We’re planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary’s Remembrance day demo


by Sunny
5th November, 2011 at 10:54 am    

Extremist Muslim group Muslims Against Crusades are planning their annual Remembrance Day stunt again, on 11th November.

The Daily Mail, which always reports on their actions in advance, says the demo, which will mock the charity for injured soldiers Help for Heroes, is due to take place outside the Royal Albert Hall, the same location where a poppy was burned last year.

The Muslims Against Crusades protesters, who have sought permission from police to hold the rally, aim to chant and disrupt the minute’s silence held in honour of the war dead.

Like last time – when we stood against them at their 9/11 demo – a group of us are organising a little protest against Choudhary and his band of monkeys on Nov 11th.

Come down and join us on the day! More details will be posted soon.


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  1. sunny hundal

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  2. Ambrosine Shitrit

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  3. Jay Nathan

    “@sunny_hundal: Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/mkWMQ5g6”


  4. Roger Bliss

    RT @sunny_hundal: We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/upFyWDfj


  5. james andrews

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  6. Nemesis Republic

    RT @sunny_hundal: We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/6fKnNyIG #edl #bnp #Muslims against #MAC


  7. Amangham

    @NemesisRepublic http://t.co/CqSUb8Zd < it is all a mad plot to confuse #edl – I thought NemII was organizing one 'organizing' ha ha!


  8. Holly Dustin

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  9. Lizzy Willow

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  10. Nemesis Republic

    RT @sunny_hundal: We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/6fKnNyIG


  11. Kashmir

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  12. Roger Thornhill

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/RUxQAGXR // excellent news


  13. Eli Tabori

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  14. Harry Mohammed

    RT @sunny_hundal: We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/Fnul572I


  15. Noxi

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/cccyFYsK


  16. Akeela Ahmed

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  17. PlatoSays

    RT @sunny_hundal: We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/imLuwAxQ


  18. Janet Graham

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  19. Richard Exell

    … and Sunny Hundal shows another way to take our debt to the dead seriously http://t.co/dZosKQx1


  20. sunny hundal

    SO THEN WHO'S UP FOR A DIRTY GREAT SCRAP WITH ANJEM CHOUDHARY TOMORROW? http://t.co/CzHlRuSJ&quot;


  21. Stephen Newton

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  22. Muhammad

    Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/vXSaphTW


  23. Kev Tomes

    I'm trying to be political and stuff… How am I doing? http://t.co/zp3HsfYW


  24. Fay

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : We're planning to disrupt Anjem Choudhary's Remembrance day demo http://t.co/RUxQAGXR // excellent news




  1. Mohammed — on 5th November, 2011 at 11:05 am  

    Poppy Fascism:

    “…and his band of monkeys” – that’s probably a little unnecessary.

    People have the right to choose to wear, not wear, support or protest the British Foreign Legion’s Poppy Appeal.

    Remembrance is a personal act.

    At its best, it should promote peace in the world, a cessation of hostilities and commemoration of all loss of life regardless of race, colour or creed. Sadly, this is not what the current Poppy Appeal is about and we should acknowledge that focus has shifted in recent years to include an active supporting role in current wars of aggression, not merely veterans and families from the two world wars.

    Regardless of our personal views and beliefs, we have a responsibility to recognise that facts surrounding such fundraising and marketing on behalf of an organisation like the Royal British Legion is politically or philosophically controversial.

    Fair and reasonable debate should never be excluded from society.

    Military and political support on behalf of an external organisation with propagating a set of values should be avoided at all costs.

    MA

  2. Vincemeat — on 5th November, 2011 at 1:12 pm  

    Although I agree with the sentiment, sunny, I do not think calling them Monkeys is either halpful or appropriate.

  3. Kev T — on 5th November, 2011 at 2:57 pm  

    What..? Do you mean the EDL and BNP protests are not enough? That we might need people who are not drunken, delusioned nutters to counter this stunt by Choudray and his half-a-minibus worth of sycophants?

    I say: Bollocks to any form of anti-demo. Just turning up to, and adding to the numbers of,those people who remember this date for its true meaning is a much larger and far more potent anti-protest than turning up with the specific reason for giving Choudray (and by extension the EDL/BNP) reason to exist.

    While many may have issues with the ‘Ignore it and it’ll go away’ line of dealing with the EDL/MDL issue, I believe doing it on powerful dates like 11/11 and 7/11 shows reverence to the events, than to those who will exploit the event for their own bigoted purposes.

  4. Sarah AB — on 5th November, 2011 at 7:06 pm  

    @Mohammed – debates along the lines you mention seem fine – or you can wear a white poppy – but MAC goes about things in an incredibly offensive way and it seems a good idea to me that opposition isn’t limited to the EDL.

  5. Richard Puller — on 5th November, 2011 at 9:55 pm  

    As a member of the EDL I’m pleased that members of the general public and other groups are coming out to protest againstt the disgraceful actions of Choudrey and MAC. We fully appreciate people’s rights to free speech and lawful protest but this demonstration by Islamic extremists goes far beyond that. And for all those that say we should ignore Muslims against Crusades I would like to remind you of a famous quote ‘all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing’.

  6. Lamia — on 6th November, 2011 at 1:16 am  

    @ Mohammed

    “People have the right to choose to wear, not wear, support or protest the British Foreign Legion’s Poppy Appeal.”

    Remembrance Day is not organised by the British Legion or its poppy appeal. It is a moment of national remembrance of our war dead. In the case of many – perhaps most – British families that includes relatives. To disrupt the commemoration is a horrible insult and a grotesque provocation. It is akin to jeering at mourners at a funeral.

    I have no problem with Choudary and co disagreeing with Remembrance Day. I have a serious problem with them trying to publicly disrupt other people’s marking of a solemn national occasion. They should not be allowed to do so, and I hope the police will arrest them if they try. Choudary has single-handedly stirred up a huge amount of tension and hatred in this country, with his stunts being the main ‘inspiration’ for the EDL. The police would be foolish to let this go ahead.

  7. KB Player — on 6th November, 2011 at 1:54 am  

    Choudary has single-handedly stirred up a huge amount of tension and hatred in this country, with his stunts being the main ‘inspiration’ for the EDL.

    Choudary is a total shit, but the amount of media coverage he gets is grotesque. The Daily Telegraph, who really should know better, has given him acres of coverage. Why? All in the cause of sensation. He’s the equivalent of the naked rambler.

    As others point out, he couldn’t get a cricket team together with his number of followers. He’s our version of the Phelps clown in the USA – he announces a stunt and the media report it, which must break the hearts of other small political groups looking for media attention. He hinted he was going to do something at Wootton Bassett – and immediately he got headlines, though eventually he did sod all. I loathe the way the media leaps to his bait – and how the EDL has done so as well.

    I agree with Kev T he should be strenuously ignored.

  8. Mohammed — on 6th November, 2011 at 3:17 am  

    @Lamia – with all respect, it’s a good idea to do some homework on the Poppy Appeal.

    The Royal British Legion spends around £50m in expenditure on supporting personnel in theatres of conflict today. That includes Iraq and Afghanistan, to be 100% clear.

    A few years ago, there was a disgraceful piece of political, propagandised opportunism – as the last of our first / second WW survivors were passing away (including my grandfather) the RBL took the decision to include Iraq and Afghnistan in the current fundraising and marketing appeals. 1 million dead and 4 million displaced in Iraq, Abu Ghraib and Fallujah…we had millions protesting and our Poppies are now funding the support mechanisms?

    No, absolutely. You couldn’t be more wrong, its not about national Remembrance. While docile ignorant masses wander thoughtlessly into Remembrance Day with their poppies thinking it’s about honouring our war dead, they are so wrong. Far from it, the whole and entire process from start to finish is to maintain the public consciousness of a war mongering nation. Without our arms trades, acts of genocide and global terrorism, where would the UK be exactly?

    All this should perhaps instead be shown on an episode of The Real Hustle – the scam where an entire nation, trading on the memory and good will of previous generations who fought genuinely defensive conflicts against Nazi totalitarianism, became utter idiots and failed to recognise 4th generation warfare, war crimes and brutal acts of invasion and aggression…

    …we just chucked them all in the same melting pot. Why? Because it gives us a headache to think to much.

    Well what can you say? Back to the X Factor and Strictly eh…

    And in the meanwhile the EDL are rubbing their hands that they have muddied the waters so much that we see screaming Muslims and run to anti-protest, without thinking for a second: actually, I don’t like what you’re saying, you have some fair points though, but I RESPECT your right to protest.

    Knee jerk reactions are not what we need. How about some common sense to combat the Poppy Fascism?

  9. Optimist — on 6th November, 2011 at 11:42 am  

    Richard Puller @5

    The emphasis is on the ‘good men’ and NOT the racist scum like the EDL !

  10. Lamia — on 6th November, 2011 at 1:06 pm  

    “No, absolutely. You couldn’t be more wrong, its not about national Remembrance. While docile ignorant masses wander thoughtlessly into Remembrance Day with their poppies thinking it’s about honouring our war dead, they are so wrong.”

    Your contempt for your fellow citizens and the history of this nation shines through. You are evidently a bigot, a racist and a fascist.

  11. J to the T — on 6th November, 2011 at 1:52 pm  

    Richard Puller: “As a member of the EDL”

    Really? Well perhaps you can tell us all your membership number then? How much subscription was? Where to join? Provide an image of your membership card?

    If not, then one might suspect you are here under false pretences with little actual knowledge of the organisation you purport to represent.

  12. J to the T — on 6th November, 2011 at 1:52 pm  

    Optimist: “The emphasis is on the ‘good men’ and NOT the racist scum like the EDL”

    Is that really all you are capable of? Hysterical abusive screaming? How do you think this will solve anything?

    Are you UAF? Why are you so ashamed to answer?

  13. J to the T — on 6th November, 2011 at 2:07 pm  

    Mohammed: ” its not about national Remembrance … is to maintain the public consciousness of a war mongering nation”

    Total rubbish, spouted by someone who has clearly never served a day in his life.

    Most British people did not and do not support the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan (and Libya) but do recognise that soldiers go where soldiers are sent. That is their business. They also recognise that these soldiers face maiming and death for doing their duty and do so with high standards of professionalism.

    But moreover they also recognise that if anyone were to attack this country or its sovereign territory, that these soldiers would be there to do whatever it cost them personally in order to defend us.

    As they have so many times in the past.

    British people are rightly proud of their armed forces and are rightly open about supporting them. People that attack them are alien to us, ignorant of our history and our intense bond and are purely unnecessary malcontents:

    No one asked for them to come here, no one needs them to remain. Go and be wherever it is that the majority people collide with their values, and stop expecting the values of the majority of people in the country they reside should conform to theirs.

    Burning a poppy in this country is the equivalent to most people of burning a Qur’?n in a Islamic country.

    So tell me Mohammed, and lets be honest, how do you feel about people that burn the Qur’?n? Or depict the Prophet? Or mock the Prophet?

  14. damon — on 6th November, 2011 at 5:19 pm  

    I was always somewhat against the (so called) ”poppy fascism” myself. And it certainly lends support to the modern British Army and it’s overseas wars today.
    I’m completely against any kinds of protests at commemorations, but at the same time, they do help hide the brutality of what our armed forces have been involved in. In Belfast here, half the population would look on them as having been brutal occupiers in Northern Ireland, and the (local) Royal Irish Regiment are banned from having their homecoming parades in Belfast, and they have to go to towns where the population is more Unionist and supportive.

    Also, watching Match of the Day last night, several clubs had a minute’s silence and had military people come out on to the pitch before the game. And it does smack somewhat of ”institutionalised militarism”.

    All that said, Choudary is a complete little git – but doesn’t he hang out in Tower Hamlets, down New Road or somewhere? The place where they don’t tolerate the EDL to even set foot.

    Optimist, are you and all your UAF chums going to protest against MAC? Will there be DJ’s with sound systems? Do the people who welcome Cageprisoners to the East London Mosque wear poppys?
    I don’t wear one myself btw, as it marks you out as a protestant Unionist here.

  15. J to the T — on 6th November, 2011 at 7:44 pm  

    Damon: “poppy fascism”

    What a perfect example of the complete devaluation of the word ‘Fascist’ and its inane and routine application to anything and everything that someone, somewhere, just might be in disagreement with.

    “And it certainly lends support to the modern British Army”

    It actually lends no support whatsoever to the British Armed Forces, modern or otherwise, which is entirely financed by the HMG, if that was point.

    If your point is ‘moral’ support, then again you are wrong as most British people were against Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The support for the poppy is a sign of respect for the sense of duty and overall professionalism of the British Armed forces across all conflicts, and support for all those who have lost their lives, limbs and mind as well as support for their families.

    “In Belfast here, half the population would look on them as having been brutal occupiers in Northern Ireland”

    More then half of NI voted to remain British and all that came with it, even a year after ‘Bloody Sunday’ and two-thirds voted for peace in 1998.

    Not surprising really as the IRA killed more Catholics then the British Army in total and were particularly taken with murdering and maiming rivals to their criminal activities and passing it off as ‘community justice.’

    “it does smack somewhat of ”institutionalised militarism”

    To most British people all it really smacks of is a traditional sign of respect for those who have and do, willingly risk life and limb in the service of their country.

    “I don’t wear one myself btw, as it marks you out as a protestant Unionist here”

    Petty sectarianism, and a much better example of Fascist behaviour.

  16. damon — on 7th November, 2011 at 11:50 am  

    J to the T, I only mentioned ”poppy fascism” as it’s a term that has gone into the language. I agree that it’s rather silly, but was just refering to it in the way that it’s been talked about, like in the case of the newsreader Jon Snow.
    The poppy and Remembrance Sunday are very much entwined with the modern military. Just look at the ceremonies. I’ve been to the main London one myself and find it a very moving and solemn occasion, but you can hardly move for the military all over the place.

    I don’t agree with any protests myself, but it is quite a political commemoration. I would (at a push) say that to be publicly against it should be allowed, even if the people doing it are quite obnoxious.
    In 1992, I was with about a dozen protesters in The Strand who vocally protested when the statue of ‘Bomber’ Harris was unveiled by the Queen Mother. Was that completely out of order too? I wouldn’t do it today, but I think it was OK to do that.

    Northern Ireland is a bit out of the discussion because it’s so far removed from the debate in most of Britain. But Celtic supporters objected to the poppy on their club’s shirts last year, and whether you agree with them or not, there are thousands of Nationalists here in NI who still have a hatred towards what the British Army did during the Troubles. The army could be pretty brutal, and were racist. I know they were – and have seen them do things that would be deemed totally unacceptable if done to UK citizens in Britain. Like pointing rifles at people just walking down the street. Even if they were doing so just to use their rifle telescopes, it wouldn’t be acceptable in Tottenham.

    Im not a Unionist or a Nationalist and don’t wear the poppy or the easter lilly as I don’t want to identify myself as belonging to one side or other.

  17. AbuF — on 7th November, 2011 at 2:14 pm  

    The only bigot, racist and fascist on this thread is you, Lamia – now crawl back under your stone.

  18. fugstar — on 7th November, 2011 at 7:11 pm  

    I understand your need to go to great lengths to distinguish yourself from this clown on front of the white gaze.

    But will you be promoting rememberence day?

    I dont think its a good idea as it feeds the skewed monster of british ww2 self image (forget famine and the fact that the russians get underplayed and that the british and germans werent so different) and current imperial (though weaker) practice.

    This current generation of soldiers aren’t heroes at all. I wish they had found more gainful employment elsewhere.

  19. AbuF — on 7th November, 2011 at 7:27 pm  

    I am celebrating Great October today, running dog of the religious obscurantists. Begone, fugstar, before I set the Cheka on your ample arse.

  20. Shamit — on 7th November, 2011 at 7:40 pm  

    The British armed forces serve the orders of a democratically elected government of the United Kingdom which commands a majority in the House of Commons.

    And it is a good thing that there is civilian control of our armed forces – which remains one of the best and deserve all the kudos and support they get.

    And one must remember that our armed forces are made up of a cross section of our society from the poorest to the wealthiest of all colours and religions. And they are our neighbours, our family and our friends.

    And many of them given their lives for their country and remembering them is not supporting government policy.

    You know right now for world peace and stability, one of the things is very much needed is, getting Pakistan rid of its nuclear weapons – a state which openly sponsors terrorism with our money and a state which has failed and its military and law enforcement slowly being taken over extremists. But I am sure Mohammed would not organise a protest in front of the Pakistani Embassy. So what if Pakistan is aiding and sponsoring groups to kill British soldiers

    And that what makes his self righeous rant so disgusting and pathetic. But not surprised – when one’s world view is so blinded by religion then joker Chaudhary’s antics seem okay.

    Funny, Mohammed does not even acknowledge what a great country Britain is and how strong basic democracy is that even a loony pathetic anjem choudhary gets to pull his antics on Armistice Day.

    Yeah whatever -

  21. J to the T — on 7th November, 2011 at 8:42 pm  

    Damon: “Northern Ireland is a bit out of the discussion …”

    I agree there. It wouldn’t matter how much ‘toing and froing’ there was on this, the viewpoints are deeply entrenched. My point is that people had a choice, and still do as its built into the Good Friday agreement.

    But all the same:

    “Nationalists … what the British Army did during the Troubles …”

    Nationalist is an ironic term as most of the republican movements, especially its terror organs, were / are either Marxist or far left. And largely hypocritical gangsters and petty thieves.

    But like I said, the IRA killed more Catholics then the British Army, RUC, UVF, UFF, UDA … So they would do as well to look within.

    “The army could be pretty brutal, and were racist”

    Really? ‘The Army’ all of them? Because I served in NI, amongst other places, and I know that is complete rubbish.

    (And the Irish are not of a different race; Celt is cultural, not genetic)

    The big mistake is to use soldiers as police and think that they will behave as police, most especially elite shock troops.

    But I can tell you mate, that if the troops of pretty much any other country were in NI and had to put up with the non-stop shit we did, you really would have seen what real brutality and routine atrocities really were.

    “Like pointing rifles at people just walking down the street. Even if they were doing so just to use their rifle telescopes”

    That is not brutality. That is SOP.

    And you got it in one as to why, it was reconnaissance, and also because, funnily enough, people often fired shots at them.

    You should try being on the other end of it. You might see things differently.

    “… it wouldn’t be acceptable in Tottenham …”

    Could that be because Tottenham is not in the grip of a vicious, murderous, hate-filled sectarian civil war with multiple terrorist groups letting of bombs, sniping and whipping up riots daily?

  22. Fugstar — on 8th November, 2011 at 12:08 am  

    i think there should be counter martial recruitment propaganda run in every public space featuring this ‘help for heroes’ nonsense and a different fund seeking to truthfully reintegrate armed killers and witnesses to armed killers into society. These radicalised young and not so young people need some love, not for their delusions to be fed.

  23. damon — on 8th November, 2011 at 12:59 am  

    J to the T, I do not condemn the army, I’m just saying how many Nationalists see things. You didn’t have to be a member of the IRA or a supporter of their’s to be abused by the British army. Just try visiting a website like Politics.ie and you will read of people’s experiences at the hands of the army from Britain and their locally recruited regiment the UDR at checkpoints and the like. Catholic people being stopped at night at checkpoints on country roads have stories of abusive bigoted UDR soldiers.

    As for the ”racist” bit, I knew several soldiers from the Parachute Regiment and they were taught abusive songs to sing about the Irish and Bloody Sunday by their corprals and sergeants actually doing their basic training. Marching songs.

    But anyway, that’s slightly taking things off topic, but is as relevant in it’s way as MAC protesting about what goes on in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    I’m not anti-army particularly, but I think that there is an unhealthy culture in most armed forces. The poppy and Remembrance Sunday does brush a lot of stuff under the carpet. World War One should have never happened. It was totally pointless. At the end of WW2, discredited imperialists that had been pushed out of their Asian colonies by the Japanese, came back to subjugate the local people again. We even helped the French and Dutch out. That was pretty shameful but we never talk about it.

    What I dislike though mostly is that we never go into much detail about who it is who our forces have killed and wounded. How many people did we kill an maim in Libya? No one knows because no one bothered to stick around and look at what our bombs did. There is an arrogance that if we bomb somewhere, whoever is on the other end of it must be the enemy – and to hell with ”collateral damage”.

    I certainly wouldn’t protest on Sunday, but I think that doing so could be seen as legitimate, as our country is in denial to what it has done over the last hundred years. Most people couldn’t care less about what we did to the Mau Mau for example.

  24. AbuF — on 8th November, 2011 at 1:05 am  

    I am only surprised Lamnia, an utter loonball, has not returned to tell us how her and her strange and twisted mates, are going to fuck with us.

    But, after all, Lamia – sweetie – that is not why you fucked with us in the fist place. Right? You fucked up individual.

  25. douglas clark — on 8th November, 2011 at 2:13 am  

    AbuF,

    This site is coming under an odd range of comment recently. We are equipped to answer all questions from the extreme right and have done so in the past.

    Usually they get bored when they realise that most folk here don’t see the world their way.

    Obviously telling them that they haven’t a brain cell to rub together is a legitimate response to their weird wandering stuff. But taking them on directly is important too.

    It is worth recalling that this site is read by far more folk than comment. If these idiots wish to comment here, remember that their ideas are scoffed at by a far wider audience than the likes of me, who does comment.

    Remember you have an audience. They may be quiet but they are there.

    Incidentally, I just comment here, though I am on friendly terms with the authors on here. At least, until they tell me otherwise.

  26. AbuF — on 8th November, 2011 at 10:27 am  

    I’m not sure I understand your comment, Douglas.

    However, that could be the after-effects of a night of wildness. Who knows?

  27. Sam Jones — on 8th November, 2011 at 1:53 pm  

    ‘Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?’

    An interesting article by Robert Fisk.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

  28. Wibble — on 8th November, 2011 at 2:52 pm  

    @20 More “patriotic” (and holier) than thou…

    Must be a hangover from all time spent in the US at an impressionable age.

  29. damon — on 8th November, 2011 at 6:13 pm  

    Sam Jones, that’s a great article by Robert Fisk.

    There have been heated rows about the poppy on the radio in recent days. On the question about the England football team being banned from wearing them on saturday. And I see that on Strictly Come Dancing, sparkling jeweled poppies are part of people’s glamorous outfits.

    MAC are obviously a bunch of loonies, but there is a place for protesting about militarism. Not at the cenotaph obviously, but there is something very wrong with our national debate about wars and remembering those who died and served.

    EXCLUSIVE: Poppy ban on England kit enforced ‘in case we upset Germans’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2058356/England-poppy-ban-case-upset-Germans.html

    When protesting against MAC, what’s the right thing to do when a dozen EDL turn up and start doing the same thing? I’d much rather talk to people than all this shouting and posturing btw.

  30. Wibble — on 8th November, 2011 at 6:26 pm  

    Heh, I suspect that the Germans are a bit more mature on than that.

    Rare apology from the mail on Winterval:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-2058830/Clarifications-corrections.html

  31. Shamit — on 8th November, 2011 at 7:44 pm  

    Wibble – is that the best you can do.

    By the way I do admire many things American and what it has achieved as a nation.

    So what’s wrong with patriotism? let’s hear it please.

  32. douglas clark — on 8th November, 2011 at 11:14 pm  

    AbuF @ 26,

    However, that could be the after-effects of a night of wildness. Who knows?

    OK. The simple version is that the BNP has invaded and we are quite capable of giving them a bloody nose. There are ways and means of achieving that. For instance we could adopt your approach @ 24, or we could just argue them off the site.

    I prefer the latter.

    Where, for instance is the idiotic J for a T now? Ask the bastards questions and you get nothing back AbuF. Your way works, to an extent, but making them explain their idiocy works too.

    I prefer to point out their contradictions.

    And it might not be ‘Live at the Appollo’ but you do have an audience and it is them you are trying to effect, not the idiot that offended you. Anyway:

    ________________________________

    I am very fond of the way this site conducts itself. It is an open forum for open people and it is the open people that moderate it, in a general sense. Obviously there are moderators too, but you’d be amazed how rarely they have actually banned anyone. Apparently I wrote the second ever post on this site, and I’m still here and I don’t take prisoners.

    This is the site that took on the BNP and won. It may amuse you to know that when they get power we’ll be closed down as rebels and traitors to their cause. Frankly no-one outside the BNP knows why they care.

    It seems to me that people just meet each other and get on, or not, and race ain’t an issue. It doesn’t require anyone else’s opinion, least that of the BNP.

    I am sick fed up with the idea that a man/woman having a relationship with a man/woman from a different, or indeed identical, background gets some ignorant fucks capable of doing them harm. The nosey boys of the BNP come to mind. They are scum. I am not a little against that, I am completely against it.

    That’s just me AbuF.

    I am jealous of your night of wildness. Ah!, I remember all those years ago………

  33. douglas clark — on 8th November, 2011 at 11:35 pm  

    Live at the Appollo, no that’s not it, Apollo, ahhh…..

    Bloody hell, these Greeks. They’ll be collapsing the Euro next.

  34. damon — on 9th November, 2011 at 2:15 am  

    More puff pieces about the EDL I see.

    Wouldn’t it be worth trying to talk to these MAC people? There was a blog article by Brendan O’Neill in the Telegraph today, with the title: ”Mohammed-lovers and Mohammed-mockers are becoming more and more parasitical on one another.”

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100116236/mohammed-lovers-and-mohammed-mockers-are-becoming-more-and-more-parasitical-on-one-another/

    I thought it was the kind of article that you could print out and hand over to a few of the MAC people and ask them what they think of it.

    I did a link to it on Harry’s Place because I thought it was very much speaking about them too. The French magazine ‘Charlie Hebdo’ which got firebombed was really stupid by the look of it’s front covers.
    It’s also the kind of thing you might try to talk about with any passing EDL supporters who turned up.

    But things are so polarised these days with people just prefering to shout at each other from behind a line of police that it probably can’t happen.

  35. Sarah AB — on 9th November, 2011 at 8:08 am  

    damon – I agree about the ‘parasitical’ point in relation to the EDL and MAC which is why I’m inclined to like the idea of a ‘middle way’ demo. But I don’t know how you can say that Charlie Hebdo was ‘really stupid’ and I don’t they fit into this two way parasitism model.

    I’ll begin by noting that on HP I posted on Charlie Hebdo very quickly and said I thought the cover looked as though it was trying to wind Muslims up rather than make a telling point.

    I think I was probably wrong to do this – it was the wrong time to do anything other than a ‘we are all Charlie Hebdo’ post and I also think I misjudged the spirit in which the Charlie Hebdo cartoons were intended, now I’ve looked into them more. It’s difficult to get the right balance on this one but I ended up writing

    “But although I don’t think we should allow violence to stop us satirising or criticising any religion, I also don’t think we should allow such actions to stop us attending (though we don’t have to, and shouldn’t legislate to make it compulsory) to others’ sensitivities.”

  36. damon — on 9th November, 2011 at 12:00 pm  

    Sarah, the way I read it, it sounded more like MAC and Harry’s Place that O’Neill would have been talking about. The EDL are far too wacky and out on a limb to be taken at all seriously.
    I certainly don’t think that we should respond with ‘we are all Charlie Hebdo’ as it was probably just a couple of idiots with a petrol bomb that burned the magazine’s offices.
    I don’t speak French, so I could only go on the front covers, and they did seem pretty juvenile.

    There’s just been another of those annoying morning radio phone in programmes about the Poppy and the England football match at the weekend. With callers saying it was a disgrace and David Cameron saying so too.

    Then in the news bulletin they just mention this in passing and I know how some people who are very concerned with muslim lives being lost today will thinking of the radio programme about poppies on football shirts.

    (Reuters) – Afghan and NATO-led troops killed 50 to 60 Taliban fighters during an attack by insurgents on a base in a volatile southeastern Afghan province near the border with Pakistan, a provincial government spokesman said on Wednesday.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-afghanistan-taliban-idUSTRE7A81SA20111109

    You can be sure that if you asked the people attending remembrance services, they will mostly be blissfully unaware that this even happened on wednesday.

  37. THResident — on 9th November, 2011 at 1:53 pm  

    damon,

    “All that said, Choudary is a complete little git – but doesn’t he hang out in Tower Hamlets, down New Road or somewhere?”

    That my friend is bollocks.

    “The place where they don’t tolerate the EDL to even set foot.”

    This is not entirely true.

    Sums you up really, half-truths and assumptions fed by bollocks. You’re more greasy than a PFC (do you know what a PFC is?)

    (Just to note, I live within 100m of New Road)

  38. Wibble — on 9th November, 2011 at 2:22 pm  

    Shamit – the problem is your try-too-hard, over-the-top, US-style patriotism; that, and your sneery pomposity.

  39. Sarah AB — on 9th November, 2011 at 2:32 pm  

    damon – I don’t fully follow the Afghanistan point, but about Charlie Hebdo – I reacted against the cover when I saw it *before* the bomb. But I didn’t quite appreciate, at that point, where the magazine was coming from – I thought its intentions were a bit ‘Daily Star’, though of course I only thought that was something to grumble about, not a reason to bomb it. I found it useful following Andrew Coates’ coverage as he knows CH well and recontextualised my sense of the cartoons within French anti-clericalism.

    I don’t suppose anyone knows if the bomb was just one person’s idea, or if a group was behind it. Even if it was a group that doesn’t mean it was a representative group. But even those who most certainly don’t speak for anyone but themselves have the power to make people self censor in quite a worrying way.

  40. Boyo — on 9th November, 2011 at 3:15 pm  

    What a typically arrogant article by Fisk, universalising his opinions as usual – what does he know about the feelings of the rest of us “pathetic” little people?

    In any case @8 Mohammed, I don’t agree with the criticism of you by others, but I do think you miss the point somewhat…

    The poppy springs from the sacrifices the citizen soldiers of our society have made over the generations, including those of the Commonwealth. This matters because, without wishing to open an old argument on PP, it is part of the story of what modern Britain is.

    You can’t pick and choose wars – the poppy stands for the sacrifices in every war that have led to this society, and that includes more recent mistakes. There were plenty who opposed the war against fascism, plenty who would have opposed a war against Stalinism had it come. Who is to say who is right or wrong, only that men and women from our society sacrifice their lives in our name. That’s what the poppy is for and why it should be worn with pride.

  41. damon — on 9th November, 2011 at 3:44 pm  

    THResident – you have to be more specific to have any valid point.
    When I said… ”but doesn’t he hang out in Tower Hamlets, down New Road or somewhere?” – did you not see the question mark? I don’t know – and it’s one of those things in ‘the gap’ that exists between the coverage PP does, where it prefers to go after easy targets like the EDL and Choudary, and the rather obsessive Harry’s Place stuff and Ted Jeory. I don’t know how close the Choudary brothers are. Do you? Please tell us. It’s Jeory who tells us the brother has the printing press on New Road, Whitechapel.
    http://trialbyjeory.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/anjem-choudary-and-bin-laden/

    And I don’t know what a PFC is. But the problem is this lack of overlap, with people chosing to ignore each other’s points and stories. HP is not an entirely credible source IMO, but they do raise a lot of stuff that shouldn’t be ignored. Jeory also raised this, which Harry’s Place cross posted:

    A dilemma for Rushanara Ali

    http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/08/a-dilemma-for-rushanara-ali/

    That’s a story I wish there was a PP investigation into. A real bit of research to find out if there was anything in that, not just more easy shots at sitting targets like the EDL etc. Who cares what Stephen Yaxley-Lennon says or thinks for pete’s sake? Is there anything of value in Jeory’s post?

  42. J to the T — on 9th November, 2011 at 8:36 pm  

    Douglas Clark: “Where, for instance is the idiotic J for a T now? Ask the bastards questions and you get nothing back”

    I’m still here and the complete opposite is true: I have posed quite a bit at you and then you go silent, seemingly unable to address any of it. What question have you ever posed at me?

    But in all honesty I am not in the least bit interested in people that behave like you anyway, life is far too short. And you seem to attach far, far more importance to yourself and your presence then anyone else does.

    You don’t even have the right idea about what an internet forum is supposed to be. You clearly think it is all about screaming at any dissenting voice till its silenced: Hence the reason abuse seems to be your first and only recourse. Add to that a disjointed, somewhat unhinged prose, and you just come over as well, frankly, a ranting nutter.

    No offence intended, no insult meant, Douglas but I am sure I am far from alone in that opinion.

    Myself, I see internet forums as a place of debate, an exchange of ideas based upon reason and evidence and a place where although anonymity can be enjoyed, mutual respect doesn’t have to be discarded as irrelevant.

    Two ears and one mouth, as they say Douglas.

  43. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2011 at 9:11 pm  

    J to the T,

    From elsewhere, in response to your nonsense:

    Answer the question. Were British soldiers who were muslims brought back in body bags? Yes or no?

    I think you know the answer.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12504162

    By the way, you wouldn’t know a fact if it kicked you in the teeth.

    And I think I do have an idea about what an internet forum is about, thanks very much.

    You lecture me on

    an exchange of ideas based upon reason and evidence

    Only in your dreams…..

    You lack reason, and you also lack evidence. Let’s be honest about this J to the T, you don’t really like people do you?

  44. J to the T — on 9th November, 2011 at 9:26 pm  

    Douglas Clark: I have just answered that in full, actually. And of course the answer demonstrates again how far off kilter you are.

    I didn’t notice it because it took you 3 days to post it, and I have a lot of living to do and little allocation for this in my day.

    As for the rest of your silly abuse, I provide nothing but evidence for all I claim, and everyone can see that, most especially in the last thread.

    It is the facts you don’t like.

    Lets be honest about that, Douglas.

    So, lets get answer to this then: How many terrorist attacks have there ever been in Scotland?

  45. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2011 at 9:26 pm  

    I should add that if you, J to the T, can come up with anything sensible as opposed to negative arguement, well, go for it.

    So far there is no evidence that you can. It is all about England as the home of WASPs and suchlike. It is not my idea of the future and, I suspect, it is not the opinion of most people that read or write here.

    That must annoy you a lot. Your ideas are frankly anathema to most of us. (I said in presumptive mode)

  46. J to the T — on 9th November, 2011 at 9:39 pm  

    Douglas Clark: “I should add that if you, J to the T, can come up with anything sensible … etc … It is all about England as the home of WASPs and suchlike … etc … That must annoy you a lot …”

    Just pure fantasy, strawmen and Ad Hom nonsense. Where do you pull this crap from? Like I said, you just come over as a ranting nutter.

    I have provided a full and factual reasoning (below) of why people are not only fully justified in being very concerned about the rising tide of Islam in this country, but have a duty to be.

    You really should address it in the last thread, and try doing so with facts and reason, and not more Ad Hom, strawmen and baseless sentiment: Pure fluff.

    “As I said a few threads back, Islamists are the biggest source of terrorism in this world, and by far.
    On a daily basis dozens of men, women and children are killed in the name of Islam.

    There is a significant body of support for such terrorism amongst young Muslims in Britain, and even more support still for murdering people who no longer believe in Islam, murdering gays, and atheists, and also for punishing women who have been raped, as well as shoving all women into medieval costume whether they like it or not.

    To varying degrees, majority Muslim countries are intolerant of all others: From low-level religious discrimination to sectarian attacks and murder through to outright prohibition.

    These are facts. The reality.

    Why are British people not entitled to recognise this reality and draw natural conclusions at the prospect of growing numbers?

    I also gave you that weeks and previous months horrific minimum murder and maim rate of Islamists and here are is the same for the week just gone:

    (22 -28 October) Islamists have carried out at least 46 recorded attacks, killing at least 135 people and critically injuring another 318.

    In October there was at least 170 recorded attacks, killing at least 652 people and critically injuring another 1307.

    Many of these were women and children.

    A 2007 Populus revealed the hollowness too of your previous claims that ‘Muslims don’t stand by the actions of terrorists.’ In fact the indications are very grave indeed for this country.

    Poll

    The 2001 census showed 1,591,000 Muslims resident in the UK of which 18.2% are aged 16-24 so roughly 300,000 and of those around 30,000 admire terrorist organisations that kill British soldiers and innocent civilians for the crime of being non-believers.

    Around 110,000 want a legal system that punishes and executes homosexuals; executes atheists; executes religious converters; stones adulterous women to death on the say so of her husband and one other; physically punishes women for being raped etc etc

    Around 108,000 want to murder people who no longer believe in Islam and around 222,000 view women as second class citizens to be forced into medieval costume.

    Of course these figures will actually be very significantly higher in 2011 but we can get the general flavour from these available statistics.
    These are the facts. The reality.

    And people not only have a right to be very concerned, but for their children and grandchildren’s sake, they have duty.”

  47. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2011 at 9:51 pm  

    J to the T,

    So, lets get answer to this then: How many terrorist attacks have there ever been in Scotland?

    I assume you are talking about the mad mentalist GP’s and the heroic baggage handler?

    So, one is the answer. All other attacks on the Scots have been by the English, unless you want to go back a long, long time. And you’d just see that as legitimate self interest wouldn’t you?

    It is frankly amazing that Canada, India, Pakistan, Australia. etc, etc have given up being ruled by the M25 elite and we Scots, who include Asians and Europeans and other folk are to be told by Westminster when to have an independence referendum?

    The arrogance of the SE elite knows no bounds.

    There is an exception, but largely speaking no newly independent nation, see above, wants to be ruled by the M25 wankers. There has been no movement back under your wing. Eat on that.

    I expect you will spout ‘kith and kin’ sometime soon. My kith and kin are the people I live with and they are entitled to vote in an independence referendum. And lots of them are English folk that can see the rotten deal we get, and other folk on the voters role. There is clearly a lot of persuasion to do, but, by 2014 we will be shot of you. The BNP has never been popular North of the Border.

    Just to say, if it gets rid of you, I expect the result to be 100% :-)

    Where are you going with this?

  48. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2011 at 10:02 pm  

    J to the T,

    “As I said a few threads back, Islamists are the biggest source of terrorism in this world, and by far.
    On a daily basis dozens of men, women and children are killed in the name of Islam.

    There is a significant body of support for such terrorism amongst young Muslims in Britain, and even more support still for murdering people who no longer believe in Islam, murdering gays, and atheists, and also for punishing women who have been raped, as well as shoving all women into medieval costume whether they like it or not.

    To varying degrees, majority Muslim countries are intolerant of all others: From low-level religious discrimination to sectarian attacks and murder through to outright prohibition.

    These are facts. The reality.

    No, they are not facts. They take the worst and make it universal. That is what you do J to the T.

    It would be equally easy to say that the UK government is tolerant and compliant to whatever the US government says and therefore acts accordingly. I happen to believe that that is true.

    What say you J to the T? Love the USA more than the UK? Do you not see the USA’a cultural imperialism or do you welcome it?

    I think we should be told.

  49. Don — on 9th November, 2011 at 10:08 pm  

    Could you link to the data and methodology rather than the Mail’s interpretation? Thanks.

  50. J to the T — on 9th November, 2011 at 11:21 pm  

    Douglas Clark:

    Again no answer; just more pure fantasy, strawmen and Ad Hom nonsense.

    There really is no need for your anti-Anglo-Saxon racist rant, it does not answer the question, and it really doesn’t bother me personally. Lets see if you can work out why.

    (And in any case, since 1997 till last year, people from where filled the top spots such as PM? And Chancellor of the Exchequer?)

    Also, you are the only one banging on about the BNP in a pathetic, transparent attempt to distract from the real issue and gain sympathy.

    Your only argument (if you can call it that, unsubstantiated as it as) appears to be that very, very few people are concerned at rising Islamism in the UK, and that anyone who is concerned is a ‘Nazi’.

    Both are completely wrong:

    ” YouGov poll … commissioned by the Exploring Islam Foundation … found 58% of those questioned linked Islam with extremism while 69% believed it encouraged the repression of women.

    Asked if Muslims had a positive impact on British society, the YouGov poll found four out of 10 disagreed with the statement.

    Half linked Islam with terrorism, just 13% thought it was based on peace and 6% associated it with justice.”

    Source

    So, simple question: How many terrorist attacks have there ever been in Scotland?

  51. J to the T — on 9th November, 2011 at 11:26 pm  

    Don:

    Well full points for not claiming it is the ‘Daily Mail’ findings / poll, as is the usual custom on the internet.

    You do however lose points for the next standard ‘lets question the poll, even though its carried out by professionals’ when the facts don’t suit, and even more for not reading the link properly and finding the figures are clearly presented.

    And why is it that people who choose the ‘lets question the veracity’ route never seem to do any research of their own?

    Oh well.

    And here is the actual data:

    Link

    And their methodology:

    Link

    You’ll find the figures are the same and the methodology is from the peer reviewed British Polling Council.

    What next, Don? Thanks.

  52. douglas clark — on 10th November, 2011 at 1:07 am  

    J to the T @ 50,

    Try reading my post at 47 again. It is not a difficult post to read and it directly answers your question. The rest of your comment is, well, just a bit sad, really….

    Although you are right about Gordon Brown. He has been an embarrassment waiting to happen for a hell of a long time…. I wouldn’t have wished his premiership on my worst enemy.

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