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Desmond Tutu no longer “anti-semitic”

Posted By Sunny On 19th October, 2007 @ 1:45 pm In Current affairs, Religion, United States | 92 Comments

[1] MuzzleWatch reports:

We had a back and forth with folks at the Jewish Telegraphic Agency about the false Tutu quote after they used it in a release. Well, these guys are good and went to the source, the Zionist Organization of America, [2] and finally put to bed this terrible smear against Tutu. … The extreme rightwing ZOA still insists Tutu is an anti-Semite.

This controversy erupted when the University of St Thomas, Minnesota declined an invitation to Tutu on the basis that some Jews may find his view offensive. They’ve now [3] reversed their decision. Good.

From [4] Tony Karon (a senior editor at Time.com):

The utterly charming thing about the Zionist Thought Police is their apparent inability to restrain themselves, even from the very excesses that will prove to be their own undoing. Having asked sane and rational people to believe that [5] Jimmy Carter is a Holocaust denier simply for pointing out the obvious about the apartheid regime Israel maintains in the occupied territories, the same crew now want us to believe that Archbishop Desmond Tutu is an anti-Semite.

Frankly, this case I think this case underlines precisely how absurd the policing of discussion about Israel in the U.S. has become. As a South African veteran of the liberation struggle, I can testify that there are few, if any, more decent, humane, courageous and morally unimpeachable individuals in the world than Bishop Tutu. Speaking truth to power is what he’s always done, both to the old regime in South Africa as much as to the new, when the latter has failed to live up to the standards it professes on AIDS, crime and other issues.

Instead, thanks to the atmosphere created by the right-wing nationalists of AIPAC and the ADL etc., many mainstream institutions would now prefer to shoot the messenger, if only to avoid incurring the wrath of those who have stripped the very term “anti-Semitic” of its meaning (by using it as a bludgeon in defense of behavior utterly abhorrent in the Jewish tradition as much as anything else), and as such, commit a great crime against Jews and Judaism.


92 Comments To "Desmond Tutu no longer “anti-semitic”"

#1 Comment By Morgoth On 19th October, 2007 @ 1:55 pm

Desmond Tutu may not be an anti-semite, but from his [6] track record, Tony Karon is at the very least, yet another irrational Israel-hater. But hey, that’s the left for you nowadays. Too busy with their tongues stuck up the arse of folks like Qawadiri. Orwell would be spinning in his grave at what “liberalism” has become.

#2 Comment By Sid On 19th October, 2007 @ 1:58 pm

This one, like Morgoth’s colostomy bag, is going to run and run. :-)

#3 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 2:35 pm

Morgoth,

Some innocent folk, following your link, will come to a site called CAMERA, which says that it is the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. Completely laudible and acceptable, at first blush.

I was quite impressed with all the corrections that they had dealt with. Then I noticed a couple of strange things. That the stories were exclusively aimed at bolstering a Pro Israel position and this:

CAMERA seeks fifteen passionately committed undergrads with excellent communication skills to organize pro-Israel events on campus. Earn $1000 and a trip to Israel in June.

This is their ‘home page’ where the nature of their propoganda efforts is perhaps a leetle bit clearer than on the link that you gave.

[7] http://www.camera.org/index.asp

It is ingenuous, to say the least, for them to say that their site is for accuracy in Middle East Reporting when it is nothing of the sort.

#4 Comment By Morgoth On 19th October, 2007 @ 2:45 pm

Douglas, shooting the messenger, are we?

#5 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 2:49 pm

Morgoth,

Just saying. It doesn’t seem to me to be an unbiased scource. You have to remember it was extreme right wing Zionists that first misquoted Desmond Tutu and stirred up this storm in a teacup. To the extent that they it’s OK to quote someone, even when they never said it.

I’d sup with a long spoon at that particular ’scource’.

#6 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 2:51 pm

Or ’source’, even. At least when I can’t spell I’m consistent :-)

#7 Comment By Morgoth On 19th October, 2007 @ 2:54 pm

Douglas, you’re exhibiting the same behaviour as Red Ken, who started ranting about “Its an Israeli website, its an Israeli website”, when MEMRI exposed what his chum Qawadiri was saying.

#8 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:02 pm

Morgoth,

I am not trumpeting anything of the sort. I am simply pointing out the nature of the site you linked to. Caveat emptor, and all that.

We really could do with a weekend open thread, don’t you think?

#9 Comment By Sunny On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:09 pm

That Camera page is irrelevant to the issue at hand - the despicable attempts to paint Desmond Tutu as an anti-semite.

Douglas, shooting the messenger, are we?

You seem to be trying to do the same, surely? Why not deal with the topic? Or is it one rule for others and another for you?

#10 Comment By Morgoth On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:31 pm

The topic is, Sunny, that Karon is a gobshite-talking moonbat of the highest degree.

#11 Comment By Refresh On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:34 pm

Morgoth

I, at least, treat your posts with the respect they deserve - but please do not insult my intelligence telling me MEMRI is not part of the drip drip propaganda infrastructure.

#12 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:43 pm

Morgoth,

I agree with Sunny that he didn’t put the post up for it to deflected into this stuff, but in best playground terms, you started it.

I have only this article to go by,

[8] http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/

but, if that makes him a gobshite-talking moonbat of the highest degree, you’d really need to explain a bit better what was wrong with the piece. Personally, I thought it was excellent, but there you go.

Have you spent years researching this chaps commentary to arrive at your conclusion?

One could say that someone obsessed with Anton LaVey and Alastair Crowley has a bit of expertise in gobshite talking moonbats of the highest degree, and there I’d be happy to defer to you.

#13 Comment By Sunny On 19th October, 2007 @ 3:47 pm

The topic is, Sunny, that Karon is a gobshite-talking moonbat of the highest degree.

Yeah, I’m really taking your incisive analysis seriously here. Uhuh… yeah… carry on… I’m listening!

#14 Comment By Morgoth On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:12 pm

Refresh, MEMRI simply reports on what is said in the Middle-Eastern Media. If you consider that to be propaganda, then that’s your problem.

Sunny, you’re deluded. Fortunately, in 20 years time you’ll grow up and move to the right.

#15 Comment By Sid On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:15 pm

In 20 years time you’ll be rehabilitated and Harry’s Place will publish a blog post: “Morgoth no longer Islamophobic”

#16 Comment By ZinZin On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:17 pm

Haha
Good one Sid.

#17 Comment By El Cid On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:34 pm

Ha, give people enough rope…

The anti-semitism card has long lost a lot of its political power through overuse.
Trigger happy paranoia and a desperate strategy.
Handle with care.
There could be parallels…

#18 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:38 pm

Morgoth @ 14,

And maybe you’ll have realised that ‘news’ sources that can offer holidays and dollars to the committed is not exactly independent. Follow the money young man! That’s my advice to you.

‘Course, you could always seek out a career with the propogandists, MEMRI springs to mind for some reason I can’t quite put my finger on.

YOu could always put on your CV that you argued that black was white (oops!) on PP. That should stand you in good stead.

#19 Comment By Refresh On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:43 pm

“Refresh, MEMRI simply reports on what is said in the Middle-Eastern Media. If you consider that to be propaganda, then that’s your problem.”

I am afraid its your problem too. It ill-informs you.

And its been long said that MEMRIs constant stream of press releases landing in every journalist’s inbox gives lazy journalist all they need to become a reporter covering the middle-east. Do it long enough you become the mid-east expert.

You should be asking yourself why MEMRI is so busy selectively translating the mid-east media, and offering it for free.

#20 Comment By Refresh On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:46 pm

In 20 years time Harry’s Place will have its own undeclared nuclear arsenal.

#21 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 4:55 pm

Refresh,

In twenty years time Harrys’ Place groupiscules will be down to single numbers, each with the true path. It might even shine, a bit. There might be what, oh I don’t know, hundreds of them all arguing with each other. It is becoming an increasingly private grief.

Sad, really.

#22 Comment By Refresh On 19th October, 2007 @ 6:13 pm

Very sad. But who will have his finger on the button, that is what I want to know. Morgoth is obviously fighting for the privilege.

#23 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 6:17 pm

Refresh,

Hah! By that time PP will have the Death Star ;-)

#24 Comment By douglas clark On 19th October, 2007 @ 6:20 pm

And, more worryingly, who’ll have their finger on that trigger? Let’s hope it’s Sunnys’ barber.

#25 Comment By Rumbold On 19th October, 2007 @ 7:14 pm

Desmond Tutu is not an anti-semite, and has never been. He is a great man.

Tony Karon on the other hand… (you can always tell Israeli-haters by the use of apartheid).

#26 Comment By Refresh On 19th October, 2007 @ 7:32 pm

Rumbold, I am afraid you will then also have to include the former Israeli Education Minister:

“Indeed there is Apartheid in Israel

A new order issued by the GOC Central command bans the conveyance of
Palestinians in Israeli vehicles. Such a blatant violation of the right
to travel joins the long list of humans rights violations carried out by
Israel in the [Occupied] Territories.”

by Shulamit Aloni

from Karon’s blog (follow Sunny’s link) and as always, checked my sources too and confirm its from the Israeli Yedniot site.

#27 Comment By Sunny On 19th October, 2007 @ 11:53 pm

I’m not sure why my readers are obsessed with Harry’s Place, and frankly there’s no need for the silly characterisations. I still like that blog and get on well with David T. At least it’s not bloody Lenin’s Tomb and his displaying of Hizballah / Hamas flags. HP gave this blog its early prominence and for that they’ll always be comrades. All this sniping sounds terribly like this ‘moonbat’ rubbish that the likes of Morgoth keeps coming out with. There’s no need for us to fall to that level, or indeed of the terribly snipy language on blogs like Devil’s Kitchen / Drink Soaked Trots for War etc.

#28 Comment By Bartholomew On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:40 am

It should be remembered that Tutu has always been a hate-figure on the right - Jerry Falwell famously called him a “phony”, and when he came to the UK in 1989 the Freedom Association brought over a couple of black clergy to oppose him (namely Bishop Isaac Mokoena and Archbishop Mzilikazi Masiya, who have now slipped into deserved obscurity).

#29 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:15 am

Sunny,

Just for the record, I too think very highly of David T. I’m not sure if he’s changed his position on Iraq, a la Geras, or not, but he has always struck me as a genuine human being. It was Harry’s Place that introduced me, and many like me, to UK blog sites, and I was one of the people that followed up on David T’s recommendation that PP was a site worth checking out. He is a generous and witty guy.

#30 Comment By bikhair aka taqiyyah On 20th October, 2007 @ 6:24 am

What do they say about anti semites these days… Its not one who doesnt like Jews, its one who Jews dont like.

#31 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 8:24 am

bikhair aka taqiyyah ,

I do not know for sure if David T is a Jew or not, ’cause from my point of view, it is entirely irrelevant, and not worth a lot of effort to establish. Hopefully, from Davis T’s perspective, the fact that I am an atheist wouldn’t phase him either.

Antway, could we please give up this idea that everyone, of every race, is a stereotype?

Folk are folk. Every society has it’s genius’s and it’s psychopaths, as far as I know. Every society has it’s dictators and it’s democrats.

It seems to me that we are fighting a shadow war, where media and the like, tell us who to hate, who to despise. I am not going to play that game.

#32 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 8:30 am

Typo alert!

An antway is an interesting concept, like a motorway, though perhaps a bit smaller. Anyway.

#33 Comment By bikhair aka taqiyyah On 20th October, 2007 @ 8:49 am

Doug,

Who the hell cares what David T is?

#34 Comment By Refresh On 20th October, 2007 @ 8:59 am

“HP gave this blog its early prominence and for that they’ll always be comrades.”

This sounds so much like Marlon Brando doing his ‘I could have been a contender speech’, in Waterfront.

I’ve always been puzzled by PP’s peculiar stand on some things, on here and on CiF. Perhaps PP has had two masters for too long. PP readers on PP, and HP readers on CiF.

I too like David T but would not give his friends houseroom.

For me it was Nick Cohen in the Observer suggesting PP had ’sharp writers’. To be honest, at the time it was particularly patchy, and seems to have been improving just lately.

#35 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 9:07 am

bikhair aka taqiyyah,

Well, I was somewhat fooled by this:

What do they say about anti semites these days… Its not one who doesnt like Jews, its one who Jews dont like.

Given that we’d just been discussing David T, I thought there was a grain of truth in what you said, but that it certainly didn’t apply to David T.

I apologise if I read you wrong.

#36 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 9:12 am

Refresh,

Can you point me to a better site? I’d love to know. Not DK though, been there, puked.

#37 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 9:26 am

Refresh @ 34,

Para 4.

With the exception of Brownie, I agree.

This is becoming sterile.

We write and read perhaps the best hope for the future, right here, right now.

Is optimism to be banned?

#38 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:12 am

None of us, unless we are personally acquainted with him, know whether or not Desmond Tutu is antisemitic, but as he an Archbishop of the Anglican Church, he must, by definition, be so to a degree. Surely his job description, as a scion of a proselytizing religion means he must be anti everything but Christianity, and probably everything that isn’t Anglican Christianity to boot.

As for AIPAC et al, they are doing exactly what other similar ‘faith’ organisations, and lobby groups in general do. Put their own spin on things.

They’ve been doing it for a long time, but don’t worry, the other interest groups are catching up fast :-)

#39 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:16 am

Its not one who doesnt like Jews, its one who Jews dont like.

Oh, really. And does the same go for Islamophobia, Bikhair? And do you really think there’s a grain of truth in that, Douglas? I guess the Parliamentary report that identified a steady rise in antisemitism and attacks on Jews in the UK just made it up, did it? Or perhaps they’re in the pay of that powerful, powerful Jewish lobby that Tutu referred to in his speech in Boston? I don’t care how great a man Tutu has been in other respects, that was fucking offensive and he of all people should have known better than to say it.

Nice site this has turned into, Sunny. A blog where every thread ends up slagging off Harry’s Place and where it’s open season on the Jews as long as you can dress it up as criticism of Israel. Congratulations.

#40 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:23 am

Chairwoman,

Oh, come off it. On that basis, he must be against every other religion on the planet! So he is anti Muslim, anti Jain, anti, etc, etc.

It is wrong to play the game of assuming that he is antisemitic on that basis, is it not?. Where is all this inter-faith dialogue I keep hearing about?

All you faith based folk believe in a similar sky fairy. What’s not to like about Desmond Tutu?

:-)

Good to see you back, you controversialist, you!

#41 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:36 am

Douglas

Exactly! That is by its very nature what Christianity stands for. Christianity, BTW, not the teachings of Christ, two very different animals.

Actually the thing I remember Desmond Tutu for is wearing a T shirt that said ‘Just call me Arch’.

#42 Comment By Refresh On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:51 am

Great to see the team back. Hi Katy and Chairwoman.

Douglas, I am still optimistic about PP. It is the only blog site I give my advertsing custom to.

Its got places to go - somehow its got to shed HP. PP can stand on its own two feet.

Perhaps Sunny needs to pick a fight with them somehow.

#43 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 10:52 am

Katy,

And do you really think there’s a grain of truth in that, Douglas?

Er, yes. In fact, I do. I do think that Jews, when they are losing an arguement, pull out the religious red card. It is not pretty, and it is not clever.
It is what religious folk do. Feel free to join the ranks of other religions that pull a similar trick.

I am not aware of the speech that you claim he made, could you perhaps provide a link? As far as I can see, right wing Zionists lied about what he had said, to the extent that they made up quotes. You, Katy might find that acceptable, I do not.

BTW, your lot must be the first people in history to see being acknowleged as powerful as an insult. Although I’d like you to prove that that was ever said.

You were the one that walked away from here in a huff, if I remember correctly. And as far as I remember it had bugger all to do with your faith.

I am on record as saying that both Brownie and David T are good blokes, what more do you want of me.? Frankly, I’d assume they are both Jews, but I really don’t know or care. Have you got that? I think you have an incredibly forensic brain, what more do you want of me?

And frankly, Katy, I couldn’t care less about what your religion is, I’d tell what I see as true, anyway.

#44 Comment By ZinZin On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:13 am

Katy, Sunny can’t you two kiss and make up, I hate to think that you two have fallen out.

#45 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:15 am

Douglas - it’s in the Tony Karon site that YOU linked to. Call me crazy, but I assumed that as YOU’D referred to it YOU had read it:

[9] http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/

Karon quotes the Boston speech of Tutu thus:

“People are scared in this country [the U.S.] to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful – very powerful. Well, so what? This is God’s world. For goodness sake, this is God’s world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosovic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

I assume you’re not going to suggest that Karon is misquoting Tutu here?

#46 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:18 am

And perhaps you can see why it looks as if this “Jewish lobby” that Tutu’s pulled out of the ether is being compared to Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic and Idi Amin?

But no, you’re right, why would Jews find that offensive? We know exactly how vile and manipulative we are because that’s what we keep being told, all the time.

#47 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:18 am

Anyway, I am deeply offended that someone who writes for the Devil, has the right to come on here and say what you said.

Nice site this has turned into, Sunny. A blog where every thread ends up slagging off Harry’s Place and where it’s open season on the Jews as long as you can dress it up as criticism of Israel. Congratulations.

Firstly, it is not true that every thread ends up slagging Harrys Place. That is an out and out lie.

It is also not at all true that it’s open season on Jews. (Y’know what Katy, I nearly gagged writing that, but you seem to be able to say it without any sort of inhibition). Point me to it.

#48 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:24 am

Oh, change the record, Douglas. If Sunny wants to ban me I’m sure he will but I don’t think I’ve done anything to warrant it, nor do I think - if he did decide to - that my writing for the Devil’s Kitchen would have anything to do with it. You can see from the above that Tutu did in fact refer to the Jewish lobby. Have you got anything to say to that or not?

#49 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:25 am

Y’know what Katy, I nearly gagged writing that

I nearly gagged at Bikhair’s glib little dismissal of antisemitism, but you seemed able to agree to it without any inhibition. I also nearly gagged at your use of “your lot” and “I think Jews pull out the religious card” as if what one Jew does means that all Jews do it. Don’t you see how you sound?

#50 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:30 am

Katy at 45,

What the fuck, (fuck just to make you feel you are in your new home), are you on about?
You quoted Desmond Tutu thus:

“My heart aches. I say, why are our memories so short? Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

“Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won’t let ambulances reach the injured.

“The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

“Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or – and I hope this will be the road taken – to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

“We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. South Africa is a beacon of hope for the rest of the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land.”

Is that it? That is supposed to be anti semitic? Get a grip Katy.

#51 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:34 am

*sigh*

The paragraph that I quoted is further down the page on the same post, Douglas. Read the whole thing. I don’t make these things up.

#52 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:37 am

Just for the record, Douglas, I stopped posting here because I didn’t have time. If you can bring yourself to look at the Kitchen you’ll see that I post there very rarely. I don’t know if you think it’s clever to keep whingeing about the fact that I write for Devil’s Kitchen or about the fact that DK uses strong language, but I promise you: it isn’t. It’s pathetic.

#53 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:39 am

Why am I offended by being called powerful? Because it palpably isn’t true.

If we, as a people, had always had the power we are credited with, then we would not have seen 6,000,000 of us exterminated by Hitler’s regime, and Israel would not be constantly on a war footing, because everything would have gone her way.

Sure, there are some powerful Jews, but they are only powerful in the way that every other powerful person is, either money and/or influence.

Let us take the ‘powerful’ Lord Levy as an example. How powerful was he? Certainly he had the ear of the Prime Minister, but the honours he was accused of giving were not within his power to give, only within the Prime Minister’s. Yet he was the one who was vilified and accused. It was only when he threatened to spill the beans that somebody called the dogs off.

Is that the sort of power you mean?

Or is it a man like Philip Green who has the power to put on ostentatious parties in the South of France, and to sell many clothes?

Do you really believe those old canards that the USA regularly goes to war at Israel’s behest? Can someone tell me what advantage there is to to Israel for American and British soldiers to be in Iraq.

I may be out of practice at this, but frankly, words fail me!

#54 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:42 am

Katy @ 48,

No, you change the record. What you said was untrue and scurrilous. I am the guy that argues that, it doesn’t matter who you are, or where you come from, your opinion is OK. That applies to Jews, too. Now watch you make a mountain out of that.

And I’d certainly not want to see you banned. That would be ridiculous.

#55 Comment By Chris Stiles On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:46 am

None of us, unless we are personally acquainted with him, know whether or not Desmond Tutu is antisemitic, but as he an Archbishop of the Anglican Church, he must, by definition, be so to a degree. Surely his job description, as a scion of a proselytizing religion means he must be anti everything but Christianity

When someone says that they believe that something is true - then they are implicitly claiming that every competing assertion is false.

There might be an aim to persuade - but there is no implicit threat to kill, irradicate, wipe out, etc.
Extend this to sport, politics or advertising and see how ludicrous it sounds.

#56 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:50 am

Chris Stiles

I do not for one instant think that every antisemite intends to kill, irradicate or wipe Jews out. That does not stop them being antisemitic.

#57 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:52 am

Douglas, you were the one who talked about “Jews doing this” and “your lot doing that”. If you had said “some Jews play the religion card” I’d have agreed with you, because some Jews do, just like some Muslims do, and some Hindus do, and so on and so on. But all Jews don’t. And I find it offensive that Bikhair would imply that antisemitism is all in the Jewish mind, and that you would agree with her.

I am astonished that a man like Desmond Tutu would refer to the “Jewish lobby”. I don’t believe that he is an antisemite in the sense of wanting Jews dead or deported or exterminated, but I do think that he should know better than to talk about the “Jewish lobby”, unless of course he wants people to feel that it’s all right to believe that Jews run the world because Desmond Tutu said they did.

You obviously feel I’m playing the religion card. I’m not. This is a post about antisemitism, isn’t it? I didn’t say anything at all until Bikhair’s crack about antisemitism just being when Jews don’t like someone, and the reason I commented then is because I found it offensive and I found it offensive that you would agree with her. And not a single person on this thread apart from me has actually bothered to point out that whilst some Jews may play the religion card, that doesn’t mean that antisemitism doesn’t exist and isn’t on the rise. So you tell me what I’ve said that was “scurrilous” and “untrue”.

#58 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:54 am

Katy,

OK, keys? As in, lets stop hitting each other.

I do not like or admire the DK method of communication. I think it stinks, but there you go, that is just my opinion.

I do think you have an incredibly good brain, and that walking away in a huff was frankly a huge loss for this web site. I do not think that coming back and accusing us of being new born anti semites is realistic, useful, or true.

Katy, you used to write some great stuff on here. I’d rather you rejoined the club than retreated into some South African laager.

#59 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:57 am

I do not think that coming back and accusing us of being new born anti semites is realistic, useful, or true

Do you really not understand why I found Bikhair’s comment offensive, Douglas? I mean, do you really not see that saying that antisemitism is when Jews don’t like someone is offensive?

#60 Comment By Rumbold On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:59 am

Katy:

“And not a single person on this thread apart from me has actually bothered to point out that whilst some Jews may play the religion card, that doesn’t mean that antisemitism doesn’t exist and isn’t on the rise.”

I agree with you Katy. Just because not everybody labelled an anti-semite is an anti-semite does not mean that there aren’t any. I agree with Douglas about Tutu though. Obviously the man does not like Israel, but I do not think that makes him anti-semitic per se.

#61 Comment By Chris Stiles On 20th October, 2007 @ 11:59 am

I do not for one instant think that every antisemite intends to kill, irradicate or wipe Jews out. That does not stop them being antisemitic

But your claim is somewhat more specific than that - that anyone who feels that Jewish religious beliefs are wrong and prosletytizes along those lines is an anti-semite. Do you think Daniel Dennett as a proselytizing atheist is an anti-semite? What does ‘anti-semite’ actually mean in this context?

#62 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:14 pm

Katy @ 57,

Would it have been better if I had not replied whatsoever to bikhair aka taqiyyah at post 30? My point to him, and honestly, my point to you, is clear cut. I don’t give a fuck about folks religions - see post 31 - and I’d expect that to be reciprocated?

OK, here it is again:

I do not know for sure if David T is a Jew or not, ’cause from my point of view, it is entirely irrelevant, and not worth a lot of effort to establish. Hopefully, from Davis T’s perspective, the fact that I am an atheist wouldn’t phase him either.

Antway, could we please give up this idea that everyone, of every race, is a stereotype?

Folk are folk. Every society has it’s genius’s and it’s psychopaths, as far as I know. Every society has it’s dictators and it’s democrats.

It seems to me that we are fighting a shadow war, where media and the like, tell us who to hate, who to despise. I am not going to play that game.

That is where I am coming from. And I quite admire most of the Jews I’ve met, so there.

#63 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:16 pm

Katy you said above:

“I am astonished that a man like Desmond Tutu would refer to the “Jewish lobby”.”

Well AIPAC itself considers itself a lobby and says that it is “Consistently ranked as the most influential foreign policy lobbying organization on Capitol Hill”:

[10] http://www.aipac.org/Publications/PressAIPACStatements/AIPAC_Working_closely_5-10-04.pdf

I understand why you’d be pissed off with this entire “Jews are trying to take over the world” Nazi crap, but to argue that there are no Jewish lobby groups in US politics is nonsense. Does that mean all Jews agree with AIPAC, absolutely not. What i find bizarre about this is that you would think AIPAC representing Jewish opinion on capitol hill is ok. These guys are hard right nationalists, they are not simply trying to protect Israel’s right to exist, they are trying to take forward their own extreme world-view of Israel not liberal Jewish opinion.

“I find it offensive that Bikhair would imply that antisemitism is all in the Jewish mind, and that you would agree with her.”

I know you referred this to Douglas and he can speak for himself, but then to also say:

“A blog where every thread ends up slagging off Harry’s Place and where it’s open season on the Jews as long as you can dress it up as criticism of Israel.”

is just as much out of line. I know anti-semitic attacks are up, the criminal acts have been recorded and are a worrying trend that needs to be addressed. But to say ALL people who read a blog like PP as endorsing anti-semitic views is nuts, and pisses off people who have a lot of time to understand Israel’s security concerns and the very real danger it faces.

#64 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:43 pm

Sahil,

Och, this is getting silly. If you say you don’t think the existing policy of Israel in relation to Palestinians, is precisely right, then you are immediately labelled an anti semite.

Pish!

Now, it seems, if you think Harry’s Place is up it’s arse on liberal interventionism, without having a scooby about the definition or the justification, you are also an anti semite.

This is not debate, this is nonsense.

#65 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:47 pm

That’s exactly what I mean! Why do you say that AIPAC is a Jewish interest lobby? They aren’t. They are an Israel lobby working from an American base. They don’t even speak for American Jews, let alone Jews worldwide. And I haven’t once said that I consider it acceptable or ok for them to represent Jewish interests. Where do you get that? It seems to me that people generally conflate Israel and Judaism when it suits them but then separate them when it suits them as well - as for example when it’s suggested that to speak of a Jewish lobby is to repeat an age-old antisemitic slur.

As for what I said about open season on the Jews, I’m sorry you feel offended by it, but I have been made to feel very uncomfortable by what has been said on this thread and I still don’t see anyone apart from Rumbold agreeing that what Bikhair said was wrong. I know that you were trying to smooth things over but you yourself have fallen into the trap of confusing Jewish interests and the Israel lobby, which is exactly what everyone tells me I’m doing on virtually every thread on this subject.

Finally, given that Sunny himself has commented on the fact that his readers seem to be obsessed with HP I’m not sure why what I said is considered to be so utterly slanderous.

#66 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:50 pm

Och, this is getting silly. If you say you don’t think the existing policy of Israel in relation to Palestinians, is precisely right, then you are immediately labelled an anti semite.

I hope that’s not directed at me, Douglas, and if it is I look forward to any links you can provide in support of it. I’ve never said anything of the kind and you know it.

#67 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 12:57 pm

And I quite admire most of the Jews I’ve met, so there.

I imagine some of your best friends are Jews.

#68 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:03 pm

“I know that you were trying to smooth things over but you yourself have fallen into the trap of confusing Jewish interests and the Israel lobby, which is exactly what everyone tells me I’m doing on virtually every thread on this subject.”

I just looked at my post and yes I did mix the two up and I am sorry because that was certainly not my intention. However you should be able to see that AIPAC itself conflates Jewishness with only their narrow viewpoint concerning Israel. They are themselves trying to confuse their arguments with Jewish opinion, to stop any criticism of their viewpoints in the US by labelling anyone holding another viewpoint as either anti-semitic or a self-hating Jew.

As for it being open season on Jews, let me say as a reader of PP, I do not agree with what Bikhair said and think it is at best “out of line”, as I implied by being aware of rises in Anti-Semitic attacks that have been recorded and on the rise.

As for HP well I’m not a reader for a variety of reasons, but I was not even aware that the lead writers may be Jewish. I really don’t care, I’ll read the writer’s arguments on their own merits and tell them to piss off if I disagree, and happily congratulate them if I believe they have written a good article. A case in point, the support for Iraqi government workers who have been left to the devices of death squads is something I completely agree with HP. Their continued support for liberal interventionism is something I completely disagree with.

#69 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:04 pm

AIPAC represents a facet of Jewish opinion on Capitol Hill. Other facets are represented in other ways all over the USA. And it’s as OK for them to push their agenda as it is for any other pressure group, and is probably no more effectual, despite received wisdom, than any other.

As for the Archbishop, it ill behoves him to talk about Israel’s short memory. Jewish South Africans were extremely active in the anti apartheid movement. I myself had relatives forced to leave SA because of their anti apartheid politics, and the movement then was happy enough to take Jewish money.

Unfortunately everybody has short memories, and I think this is definately a case of two kitchen utensils accusing the other of being a different colour.

#70 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:05 pm

OK, Katy,

I take it you meant CAMERA? ‘Cause, as far as I know, I’ve said nothing whatsoever about AIPAC. Correct me if I’m wrong?

I still don’t see anyone apart from Rumbold agreeing that what Bikhair said was wrong.

Jesus Christ, Katy, what do you think was the point of my post at 31? Bikhar’s post at 30 was obviously, humungously, wrong. You must be the only woman on the planet that thinks I’m subtle :-)

#71 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:06 pm

And as for Harry’s Place and Devil’s Kitchen, more power to both their elbows, as to PP’s.

I love a robust blogosphere.

#72 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:08 pm

PS Chairwomen good to see you back :D!! Are you out of the hospital for good, or any further appointments needed?

#73 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:11 pm

Douglas - the AIPAC thing was addressed to Sahil.

Sahil - I know that AIPAC thinks that Jewish interests and Israeli interests are the same, but that doesn’t mean that they are. AIPAC, like all interest groups, speaks only for itself. I share Sunny’s intense dislike of so-called community representative groups; they do their communities far more harm than good.

Re the HP thing - I wasn’t suggesting that that was in any way antisemitic; I don’t know whether any of their writers are Jewish or not. It’s just struck me recently that an awful lot of threads on here tend to end up with people slagging off HP even when there is no connection between HP and the post subject, and it’s just annoying.

#74 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:13 pm

Katy,

At 67. Er no, I don’t have many folk I’d count as current friends and none of them are Jews. Those that I did know were OK though. I really object to being characterised like that. It is a cheap trick, is it not?

#75 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:16 pm

Chairwoman at 71,

I’d really like an update on how you are keeping. You seem very fit for the fray!

#76 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:20 pm

Sahil

Hi and thanks for asking :-). My 10 1/2 weeks in hospital gave me some improvement, but ultimately they couldn’t provide the specialist treatment needed. I am going to have to into a different hospital for this treatment, possibly within the next few weeks, for about 5 weeks.

Ho hum. Just when I started to feel like me again.

#77 Comment By Chairwoman On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:21 pm

Thanks to you too Douglas, we crossed in the ether, so to speak.

#78 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:24 pm

Was it a cheap trick? I don’t think so. You have to bear in mind that you also told me that in your opinion Jews play the religious card whenever they’re losing an argument (see above) and you did seem to be saying to Bikhair that you agreed with what she said, although you didn’t think that it applied to David T. If in fact I’ve completely misunderstood you then that’s great but I can only go on the things that you say.

#79 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:25 pm

Chairwoman,

Indeed we did! Best wishes.

#80 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:35 pm

Katy I completely agree with this self-appointed ‘community leaders’ nonsense. Any lobby can only speak for itself and only itself, I just wish more people held this opinion. Specific arguments should be challenged on their own merit not with everything under the sun.

Chairwomen, I’m sure Tutu is well aware of the large numbers of Jewish activists fighting for the end to apartheid. What I’m going to say can be viewed in many way but here goes:

I have studied economics as my major discipline and the most liberal opinions I have ever read have usually been from Jewish academics/activists who have usually always been at the forefront of civil rights movements and leading ‘liberal’ causes. I guess that’s why some people like me find it weird that when it comes to Israel I hear many JEWS with amongst others evangelicals (not exactly liberal) being so in tune with illiberal ideas to settle essentially a land contract issue. I know how patronising this sounds as Jews are not some homogenous group, but they are almost liberal is nearly every big social issue e.g. abortion, civil marriages, immigrants rights etc. So when it comes to Israel I hear some very extreme things and this completely throws me off. What I also find dangerous about this issue is that AIPAC endorsing Jews may think having hard-right Christians as friends is a good idea, but look at this:

[11] http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196

#81 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:39 pm

Chairwomen sorry to hear that. I myself have now got a pinched nerve for life (meaning I lose sensation of the right side of my body if I work out too much) because the NHS could only give me one physiotherapy treatment in 3 months and then I had to leave London to go to Edinburgh. Great stuff the NHS.

#82 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:41 pm

Katy,

You’d assume that it is only fair to commentate on something if you are closely and immediately involved? Ho hum for the independent observer then.

I’d agree with you that my post at 35 was perhaps ambiguous, but I’d really, really like you to read everything I write and not jump on a single comment. Frankly, I’ve given you that breathing space, to the extent of ending up agreeing with your arguement when my first reaction was to say ‘what rubbish’. In other words, I read all of what you write, and agree or disagree with you on that basis.

Would it be inappropriate to ask you whether you see some Jews as using a defensive mechanism based on displaying aggressive plumage, or not?

I have already said that I exclude David T and Brownie from any such analysis. Can I make it clear that I’d exclude you and Chairwoman from it too? And Bananabrain. You are not the dafties.

But it does seem to be a defensive mechanism.

#83 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:46 pm

You’d assume that it is only fair to commentate on something if you are closely and immediately involved? Ho hum for the independent observer then.

*baffled*

I don’t know what you’re talking about there. I’m sorry.

Would it be inappropriate to ask you whether you see some Jews as using a defensive mechanism based on displaying aggressive plumage, or not?

but I have SAID so myself. I said at 57 above that if you had said “some Jews play the religious card” I’d have agreed with you. But you just said “Jews”. And then you talked about “my lot”. You’re the one who keeps talking about Jews as a group, as I keep pointing out.

#84 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:51 pm

Sahil,

I had to leave London to go to Edinburgh

I hope you get better soon. Hopefully you’ll stay.

#85 Comment By sahil On 20th October, 2007 @ 1:54 pm

“Sahil,

I had to leave London to go to Edinburgh

I hope you get better soon. Hopefully you’ll stay.”

Thanks dude, but this was a while ago, in 2003, have moved back to London, but I really miss Edinburgh and Glasgow. I think I may retire up near Avimore if that’s a possibility in 30 years time. Still have the fucking pinched nerve though.

#86 Comment By Sid On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:07 pm

HP took moral relativism to new heights when one of the writers claimed, I think it was that depressing Brownie chap, that Bernard Manning wasn’t racist. A curious display of liberal guilt since Bernard Manning was the master of the racist joke and never apologised for being a genius of the artform.

#87 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:10 pm

I didn’t think that Bernard Manning’s racist credentials were in doubt. We are as one on that subject. But what I’ve noticed is that a thread will start on a post about something that doesn’t refer to HP at all, and at some stage someone will say something like “I’m sure they’d agree with this at HP” or “of course at HP they’d LOVE this” and the next thing you know everyone’s slagging off HP, and it just seems a bit bizarre.

#88 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:13 pm

Katy,

“*baffled*”.

It was probably a dig at this:

I imagine some of your best friends are Jews.

Read post 43 again. Try to understand that it is not an attack, it is a comment on how defensive some Jews appear to be to criticism, and what they do to deflect it.

Try to comprehend why I think it is a busted flush as a debating technique.

And I’d add, I don’t care about your religion, but I do care about you.

#89 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:20 pm

Douglas.

I’m starting to wonder if you read your own comments now.

Why you are now asking me to “try to comprehend” why playing the religious card is wrong, I really do not know.

I have already said that some Jews do play what you call the religious card and that I do not approve of it.

What I took issue with was your suggestion that Jews as a GROUP do it, as opposed to SOME Jews doing it.

I have said this about eight hundred times and you just don’t seem to take it in.

#90 Comment By douglas clark On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:49 pm

Katy,

Are you a prosecution lawyer? Just asking, ’cause this feels more like a prosecution than a discussion.

As far as I know, I’ve already conceded that point. When I say that David T and Brownie, Chairwoman and Bananabrain and your very good self do not fit into that category, and I tell you I don’t actually know any Jews personally, it would seem obvious to me that the point you are laboriously attempting to make has already been comprehensively conceded.

So, I don’t know what you are on about.

Or, perhaps this is a form of Inquisition?

If I had put the word ’some’ into line one of post 43, would I be off the hook?

If, instead of taking a legalistic route you’d just said, Douglas, see in line one of post 43, you’d be better off inserting ’some’, I’d have accepted that, there and then, but you had to go all around the houses.

Christ, lawyers.

#91 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:50 pm

I did say that, Douglas, you just don’t read what I’m saying! All the way through this I’ve been saying “I don’t like it that you’re saying “Jews” instead of “some Jews” and you’ve just been ignoring it and now you’re saying I went round the houses! I WAS FOLLOWING YOU!

#92 Comment By Katy Newton On 20th October, 2007 @ 2:52 pm

I said it at 49 and 57! Go and look!


Article printed from Pickled Politics: http://www.pickledpolitics.com

URL to article: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1464

URLs in this post:
[1] MuzzleWatch reports: http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=271
[2] and finally put to bed this terrible smear against Tutu: http://tinyurl.com/3a62za
[3] reversed their decision: http://tinyurl.com/2rg5eh
[4] Tony Karon: http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/
[5] Jimmy Carter is a Holocaust denier: http://tonykaron.com/2007/01/30/how-jimmy-carter-became-a-holocaust-denier/
[6] track record: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=851&x_context=2
[7] http://www.camera.org/index.asp: http://www.camera.org/index.asp
[8] http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/: http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/
[9] http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/: http://tonykaron.com/2007/10/03/my-favorite-anti-semite/
[10] http://www.aipac.org/Publications/PressAIPACStatements/AIPAC_Working_closely_5-10-04.pdf: http://www.aipac.org/Publications/PressAIPACStatements/AIPAC_Working_closely_5-10-04.pdf
[11] http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196