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Race crime increases by 29% - surprised?


by ContraryMary on 11th November, 2005 at 11:00 am    

So race crimes have gone up by 29% in 2004/2005. It’s not that much of a surprise considering the amount of negativity in the media surrounding people of colour over the last 18 months - from the right wings press’s rants on asylum seekers, Michael Howard’s rather fetching election campaign and of course, the demonisation of an entire religion with the war on terror (read Islam).

However are you at all surprised that these figures do not include the period upto and following the London bombings on July 7 2005? I shudder to think what the figures for race crime in the aftermath of this are. But we actually have an indication. It was reported in August that in the month following July 7 2005, race crimes increased by 600%, yes 600% - Link

What do we do? Accept it as a grim reality, and go back to the heads-down, don’t make a fuss mentality of many of our parents? Or make a stand? How do you make a stand against a heavily biased global media?

How’s that for a nice light hearted topic to bring on the weekend?



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60 Comments   |  


  1. shihab — on 11th November, 2005 at 11:29 am  

    I can only speak for myself (I’m with the SWP, selfish wanker’s priority), but I’ve noticed most random people are extra nice on train and tubes and such. ‘I’ve ever so sorry dear, but is that your bag?’ Do I feel patronised? Hell no. Rather strangers were nice to me.

    And it needs to be said: before we get too sad about us wee asians getting beaten, there are plenty of asians out there giving a hell of a lot more race related beatings

  2. ContraryMary — on 11th November, 2005 at 11:56 am  

    shihab - true. I do get the odd friendly smile on the tube, which would have made me think someone was trying to hit on me pre-the London Bombings

    I guess in such a multicultural place as London, there is a degree of safety in numbers amongst ethnic minorities, but would you want to be a young muslim family in a BNP hotspot like Sunderland for example at this moment in time? I certainly wouldn’t.

  3. shihab — on 11th November, 2005 at 12:09 pm  

    On a slight tangent, I went to birmingham day before yesterday and it’s odd how what you read about can have very little corrolation with the image that presents itself once you behold it. Just people milling about, all looking as glum as each other in the dreary city. Like any other day in birmingham. went to a pub, had a pint with an old bloke, played snooker with a mixed race dude, then, went and had fantastic sex in a great hotel with a lovely lady.

    the last bit was thoroughly superfluous, but i wanted to share. my pen’s run out of ink and I can’t grafitti the ladies loo you see…

  4. j0nz — on 11th November, 2005 at 12:24 pm  

    People like Bikhair advocating adulterers/adultresses (equally punsihable!) to be stoned to death (and unchallenged). And you lot come over to HP whinging about Islamphobia.

    Well I completley condemn the BNP - it’s about time moderate Muslims condemned such barbaric practices… Or are you scared?

  5. ContraryMary — on 11th November, 2005 at 12:49 pm  

    shihab - sounds like you had a lovely day. maybe you should have taken the lucky lady on a tour of lozells…

    j0nz - relevance? scared? of what exactly - it sounds like a playground taunt

  6. j0nz — on 11th November, 2005 at 12:52 pm  

    I just got pissed off with Bikhair saying men & women should be stoned for adultery. And the fact that nobody challenged his viewpoint. It’s just depressing.

  7. ContraryMary — on 11th November, 2005 at 1:20 pm  

    Jonz - fair enough. for what it’s worth extremism of any form is disgusting whether religious, Islamic, Hindu or Christian, or ethnic like the BNP.

    if we could just round all these twisted, self serving idiots up and get rid of them (not exactly PC or practical but they don’t give a f**k so why should we), I’d be a happy person.

    For what it’s worth I’m not muslim, and I don’t know Bikhair but he sounds like a pillock if that’s what he’s advocating.

    The whole situation is thoroughly depressing but then you see the people of Jordan protesting against Al Qaeda and it’s a sharp reminder that Al Qaeda, and extremists, are tarring an entire religon with fundamentalist ideals.

    Which is just wrong and it’s up to blogs like this to point it out - because the media certainly isn’t.

  8. j0nz — on 11th November, 2005 at 2:06 pm  

    I don’t think 29% increase includes the 52 people murdered on th 7th July. I wonder if this would be covered under the new religious hatred law?

    More Muslims died last year in Britain through suicide bombings than did by being on the end of racist murders!

    But ContrayMary you are absolulety right, all forms of extremism should be opposed.

  9. NorahJones — on 11th November, 2005 at 2:55 pm  

    Contrarymary, do you know the Lozells area very well?
    I do and there isn’t a war going on. Apart from the extra bobby on the beat it is pretty much the same as its always been.

  10. spawnofsatan — on 11th November, 2005 at 4:45 pm  

    Hmm, it doesn’t say which race(s) are the victims and which are doing the attacking…

  11. Bikhair — on 11th November, 2005 at 11:58 pm  

    jOnz,

    “People like Bikhair advocating adulterers/adultresses (equally punsihable!) to be stoned to death (and unchallenged). And you lot come over to HP whinging about Islamphobia.”

    I dont advocate anything that the Quran and the Sunnah dont advocate. Listen jOnz, unlike you I would hate to live in a society when guilty people arent punished. Rather than show all your sympathy for people who would commit adultery, have sympathy for those men and women who have been cheated on, and the children who have to live with that dishonor and humiliation.

    jOnz, what I want is for people not to commit adultery. Today, unfortunately, it is a matter of life and death.

    Dont be a Islamophobe, be a Allah-o-phobe, someone who fears the punishment of Allah. Though it has been reported an a hadith, that His mercy proceeds his wrath, we should still fear His wrath.

  12. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:06 am  

    Shihab,

    I live in the states and dont really know the politics of the Muslims in your country. Though my husband (I AM A WOMAN) is from the UK, he has nothing good to say about most of the Muslims there.

    What would be interesting to know about attacks that are commited by Asian Muslims, is which mosques they or thier parents attend. What “kind” of Islam or heresy they follow. I am certain that the mosque which has the least incidence of crime related to Asian Muslims will be the one whose dawah is according to the Quran and the Sunnah, generally those attended by the socalled Saudi salafis. I believe there is one located in Birmingham.

    BTW, I’ve been to Birmingham and saw the biggest rat at this park and a great big mosque that reminded me of a Christmas tree. You Pakistanis are a trip!

    Before I go, big ups to Derby. That city was so adorable.

  13. John Barnes — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:39 am  

    Can we please not do the whole, ‘war on terror = war on Islam’. Its simply not true, there is no global conspiracy to destroy Islam going on. Its just so happens for some reason (maybe it has something to do with energy reserves?) that alot of the conflict at the moment seems to be centred in the Middle-east where the majority of states happen to have large muslim populations.

    This is the kind of crap that get touted round alot and it doesn’t really help things, conversley we should stop saying the Bin Laden and co. are trying to create some sort of Isalmic superstate in the West, also bullshit. Until we strip all the rubbish being put out by both sides and stop making out that opinion is fact we are not going to get anywhere

  14. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:39 am  

    No one going to challenge this cunt?

  15. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:41 am  

    Parody my white ass.

  16. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:55 am  

    “Rather than show all your sympathy for people who would commit adultery, have sympathy for those men and women who have been cheated on, and the children who have to live with that dishonor and humiliation.

    jOnz, what I want is for people not to commit adultery. Today, unfortunately, it is a matter of life and death.

    Dont be a Islamophobe, be a Allah-o-phobe, someone who fears the punishment of Allah. Though it has been reported an a hadith, that His mercy proceeds his wrath, we should still*** fear His wrath.*** ”

    It’s all about fear, innit? Well, this sounds like the same bullshit from the old testament. The difference being that I don’t think anyone espousing the OT(obnoxious as they are) is trying to kill anyone because of personal moral choices.

    How about YOU live in fear of your own mental constructs and leave the rest of us heathens to our own affairs? It’s people like you, and your screwball ideas, that make those of us with western values think we have a culture clash on our hands. There are those (the ones who control the military) who are more than willing to take you up on your challenge, and the whole fucking earth is going to end up paying for it. Go to hell.

  17. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 12:59 am  

    “I am certain that the mosque which has the least incidence of crime related to Asian Muslims will be the one whose dawah is according to the Quran and the Sunnah, generally those attended by the socalled *****Saudi***** salafis. I believe there is one located in Birmingham.”

    hahaha, well that explains a lot. And you live in the US? WHY???

  18. Geezer — on 12th November, 2005 at 2:40 am  

    Contrarymary wrote: “I guess in such a multicultural place as London, there is a degree of safety in numbers amongst ethnic minorities, but would you want to be a young muslim family in a BNP hotspot like Sunderland for example at this moment in time? I certainly wouldn’t. ”

    Good news for us whiteys then. Once the UK has the same ethnic composition as London you guys will feel safer. What if we dont feel safer as a result? No worries, doesnt seem like we have any legitimate say in the matter.

  19. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 2:40 am  

    No one going to challenge this cunt?

    j0nz - funny how you want us to challenge bikhair (and please don’t use such abusive language when she’s not insulting you), when you don’t seem to challenge all the hatred that comes out of people on the hp comments section.

    frankly, the vast majority of us on pp are not gonna advocate stoning people for adultery. if its consensual then its up to people.

    however, in the grand scheme of things, its a non-issue when far many bigger issues are at hand. If however the issue was raised on its own, of course I would challenge it.

    though I agree with Bikhair on one aspect. Muslims in the UK are more f*cked than in the USA. In fact that applies to sikhs and hindus too. though Sikhs in Canada are much worse.

  20. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 2:44 am  

    What if we dont feel safer as a result?

    Why should you not feel safer with increasing minorities exactly?

  21. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 3:54 am  

    “Good news for us whiteys then. Once the UK has the same ethnic composition as London you guys will feel safer. What if we dont feel safer as a result? No worries, doesnt seem like we have any legitimate say in the matter. ”

    As a white woman who lived in Los Angeles for many years, I felt perfectly safe as a minority. The predominant color in LA is brown, i.e., Mexican. The color of somebody’s skin doesn’t phase me in the slightest . It’s the ability to respect another’s space and right to live as they choose that I care about. I don’t have a clue what goes on the neighbors house, nor do I care, unless someone (person or animal) is hurt by it.

    I see Geezer’s remark as rooted in total fear. I would ask you, Geezer, the same as Sunny has. What exactly scares you? The whitey remark seems like it’s color but, I suspect it’s more than that.

    The remarks from Bikhair are alarming, to me, and I have no idea what color she is. For all I know she’s a whitey. It’s the implication that she feels others should be punished when they don’t adhere to her ideas of “morality” that I find repulsive.

  22. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 4:39 am  

    Sunny,

    “though I agree with Bikhair on one aspect. Muslims in the UK are more f*cked than in the USA. In fact that applies to sikhs and hindus too. though Sikhs in Canada are much worse.”

    I think we have more economic and social oppurtunities in this country, and we just import better immigrants. Those imported legally ofcourse and those not involved in Sept, 11.

  23. Foureyes — on 12th November, 2005 at 10:16 am  

    The war on terror is a war on Islam? What utter bullshit.

  24. The Don — on 12th November, 2005 at 11:38 am  

    When ‘made in america’ advocated mass killing it was just the macho posturing of a blow-hard hick.

    With Bikhair, on the other hand, I get the impression she would happily carry out the sentence herself, suffused in a glow of holy righteousness.

  25. Geezer — on 12th November, 2005 at 3:39 pm  

    I would Just like to say there is another GEEZER on here now [the guy above]. That is not me posting I think I shall change my nick to The_geezer_from_barfi.

    I shall add to the topic in a bit.

  26. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 4:37 pm  

    what the Don said

  27. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 5:26 pm  

    OK well we will have to agree to to disagree.

    IMO Bikhair your advoacy for Shari’a makes me feel PHSYICALLY Sick. Maybe you should take a look at your shari’a ‘justice’ in action.

    And sorry for the language earlier.

  28. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 5:36 pm  

    Bikhair

    You should read about real life ‘justice’ and what it actually means.

    And according to Muslims Against Stoning, Islam does not mandate this as a punishment.

  29. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 6:27 pm  

    j0nz, did you mean to say “Islam DOES mandate this”?

    I watched the video. Dear GOD. I’m horrified. Add to this, Bikhair’s beloved Saudis, chopping off heads and hands. What vile bloodlust. I cannot understand why the good people of Iran (where the stoning video takes places) don’t rise up and take these fuckers out. I have an Iranian friend (secular type guy), and I’m going to ask him this question.

    I think it’s very important, in this whole debate of why western people fear eastern immigrants, to understand that it’s this very thing. Elsewhere in this blog, I’ve posted that I don’t care about color. It’s ideas and deeds. In this respect, Islam is NOT compatible with Ameican values, AT ALL. Apostates, YES! It’s so crucial that westerners understand that there are those who are raised in Islam who do not practice it according to the teachings, or at all. One can be raised in a culture, partaking of some customs, holidays, food, whatever, yet not really be an adherant. I was raised Catholic. I ditched that pretty young, though I love Christmas. See what I’m saying?

    As an American, when I see a mosque built, I wonder if the people who will be attending there, hold the values and beliefs as shown in that video. This is where the predjudice comes in. How are we to know? We don’t want to wake up one day and find our communities faced with this. As bad as fundamentalists Christians are, with their non-stop stop “praise the Lord, and praise the Lord that”, I can live them, or not even take note of them, because they’re not killing anyone. Also, in the teachings of Jesus, though I am not a follower (but see him as a Master Saint), it’s all about love, forgiveness, compassion. The fundies, who are so judgemental, emphisise the old testament, which Christ turned on it’s head! It is, in fact, the holy book of the Jews, not Jesus. Oddly, the Jews tend to be far more liberal. See how messed up religion is? We have Muslims denying what that video and website are exposing, and Christians espousing the old “eye for eye” shit from the Jews. It seems nobody knows what the hell their own religions teach, just what they want it to be. Why can’t people get their heads straight, and REJECT what they don’t really believe? I think this shows the power of paradigms, and how stubborn and afraid people are to think freely, and break chains.

  30. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 6:30 pm  

    Also, j0nz, what is your blog?

  31. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 6:47 pm  

    The Don,

    “With Bikhair, on the other hand, I get the impression she would happily carry out the sentence herself, suffused in a glow of holy righteousness.”

    What sentence would I carry out? Sorry! According to the Sharia carrying out any sentence isnt my business,duty, or obligation. It is the business of the leader of the Muslims because it is him who will have to answer for his leadership of those Muslims. When Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) carried out the judgements he was the leader of the Muslims, when Abu Bakr did it, when Umar did it, and so on and so forth they were the leaders of the Muslims. Back then Muslims knew thier obligations and knew not to exceed the limits set forth by the sharia.

    Today, the Muslims dont know.

  32. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 6:53 pm  

    jOnz,

    “IMO Bikhair your advoacy for Shari’a makes me feel PHSYICALLY Sick. Maybe you should take a look at your shari’a ‘justice’ in action. ”

    Without sounding like a pervert, why not show a video of a man or women commiting adultery, show how thier spouse and the children react, show how thier lives and honor will forever change as a result. Above all show how widespread corruption in the land affects the people of the community. I believe your creator in the bible is recorded to have destroyed whole cities, maybe even cities with thousands or millions of people because of such activities.

    You hate the idea of being stoned, you hate the idea of people being stoned, well I hate the idea of people commiting adultery. I hate it.

  33. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 6:57 pm  

    Susano

    My blog is here.

    Bikhair is a fundamentalist Muslim. In other words a non-thinking zombie to Islam. Poor girl.

  34. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:00 pm  

    Take heed all Moderate Muslims!

    Bikhair has spoken! You do not know what you are talking about with this moderation rubbish!

    /sarcasm.

    (no offence to anyone intended- except perhaps to Bikhair)

  35. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:04 pm  

    alright alright! Jeesus, its only adultery. J0nz - surely if you were that pissed off about people dying, then you’d be writing about the American govt using white phosphorus on innocent people in Fallujah as a weapon. Using chemical weapons on innocent people is not newsworthy, but you’re getting upset over hypothetical adultery?

    I don’t think she’s a non-thinking zombie. Sure she has totally different and moral values that place a much bigger emphasis on sexual mis-conduct than say, other things, but its not non-thinking.

  36. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:12 pm  

    Susano,

    Perhaps I am not making myself very clear.

    “Add to this, Bikhair’s beloved Saudis, chopping off heads and hands. What vile bloodlust.”

    I do love Muslims for the sake of Allah. I dont love Saudis because they are Saudi. Thats jahiliyah. I dont think, or atleast I hope the Saudis dont do it as some kind of bloodlust. I believe they do it because it is an accordance with the sharia.

    “*****Saudi*****
    hahaha, well that explains a lot. And you live in the US? WHY??? ”

    If you knew Muslim politics you would know that those Muslims are referred to by thier detractors as Saudi salafis because they dont advocate the violent overthrow of the Saudis regime, and dont use them as a reason for all the evils that visit Muslims today. Those “Saudi salafis” dont advocate the overthrow of any Muslim government because they know that these governments are more or less a reflection of the corruption of the people. In fact what these “Saudi salafis” do favor is tarbiyah and tazkiyah: education and purification of the Muslims. They would like to return to the religion of the piou predecesors, not to be confused with riding camels and eating lizards. They want Muslims to learn jihad before jihad, so we dont go on some violent rampage, cant even distinguish between the combatant and the civilian, and every other corruption and deviance that you see today.

    Why dont I live in Saudi? When everything else fails ask that question.

  37. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:21 pm  

    surely if you were that pissed off about people dying, then you’d be writing about the American govt using white phosphorus on innocent people in Fallujah as a weapon. Using chemical weapons on innocent people is not newsworthy, but you’re getting upset over hypothetical adultery?

    Oh come off it Sonny. Why are you defending her, and why do you keep trying to accuse me of hypocrisy?

    The white phospherous issue is quite frankly the best propaganda for the Anti-war drones to come out in ages!

    Scott from the Daily Ablution discusses the White
    Phospherous issue far better than I can. For those concerned (as I was) about these reports, then read Scott here.

  38. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:22 pm  

    Yeh sorry my typical Muslim hating Islamophobic reaction! Sorry!!! I really should be more tolerant of other people’s intolerance! I’m so biggoted…

  39. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:32 pm  

    Yes I’ve read Scott Burgess’ apologetic behaviour for the American govt. He doesn’t deny its a chemical weapon (though he tried initially until the American military admitted it). He doesn’t even deny it harms people (though he tried that too earlier). He is disputing the extent to which it is being used as a weapon. Well bloody ha-dee-ha!

    Burgess does anything or says anything to try and give the impression that the Indy or the Guardian are biased. He’s a one tricky pony.

    Forget the idea that we went into war because Hussain was supposed to use chemical weapons. Of course we are allowed to use cluster bombs and chemical weapons on innocent civilians to drive out “insurgents”. Then no one, least of all Burgess, bats an eyelid. Imagine the Iranians using WP on American civilians. The goddamn Pentagon would be polishing up its nukes.

    But no, we have bigger issues to discuss, like the hypothetical stoning of people like adultery.

  40. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:42 pm  

    Qui?!

    Burgess does anything or says anything to try and give the impression that the Indy or the Guardian are biased. He’s a one tricky pony.

    No!! The Guardian / The Independent BIASED?! What a silly right wing delusional concept!! My you really are a gem. Ah dear well at least you gave me a laugh..

  41. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 7:53 pm  

    I’m not saying they’re not biased towards a particular agenda. All newspapers have a viewpoint or an agenda.

    My point is that he spends all his time just pointing that out. So regardless of the fact that his earlier claims, he focuses on how the he ‘proved them wrong’ rather than the moral outrage at the usage of WP.

  42. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 8:28 pm  

    Bikhair,

    I have some questions for you a friend would like to ask:

    is adultery the only sin that is unforgiven? and does murdering someones spouse (guilty or innocent) not effect their children and families lives for the worst?

  43. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 8:37 pm  

    “Why dont I live in Saudi? When everything else fails ask that question.”

    erm, WRONG. So, I repeat, with views like yours, why do you live in the USA? Wouldn’t you be more true to your values by residing in a theorcracy? All of the crap that you espouse is ANTITHETICAL to the US Constitution, our laws, our way of life, our culture. You belong here like I belong in Saudi Arabia in a bikini.

    Sunny, I have to agree with j0nz. What Bikhair is supporting is MURDER. All the worse that she does so under the cover of Allah, and the rulers she would have carry out the bloody violence. She is a thug.

  44. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 8:51 pm  

    jonz,

    “is adultery the only sin that is unforgiven?”

    Actually what is one million times worse than adultery is shirk and kufr. But there are some sins and crimes that cant wait for yumal Qiyama, and if people knew what to expect on that great day, stoning doesnt sound too bad. But Allah’s mercy proceeds his wrath so we should strive for His mercy with works of obedience and goodness to our brothers ans sisters in eman, and good manners to those who wish to know the truth about Islam.

    “and does murdering someones spouse (guilty or innocent) not effect their children and families lives for the worst?”

    I cant answer that but I will tell you that my husband once told me that if I commited adultery, he wouldnt be able to watch or take part in the stoning, I dont think he is obligated to according to the Sharia, wa Allahu alim, I would have to ask. But he would never want Allah’s judgement to be neglected. Insha’Allah.

  45. Bikhair — on 12th November, 2005 at 8:58 pm  

    Susano,

    “Wouldn’t you be more true to your values by residing in a theorcracy?”

    Hijra- migration from Darul Kufr to Darul Islam- is obligatory on Muslims.

    “You belong here like I belong in Saudi Arabia in a bikini.”

    Girl, you wear your bikini in Saudi, but please in the privacy of your own home, with your husband. Remember to do a little dance too. He works hard all day and needs some entertainment from his loving, honorable, honest wife.

    Susano, if you met me you would love me. I would like for us to get to know eachother outside of this blog. Lets excange emails.

  46. The Don — on 12th November, 2005 at 9:16 pm  

    I’m still trying to get my head around the idea that videos of adultery are more repellent and disturbing than videos of stonings. Soft core versus snuff?

    ‘You hate the idea of being stoned, you hate the idea of people being stoned, well I hate the idea of people commiting adultery. I hate it. ‘

    Yeah, I think we’ve got the point. It would be inappropriate to speculate about why you feel so strongly, I’m not a fan of adultery myself, but you don’t kill people over it. You especially don’t torture them to death in public. Because that’s wrong. And evil. It doesn’t matter how many arabic terms you employ or how much you point to your particular religious narrative, you are an advocate of horror.

    Sunny,

    I was stunned by this;

    ’she has totally different moral values that place a much bigger emphasis on sexual mis-conduct than say, other things,’

    ‘Other things’ being human life.

  47. The Don — on 12th November, 2005 at 9:21 pm  

    Wait a minute.

    She’s discussed the details of her hypothetical stoning with her husband?

    This is a wind up. nice one. had us all going.

  48. j0nz — on 12th November, 2005 at 9:23 pm  

    This is a wind up. nice one. had us all going.

    I wish it was a windup, I really do.

  49. The Don — on 12th November, 2005 at 9:45 pm  

    Hey, Susano

    ‘I would like for us to get to know eachother outside of this blog. Lets excange emails’

    Glad I’m not on the same continent. Seriously creepy.

  50. Ray Robison — on 12th November, 2005 at 10:36 pm  

    You may want to share this with your readers. This is not a professional work, but just an informal analysis.

    I had this conversation yesterday regarding this news story about WP being used as a chemical weapon.

    I am a former fire support officer, who was trained to travel with infantry and armor units and be the eyes of the artillery to call for fire.
    I read the article from the Italian news source, and let me state unequivocally that what it claims is physically impossible. A white phosphorous round used for illumination is a base ejecting projectile that “opens” in the air and floats down under a parachute. The projectile casing does continue down range, but fire direction officers and fire support officers along with the maneuver commanders clear this impact area as part of the calculations. The projectile casing itself could kill a person, as any bullet would, but it is not possible to use it as a chemical warfare attack.
    The flare itself floats down and you would pretty much have to chase after it and position yourself under where you project it will land to even get burned. It is possible although very unlikely that this flare could hit a building and could cause a fire, but the injury wouldn’t be a chemical burn, but a burn from the building fire. I have never seen anything close to this happen.
    The flares come down slowly and usually burn out first, but since they are the brightest thing in the sky, it would be easy to avoid one if it landed while burning. I have seen a few flares land on the ground while burning, but this is much different than a chemical attack.
    The only way you could purposely harm anyone with this is if you direct fired at a short range. The projectile most likely wouldn’t eject the flare (it has a timed fuse) and it really wouldn’t matter if you fired Cheetohs at someone at that range, the concussion would kill them.
    An artillery unit wouldn’t use direct fire unless it was being attacked. And even then it would use their organic direct fire weapons and if necessary, another type of projectile. To use a WP for direct fire would be entirely counterproductive to the security of the battery even in self defense.

    This Italian news story is nothing but a lie.

    After being asked repeatedly to analyze the “Italian News Story” (gag), I analyzed the video, here are my thoughts

    I analyzed the video and am pleased to announce that it is junk. There are many things I could point out, but here is what sticks out.
    1. The “fire raining down from the helicopter” was the part that concerned me. I had to watch it repeatedly to figure it out. At first I thought it was the backblast from a missile being fired the other direction. After a more thorough analysis, I realize it was an air burst of WP artillery rounds. Those are basically small rags that looked like balls of fire. This is because it is night and it is hard to get perspective at night, with or without night vision equipment. Taken out of context, it is easy to make it look like fire raining down on the city. The rag would certainly burn, but it would be like a cigarette and you would just need to brush it off, maybe take off clothes, and get away from it.
    2. The voice over states “contrary to the claim by the state department that WP was used in open fields, this was not true because tracer rounds were used to illuminate the enemy” Nothing could have spelled out liar any bigger than that one statement. Tracy rounds are never used to illuminate the enemy. The glow from a tracer round lasts tenths of a second and travels hundreds of miles an hour; it could not possibly be used for this function, again a claim that defies all practicality. Tracer rounds are used to see where your bullets are going so your fire can be adjusted, flat out. And quoting the State Department about a military function?

    3. The pictures of dead bodies while hideous provide no analytical value. Contrast the opening from Vietnam, with the burned little girl, running from a napalmed village. That is conclusive evidence. Nothing about these dead bodies looked any different to the many dead bodies I have seen analyzing other videos (of dead bodies) that were all made that way (dead) by Saddam’s regime and then by Jihadists. There is no way to determine what killed these people by looking at pictures, except maybe by a forensics expert.

    4. The soldiers, this is more complicated:
    I find the taller guy, I think his name was Garret, credible. His story rang true and is tragically repeated. But this is not a war crime or a chemical attack, but bad target identification and a complete human tragedy, assuming the “civilians” were indeed non combatants, it is very hard for the soldiers to tell. Although I do question his motives that is irrelevant to this analysis since he provides no “evidence” of chemical weapons.
    The other guy Jeff was a liar, to the point I would need to see his orders to believe he was in Iraq. He states, (paraphrasing) “the orders unequivocally came from the pentagon to wait until after the election”.
    How does he know this? Was he CENTCOM commander at the time? Did the CENTCOM commander call him up and tell him that? Even if it was true, that fact in itself is not nefarious.
    The re-election of Bush would be a crushing blow to the Jihadists in Fallujah, and let me tell you, I have seen their own videos recovered from there and the place was crawling with them. It would make tactical sense to wait, if you were pretty confident that Bush would win. They call this tactical patience.
    Also, the timing of the attack was heavily influenced by the Iraqi Provisional Authority. The U.S. had just helped them form and wanted to get them involved with running their country as soon as possible. That is why the first battle of Fallujah was ended, because the new Iraqi government wanted more time to talk with the Jihadists. That is until the new Iraqi government officials figured out that they were now the primary target of the Jihadists and told the U.S. effectively, go get them (the Jihadists in Fallujah) as soon as you can.
    Jeff states (paraphrasing), that the U.S. was using chemical weapons because we used WP. Hogwash. The video itself showed the flares floating slowly to the ground and the ground itself gave perspective. Now I am not saying I would want WP on my skin, but I wouldn’t want Drano on my skin either and I am not declaring chemical warfare on my home. Now a person could make the argument that you could take that Drano and throw it on your neighbor and that would be a chemical attack. True, but, you can not spew WP from a deployed flare because if it is burning, it is burning the WP. You wouldn’t want to put your mouth over it, of course, and you wouldn’t want to purposely hold it to your skin, but you would have to go out of the way to hurt yourself with a flare.

    c. He states (paraphrasing) when they used the stuff (WP) they would come over the net and say the WP is coming or “commence bombing” or something.
    Commence bombing? Who was on the net giving this sitrep, Clark Gable? That’s about the last time anybody used this term. This guy is a clown. And notice he makes claims and then says, oh, I didn’t see it, but I heard about it.

    5. The real tip off about the credibility of this “news story” is the pictures of dead animals.
    The voice over said, paraphrasing: that several animals were found dead with no visible sign of trauma.
    First off, did they examine the animals? If so, they didn’t show it. Sure something is not visible, if you don’t look! Animals die everyday from natural causes, hunger, disease, or even getting hit by cars or possibly by conventional weapons.
    And get this, they show people who appear burned and claim this to be a sign of a chemical weapon, then they show animals with no injuries in the context of this discussion to imply they died of a mysterious chemical weapon. Their “facts” not only fail to support each other, but they directly conflict with each other. Yet they choose to throw them at the viewer with full understanding of the emotional impact of these images.

    6. A human rights group based in Fallujah? For crying out loud, that was Saddam’s power base. That is were the people burned four contractors and hung them from a bridge.

    By introducing these “facts” in the context of a chemical weapons discussion, yet not having any supporting evidence, I can only conclude that not only are these charges false, but this was done with the documentary creator’s full knowledge that they were baseless charges. In other words, they purposely lied, which goes to their credibility.

    After I wrote this, I was informed of more “supporting evidence” linked on the www.Dailykos.com:

    “”WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired ’shake and bake’ missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.”
    — Field Artillery Magazine, via Steven D

    My analysis:

    I don’t mean to speak for the author, but this is evident

    “”WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition.”

    Very true and widely known among redlegs (artillerymen). Nothing interesting here.

    “We used it for screening missions at two breeches …”

    The kind of projectile they are speaking about here creates smoke. It is widely, commonly, and legally used by every army to conceal their men. Usually, if an obstacle needs to be breeched, the smoke is delivered by artillery in between the obstacle and the enemy observer. It can also be placed on the enemy to confuse and scare them. The smoke itself is uncomfortable, but not dangerous, unless you want to sit on top of the projectile and breathe it. I know because I have experienced it.

    “and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE.”

    Notice he said psychological weapon and not chemical weapon. This is because the smoke would confuse the enemy and conceal our movements and would indeed, scare them.

    “We fired ’shake and bake’ missions at the insurgents”

    A poor choice of phrasing because it is not technically accurate and does give the wrong impression, but this is a soldier and not a politician or a marketing strategist. (After further consideration, I think if the reference is to the projectile itself and not to the effect on flesh, it could be accurate. The HE would shake the ground and the material that creates smoke does so by burning (baking) but you would pretty much have to try to set yourself on fire by rolling around in it.)

    “using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.”

    This takes a little bit of imagination. Imagine you are in a fighting position and the enemy is dropping smoke near your position. You ask yourself “why are they dropping smoke here?” the answer “because they are coming right through here.” So, you haul butt out of your defensive position and expose yourself to HE.

    This statement has absolutely nothing to do with the “dual use” of smoke (WP) as a chemical weapon. It is stating that WP can have a psychological effect as well as a tactical use. That is the only “dual use” here.

    -Ray Robison is a Sr. Military Operations Research Analyst with Scientific Applications International Corporation at the Aviation and Missile, Research, Development, Engineering Command in Huntsville Alabama. His background includes over ten years of military service as an officer and enlisted soldier in the Medical Branch, Field Artillery and Signal Corp including the Gulf War and Kosovo operations. Most recently he worked as a contractor for DIA with the Iraqi Survey Group.

  51. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 11:11 pm  

    “Lets excange emails.’

    Lets not.

    Bikhair, if it weren’t for the fact that you would wish such dreadful crimes upon others, I would feel sorry for you. You are so brainwashed but, you’re an adult, so its on you. I’m very curious - were you born a Muslim, or are you a convert? American born, or somewhere else? Sometimes converts are the most, shall I say, strict. I have a friend who converted to fundamental Catholicism. Real fanatic, she is. Even she doesn’t advocate murdering people, though.

    So, you never answered my question. Why the United States when your religious law is a violation of our criminal code? It’s not alright or welcome here. Do you get that?

    As for the bikini - it was designed for the beach.

  52. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 11:21 pm  

    Sunny, Ray - On WP: I saw the video. Often, I’ve thought of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. While I believe that mankind opened Pandoras Box with nuclear weapons, and I’m sure not in favor of them being used anywhere, ever, in Japan, prior to the A-bomb, it was carpet bombing, convential warfare. Huge fire storms resulted, and the burning of everyone and everything. All I can say is, and I know it sounds trite, war is not the answer. All of these weapons are ghastly. We have to overthrow the PTB, or it will NEVER end. I don’t know how we will but, we better figure it out before they kill us all - except the cockroaches, of course.

  53. Sajn — on 12th November, 2005 at 11:59 pm  

    Curious that there is little discussion about racism in the UK on this thread but plenty on stonings and chemical weapons.

    PS Which has resulted in more deaths - stonings or chemical weapons?

  54. j0nz — on 13th November, 2005 at 12:22 am  

    Sajn

    Can I just point out one teeny weeny little factoid

    1. Nobody has advocated the use chemical of weapons.

    2. Stoning has been actively advocated on this blog recently.

    Chemical Weapons… hmm who used chemical weapons… Saddam - he gassed 8,000 Kurds in one go. Now THATS’s Racism. So if you want to talk about Iraq and chemical weapons go ahead.

    Thanks.

  55. j0nz — on 13th November, 2005 at 12:22 am  

    Ok more than one factoid but who’s counting.

  56. susano — on 13th November, 2005 at 2:02 am  

    When talking about the war in Iraq, I don’t think anyone is arguing that GOD, or Allah, or Jesus is mandating the carnage. At least, I haven’t heard that. Religion may pour gasoline on the fire but, it’s not the cause. That seems like a seperate subject, though equally as worthy, from discussing religious beliefs that advocate murder, or even demand it. It all seems important, to me. Just in different ways, I guess.

  57. susano — on 13th November, 2005 at 2:27 am  

    Oh, and, Sajn, it’s race crimes we’re talking about, right? Why are westerners worried about or afraid of immigrants? Do you think color is the reason, or cultural and religious differences? The current wars are about oil and pipline right of ways. The conflict among neighbors is about something else. We have to talk about it in order to figure out what’s going on. For me, the exchange is very enlightening, and also affirms some ideas I’d previously had. Eventually, we need to figure who can live together and who can’t. That might sound a bit pessimistic but, I think, it’s true. A blog like this helps to sort out what those of us from similar and vastly different backgrounds are like. Some differences we can see are easily overcome, and maybe even things we might like to integrate into our own lives. Others, are insurmountable. We may as well figure it out ASAP. If we can live together, then we need to go to our respective corners, before we kill each other. At least that’s how I see it. It’s like reality - deal with it.

  58. susano — on 13th November, 2005 at 2:33 am  

    I meant - If we CANNOT live together

    And, BTW - just from posting here, I can tell you there are people here that I could date, and it makes no difference to me that they were born Muslim. It’s how they think. Bikhair, on the other hand, I’d like deported (though if anyone tried to stone her, I’d be the first to step in and stop it. I just don’t think the favor would be returned, LOL).

  59. PassingThrough — on 13th November, 2005 at 3:10 am  

    Susano you really a treasure my dear. The hopeless white liberal who doesnt get it, any of it, hasnt got the slightest clue at all. Really I do worry about you. Come on are you for real?

  60. Al-Hack — on 13th November, 2005 at 3:16 am  

    This thread has totally gone off-topic. As someone already said - who has died more from, stoning or chemical weapons? I’m closing it.

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