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  • Ken’s love affair with Sikh nutters continues


    by Sunny
    20th September, 2007 at 2:30 pm    

    Here we go again… I was alerted to this ‘press release’

    ————
    NATIONAL SIKH CONVENTION & FIRST WORLD SIKH SUMMIT

    On Monday 17 September 2007, the Sikh Federation (UK) and affiliated organisations are holding the first World Sikh Summit in London. The event is being supported by Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, and will be held at the Greater London Authority, City Hall, The Queen’s Walk, London SE1 2AA, between 10am-2pm. Registration and refreshments for the event will be from 9.30am with a light buffet lunch served at 12 noon.

    The purpose of the Summit is to raise awareness on the range of challenges faced by Sikhs, share best practice on how the challenges are or could be addressed, and agree a common strategy and an action plan for the future.

    As one of the most diverse cities in the world and home to a significant Sikh community, it is fitting that London is to host the first in a series of such Summits to be held in major cities around the world, as agreed at an international meeting of Sikh delegates held in Switzerland on 25 March 2007.

    The London Summit aims to start the process of bringing together leading Sikh organisations across the globe that are working towards protecting and achieving greater rights for Sikhs. Other venues nominated for future summits include Vancouver, Brussels, San Francisco, Paris, Amritsar, Geneva and Delhi.

    The Sikh Federation (UK) is a non-governmental organisation set up in September 2003 and strives to influence decision makers on issues of concern to Sikhs in the UK, Europe and elsewhere. The Federation has around 75 branches throughout the UK and over 180 affiliated member organisations including Gurdwaras, and groups working with young people, women and older people.

    There will be a preliminary meeting relating to the Summit on Saturday 15 September between 2-6pm in Wolverhampton (Main Hall at the Compton Park conference facility). The internationally renowned National Sikh Convention concluding on Sunday 16 September at Guru Nanak Gurdwara, Sedgley Street, Wolverhampton is expected to once again attract in excess of 10,000 Sikhs. Your participation in the Summit, along with the associated events would be most appreciated.
    ——————————

    The Sikh Federation is of course full of people who were previously part of International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF) a terrorist organisation banned in 2001 for funnelling money to India to Sikh separatists.

    Nice friends Ken Livingstone keeps inviting to his place. The most amusing bit is the Sikh Federation’s claims of having so many affiliates and ‘branches’. It has none. It’s base is the Smethick Gurudwara in Birmingham and that’s it. In London no one cares or has heard about the Sikh Federation and I was told that by a committee member of the big Southall Gurudwara (Havelock Road).

    It’s one thing that all these ‘community leader’ organisations share - they’re great at exaggerating everything.


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    1. Weight Loss Hypnosis

      Weight Loss Hypnosis…

      I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…




    1. sonia — on 20th September, 2007 at 3:05 pm  

      ah well he is the Mayor, when you’re in that position of power, you’ve got to go around talking to people right? i daresay if you became a politician we’d see you doing a fair amount of the same..

    2. Rumbold — on 20th September, 2007 at 3:22 pm  

      Livingstone has no need to talk to The Sikh Federation, while it could be argued that Israel should talk to Hamas for realpolitik reasons. Necessity- that is the difference.

    3. Sid — on 20th September, 2007 at 4:08 pm  

      drat!

    4. Leon — on 20th September, 2007 at 4:17 pm  

      i daresay if you became a politician we’d see you doing a fair amount of the same..

      *giggles*

    5. Kulvinder — on 20th September, 2007 at 4:24 pm  

      Everything sunny said.

      Besides which there isn’t a sikh commmunity in britain, or anywhere actually in the sense these people are promoting it. I doubt the vast majority of sikhs have ever heard of anyone Livingstone will be talking to. They’re representative of nothing but themselves. Its a mickey mouse event.

    6. Juggy — on 21st September, 2007 at 2:45 pm  

      Wonder how much money will funnel into this federation - for good causes of course

    7. j0nz — on 21st September, 2007 at 4:05 pm  

      Ken supporting religious/political extremist groups? Surely not!

    8. Jasvir Kaur — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:18 am  

      Have seen the following postings elsewhere:

      10,000 GATHER TO HEAR CONCERNS OF SIKHS FROM ACROSS THE GLOBE

      The International Sikh Convention that took place at Guru Nanak Gurdwara, Sedgley Street, Wolverhampton concluded at the weekend and attracted around 10,000 Sikhs. Sikh speakers from around a dozen countries addressed those gathered.

      The Sikh Federation (UK) was praised by many speakers from abroad for taking the lead on the international stage in bringing like-minded Sikhs together and trying to secure greater rights for the Sikhs. The main speaker from Punjab was Harinder Singh Khalsa, a member of the Khalsa Action Committee, and the former Ambassador for Norway who resigned in protest following the 1984 Indian army attack on the Golden Temple Complex.

      Other prominent speakers included: Surinderpal Singh (Chicago), the Vice-Chair of the World Sikh Council – America Region, and Kavneet Singh (Philadelphia), head of the World Sikh Council sub-committee for human rights. Both spoke about the recent difficulties in the US for Sikhs with the turban screening policy at US airports. One issue that emerged very clearly in the context of the Sikh identity is that the issue of the Sikh identity and Sikh sovereignty are two sides of the same coin.

      Speakers from Europe included Harpreet Singh, the President of Guru Nanak Darbar Gurdwara, Dublin and President of the Irish Sikh Council who brought a delegation from Dublin for the International Sikh Convention and World Sikh Summit. The delegation included Bhupinder Singh and Satwinder Singh who are campaigning for Sikhs to have the right to wear the turban as part of the uniform in the Garda, the police force in the Republic of Ireland.

      Other speakers from Europe included: Lukhvinder Singh Malhi (Germany), Joga Singh (Norway), Gurvinder Singh and Jasbir Singh (Italy), Ajaib Singh (Greece), Resham Singh (Belgium) and Jatinder Singh (Netherlands).

      Gurjeet Singh
      National Press Secretary
      Sikh Federation (UK)

    9. Jasvir Kaur — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:19 am  

      LEADING UK POLITICIANS PRAISE SIKH FEDERATION (UK) AND BACK ITS KEY CAMPAIGNS

      Sayeeda Warsi who was recently appointed the Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion began her speech at the International Sikh Summit on Sunday in Panjabi and spoke passionately about the importance of Guru Nanak Ji to other faiths and her family attachment to Punjab. She spoke of the many concerns of the Sikh community associated with the Sikh identity and the critical importance for Sikhs to be separately monitored at the next Census.

      She also attacked what she termed ‘secular’ extremists who were challenging the fundamental religious freedoms of people of different faiths. Sayeeda is the first Asian Shadow Minister and is expected to become the youngest person in the House of Lords when she takes her seat in October.

      Rob Marris MP, the Chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group for UK Sikhs, also spoke about the challenge to the Sikh identity in the UK and abroad and the excellent work and research done by the Sikh Federation (UK) on the Census 2011. He indicated that he had asked for a meeting with the Office for National Statistics later in the month to push the need for Sikhs to be separately monitored. The next Sikh Lobby at the UK Parliament has been planned for 30 October where an update will be given on this issue.

      However, his most vocal and thought provoking support was for the initiative being launched at the Convention and the World Sikh Summit whereby human rights violators since 1984 – Indian politicians, police officers and army personnel could and should be brought to justice when they travel abroad. He said it was the duty of all foreign governments that uphold international law to arrest and prosecute those guilty of torture and genocide. He pledged to take the matter up with the UK Government.

      John Spellar MP, the former Minister for Transport, Armed Forces and Northern Ireland who spoke at the World Sikh Summit on Monday also backed this initiative. He commented this was an excellent way to move the matter forward as it provided a practical means to highlight the significance of the human rights problem in Punjab and to ensure Sikhs get some form of justice. He said given the respect with which the UK Government hold the Sikh community they were duty bound to react positively to such an initiative.

      Gurjeet Singh
      National Press Secretary
      Sikh Federation (UK)

    10. Jasvir Kaur — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:19 am  

      HISTORIC ‘ROUND TABLE’ DISCUSSIONS AT THE WORLD SIKH SUMMIT IN LONDON

      The first World Sikh Summit took place early this week in London and was organised by the Sikh Federation (UK), the first and only Sikh political party in the UK. The Summit took place in the world famous City Hall and was supported by Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London.

      Ironically 60 years after Indian independence the main delegates were seated at a Round Table in the Main Chamber at City Hall. The purpose of the Summit was to raise awareness on the range of challenges faced by Sikhs, share best practice on how the challenges are or could be addressed, and agree a common strategy and an action plan for the future of the Sikh Nation.

      At the four hour pre-Summit meeting the seven key challenges set out below were agreed and were summarised at the Summit by Bhai Amrik Singh, Chair of the Sikh Federation (UK). It was also agreed at the pre-Summit meeting that the first three key challenges should be covered at the first World Sikh Summit in London and the others at future Summits in the next 12 months.

      1. Promoting and protecting the Sikh identity and recognition of Sikhs as a separate Qaum

      2. Securing justice abroad for human rights violations and genocide committed against Sikhs

      3. Building a stronger political lobby where we live

      4. Creating the vision, practical building blocks and administrative structure for the re-establishment of an independent sovereign Sikh State

      5. Dealing with anti-Sikh parchar i.e. Deras

      6. Securing the release of Sikh political prisoners and opposing the death penalty in India

      7. Punjab related challenges – the water crisis, the use of drugs, demographic challenge etc.

      Gurjeet Singh
      National Press Secretary
      Sikh Federation (UK)

    11. Jasvir Kaur — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:20 am  

      ACTION POINTS FROM THE WORLD SIKH SUMMIT IN LONDON

      Promoting and protecting the Sikh identity and recognition of Sikhs as a Qaum

      The three speakers regarding the first key challenge were Surinderpal Singh, (Chicago), the Vice-Chair of the World Sikh Council – America Region, Harpreet Singh, the President of the Guru Nanak Darbar Gurdwara, Dublin and President of the Irish Sikh Council and Sukhvinder Singh from the UK. Comments were then taken from other delegates at the Summit. The actions that emerged with regards to the first key challenge are set out below:

      1) The need to engage with national Governments and international institutions – EU Parliament and EU Commission, United Nations etc. to:

      - raise awareness about the Sikh articles of faith;
      - introduce an agreed International Code of Practice for Sikh articles of faith; and
      - seek recognition of the Sikhs as a Qaum.

      2) Work towards establishing a 25-member International Sikh Advisory Board (ISAB) that can work with national Governments and international institutions to work on the above. Those who have been approached in North America to nominate individuals as they work on the Sikh identity issue include the following organisations – World Sikh Council – America Region, Sikh Coalition, SALDEF, America Gurdwara Prabandakh Committee, United Sikhs, Sikh Youth of America, World Sikh Organisation, United Sikh Federation, Ontario Gurdwara Councils, Canadian Organisation of Sikh Students (COSS).

      Those in the process of being approached in the UK to nominate individuals as they work on the Sikh identity issue include - Sikh Federation (UK), Network of Sikh Organisations, National Council of Gurdwaras, Sikh Womens’ Alliance, Young Sikhs (UK), British Sikh Consultative Forum, British Sikh Federation and Sikhs in England. Organisations approached in Europe and other countries include the Irish Sikh Council, Italy Sikh Council and Sikh Federation of Australia.

      Representatives from Punjab will also be on the ISAB. In addition, to the 25-member ISAB, members will be co-opted from each country, in particular European countries not represented on the core group of the ISAB. An ad hoc group is expected to be established who can start work on the international code of practice.

      Prosecution of those involved in genocide and torture

      The three speakers regarding the second key challenge were Harinder Singh Khalsa, a member of the Khalsa Action Committee, and the former Ambassador for Norway, Kavneet Singh (Philadelphia), head of the World Sikh Council sub-committee for human rights and Dabinderjit Singh from the UK. Comments were then taken from other delegates at the Summit. The actions that emerged with regards to the second key challenge are set out below:

      1) A 1984 Justice and Freedom Centre is being opened in the UK. Similar initiatives are expected in the USA and Canada.

      2) A database of wanted human rights violators is being established and within 12 months information and witness statements are expected to be collected for up to 500 Indian politicians, police officers, army personnel and ‘cats’. Cases will then be prepared against a carefully selected group where prosecutions are likely to be successful and presented to a number of foreign governments for them to take forward when the relevant individuals enter their jurisdiction.

      Early indications in the UK and Europe where progress has been greatest is if the commitments that have been given at meetings with politicians and officials are kept a number of Indian politicians and hundreds of police officers, army personnel and ‘cats’ could face the real prospect of imprisonment when they travel abroad.

      The early reaction to this announcement has already been one of fear. As one MP remarked: ‘When governments are in possession of the evidence that has been promised how many Indian politicians, police officers, army personnel and ‘cats’ that have the blood of Sikhs on their hands will risk travelling abroad.’

      3) A coalition of Sikh lawyers from the UK, Canada, USA and other countries will be tasked with analysing the evidence collected and select cases where prosecutions are likely to be most successful. Several leading human rights organisations have agreed to work with the international Sikh community to ensure what is proposed can help bring some justice to the victims of torture and genocide.

      Since the announcement other minority groups and civil and human rights groups from India have been in contact with the Sikh Federation (UK) to express an interest in feeding into the evidence gathering process as well as the supply of information on those traveling abroad.

      Building a stronger political lobby where we live

      Narinderjit Singh of the Sikh Federation (UK) spoke regarding the last of the three challenges tackled at the first World Sikh Summit. Comments were then taken from other delegates at the Summit. The actions that emerged with regards to the third key challenge are set out below:

      1) In September 2001 a Sikh Agenda for the UK Government was developed and has been successfully used to promote issues of concern to the Sikh community. In Canada the Sikh Federation (UK) helped develop a draft agenda earlier this year that attracted considerable national media interest. The plan is the agenda will be finalised and released before the next national elections expected in less than a year. There have also been discussions regarding a Sikh Agenda for the US Government that it is hoped will be developed and released before the next Presidential elections. The plan is for the draft agenda to be produced in time for the next Summit that is due to take place in the US in December or January.

      2) Sikhs in each country were urged to develop there national Sikh Lobby Networks e.g. Sikh Lobby Network (Canada), Sikh Lobby Network (USA) that feed into the World Sikh Lobby Network. The logic is the administrative set up for the re-establishment of an independent sovereign Sikh State, Khalistan will materialise from this set up.

      Progress against the action points for all three challenges will be revisited at the next Summit in the US in December or January.

      Gurjeet Singh
      National Press Secretary
      Sikh Federation (UK)

    12. Jagdeep — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:47 pm  

      Bunch of clowns. Hey Jasvir Kaur, when the truth emerges about the Sikh Federation I’m going to put some press releases out. I’m personally going to write to every MP and journalist in the country about these irrelevant wannabes.

      Livingstone has no need to talk to The Sikh Federation, while it could be argued that Israel should talk to Hamas for realpolitik reasons. Necessity- that is the difference.

      You’re comparing the SF with Hamas? What have you been drinking?

    13. Jagdeep — on 22nd September, 2007 at 9:51 pm  

      2) Sikhs in each country were urged to develop there national Sikh Lobby Networks e.g. Sikh Lobby Network (Canada), Sikh Lobby Network (USA) that feed into the World Sikh Lobby Network.

      hahaha —- you illiterate morons, what lobbying are you going to do when you can’t even write English properly you bunch of blowhard idiots. It’s ‘their’, not ‘there’!

      What a clown Sayeeda Warsi is. Add her to the list of Muslims associated with the major parties who act as saps towards these dyslexic communalist buffoons along with the preposterous Lord Ahmed of Rotherham. Wind your neck in Warsi.

    14. Jagdeep — on 22nd September, 2007 at 10:04 pm  

      Check your e-mail Sunny.

    15. Jasvir Kaur — on 23rd September, 2007 at 10:08 am  

      Jagdeep thank you for pointing out the one typo in four Press Releases issued by the Sikh Federation (UK).

      Those reading this blog will make up their own minds on who is an ‘illiterate moron’ or ‘dyslexic communalist buffoon’ quoting your own words.

      Why are you upset about the work of the Sikh Federation (UK)? Perhaps you would be better writing to MPs about some of the issues that concern Sikhs - assuming you are a Sikh concerned with such issues.

      Listen to what Sayeeda Warsi and Rob Marris MP had to say by visiting http://www.gurdarbar.com

      The fourth Sikh Fedetration (UK) highlights booklet also makes interesting reading. See link to outside and inside cover. You will want to make particular note of what leading politicians say on the inside of the front cover.

    16. Jasvir Kaur — on 23rd September, 2007 at 2:07 pm  

      Apologies forgot to add the link:

      http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=30496&hl=highlights+booklet

    17. Jagdeep — on 23rd September, 2007 at 2:46 pm  

      Those reading this blog will make up their own minds on who is an ‘illiterate moron’ or ‘dyslexic communalist buffoon’ quoting your own words

      Don’t worry JagtarSinghKhalsa, uhhh sorry I mean ‘Jasvir Kaur’, the readers of this blog are really intelligent and know exactly what is what and who is what.

    18. Leon — on 23rd September, 2007 at 5:34 pm  

      Jasvir, do you think you could actually engage with us here rather than using us as some kind of press service to distribute your press releases..?

    19. Neet — on 23rd September, 2007 at 11:00 pm  

      I was one of the 10,000 attending the Sikh Convention and am glad that events like this take place. Even if some of those commenting on this thread don’t care for taking action against human rights violations, monitoring of Sikhs or freedom of expression it doesn’t really matter. Clearly the numbers speak for themselves, if a convention can attract 10,000 then the Sikh Federation are representing Sikhs(whether you like it or not). For a so-called ‘liberal’ site people on here do tend to make right-wingsque stereotypes; i.e. faith based organisation=extremist. You’d truly make the Daily Mail proud.

    20. Leon — on 23rd September, 2007 at 11:38 pm  

      Are those numbers attending independently verified? Or did you just pluck it out of the air along with your lazy generalisations about this site and it’s varied views on faith based organisations?

    21. Sukhi — on 24th September, 2007 at 12:10 am  

      There were a maximum of 400 people at the ‘conference’, a number of those people had just walked in off the street. These people are out and out liars who exaggerate the attendance of their ‘meetings’ to appear big and important. It seems like they have decided on this figure and think people will believe them if they say it enough times. It’s actually really laughable. And the Sikh Federation is a right wing organistion, as well as being fantasists.

    22. Neet — on 24th September, 2007 at 12:14 am  

      Oh apologies Leon, I didn’t have time to commission Mori to do an official count of the sangat (congregation); which of course should have been the main priority for the event. But unlike the majority on this thread I was actually there and could see first hand how many Sikhs had come. I tell you what instead of basing your opinion on unfounded slander why don’t you actually come to one of the events, see the diverse range of Sikhs (young, old, men, women, Gursikh and not) that are there and the issues that are raised and discussed. Who knows you might actually be able to form your own opinion rather than eating the spoon-fed tripe you’re given on some of these threads.

    23. Sukhi — on 24th September, 2007 at 12:15 am  

      400 people out of a Sikh population of perhaps 500,000; you do the maths on how relevant they are. No wonder they have neurosis on their significance and make up numbers in order for them to puff themselves up like a blowfish. They use all the same rhetorical nonsense when criticised or scrutinised, same as the Muslim organisations with right wing agendas and Hindu organisations with right wing agendas. A communalist right wing organisation who tell lies and exagerrate the attendance at their meetings because they are in reality so tiny.

    24. Sukhi — on 24th September, 2007 at 12:17 am  

      I talked to people who were there to observe the event. I also have verification with photographs Neet. Stop lying.

    25. Sukhi — on 24th September, 2007 at 12:19 am  

      rather than eating the spoon-fed tripe you’re given on some of these threads.

      Spoon feeding tripe is the modus operandi of the SF. Just look at the press releases that are pasted here on this thread. And the touchiness, paranoia and defensiveness of it all (slander indeed)

    26. Sunny — on 24th September, 2007 at 1:33 am  

      i.e. faith based organisation=extremist.

      You mean a faith based organisation obsessed with Sikh separatism.

      I was one of the 10,000 attending the Sikh Convention

      Give me a break please. It was an indoor conference, the videos verified it. And indoor venues with a 10,000 capacity aren’t so easily available. Sayeeda Warsi was at addressing people at a Gurudwara, not Wembley stadium.

    27. KSingh — on 24th September, 2007 at 7:18 am  

      I would not depend on the Havelock Road Gurdwara for information, some of the committee had to explain to the congregation recently why they performed bizzare rituals at RSS/VHP functions at Wembley. Have a look on Youtube for the pictures

      The conventions and rallies do attract thousands, on the 20th Anniversary of the attack on the Golden Temple 2004 20,000 Sikhs turned out in central London.
      Sikhs are concerned about human rights so will turn out in numbers for these events.

    28. curious? — on 24th September, 2007 at 10:15 pm  

      sunny you racist

    29. Sunny — on 24th September, 2007 at 10:32 pm  

      n the 20th Anniversary of the attack on the Golden Temple 2004 20,000 Sikhs turned out in central London.

      Sure, and I would have gone to something like that in rememberance if it wasn’t annually hijacked by Khalistanis for their own ends.

    30. curious? — on 25th September, 2007 at 10:12 am  

      who would you define as khalistani’s?

    31. KSingh — on 27th September, 2007 at 4:10 pm  

      For some people, the very fact that many Sikhs (not sure about Britain, but in Canada I’d say the majority) support the idea of Sikhs standing up for themselves and demanding full human rights and support an accounting from India on its conduct towards Sikhs generally, and especially its involvement in the murder of innocent civilians and state-sponsored terrorism in Punjab.

    32. KSingh — on 27th September, 2007 at 4:26 pm  

      For some people, the very fact that many Sikhs (not sure about Britain, but in Canada I’d say the majority) support the idea of Sikhs standing up for themselves and demanding full human rights and support an accounting from India on its conduct towards Sikhs generally, and especially its involvement in the murder of innocent civilians and state-sponsored terrorism in Punjab, is somehow a sin to be condemned.

      Calling Sikhs names such as ‘nutters’ or ‘zealots’ or [insert derogation here] is par-for-the-course for folks like (I’m assuming) ‘sunny’. Sikhs are not a homogeneous entity, many different individuals support organizations like the Sikh Federation, to brand all the Sikhs attending, with one label is mental laziness at best, and an example of personal animosity and hate towards them at worst.

    33. Kulvinder — on 27th September, 2007 at 4:44 pm  

      50 billion sikhs disagree with you. You nutter.

    34. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 27th September, 2007 at 4:58 pm  

      Sikhs are not a homogeneous entity

      Although in any religous group, the nutters often are.

      TFI

    35. Dalbir — on 28th September, 2007 at 12:00 am  

      Freedom. If some Sikhs want autonomy from India, that is fine. If some Sikhs want to stay in India, that is also fine. To deny the former a platform to air their opinions and aspirations, or to play down the widely acknowledged state sponsored attacks on the Sikhs just makes you the type of facist that would have probably denied the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

      If highlighting human rights abuses makes you a “nutter” - we need more of them.

    36. Sunny — on 28th September, 2007 at 12:22 am  

      To deny the former a platform to air their opinions

      Funny you say that, since it’s usually the Khalistanis who want to shut down debates, take over Gurudwaras through force, and funnel money to India for their activities, than the rest.

      Already forgotten the big riot in Vaisakhi in Birmingham? Highlightiing human rights abuses my ass… there are much more deserving Sikh organisations who do that already.

    37. Neet — on 28th September, 2007 at 3:34 am  

      Dalbir-you’ve nailed the issue on the head. Couldn’t agree more.

      Sunny-Look at what your saying, you’re tarring all Khalistanis with the same brush. I’m sure there are loads of so-called liberal lefties that are akin to your warped perception of Khalistanis (i.e. Galloway). The reality is that the majority, particularly the youth, are concerned with human rights.

      Also would be interested to see how many Sikh organisations there are that have the political backing of all three mainstream parties (look at the link to the booklet (@ 16) and have specific aims for British Sikhs as well as human rights.

    38. Dalbir — on 29th September, 2007 at 4:34 pm  

      Sunny….

      Already forgotten the big riot in Vaisakhi in Birmingham? Highlightiing human rights abuses my ass… there are much more deserving Sikh organisations who do that already.
      —————————————-

      What has the B’ham thing got to do with any of this? I don’t know what happened there and I damn sure don’t want to hear any of your “undercover informer tips” either.

      If the current organisations highlighting human rights abuses in Punjab were sufficient we wouldn’t have the guys who organised the mass killings sitting in positions of power right now. So more attention is required to be drawn to the situation. Let the SF play whatever part they can in this.

      Here is something for you to ponder over my fiery friend.

      http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N16XrqWkLbE

    39. Sunny — on 29th September, 2007 at 6:28 pm  

      I don’t know what happened there and I damn sure don’t want to hear any of your “undercover informer tips” either.

      What would you rather hear about? the police cover-up of who got stabbed? It’s an open secret that it involved the SF, Babbar Khalsa, Shere Punjab and others.

      we wouldn’t have the guys who organised the mass killings sitting in positions of power right now.

      Oh that’s easy to explain. Most Sikh/Punjabi politicians here and in India are incompetent self-serving idiots. But that goes for most politicians in India. After all, the 2002 Gujarat riot victims haven’t got compensation either… such is the Indian way. I’m not sure how having a state run by the Khalistanis would improve things for anyone. These people can barely run Harminder Sahib.

    40. Dame Helen Mirren — on 29th September, 2007 at 10:05 pm  

      Sunny

      If you cared to read the Dalbir’s post, he is not talking of Sikh speratism. He is talking only of human rights.

      After putting your name to countless campaigns to see that Muslims/homosexuals etc obtain justice for human rights violations, why not speak up on the Sikh issue?

    41. Dame Helen Mirren — on 29th September, 2007 at 10:31 pm  

      I don’t know where else to say this, so I’ll say it on this thread.

      Riazat Butt is fast making a reputation for herself as a hack who falls flat on her face when joining a national newspaper.

      See this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2179377,00.html

      The ‘call’ to prosecute was made by an ‘aid to the Bishop of Bradford’. Big name there.

      Also, has Riazat not considered the fact that thousands of these ‘offensive’ facebook groups exist -thereby making the story a non-story.

    42. Dalbir — on 30th September, 2007 at 11:09 pm  

      ———————-
      we wouldn’t have the guys who organised the mass killings sitting in positions of power right now.

      Oh that’s easy to explain. Most Sikh/Punjabi politicians here and in India are incompetent self-serving idiots. But that goes for most politicians in India. After all, the 2002 Gujarat riot victims haven’t got compensation either… such is the Indian way. I’m not sure how having a state run by the Khalistanis would improve things for anyone. These people can barely run Harminder Sahib
      ——————————————-

      This doesn’t detract from the fact that corruption is also rampant in Indian politics. In fact it is so rampant that it looks like people have got away with mass murder.

      I’m as disgusted with organisations such as the SGPC myself, but syphoning money for selfish ends (as disgusting as it is) is a world away from orchestrating mass murder, which is essentially what some politicians did in 1984. Seeing as twenty + years later, nowt has been done and the killers can sit and scoff like you plainly saw in the video, means organisations like SF have a place.

      If India carries on like this then those Sikh separatists just might have a case.

    43. Mandeep — on 8th October, 2007 at 9:28 pm  

      I saw all the videos of the World Sikh Summit. There were barely 200 people present. Cetainly there should be protests about human rights violations.But by people who were themselves involved in supporting terrorism and killings of innocent people in India ? Oh yes, in case you didn’t know terrorists killed 21,000 people in India 1978-93.

    44. Dalbir — on 9th October, 2007 at 12:59 am  

      Ok, how many people did the government agencies kill in Panjab in that time Mandeep?

      How many of them were genuine “terrorists”, seeing as some of the people who had been “killed” in “encounters” are now resurfacing? Who were the people who were killed in their place for rewards?

      I strongly advise you to watch the link below. This guy represents the true spirit of the Khalsa. The link also gives an indication of the scale of murder taking place with government blessing. I’m wholeheartedly against ignorant, casteist fake Khalistanis myself for the record but don’t use these j.erks as an excuse to play down genocide please.

      http://www.ensaaf.org/docs/khalravideo.php

    45. Mandeep — on 9th October, 2007 at 9:00 am  

      Prof Paul Wallace of the University of Missouri says that the security forces killed some 12,000 terrorists, the South Asia Terrorism Portal http://www.http://satp.org claims that 11,000 terrorists were killed. While the majority of those killed were indeed terrorists, there were certainly innocents who were done to death.There can be condoning the killing of innocents. Even the elimination of known terrorists in fake encounters is totally illegal and morally wrong.

      The use of counter-insurgents,surrendered terrorists or intelligence moles is nothing new. The security forces used such methods for instance in Northern Ireland. Wrongs done by the govt and its security forces cannot wipe out ethnic cleansing, wholesale massacres and killing of innocents by the Khalistanis.

      As for Khalra did you know that he was an overground worker for the Babbar Khalsa and BTFK ? I do recognise that he did discover illegal cremations carried out by the police and for this he must be eulogised.However he himself was involved in killings, indirectly of course. And his figure of 25,000 cremations was wide off the mark - the investigating agency found evidence of just 10% of that number.Still if even a single innocent was killed by the police it is reprehensible.

      Can you tell me why Khalra has been disowned by his party ? He was the General Secretary of the Human Rights wing of the mainstream Akali Dal led by Badal.

      The Khalistanis aren’t just slightly crazy weirdos. They’re killers !

    46. Dalbir — on 9th October, 2007 at 9:38 pm  

      The Khalistanis aren’t just slightly crazy weirdos. They’re killers !
      ——————————

      You could say the same for those responsible for killing on the other side but I take it you believe one side is legitimised because of their official governmental status?

      Did you ever think that young men may have felt compelled to fight back against what they perceived as governmental oppression; especially when loved ones and relatives may have been slaughtered in the name of national security?

      Trying to besmirch a respectable human rights worker like Mr. Khalra is a serious cheap shot. If you can be bothered find the full version of his final speech posted earlier. Then you will clearly see he explicitly states that his efforts are not for Khalistan but for justice of those killed which included women and children. So the impression that only militant Khalistanis were killed in the Panjab conflict is plainly false.

      The way you end the last post almost suggests that the truth behind the killings is well established. I dispute that and the fact that India has denied organisations such as Amnesty International access to investigate the matter fully isn’t exactly promising. Only God knows what happened.

      I’m not in favour of war but to deny Sikhs the freedom to freely discuss a “Khalistan” is an abuse in itself. It is not like Sikhs did not have their own independent sovereign nation before. In your books are the Jews who dreamt of (for centuries) and then fought for the state of Israel also terrorists/crazy weirdos/killers?

      Yes some Khalistanis seem to be plainly of “dubious character” whose motivations were probably no more than financial gains and ego based caste aspirations. These are a disgrace to all Sikhs. But you can’t deny that some where pushed into the conflict by the worsening situation in Panjab where the politician was as guilty as the AK-47 carriers in fomenting trouble. Also given that even those responsible are now slowly admitting their underhand tactics, we cannot even be sure if some of killings you mentioned were by genuine Khalistanis and not governmental hirelings/plants. You could easily argue that the armed movement was the end result of some badly thought (or very clever) political manoeuvring, depending on perspecive. Which came first the militants or the politicians?

      How a people who historically lay at the forefront of the safety and freedom of the nation through major sacrifices, turned this way is another story that needs to be told one day.

      But in the meanwhile Mandeep please portray a more balanced/realistic picture of the situation than a simplistic “Khalistani monsters” and “beleaguered national security force” dialogue.

      All respect and that.

    47. Mandeep — on 10th October, 2007 at 4:04 pm  

      Extra-judicial killings by govt agencies cannot be condoned just as killings of innocents in the name of an ‘aspirational movement’ can never be justified. An interesting justification is given quite often for killings i.e. that it was in the form of a resistance to oppression. Let me tell you and others in the Diaspora who do not have access to the right kind of information that the first terrorist killings took place on 21st September 1981 a day after Bhindranwala’s arrest in a murder case. Gangs of motorcycle-borne gunmen shot down Hindus in Tarn Tartan and Jalandhar. What was the justification or excuse? What police or State repression was being carried out in Punjab? No, this argument does not wash at all. The 21st September incident was followed by a systematic campaign of killings, murderous intimidation and ethnic cleansing aimed at Hindus, Nirankaris, public figures, policemen, politicians in short anyone who was in Bhindranwala’s way.
      The charges leveled against Khalra by the people of his area – his own village Khalra, Narli, Bhikhiwind, Sursinghwala, Mari Meghan are also very serious. These pertain to providing information to the Babbar Khalsa and BTKF, carrying weapons and ammunition for them, identifying likely targets, in short all the tasks undertaken by an over ground worker (OGW).If you come to India I can introduce you to these people who suffered at his hands and you can then make up your mind for yourself. In any case note the company kept by his wife and political heir these days –all of them militants. I again repeat what I said earlier about his party the mainstream Akali Dal having disowned him. Why?

      Why don’t you have a look at the Human Rights Watch (HRW) report on Arms and Abuses in Indian Punjab and Kashmir? The part dealing with Punjab is available at http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-03.htm

      Let me quote from the opening lines of the Report ‘Although violent Sikh activity virtually ended in 1993 in the wake of a ruthless campaign by the government to crush separatist efforts, during the last decade Sikh militants regularly engaged in widespread armed violence, including attacks on civilians.’ For the rest please read the full document. It may come as an eye-opener to you. It certainly will shake others who may not have access to full information on the events in Punjab.

      HRW concludes with ‘It allowed militants to increase the frequency and severity of their attacks on the unarmed population, resulting in a greater number of civilian casualties, and permitted them to sustain a higher level of terror and control over the general population.’

      If there were no violence enshrined in the Khalistan movement why then did the US, UK, EU, Canada and Australia see fit to ban the organisations Babbar Khalsa International and International Sikh Youth Federation?

      IMHO there was never a peaceful movement for Khalistan. You were either with the militants fully or earmarked for elimination if you weren’t. The Khalistan movement had no legitimate, peaceful, sensible side. The violence was overpowering. Look at the number of Sikhs the Khalistanis killed in pursuit of their objectives! Even in the West they routinely use the tactics of violence and intimidation to overawe their opponents. The killing of Tara Singh Hayer and the beating of Ujjal Dosanjh are cases in point.

      Khalistanis and their supporters have always been pointing fingers at the govt for giving a bad name to their movement by orchestrating killings or organizing them through hirelings as you say. Fair enough. But why are killings ascribed to terrorists by the govt and to govt agencies never condemned by the Khalistanis? Why is no sympathy ever expressed for these innocents? Why are these incidents never investigated in the same manner as excesses by the security forces? These people if they were killed by govt agencies should be martyrs for the Khalistanis shouldn’t they? How come if Mr. A who is alleged to be a terrorist is eliminated by the police there are all kinds of objections to the manner of his killing? Evidence pours in as to how he was an innocent gunned down in cold blood by the brutal police. But none when a group of Hindus is shot down in cold blood by a group of terrorists? How come none of the desi human rights bodies which specialize in investigating human rights abuses by the police and usually come up with evidence never take up cases of killings by terrorists much less unearth evidence that the security forces actually carried them out ?

      Why did the Khalistan movement fail in Punjab? Have you ever pondered over the reasons for the collapse of militancy? The foremost reason is that the Sikh masses never, ever supported Khalistan or a separatist movement in any form. The majority was silent as they always are but once the terrorists started attacking, plundering and looting them the common people came forward and gave information to the police about the whereabouts of terrorists. Punjab was a very different kind of insurgency, something like Northern Ireland. There was no redoubt, mountain or jungle fastness where the insurgents could hide. The guerrilla had to be the fish in the sea of the people as Mao enjoined. The Punjab terrorists had to hide among the people. It was the people who gave them up by informing the police. That speaks volumes for the level of support enjoyed by the movement among the people. Currently Khalistan is an issue for the Diaspora not Indian Sikhs.

      Certainly there were grey areas in the history of Punjab 1978-93 but at the end of the day what was the whole issue about? The issues were peace, progress, stability and security. And those goals could not be realized through violence, separatism, hatred, terrorism or the Khalistan movement. .

    48. Dalbir — on 10th October, 2007 at 6:06 pm  

      Firstly and foremost I am not here to defend people who kill innocent Joe Public for whatever cause, they are scum. Whoever they are.

      —————————
      -The charges leveled against Khalra by the people of his area – his own village Khalra, Narli, Bhikhiwind, Sursinghwala, Mari Meghan are also very serious. These pertain to providing information to the Babbar Khalsa and BTKF, carrying weapons and ammunition for them, identifying likely targets, in short all the tasks undertaken by an over ground worker (OGW).If you come to India I can introduce you to these people who suffered at his hands and you can then make up your mind for yourself. In any case note the company kept by his wife and political heir these days –all of them militants. I again repeat what I said earlier about his party the mainstream Akali Dal having disowned him. Why?
      ———————-

      I would say being disowned by a corrupt party such as the Akali Dal is a ringing endorsement in itself. These guys are basically a corrupt gang of Jat landowners whose only interest with Sikhs is a caste based selfish one in the political and financial arenas.

      Funny how you seem to be suggesting I accept the comments by various people against Khalra. Whilst India parades a butcher like KPS Gill around who was directly implicated in his torture and murder and God knows what else.

      You make a comment about the company kept by Mrs. Khalra - do you think the company of the other side is more wholesome?

      As for your comments about “militants”. There are uncomfortable questions that do need to be pondered over regarding the nature of the Khalsa. Historically the antecedents of this group was a people’s revolutionary army. So your simplfying the issue by throwing around the “militant” label doesn’t make sense to me. The question is whether some of them were fighting for a just cause and whether genuine oppression was taking place. Even if I take your statement about the 1981 statement at face value, you can’t detach this from the protection given to the killers of the 1978 AKJ incident, which most people feel is the true genesis of the conflict. So it was indeed the government of the time that initiated the cycles of killings through their actions (or rather inaction.)

      ————————————
      -Khalistanis and their supporters have always been pointing fingers at the govt for giving a bad name to their movement by orchestrating killings or organizing them through hirelings as you say. Fair enough. But why are killings ascribed to terrorists by the govt and to govt agencies never condemned by the Khalistanis? Why is no sympathy ever expressed for these innocents? Why are these incidents never investigated in the same manner as excesses by the security forces?
      ————————————-

      You make me laugh here. Like the killings of the Delhi riot victims has ever been seriously investigated let alone the “militants” in the Panjab.

      ———————-
      -Why did the Khalistan movement fail in Punjab? Have you ever pondered over the reasons for the collapse of militancy? The foremost reason is that the Sikh masses never, ever supported Khalistan or a separatist movement in any form. The majority was silent as they always are but once the terrorists started attacking, plundering and looting them the common people came forward and gave information to the police about the whereabouts of terrorists.
      ——————————-

      Or the public were tortured, brutalised and the movement infiltrated by government agents and selfish opportunists. Do you deny that the notion of Khalistan attracted quite wide support in the early 80s?

      I think that the fact that Sikhs did recently have a sovereign state of their own also plays a part in this. It is natural for a people to want to rule and govern themselves. Even if they are not prepared for this and don’t fully understand what is involved.

      India had the option for some devolution of power and a few token gestures to keep Sikhs happy (Anandpur Resolution) but instead took the dark route. Some of the Sikh leadership equally need to be condemned for their activities.

    49. Dalbir — on 18th October, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

      “Sikh Nutters”

      India condemned over Sikh ‘missing thousands’

      Randeep Ramesh in New Delhi
      Thursday October 18, 2007
      The Guardian

      The families of thousands of civilians “disappeared” during the Indian government’s violent suppression of a campaign for a Sikh homeland more than a decade ago are still waiting for perpetrators of the crimes to be brought to justice, human rights monitors have warned.

      In a new report entitled Protecting the Killers, Human Rights Watch says the Indian government needs to “hold accountable members of its security forces who killed and tortured thousands of Sikhs” during counter-insurgency operations in Punjab that ended only in 1995.

      continued

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,,2193909,00.html

    50. Dalbir — on 20th October, 2007 at 11:06 pm  

      Why doesn’t Sunny give the oppression that Sikhs have endured the same attention he seems to give to every other headline grabbing cause he goes on about?

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