‘Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week’


by Sunny
23rd October, 2007 at 12:05 pm    

This started yesterday in the US. Ali Eteraz recently pointed out why it’s a farce:

An ex-senator that opposes individual rights of women; a pundit that calls people “faggots” and considers Islam a “cult”; a Christian scholar who is considered a “polemicist” and an “Islamophobe” by conservative Christians themselves; and an intellectual who has received millions from “far right” organizations since 2001, are rising up for the rights of women, gays, and religious minorities in the Muslim world. This laughable spectacle is called the Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.

In The Nation magazine, Barbara Ehrenreich makes the same point. But there is a broader problem here. As I said earlier this week the debate on identity, terrorism and Muslims is so stupid that if some dimwit sticks Islamo-fascism on anything these days they’ll get a whole horde of nutjobs supporting them. Horowitz, Coulter etc know this. Martin Amis knows this too because any response by supporters (and himself) to his stupidity has been along the lines of: “well he opposes terrorism and that’s what we oppose, and if you don’t support Amis then you support the terrorists!
Anyone can oppose terrorism, it’s how you do it that matters. I pity the fools with such simple brains.


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  1. ZinZin — on 23rd October, 2007 at 12:32 pm  

    A new title perhaps? Reactionary awareness week? Anybody?

  2. sahil — on 23rd October, 2007 at 12:34 pm  

    Why don’t they just call it lynch the Muzzies week and get it over with. Things really are getting absurd now. I’m just shocked.

  3. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 12:41 pm  

    Welcome to the zeitgeist.

  4. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:11 pm  

    Well, as someone says on HP, if the left aren’t going to speak out about reactionary and extremist Islam then the right will be left to do it.

    Many swayable young minds on campus, which is dominated by leftist double speak and may actually begin to think that there is no islamic terror, there is no Al-Qaeda, it’s all a construct of Bushitler and the ‘neo-cons’ and the well funded Zionist lobby….

  5. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:16 pm  
  6. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:20 pm  

    Shalin, I’m all against racism and pigeonholing people, but I’ll bet my bottom dollar that far more many attacks occur on Jewish students than Muslim ones. It’s absolutely the case in this country. I wonder why?

    Like I say if the left won’t speak out opposition to islamism then you ARE going to get a reactionary movement to it with far less brains.

  7. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:20 pm  

    j0nz, do you heart Martin Amis?

  8. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:24 pm  

    There are far too few Muslim voices condemning their own religion. Arms were discovered in Finsbury Park Mosque not Finsbury Park Methodist tabernacle. It is not a coincidence.

    In this country we have witnessed the slaughter of our own by a community .A community that campaigns for seperatism and blocks integration by any means it can . Its members seem unable to accept any criticism whatsoever and endless surveys show attitudes amongst its young especially are deluded as to the culpability of the community .

    Yet no Mosques have been burned and the most worying rise in racial attacks are by Muslims on Jews not by anyone else on Muslims . Noentheless the intolernace and injustice soi disant , suffered by Muslims here is the monotonous refrain to which we are perpetually treated .

    Here is my prescription for a fuller integration

    1 Stop whining
    2 Lighten up
    3 Let the girls have some fun…( and something less hideous to wear)
    4 Leave the gays alone
    5 Have a drink for god`s sake ..relax
    6 Buy a decent car
    7 Play some good music … what is that tortured cat stuff ?
    8 Be less useless at sport…couple of footballers and a rugby player and you laughing

    Muslims need to decide if they want to commit adultery and then get stoned or get stoned and then commit adultery. The latter is so much more likeable .

    No need to thank me , your love is reward enough.

  9. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:25 pm  

    Jonz, what do you think ppl on this blog do?? Do you think these are the only people that speak out against fanaticism in any form? Both Muslims and the Left do speak out against it, maybe you’re just selective about what you choose to see or listen to.

  10. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:26 pm  

    Oh here we go Newmania…do you want me to copy and paste what i said to you last time…what is with you people…i could shout as loud as i want but ppl like you will still go on and on about muslims not saying or doing enough…it’s a two way fucking street…

  11. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:27 pm  

    Newmania…what you want is assimilation not integration

  12. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:32 pm  

    Hitchens’ defense of the term is so lame that I’d lump him in the same category if I didn’t find him so irrelevant.

  13. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:32 pm  

    Newmania…what you want is assimilation not integration

    Damn straight.

    This is the modern age, the age of space flight, of computers, of nanotechnology. Leave the savage and barbaric medievalist nonsense behind, all of it.

  14. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:34 pm  

    Just relax Sofia, don’t take him that seriously…

  15. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:35 pm  

    Why don’t they just call it lynch the Muzzies week and get it over with. Things really are getting absurd now. I’m just shocked.

    There aren’t too many welsh anglican terrorists are there?

    There is only one religion nowadays on the rampage, killing and murdering all over the globe in the name of its holy book and its prophet.

    If Islam doesn’t get its house in order soon then it will be forced to get its house in order, Amis-style.

  16. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:36 pm  

    Who or What is “Islam”, Morgoth?

  17. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:36 pm  

    And stop nicking Ibn Warraq’s jokes.

  18. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:38 pm  

    There aren’t too many welsh anglican terrorists are there?

    What happened to those Cornish buggers?

    one religion nowadays on the rampage

    I didn’t realise a set of beliefs could go on a rampage.

    then it will be forced

    Who’s gonna do that? Amis is a dead-beat writer looking to sell more books. You think he’ll make it into policy recommendations? Keep dreaming Morgoth.

  19. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:38 pm  

    You mean all I need to do to be accepted by the net curtain twitchers is trade in my Datsun 120Y?

  20. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:39 pm  

    I pity the fool!

  21. ZinZin — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:39 pm  

    “There aren’t too many welsh anglican terrorists are there?”

    They burned my holiday home to a cinder those sheep shagging bastards!

  22. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:40 pm  

    Sid, mainly its deluded backwards brain-washed victims.

    Don, Ibn Warraq is a hero of mine.

  23. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:41 pm  

    Morgoth I think you’d be good in Horowitz and Ann Coulter. You talk just like them.

    “listen up Muzzies, I have your best interests at heart! I know whats good for you! Just give up your fake religion and everything will be alright. I’ll be your saviour”

    Yay!

  24. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:42 pm  

    Don, Ibn Warraq is a hero of mine.

    See, this is what happens when you spend all your time reading blogs. Can we have raise some money here to send Morgoth out of his house? To the local park maybe? Poor boy needs it…

  25. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:43 pm  

    Sunny, all it will take is another 9-11 or worse…

  26. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:43 pm  

    Actually, Sid, I despise Coulter. She’s just another stinking theist.

  27. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:44 pm  

    Sid, mainly its deluded backwards brain-washed victims.

    You need to be more specific than that. Who/What is this Islam thats “on the rampage, killing and murdering all over the globe in the name of its holy book and its prophet”? And what Amis-style measures are you looking to apply to these people all over the globe?

  28. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:46 pm  

    Morgoth..have you forgotten to take your pills today..you seem especially vile today

  29. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:46 pm  

    Newmania very amusing comment there… Sid not familiar with the chap.

    Sofia, I think that it’s easy to criticise those christian republican types and avoid the debate ‘islamofascism’ altogether.

    If I were a lefty, I would be blaming the failure of the left to outtright condemn muslim reactionaries and of course those muslim’s whom do act ‘fascist’ for want of a better term.

    Do you want the christian republicans saying it or the academics?

  30. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:49 pm  

    Well first of all Jonz I would take the term “Islamofascism” to task…i question all types of language being used by lazy media “gurus” as well as the racist right. If you want to talk about the use of religion to fuel fanaticism then that is another matter. Frankly I don’t care who is discussing it as everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether they’re a bunch of racist bigots, “sky fairy” worshippers, or “loony lefties”…

  31. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

    Morgoth if you insult us atheists one more time, I will blow you limb from limb in the name of not-believing-in-skyfairies…

  32. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

    Well, Sid, those that can be debrainwashed and who adopt rationalism and reality, I can no quarrels with. The rest, should be forcibly removed from this country. Islamic countries should be totally quarantined until such time as they wish to rejoin the rest of humanity in the modern age.

  33. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

    yes the debate is also stupid because people only look to see who’s speaking, and if they are “nutjobs” presumably mean that there isn’t any substance to the point at hand. the usual – lets see who’s saying what, rather than, what is being said.

    if we want that to not happen, by all means criticise the ‘nutjobs’ – and then go on to neutrally examine the point at hand.

  34. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:51 pm  

    “If Islam doesn’t get its house in order soon then it will be forced to get its house in order, Amis-style.”
    Oh that’s one of the funniest things i’ve read today…vile and idiotic all in one…

  35. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:52 pm  

    and can we please not be snide about people personally? comments like that – about Morgoth not leaving the house – aren’t really very grown up.

  36. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:52 pm  

    Morgoth..have you forgotten to take your pills today..you seem especially vile today

    Not vile, Sofia…just remembering all the lives snuffed out, all the people murdered by theists over the centuries in the name of their sky-fairies. It tends to put a downer on yer afternoon.

  37. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:55 pm  

    Sonia #35 agree totally it ruins the debate

  38. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:57 pm  

    It’s amusing engaging weird and nasty trolls like Morgoth, who’s earnest enough to think he’s being taken seriously by anyone.

  39. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:57 pm  

    Morgoth, people have been killed for many a reason..religion being used as one…you should try and be a bit more objective instead of making blanket comments..if you don’t like religion then that’s your right..i’ll leave you to it…

  40. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:57 pm  

    It doesn’t bother me much, Sonia, but thanks for your concern. I’ve come to expect it of Sunny and Sid mainly. If you stopped believing in junk, I’m sure you and I would get on like a house on fire (which is precisely my point).

  41. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 1:58 pm  

    “If Islam doesn’t get its house in order soon then it will be forced to get its house in order, Amis-style”.”

    “It is 1933 and I am Winston Churchill.”

    From ‘The Best of Morgoth’

  42. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:02 pm  

    Sofia, my point is that religion, the bastard offspring of collectivism, has a unique capability for murder and mayhem. I have seen repeatedly, with large numbers of family members how it lays waste to the human brain better than CJD could ever even hope to do.

    Sid, when was the last time anything you said was actually taken seriously…by anyone? You seem to be the resident foul-mouthed comic relief here. Like Dave Allen but…unlike Dave Allen, not actually funny in the slightest.

  43. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:04 pm  

    Well I haven’t yet claimed

    “It is 1973 and I am Dave Allen!”

  44. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:05 pm  

    I don’t have the brogue for it, Sid.

  45. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:08 pm  

    Churchill had a brogue?

  46. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:10 pm  

    He also had a talent for winding up idiots, which judging from your posts, Sid, I appear to share.

  47. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:14 pm  

    well morgoth i’m sorry your experience of religion has been so awful..I just wish you wouldn’t lump us all in the same group, whether you think my beliefs are justified or not…it just makes you a fascist of another kind.

  48. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:14 pm  

    isn’t that what a troll wants anyway?

  49. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:19 pm  

    it just makes you a fascist of another kind.

    So be it, Sofia. But my vision of the world, one where science and rationality and the betterment of the self would be the driving forces, and where thinkers, writers and doers are praised and put on pedestals instead of burned at the stake or their throats cut, would be a much more glorious one than the forthcoming theist-enforced dark age.

    And people would have their own hoverbikes, jetpacks and shiny-silver-all-in-one-bodysuits, as well.

    isn’t that what a troll wants anyway?

    The difference is, Sid, with you, its not hard.

  50. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:20 pm  

    I have to say that who thinks who is a ‘troll’ is relative – and in any case, in this instance, what Morgoth said was relevant to the point at hand, one may not like it, but it is generally an inflammatory/controversial topic, so all sorts of opinions could be considered ‘troll-like’.

    good point from Sofia, there is no point lumping anyone in one group, but perhaps Morgoth isnt’ necessarily doing that? he/she may be lumping all religions in one group though. the comment about religion and murder and mayhem -well that’s about religion isn’t it. and i personally think a fair point to make. ( and others are free to disagree and discuss accordingly) i dont know about other comments Morgoth may have made elsewhere – not my business or prob. – but given the context of this thread, i dont see why a comment about religion being murderous is troll-like.

    moving on: whilst many battles have been fought using religion as an excuse, and possibly shouldn’t have used religion as an excuse, how can we talk about say – the Battle of Badr – without bringing in religion?

  51. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:22 pm  

    If the Morgoth doesn’t get its house in order soon then it will be forced to get its house in order, PP-style

  52. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:26 pm  

    he/she may be lumping all religions in one group though. the comment about religion and murder and mayhem -well that’s about religion isn’t it.

    Sonia, indeed.

    My last point in this thread (I have little interest in debating the ins-and-outs of religious-motivated battles, I’ve done enough of that to last me a lifetime) is this: at this moment in time I perceive Islam to be the main threat to rationalism. As long-time observers of my comments know, I hate all right-hand path religions, and if I could click my fingers and get rid of all right-hand path religions tomorrow, I would. It makes no difference what sky fairy you believe, they’re all the same, whither they be called Yahweh, Jehovah or Allah. Its nothing personal, Sonia.

  53. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:28 pm  

    Watson’s science perhaps?

  54. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:31 pm  

    Watson’s science perhaps?

    I refer you to my comment on the Watson thread that even Sid was forced to agree with, Sofia.

    P.S. if you have time, check out The TalkOrigins.Org Supernovae, Supernova Remnants and Young-Earth Creationism FAQ – my little contribution in support of rationalism.

  55. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:31 pm  

    Sofia…just remembering all the lives snuffed out, all the people murdered by theists over the centuries in the name of their sky-fairies. It tends to put a downer on yer afternoon.

    Awww.. sorry to put a downer on ya afternoon Morgoth. But really, it hasn’t has it? Otherwise you wouldn’t be coming to this blog and posting here.

    Incidentally, when you’re talking about snuffed out lives, does that include IRaqis killed by American “shock and awe”.

    Just wondering you know. After all, we don’t want people to think you only care about white people’s lives now… would we?

  56. Sofia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:31 pm  

    well as i’ve said..i have great serenity from how i practice my religion…and morgoth ure being unrealistic…sonia..a religion can’t do anything…it is the ppl that follow it that misinterpret it…a set of ideas whether you think they are divinely inspired or not have no power without people, so he is talking about ppl as well. Anyway..i can’t be arsed with this topic..and frankly it hacks me off..i’ve got nothing more constructive to say, so i’d rather say nothing

  57. Kulvinder — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:34 pm  

    Many swayable young minds on campus, which is dominated by leftist double speak and may actually begin to think that there is no islamic terror, there is no Al-Qaeda, it’s all a construct of Bushitler and the ‘neo-cons’ and the well funded Zionist lobby….

    Not a construct; just an efficient instigator for recruitment. Its a bit like the Soviets debating why there wasn’t more condemnation of ‘Afghan terrorists’ or American jingoists calling for the condemnation of the oppresive Vietcong.

    It is a banal argument to criticise religious fundamentalists; the dangers of those movements as models for society are so obvious it simply doesn’t take that long to think about. Those of us on the airy-fairy sides aren’t ignoring the issue; its just the question

    ‘Do i think an oppresive theocracy is a good idea?’

    takes about half a second to consider and answer.

    Forgive me if i don’t hang around if it takes you longer to come up with ‘no’

    The impetus for those movements – what drives people to fight and kill us – is a far more grown-up question.

  58. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:36 pm  

    Its nothing personal, Sonia.

    Where does Sonia stand when you’re advocating “Islam” to get “forced to get its house in order, Amis-style”? Since you’ve failed to distinguish between individuals and extremism so spectacularly, Amis-style?

  59. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:39 pm  

    i mean – im sure i can look at the motives of that battle without religion being involved, ( greed, human rubbishness and insistence on fighting as a soluation) but the participants of that battle did bring in religion. ( well one lot anyway)

    and yes, i think if we are going to have a proper discussion, it would be useful to separate out – the historical situation – and religion today. Of course there is no reason – unless one is very orthodox- to adhere to how it was in the past. Religions don’t have to be fixed to a particular time or place – though they often are – and many proponents often resist modernisation, or the suggestion that modernising is needed! the reality of religion today is that many people embrace it for different reasons.

    but there is clearly – still – not much acknowledgement – on the part of many people – who are generally critical of other Empires and colonialism- about our own history of Empire, and how Islam spread. Some people are able to be honest and accept that history, and still look forward to practising their religion today – because it means something to them as an individual. which is something i can respect, and is not necessarily ‘dangerous’ at all. and its important to understand why people clearly feel they want to have religion in their lives. ( because if we don’t, it aint going to be very different from people not understanding why someone doesnt want to have God in their life)

    But- there’s a big problem of denial – of- the controversies and problems of the origins of Islam, and given that the Quran is supposed to be the word of God, and that some people have a very literalist understanding of how we interpret and apply it today. these problems for me – are very legalistic – and apply to islamic jurisprudence, and how it is applied. and coming from a Muslim country, how they affect the populace. these are very real concerns for me – as they are to do with governance, and application of laws – and in countries that generally have very poor human rights records.

    That is my concern, and as a female who grew up in muslim countries, and comes from a muslim country, and a muslim family, and therefore am subject to such laws – i would like it, if there could be discussion about all this, and the problems they can cause for people today – without having to fall in the middle of fist-fights.

  60. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:39 pm  

    Just wondering you know. After all, we don’t want people to think you only care about white people’s lives now… would we?>/i>

    Given how you were content for Iraqis to remain under the control of a genocidal dictator and his equally genocidal sons for another fifty years, do you give a fuck about other people’s lives, Sunny?

    And given how often (just about every single post) it is you who plays the race card, can we safely assume that it is you who are the race-obsessed saddo here? The plain facts of the matter are, Sunny, that without your self-aggrandising and self-consuming obsession with “race”, you would be nothing. You’re incapable of seeing anything except through the prism of skin colour. You’re just another professional race-baiter like Lee Jasper or Nick Griffin. And you’re as racist as both of them.

  61. Kulvinder — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:42 pm  

    Sofia, my point is that religion, the bastard offspring of collectivism, has a unique capability for murder and mayhem

    This is demonstrably false, religion hasn’t been the major cause of war or death for at least 200 years. I’m more than willing to accumulate the numbers of deaths caused by imperialism in the 19th century and nationalism in the 20th.

  62. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:44 pm  

    and can I say, ( obviously taking into consideration that the experience of individuals is necessarily going to be different) that the lot of Muslims in the “West”, and dealing with ‘minority issues’ as they are popularly termed – is going to be very different to the lot of Muslims – in Muslim majority countries, where religion for the most part, is very much tied up with authority. and where for the most part – muslims cannot officially change what religion they are assumed to be following -without big trouble.

    different contexts for different people.

  63. Kulvinder — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:44 pm  

    You’re incapable of seeing anything except through the prism of skin colour. You’re just another professional race-baiter like Lee Jasper or Nick Griffin. And you’re as racist as both of them.

    As long as you make sense.

  64. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:50 pm  

    I agree Sofia, that of course it is people who follow ‘religion’ – religion is just another ‘idea’at the end of the day. that’s why we would need to think about it in terms of the ‘real’ life situations of people today.

  65. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 2:51 pm  

    i daresay if one believes in God, it might be the case that one thinks its not just another human idea, but Truth. still, Truth or not, its still an idea in human heads, as far as i am concerned.

  66. Random Guy — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:05 pm  

    Like all good rationalists, Morgoth is actually mortally afraid of religion as a concept. And like all things that rationalists cannot comprehend (some of them are too thick after all), fear and ignorance lead to hate and intolerance. These in turn lead to the posturing and spite we can see from his comments. The truth is that Morgoth likes to hide behind his words and would not once back them up by any action. This is because he is in all likelihood a spineless coward. Still, he is funny to watch.

  67. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:11 pm  

    Au contraire, Random Guy, I’ve been there and done the whole religion thing. I survived it, unlike many people I knew and loved.

    And the hypocrisy of criticising rationalism for “lack of comphrehension” when if theists still had their way, they would have us believe that illness is caused by demons and that the sun went round the Earth. The very computer your typing on works because of rationalist principles, not because its filled with worker imps.

  68. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:22 pm  

    Sonia – What is it like being a Muslim woman…do you not yearn to get out of those unflattering garments ? Would you like help ?
    Do you read chick lit ( Does my bomb look big in this ?)…

    Topically , are you allowed to have an abortion ?I have to say it looks a raw deal from the outside. can Muslims have more than one wife ?

    OR…Do you think Englismen are too soft on their women. It does sometimes seem to me that they are less keen on milksop metrosexuals (like Sunny) than they claim to be.

    What happens to Muslim women that marry out ? You`d think they would want to , I recall Yasmin ‘Alibi’ brown…snaffled a white Englishman at the fist oppotunity . What do Muslims make of that ? Isn`t it having your cake and eating it .

    Just wondering

    * beam*

  69. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:25 pm  

    Sonia – What is it like being a Muslim woman…do you not yearn to get out of those unflattering garments ? Would you like help ?

    Actually, niqabs are extremely sexy and very erotic.

  70. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:30 pm  

    PS
    Has anyone ever ever read anything Martin Amis has written? He’s a marvellous writer …I `m just suggesting that the least interesting thing about him are some stray comments you might not like .This monomaniac fixation is awfully limiting isn’t it.

    Do you also shut down Hemingway, TS Elliot , Kipling ( obviously) and everyone else your minutely attuned antennae detect political crimes from.

    Its all a bit Dave Spart

  71. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:32 pm  

    I shall be sure not to wear a potato sack around you then Morgorth. Shudder

  72. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:38 pm  

    *grins* I should really do a post sometime on why veiling results in the hypersexualisation of society and why it encourages the very thing that it obstensibly (in the twisted minds of those who invented the concept) was designed to suppress.

  73. Random Guy — on 23rd October, 2007 at 3:58 pm  

    Morgot, #67, you lack intellectual flair. Contrasting rationalism and scientific discovery using your theoretical endpoint of theism? Is that what you people think? Rationalism equates to wisdom? So at the end of it , you just belong to another group that holds itself aloof and ‘enlightened’ and apart from the (religious) rabble. A bit like religion itself I suppose.

  74. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:10 pm  

    Morgoth may indeed by anti-religion, but I have yet to see evidence that he is a rationalist. His apparent belief that the fatuous LaVey is somehow worth citing inclines me to suspect otherwise.

    Right-hand path? That’s the kind of juvenile twaddle that give atheism a bad name.

  75. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:20 pm  

    He has replaced god worship with devil worship and calls it Rationalism. It’s also 1933 and he is Churchill.

  76. Rumbold — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:29 pm  

    Sonia’s comments on this thread should be compulsory reading. I also have to agree with her on this point:

    “I have to say that who thinks who is a ‘troll’ is relative – and in any case, in this instance, what Morgoth said was relevant to the point at hand, one may not like it, but it is generally an inflammatory/controversial topic, so all sorts of opinions could be considered ‘troll-like’.”

    Morgoth has been around long enough not to be considered a troll. I tend to disagree with him, but prefer him around as opposed to a sanitised Pickled Politics.

  77. Jai — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:34 pm  

    Post #68 is not only extremely presumptious about Sonia and Muslim women in general, it also crosses the line into excessive familiarity, particularly the end of the first paragraph in relation to her assumed attire. I wonder why Newmania thinks it is appropriate and acceptable to speak in that manner to women he has never met (particularly married women, in this case), and he should also consider how disturbing it would be for women to be on the receiving end of such remarks across the internet from anonymous men.

    Either way, he clearly doesn’t have a clue who he’s actually talking to here.

  78. Jai — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:35 pm  

    And he’s obviously unashamedly racist towards Muslims, if the entirety of that post is anything to go by.

  79. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:41 pm  

    How is Morgoth ‘racist towards’ muslims? Putting aside that islam is religion….

  80. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:41 pm  

    I agree with Wumbold. I find jousting with him to be quite relaxing but wonder whether the earth moves for the rest of you’s?

  81. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:42 pm  

    “him” being Goth breath.

  82. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:43 pm  

    and he should also consider how disturbing it would be for women to be on the receiving end of such remarks across the internet from anonymous men.

    As opposed to anonymous men rushing to “defend” the “honour” of anonymous women from what is blatently a humourous post? It sounds like it isn’t Newmania who needs a knee in gonads from Sonia, its you, you patronising sexist prig. Come on Jai, get your knob out for the gals!

  83. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:43 pm  

    Rationalism and Devil worship have a relationship. The perpetual over reacher of myth Prometheus, is related to the rebel angel and both suffer eternal torment. Faust is another archetype whose place hardly needs further explanation.Dr. Jeckyl unleashes the evil in him from his enquiry and ” Pacts ” with the devil , are common.
    Blake worshipped the devil in that he saw , in the figure the true fire and energy of the sacred , hesaid of Milton ” He is of the devil`s Party ” because the rebel is so much more attractive

    ” Better to reign In Hell than to serve in heaven”

    There is an interesting book called the bicameral mind about how religion and rebellion might have been bound up with the emergence of conciousness.

    So the tradition of the infernal and the enquiring being related are deep in our culture…obviously in the fall as well witht he devil present at the Tree of Knowledge.

    I think a lot of Westerners have sensed a lack of completeness about the Christian vision of man and have been impressed by Eastern attempts to reconcile the contradictions.

  84. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:44 pm  

    Lest this turn into some sort of spectator sport, I must admit, I find “jousting” with Sid quite amusing.

  85. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:46 pm  

    Oh course, the “Devil” as currently perceived in popular western culture, is a judeo-christian concept, and those theistic satanists who accept the concept of “Satan” are just that, theists.

  86. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:49 pm  

    I think a lot of Westerners have sensed a lack of completeness about the Christian vision of man and have been impressed by Eastern attempts to reconcile the contradictions.

    Don’t you mean a lack of completeness of the St James vision of man. There was nothing incomplete about Christ’s vision of man from their first principles and earliest sources, but rather only in modern re-interpretations thereof.

  87. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 4:58 pm  

    oops, I meant King James’ vision of man, but you know what i man…

  88. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:02 pm  

    The St James’ vision of man;

    http://www.nufc.premiumtv.co.uk/javaImages/10/78/0,,10278~227344,00.jpg

  89. Rumbold — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:03 pm  

    Ha ha ha Don.

  90. sonia — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:09 pm  

    *beams back* ah this thread is proving to be very amusing.

  91. Refresh — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:12 pm  

    I think we have strayed way off the topic, and we are back into dated arguments and propaganda.

    I thought the question under discussion was the ‘…. Awareness Week’, its implications, its purpose, those behind it and their motivation.

    How are all these organisations and people interconnected – and what do we do to counter it? Is it linked in with Blair’s latest statesmanlike intervention?

  92. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:14 pm  

    Keegan’s vision of man?

  93. Rumbold — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:16 pm  
  94. Jai — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:18 pm  

    *beams back* ah this thread is proving to be very amusing.

    Agreed. The sight of attention-seeking bigots with boundary issues and too much free time on their hands rushing to the defence of other prejudiced men is quite humorous.

    Whatever keeps the nerds off the streets, I guess.

  95. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:25 pm  

    Sofia@30

    Well first of all Jonz I would take the term “Islamofascism” to task…

    It is easiest to put names to things. I think that most people know which type of people are referred to as Islamofascists: not the ordinary, law-abiding Muslims who go about their daily lives, quietly getting on with their religion.

    No, it refers to the kind of Muslims who want this country governed by sharia law; the kind of Muslims who try to force their lifestyle on others; the kind of Muslims who carry out honour-killings; the kind of Muslims who protest in the streets of London calling for the beheading of cartoonists; the kind of Muslims who bomb Tube trains; the kind of Muslims who, to quote Kulvinder (@57) who do think that an “oppressive theocracy is a good idea.”

    “Islamofascist” is a far better term to describe these people than simply “Muslim”; it puts clear water between the first and second group (although there are shades of shallows between them).

    Morgoth@50: that is just spot-on! Lovely. Let me know if you fancy a spot at The Kitchen…

    Yours, reigning in hell and loving it,

    The Devil

  96. Rumbold — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    Er … Sonia commented at #50.

  97. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:31 pm  

    It is easiest to put names to things. I think that most people know which type of people are referred to as Islamofascists: not the ordinary, law-abiding Muslims who go about their daily lives, quietly getting on with their religion.

    Most people? Not some essential, culpable ideologues and not “most” if they have their way. Your definition is right. Now go explain that to Martin Amis, Christopher Hitchens, Mark Steyn and whatsisface Horowitz.

  98. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:34 pm  

    Sid,

    It isn’t really necessary: they have called it Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week. Whatever your views, or indeed Sunny’s view, on the perpetrators of this particualar festival, they are not stupid people.

    That is why they called it Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week and not Anti-Muslim Week. They know who they are referring too and, broadly speaking, so does everyone else.

    DK

  99. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:34 pm  

    P.S. Sorry, Morgoth @ 60. DK

  100. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:42 pm  

    DK: Tell us where the “Islamofacist” starts and the “Muslim” ends in this passage by Amis:

    There’s a definite urge – don’t you have it? – to say, ‘The Muslim community will have to suffer until it gets its house in order.’ What sort of suffering? Not letting them travel. Deportation – further down the road. Curtailing of freedoms. Strip-searching people who look like they’re from the Middle East or from Pakistan…

  101. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:45 pm  

    Cheers DK.

    I am but a pale clone of the marvellous DumbJon, my old mucker DSD, or even the PopinJays, alas.

  102. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:46 pm  

    I have the definite urge to beat the shit out of Martin McGuiness every time I see him on the telly, Sid. Am I the next Martin Amis then?

  103. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

    Sid. Am I the next Martin Amis then?

    No you’re one of Jeremy Clarkson’s skid marked pants.

  104. Rumbold — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:48 pm  

    I agree with Morgoth in #102 (without the foul language mind).

  105. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:51 pm  

    No you’re one of Jeremy Clarkson’s skid marked pants.

    In Sid’s world, I guess that’s a promotion.

    Admit it, Sid, you’re had the same atavistic primal urges as Amis. Its part of being human.

  106. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:51 pm  

    Sid,

    He is expressing an opinion; not one that I would necessarily agree with, but an opinion nevertheless. And, yes, I have shared that opinion in the past.

    But then, I share Morgoth’s attitude to religion and I especially dislike even some more moderate forms of Islam which is a religion utterly incompatible with my libertarianism and belief in equal rights (there are some equally unpleasant forms of other religions too, of course).

    Morgoth,

    Ah yes, fine bloggers all.

    DK

  107. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:55 pm  

    DK: Yes, and the opinion is: There is no difference between Muslims and Islamofacists.

    The fact is Muslims have been battling extremist forces within their communities before Martin Amis was a gleam in his antisemitic daddy’s eye. And now he’s an ideologue who you breathlessly emulate.

  108. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 5:56 pm  

    In Sid’s world, I guess that’s a promotion.

    No, that’s a put down. hahaha

  109. Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:00 pm  

    No, that’s a put down. hahaha

    Exactly. Its a promotion. A wonderful tagline to use for a blog. Thank you. Keep feeding me all this lovely material, old bean.

  110. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:02 pm  

    Sid,

    When I first started writing about such things, I too used the term Muslims when I meant Islamofascists. One lives and learns.

    However, there are those who fully believe that a large part of the Muslim community is either fully behind such Islamofascists, or at least in tacit agreement.

    The seeming reluctance of Muslim “community leaders” to condemn the assorted bombings and honour-killings, and the praise that some have had for “matyrs” in Israel, has led people to believe, not entirely unreasonably, that there is some sort of Islamic conspiracy by the whole Muslim community.

    The reason that I do not think that this is the case is that I don’t particularly believe in “communities”, in that I don’t believe that Bunglawaya (sp?) and others actually speak for all Muslims.

    However, I do find it immensely worrying the number of people who are willing to march around carrying banners saying things like, “We are all Hezbollah now”, etc.

    Every time that I see such demonstrations, I become a little uneasy.

    DK

  111. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:03 pm  

    you’re free to use all of it. there’s plenty where that came from…

  112. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:07 pm  

    DK: The opinion of Amis and his ideologue mates. Stick to contextualising that. We know perfectly well you’re willing to back up Amis’ lazy lack of discrimination between ordinary people and extremists.

    By the way, a lot of evil is being committed in the name of your “people”. How do generally react to demands for you to apologise to black, brown and Jewish people for the collective guilt of Nazis and Facists?

  113. Anas — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:11 pm  

    Man, PP’s comment threads have become fucking depressing lately. Who are all these idiots? Personally I think it’s a result of the putrid influence of the online sewer that is Harry’s Place.

  114. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:21 pm  

    DK: The opinion of Amis and his ideologue mates. Stick to contextualising that.

    I thought that I had made a decent stab at it. And I said that I do not necessarily agree with him. I was just pointing out that Islamo-Fascism Week seemed a perfectly reasonable name for it.

    It was you who said that I “breathlessly emulate” Amis with, I would point out, precisely no evidence whatsoever. Apart from anything else, I deplore his religious beliefs.

    For heaven’s sake, I thought that PP had adopted a policy of banning trolls.

    We know perfectly well you’re willing to back up Amis’ lazy lack of discrimination between ordinary people and extremists.

    Really? And how do you know this? What I said is that I have done so in the past — mostly through carelessness with language. I have, as I said, learned. Learning is, I find, a very useful thing to do: it leads to the advancement of civilisation, you see.

    By the way, a lot of evil is being committed in the name of your “people”.

    Oh, here we go. No, it isn’t. It is not being done in the name of “atheism”. The Nazis and Communists may have banned organised religion, for sure. However, this was because they wished the Party to be the substitute: people would worship the state and not gods.

    However, that is not the same as murdering people because they are of a different religion, or because they have broken one of your religion’s laws.

    Atheists tend (with a few exceptions) to be rather liberal people. Atheism is a pretty strong position and tends to be informed not only by a lack of believe in god but also by a deep and abiding loathing for forced collectivism; need I point out to you that forced collectivism was precisely what the Nazis and Communists desired?

    How do generally react to demands for you to apologise to black, brown and Jewish people for the collective guilt of Nazis and Facists?

    I would tell you to get stuffed. What “collective guilt of Nazis and Facists” [sic]? Am I a fascist? No.

    Am I a Nazi? No.

    Am I even a Communist? No.

    Or are you seriously attempting to argue that all atheists are Nazis and Facists [sic]? In a way, I hope that you are, Sid, because it will show everyone on here what a poisonous little man you are.

    DK

    You are calling me a Nazi and a fascist, Sid? And what possible basis could you have for calling me that?

  115. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:44 pm  

    DK,

    ‘… there are those who fully believe …’

    Of course there are. They are going to believe that because that is the information they have been presented with, because the huge amount of condemnatations are scarcely mentioned alongside a few advocates of theocracy.

    At the risk of being redundant, let me make it clear that I regard all religions in a negative light, that I regard abrahamic religions especially so, and that islam currently tops the list. That is a very different matter from seeing all moslems as a lethal horde at (or within) the gates.

    You talk of the ‘seeming’ reluctance to condemn extremism; that suggests that you have a limited connection with what is actually happening. You are reputed to be a smart guy, you must be aware of the interenal opposition to theocratic islam.

    There is a problem, religion cannot escape it’s part in that. However, those who pranced around declaring “We are all Hezbollah now”, were for the most part harmless and irrelevant prats.

  116. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:49 pm  

    When Sid said ‘your people’ I don’t think he meant atheists. I hope he didn’t.

  117. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:52 pm  

    You talk of the ’seeming’ reluctance to condemn extremism; that suggests that you have a limited connection with what is actually happening. You are reputed to be a smart guy, you must be aware of the interenal opposition to theocratic islam.

    I assume that there is some. Let’s be honest, I am a white, middle-class, public-school male who has been in white, middle-class Edinburgh for a decade. I know very few Muslims; all I can go by is the press reports.

    However, those who pranced around declaring “We are all Hezbollah now”, were for the most part harmless and irrelevant prats.

    Hmmm, if I had pranced around with a placard in the mid-80s saying, “We are all the IRA now”, would you write me off as a “harmless and irrelevent” prat?

    Or if I had pranced around after 7/7 with a placard saying “More Tube bombings now! We are all Ibrahim now!” would I have been harmless and irrelevent?

    The fact that I would never carry such a vile thing and would actively boycott any protest that involved such encouragement of terrorism is testament to the fact that I have a conscience and a will.

    Can people really be so stupid, so unthinking, so vile? I suppose they can. You have made me depressed now… ;-)

    DK

  118. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:55 pm  

    When Sid said ‘your people’ I don’t think he meant atheists. I hope he didn’t.

    Who else could he possibly have meant?

    I am not a Nazi or a fascist; as I stated, I am the very opposite: a “loony” libertarian, if you will.

    But just in case I have got the wrong end of the stick, I am sure that Sid will be more than happy to enlighten us as to what he meant by “your people”.

    DK

  119. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 6:56 pm  

    31% of UK Muslims surveyed recently said death is the appropriate punishment for leaving your religion. Wonderful isn’t it? I wonder why would they think that? What did Mohammed say?

    It’s pretty consistent these surveys of Muslim opinion, again 7% surveyed support Al-Qaeda which is consistent with previous surveys.

    It’s a minority though, so 69% believe it is wrong. Clearly far from all Muslims think such things.

    So. There IS a need for Islamo-fascism awareness week, surely. And clearly, Islamofacists are that – not Muslims.

  120. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:23 pm  

    j0nz,

    Quite.

    DK

  121. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:25 pm  

    ‘…all I can go by is the press reports.’ That’s a dissapointing admission, from someone touted as a pundit (not necessarily by yourself.)

    ‘Hmmm, if I had pranced around with a placard in the mid-80s saying, “We are all the IRA now”, would you write me off as a “harmless and irrelevent” prat?’

    Maybe you weren’t around, but there were plenty of cod-IRA supporters in the 80′s and, yeah, they were irrelevant prats.

  122. Don — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:27 pm  

    disappointing. typo.

  123. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:34 pm  

    DK:

    No amount of tu-quoquery will stand you in good stead. And by the way, all that faux-scandalised “How very dare you!!” in #117 for suggesting you should be made culpable for the crimes of Nazis, which is what EXACTLY you’re suggesting is applicable for Muslims because of Jihadism, is making you look a look just a little creepy and weird, (3rd party accounts of which remain unconfirmed, so far). So stop the wriggling and the stupidity.

    I’m still trying to understand, although in the grand scheme of things its probably unimportant, why Muslims should be made culpable collectively for the guilt of Islamic Extremists and why, as you’ve insinuated in #110, that that justifies Amis’ repugnant views about jailing people for looking like Pakistanis and Arabs or deporting muslims because they, as you’ve suggested, have not apologised for Islamic extremism.

  124. sahil — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:48 pm  

    DK:

    “all I can go by is the press reports.”

    Might not be a good idea right now. Something crazy about muslims is the press’s bread and butter nowadays even if its not true:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/859

  125. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 7:54 pm  

    Of course the crazier the story sahil, it seems, the more likely it is to be true these days!

    Like 31% saying death is the correct punishment for leaving your religion. I wish it was The Sun making it up the whole time…

  126. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:12 pm  

    In September 2007 The Telegraph newspaper reported that Hitwise, the online competitive intelligence service, said that:

    “website run by the far right British National Party is the most visited website of any UK political party, with more hits than all other parties put together, a survey has found.”

    yeah, well you know BNP extremists could include your granny j0nz. does she look Pakistani?

  127. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:15 pm  

    No amount of tu-quoquery will stand you in good stead.

    With whom exactly, and why should I care?

    And by the way, all that faux-scandalised “How very dare you!!” in #117 for suggesting you should be made culpable for the crimes of Nazis, which is what EXACTLY you’re suggesting is applicable for Muslims because of Jihadism, is making you look a look just a little creepy and weird, (3rd party accounts of which remain unconfirmed, so far). So stop the wriggling and the stupidity.

    There are, in fact, substantial differences between these two.

    First, there is the time factor: the Nazis were defeated and their leader killed some 62 years ago. You might as well ask me if I would apologise for slavery: no, I would not.

    Second, I was not advocating that all Muslims be held culpable for the Islamofascists. I was saying that it was a point of view held by some people and I conceded that both intellectual laziness and written carelessness had led me to (falsely) equate the two in the past.

    Third, there is not the same connecting thread between the Nazis and atheists as there is between “normal” Muslims and Jihadis. The latter pair share a religion and work off the same text, The Koran, although their interpretations differ substantially.

    The only thing that atheists share is a lack of belief in any gods: they may have a multiplicity of other beliefs.

    Fourth, what is worrying is a lack of condemnation of terrorist attacks. Now, bearing in mind the usual caveats about polls, let us remind ourselves of a 2006 Populus Poll.

    The Populus survey for The Times and ITV News has found that more than one in ten thinks that the men who carried out the London bombings of 7/7 should be regarded as “martyrs”. Sixteen per cent of British Muslims, equivalent to more than 150,000 adults, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right.

    These are sightly worrying statistics, wouldn’t you say? And I would say that they are backed up by some of the disgusting demonstrations that we have seen by Muslims — or were they all Jihadis? If they weren’t why were they associating with Jihadis and not condemning them? — in London over the last couple of years.

    I doubt that you would find a similar number of British people who think, for instance, that the Nazis were “martyrs” (apart from the Jihadis who would, I imagine, applaud the Holocaust as a jolly good start), or that the Nazis’ cause was just even if the methods were wrong.

    I’m still trying to understand, although in the grand scheme of things its probably unimportant, why Muslims should be made culpable collectively for the guilt of Islamic Extremists and why, as you’ve insinuated in #110, that that justifies Amis’ repugnant views about jailing people for looking like Pakistanis and Arabs or deporting muslims because they, as you’ve suggested, have not apologised for Islamic extremism.

    Well, hello Mr Strawman: I thought that we’d be seeing you!

    I have never said that Muslims in general should be made collectively culpable. Nor have I backed Amis’s views beyind saying that I can see why some people would think that it is justified; this does not mean that I do, do you see? It’s called “seeing all sides of the argument”.

    You asked me to contextualise his writing, so I made a cursory effort to do so despite the fact that you failed to provide a link to the full article. Or did you just want me to condemn it, rather than contextualise it? In which case, I suggest that you say what you mean.

    I will repeat, I am a libertarian: I do not believe in the detention or discrimination against those who have not committed a crime. Further, I regard our state as being at least as dangerous, repugnant and a threat to liberty as some of the Islamist loonies out there.

    Stop putting words in my mouth, Sid. I know that you think you are being very clever but, really, you are just making yourself look like a bit of a tit.

    DK

  128. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:26 pm  

    Who else could he possibly have meant?

    Sorry, a little late, but by “your people”, I meant people of european christian religio-ethnic stock and not, necessarily, “hostile, arrogant egotists bloated on their own self-worth” and certainly not atheists. I don’t know you or read your blog (nor do I intend to) so wouldn’t know what views you propagate.

    I’m not putting words in your mouth. I have much better things to do than argue the toss with a clever desseminator.

    To write this sentence:
    “The seeming reluctance of Muslim “community leaders” to condemn the assorted bombings and honour-killings, and the praise that some have had for “matyrs” in Israel, has led people to believe, not entirely unreasonably, that there is some sort of Islamic conspiracy by the whole Muslim community.”

    and then suggest that they are not your wholly your views but views of others’ you’re willing to contextualise without passing judgement is a clever technique, but not as opaque as you like to think it is.

  129. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:28 pm  

    P.S. Let me amplify: whilst I would like to see the so-called Muslim community leaders more swiftly and decisively condemning various Islamist atrocities across the world, I am not overly bothered.

    This is because I do not believe that the Muslim Council of Britain and other such organisations really speak for all Muslims; at the same time, I will not condemn all Muslims for the MCB’s lack of action because I do not believe that that MCB speak for all Muslims. Do you see?

    Were I a C of E Christian, I would feel absolutely nothing — beyond a vague irritation — that a Catholic spokesman condemned, because I would not be Catholic. Do you get that?

    In the same way, I do not endorse or condemn Amis particularly because he doesn’t speak for me and, right now, there are bigger fish to fry.

    There are nutters all around; that doesn’t mean that I have to take them seriously.

    DK

  130. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:34 pm  

    I don’t know you or read your blog (nor do I intend to) so wouldn’t know what views you propagate.

    Yes, you do: I stated them on here. I am an atheist libertarian.

    To write this sentence:

    “The seeming reluctance of Muslim “community leaders” to condemn the assorted bombings and honour-killings, and the praise that some have had for “matyrs” in Israel, has led people to believe, not entirely unreasonably, that there is some sort of Islamic conspiracy by the whole Muslim community.”

    and then suggest that they are not your wholly your views but views of others’ you’re willing to contextualise without passing judgement is a clever technique, but not as opaque as you like to think it is.

    What a pity, because I thought that they were the views of others. I read some hundred blogs a day and this was indeed the view of very many commenters at the time, and probably still is (some of my interests have shifted and some of the blogs have died).

    And there was a reluctance on the part of, for instance, the MCB to condemn the bombings; I thought that this was a bit off.

    However, as I said above, I understand that the MCB does not speak for all Muslims. The subsequent demonstrations against the Danish Mohammed cartoons and Israel’s retaliation to Hezbollah were far more worrying to me: they showed large numbers of people willing to carry placards saying such things as “we will bring the real 9/11″ and “we are all Hezbollah” and “behead the infidels”.

    I would never carry such placards: would you?

    DK

  131. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:35 pm  

    Sid, visiting the BNP website is not quite the same as murdering somebody because they changed their mind. And the BNP won 0.5% of the vote nationally in 2005.

  132. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:40 pm  

    j0nz, look to DK’s contextualisation of Amis on how people can hold vicious, repugnant views and are justified to do so because its simply “expressing an opinion”. If it’s good for them, it should be good for you, shouldn’t it?

  133. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:45 pm  

    … DK’s contextualisation of Amis on how people can hold vicious, repugnant views and are justified to do so because its simply “expressing an opinion”…

    Sid, do you not believe in free speech then? You know, I just want to know because there are a goodly number of governments throughout history that have been less than keen on free speech — Nazi Germany springs to mind, as do Communist Russia, China and Cuba, and Islamist Iran.

    I do like to know if I am dealing with nasty little authoritarians, you see…

    DK

  134. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:53 pm  

    haha! what? having trouble eating your own dog food?

  135. Devil's Kitchen — on 23rd October, 2007 at 8:59 pm  

    No, Sid, you are implying that Amis should not be allowed to express his opinion. That would be a curtailment of free speech. So, do you believe in free speech or not?

    Do you understand the difference between understanding why someone would hold an opinion, without actually holding that opinion yourself?

    You know, that old “I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it” thing. I may not agree with Amis, but I will fight to allow him to say it.

    You, quite obviously, do not agree. Which makes you an unpleasant little authoritarian. Do ya see how I worked that?

    DK

  136. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:05 pm  

    No, Sid, you are implying that Amis should not be allowed to express his opinion.

    Simply put – not I’m not. Don’t put words in my mouth, there’s a good devil.

    I’m suggesting that if Amis can be contextualised by you for holding the views such as repatriating Muslims, strip searching them, denying their rights etc and you “can see both sides of the argument” because he’s “expressing an opinion” then you can AND SHOULD do the same for Muslims who want to see apostates mudered because that too is an opinion.

    Do you think you can do that? All in the name of free speech, of course. Of are you going to turn all selective on us?

  137. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:11 pm  

    You, quite obviously, do not agree. Which makes you an unpleasant little authoritarian. Do ya see how I worked that?

    Sure I can. You’re simply working through your list of rigid, preconceived ideas opinions you hold of other people. It’s called an Amisism.

  138. Bleh/Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:14 pm  

    But Amis doesn’t hold those views, Sid, as you damn well know.

  139. Sid — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:15 pm  

    He does Morgoth, as you damn well know.

  140. newmania — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:57 pm  

    I think there is a problem with free speech in that all speech is useless and reduced to game unless it in some ways encourages an action. Why do we express political views of not to influence others . Orwell had no patience for those who thought words were no more than counters in a parlour game and if words properly used are directly linked to actions or world-views that assist actions I see no reason why words should be less prescribed , than actions , in principle . I can’t, off the top of my head, think of any words I would want to ban but it cannot be an absolute. How about Andrew Motion….goes in the bonfire for me .

    Sadly the only examples I can think of recently are Muslim preachers who I do not think should be allowed to preach genocide. There is also the traditional parameter of free speech in that some-one may directly cause physical harm by shouting ‘fire’ in a theatre , or the laws of libel which have some place as they protect the innocent from malicious untruths . This common law principle treats reputation as a form of property and we can see that unfettered free speech would be akin to unfettered free access to property. A horrifying thought .

    I think Martin Amis was , in common with Kieth Jarret , President of the National Black police Association supporting the use of profiling ,. There is uninteresting commentary on this by Shaun Bailey in the Standard tonight …in a different context of course . He makes the point that blacks are the ones who suffer from crime chiefly and they have to support the Police using their resources as best as they can . If we ar stopping and searching only so many then allowing the authorities to use their experience as to where they might best employ their resources is a necessity and if some people get a bit shirty about it then they have to grow up . Remember there were Muslims as well as everyone else on the tube and bus and there will be more the next time. No doubt there are sensitivities but they are frankly far down the list of immediate concerns. I find it hard to believe there are no Muslims who are capable of understanding this .

    Here is a good example then . The aggressive deployment of victims status may directly lead to murder. Should such attacks on life and limb be tolerated . Only up to a point .

    Reading back over DK`s points it does seem to me that he us making only a very modest point and not one as potentially hostile to the wider Islamic world as my view that not all speech can be tolerated just as not all actions can be . I `nm slightly confused by this

    “Atheists tend (with a few exceptions) to be rather liberal people. Atheism is a pretty strong position and tends to be informed not only by a lack of believe in god but also by a deep and abiding loathing for forced collectivism; need I point out to you that forced collectivism was precisely what the Nazis and Communists desired”

    The Communists , obviously , but to some extent the Nazis , in their ideology at least , were against religion and tended to atheism, perhaps these are the few exceptions but to me they seem surprisingly numerous. I am somewhat loathe to ascribe moral goods to atheism which may clearly imply philosophical beliefs in which to kill a man is as moral as not to.

    (English atheism has been assisted with Libertarian thinking I suppose)

  141. Bleh/Morgoth — on 23rd October, 2007 at 9:58 pm  

    He does Morgoth, as you damn well know.

    Are you a mind reader now?

  142. Sunny — on 23rd October, 2007 at 10:00 pm  

    Given how you were content for Iraqis to remain under the control of a genocidal dictator and his equally genocidal sons for

    Was I Morgoth? Or is putting up straw-men the only way you can have a discussion? I’d say that your neo-con buddies, who you are cheerleading were closer to Saddam Hussain than I have ever been.

    But this is what I mean by a stupid debate. People like you, simpletons, can only have a discussion by putting up straw-men.

    Anyway, enough of the trolls on this thread. This is not a blog for jousting thanks.

    Amis is a in-bred idiot who can’t tell his arse from his elbow. And it’s funny to see so-called libertarians and ‘rationalists’ and people apparently in favour of the enlightenment cheer-leading for mass internment. Which is perhaps why I stopped paying attention to Morgoth, DK etc a while back.

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