad</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87469</link>
		<dc:creator>Muhamad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87469</guid>
		<description>I wish there was something in the air that could cause an expunction of all religious literature. :-)
The tedium of Te Deum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish there was something in the air that could cause an expunction of all religious literature. <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
The tedium of Te Deum.</p>
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		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87465</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87465</guid>
		<description>well i dont think anyone is suggesting they ban the Quran are they now? if anything was going to encourage extremism that would be one such document. thankfully most people have never read it, so there&#039;s not too much to worry about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well i dont think anyone is suggesting they ban the Quran are they now? if anything was going to encourage extremism that would be one such document. thankfully most people have never read it, so there&#8217;s not too much to worry about.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87464</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87464</guid>
		<description>j0nz - there&#039;s all sorts of criticism about what encourages extremism etc. My question is - where&#039;s the literature inciting murder? Please provide evidence for that.

Otherwise, the &#039;encouraging extremism&#039; argument is redundant and a waste of time simply because its covered by free speech. Otherwise I&#039;d quite rightly ask for the Daily Express to be banned for encouraging racism :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>j0nz &#8211; there&#8217;s all sorts of criticism about what encourages extremism etc. My question is &#8211; where&#8217;s the literature inciting murder? Please provide evidence for that.</p>
<p>Otherwise, the &#8216;encouraging extremism&#8217; argument is redundant and a waste of time simply because its covered by free speech. Otherwise I&#8217;d quite rightly ask for the Daily Express to be banned for encouraging racism <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87463</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87463</guid>
		<description>More reassuring news:

&lt;i&gt;Hate on the State: How British libraries encourage Islamic extremism

By James Brandon and Douglas Murray
Hate on the State

The first report published by the Centre for Social Cohesion examines how public libraries may be fuelling Islamic radicalism. The study finds that &lt;b&gt;the libraries of Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Birmingham in particular have stocked a disproportionate number of pro-jihadist texts at the expense of more moderate authors.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;

http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/

Big surprise. Not!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More reassuring news:</p>
<p><i>Hate on the State: How British libraries encourage Islamic extremism</p>
<p>By James Brandon and Douglas Murray<br />
Hate on the State</p>
<p>The first report published by the Centre for Social Cohesion examines how public libraries may be fuelling Islamic radicalism. The study finds that <b>the libraries of Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Birmingham in particular have stocked a disproportionate number of pro-jihadist texts at the expense of more moderate authors.</b><b></b></i></p>
<p><a href="http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/</a></p>
<p>Big surprise. Not!</p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87462</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87462</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s face it - inner city Mosques and Islamic bookshops are a mecca (heh) for extremists. Extremists, are, after all, just very &#039;islamic&#039;, and want the government, and everyone else to be &#039;islamic&#039;.

Yes Sonia, it confuses me where we stand with the legislation now. Even with legislation, I just cannot imagine white police officers raiding islamic book shops. Screams of racism etc abound. I think they will do pretty much what they do now, steer clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s face it &#8211; inner city Mosques and Islamic bookshops are a mecca (heh) for extremists. Extremists, are, after all, just very &#8216;islamic&#8217;, and want the government, and everyone else to be &#8216;islamic&#8217;.</p>
<p>Yes Sonia, it confuses me where we stand with the legislation now. Even with legislation, I just cannot imagine white police officers raiding islamic book shops. Screams of racism etc abound. I think they will do pretty much what they do now, steer clear.</p>
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		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87455</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87455</guid>
		<description>well if someone walks into the mosque and leaves such literature, it should be easy enough to &#039;shame&#039; the mosque into feeling it needs to remove such shameful literature - if it wants to hold up its head as as &#039;respectful&#039; member of society - you dont need to walk into a place and &#039;seize&#039; anything. and the whole point would be to shame these people for allowing such silly things to be &#039;connected&#039; to their religion - the onus is on them to show their religion isn&#039;t disgraceful, and by leaving such things lying around, it simply confirms that they are not against such hateful literature, so is a dent in their image. its their own loss if they want to condone such unpleasant literature - given that everyone else has found out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well if someone walks into the mosque and leaves such literature, it should be easy enough to &#8216;shame&#8217; the mosque into feeling it needs to remove such shameful literature &#8211; if it wants to hold up its head as as &#8216;respectful&#8217; member of society &#8211; you dont need to walk into a place and &#8216;seize&#8217; anything. and the whole point would be to shame these people for allowing such silly things to be &#8216;connected&#8217; to their religion &#8211; the onus is on them to show their religion isn&#8217;t disgraceful, and by leaving such things lying around, it simply confirms that they are not against such hateful literature, so is a dent in their image. its their own loss if they want to condone such unpleasant literature &#8211; given that everyone else has found out.</p>
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		<title>By: sonia</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87454</link>
		<dc:creator>sonia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87454</guid>
		<description>i thought that this was the sort of thing the religious hatred act is all about?  seeing as its hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief. anyway, i dont know if that then means they nab the person stirring up religious hatred, but leave the literature? or perhaps the literature itself is not banned, but becomes &#039;evidence&#039; relating to crime..?

i suppose we&#039;re waiting for that Statutory instrument before it can come into force?

( i suppose we need some lawyers here..)

and then we&#039;d have to be able to nab someone for it,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i thought that this was the sort of thing the religious hatred act is all about?  seeing as its hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief. anyway, i dont know if that then means they nab the person stirring up religious hatred, but leave the literature? or perhaps the literature itself is not banned, but becomes &#8216;evidence&#8217; relating to crime..?</p>
<p>i suppose we&#8217;re waiting for that Statutory instrument before it can come into force?</p>
<p>( i suppose we need some lawyers here..)</p>
<p>and then we&#8217;d have to be able to nab someone for it,</p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87453</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87453</guid>
		<description>Sunny, do you think it should be legal to incite others to murder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny, do you think it should be legal to incite others to murder?</p>
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		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87452</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87452</guid>
		<description>Sunny, DenisMac&#039;s response to you on the CiF thread is substantial and strong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny, DenisMac&#8217;s response to you on the CiF thread is substantial and strong.</p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87451</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87451</guid>
		<description>Sunny you missed my point. I don&#039;t think &#039;hate&#039; speech should be banned. I think anything inciting MURDER should be banned ;)

Freedom of speech, freedom to hate, to incite hatred even, but I draw the lines at inciting murder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny you missed my point. I don&#8217;t think &#8216;hate&#8217; speech should be banned. I think anything inciting MURDER should be banned <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Freedom of speech, freedom to hate, to incite hatred even, but I draw the lines at inciting murder.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87450</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87450</guid>
		<description>j0nz - which bit of inciting violence literature are you referring to exactly? We allow the BNP to make up stuff about Muslims so they can incite hatred. That&#039;s free speech for you pal. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>j0nz &#8211; which bit of inciting violence literature are you referring to exactly? We allow the BNP to make up stuff about Muslims so they can incite hatred. That&#8217;s free speech for you pal. <img src='http://www.pickledpolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87449</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87449</guid>
		<description>By saying it&#039;s lawful to have such hatred literature, the state is giving the tacit message that it&#039;s ok. The law is there to protect us. How does protecting literature inciting murder protect us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By saying it&#8217;s lawful to have such hatred literature, the state is giving the tacit message that it&#8217;s ok. The law is there to protect us. How does protecting literature inciting murder protect us?</p>
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		<title>By: j0nz</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87448</link>
		<dc:creator>j0nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87448</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t much of this literature be illegal under existing legislation? Calling for death for jews etc?

I cant imagine the law allowing BNP to set up shop in every town selling literature calling for the death of other groups.

Yup it should be banned since it crosses the line from free speech into inciting murder. All for free speech, but it&#039;s not without bounds. It would be illegal to call for the death of blacks. And, rightly too, I believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t much of this literature be illegal under existing legislation? Calling for death for jews etc?</p>
<p>I cant imagine the law allowing BNP to set up shop in every town selling literature calling for the death of other groups.</p>
<p>Yup it should be banned since it crosses the line from free speech into inciting murder. All for free speech, but it&#8217;s not without bounds. It would be illegal to call for the death of blacks. And, rightly too, I believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Natty</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87447</link>
		<dc:creator>Natty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 17:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87447</guid>
		<description>Natty - a rather pathetic â€œdenialâ€ - someone could have just left it there unauthorised and no-one noticed - yeah, right.

ChrisC - So you are telling me that major public worship places such as Regents Park Mosque where thousands of people go everyday it is not possible to leave literature?

Any major public worship place is openly accessible and people can easily leave anything.

I think your understanding of large public worship places is rather poor.

Many of the mosques mentioned are large institutions and as such attarct thousands of people per day, so for someone to leave material lying around is simple.

It is the same for a Cathedral.

I&#039;ve read reports in the media of Students fairs where different groups leave around material and those are smaller locations.

I am not denying anything, I am saying this can happen.

The solution is to either:

a) Not provide a public notice facility

or

b) more staff to ensure it doesn&#039;t happen.

We need to be practical as some of these sites range from 1/4 to 1/2 acre in size.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natty &#8211; a rather pathetic â€œdenialâ€ &#8211; someone could have just left it there unauthorised and no-one noticed &#8211; yeah, right.</p>
<p>ChrisC &#8211; So you are telling me that major public worship places such as Regents Park Mosque where thousands of people go everyday it is not possible to leave literature?</p>
<p>Any major public worship place is openly accessible and people can easily leave anything.</p>
<p>I think your understanding of large public worship places is rather poor.</p>
<p>Many of the mosques mentioned are large institutions and as such attarct thousands of people per day, so for someone to leave material lying around is simple.</p>
<p>It is the same for a Cathedral.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read reports in the media of Students fairs where different groups leave around material and those are smaller locations.</p>
<p>I am not denying anything, I am saying this can happen.</p>
<p>The solution is to either:</p>
<p>a) Not provide a public notice facility</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>b) more staff to ensure it doesn&#8217;t happen.</p>
<p>We need to be practical as some of these sites range from 1/4 to 1/2 acre in size.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87446</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87446</guid>
		<description>The author of the Policy Exchange report has written a reply underneath my article on CIF in reply. And misses the point completely... waxing on about how we went to some leftist rally. These people annoy me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author of the Policy Exchange report has written a reply underneath my article on CIF in reply. And misses the point completely&#8230; waxing on about how we went to some leftist rally. These people annoy me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87442</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87442</guid>
		<description>My spelling is bad today, &#039;done&#039; for &#039;down&#039;, &#039;argues&#039; for &#039;argued&#039;, I&#039;m cracking up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My spelling is bad today, &#8216;done&#8217; for &#8216;down&#8217;, &#8216;argues&#8217; for &#8216;argued&#8217;, I&#8217;m cracking up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jagdeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87441</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagdeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1493#comment-87441</guid>
		<description>On a simlar theme, remeber the West Midlands police and OFCOM and the Channel 4 documentary? Here&#039;s a Newsnight investigation into the whole affair, one to watch if you argues against me at the time, for sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwCrzp_Mo2M

OFCOM report is going to released into the situation soon. Look forward to debating it here on PP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a simlar theme, remeber the West Midlands police and OFCOM and the Channel 4 documentary? Here&#8217;s a Newsnight investigation into the whole affair, one to watch if you argues against me at the time, for sure:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwCrzp_Mo2M" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwCrzp_Mo2M</a></p>
<p>OFCOM report is going to released into the situation soon. Look forward to debating it here on PP.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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