Language tests for immigrants
Prime Minister Gordon Brown will tighten immigration rules for thousands of foreigners seeking work in Britain, his Downing Street office confirmed on Sunday. All skilled workers from outside the European Union will have to show they can speak English in a move that could block around 35,000 people coming to Britain.
The move, to be announced by Brown in a speech to the Trade Unions Congress on Monday, was dismissed by the opposition Conservatives as “tough talk” that would have little effect on levels of immigration. [Reuters]
Typically, the Tories don’t get it. This is not designed to restrict immigration anyway. I support the move but because I agree that a commonly spoken language is vital for social cohesion and empowering newcomers. If immigrants want to come here, they should make an effort to learn the language.
Update: Cllr Tony Sharp disagrees with me, saying it’s more an attempt to reduce highly skilled workers into the country. Maybe true, but he should read this by Chris Dillow.
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All skilled workers from outside the European Union?
The problem most people have are the immigrants from INSIDE the European Union, who are generally unskilled, like Poles etc.
Unskilled, perhaps, but bloody hard working.
Unlike our own unskilled rump.
Why do we have borders anyway though?
Ask yourself who they benefit? It sure ain’t us ordinary folks!
Drawing some arbitrary lines on a map in order to keep some people in, other people out – and for what?
So an unaccountable bunch of bureaucrats can exercise their “authority” to decide where or where not on this planet we may go, or make our home, or escape from if it gets too bad.
Imagine a world without borders, where we can all go anywhere and build our lives anywhere we choose with whoever we choose, and nobody may be coerced against their will by confinement to one-or-other arbitrary pen.
If you believe in equality and freedom for all humans, that’s the world you need to create!
Without borders there can be no tax havens. Thats your answer.
Is a Polo a mint with a hole – or a hole with a mint around it.
Justforfun
What is this measure actually designed to do?
How do skilled workers get jobs here without speaking English?
Surely it is supply and demand – if companies need non English speakers surely thats OK. I mean – let the markets decide – isn’t that current thinking? Just don’t give them free English lessons – charge their employers.
Justforfun
good points from dave s, unfortunately most people have simply – in these discussions – accept the nation-state model and all this as going ‘on top’ of that. i agree we should always try and imagine a world with no borders, so at the same time as dealing with present current reality and discussing it, if i were writing these kinds of posts i would always add in a footnote-y kind of way, that *of course no borders would be the best thing*
how much do we all actually know about work permits and visas by the way? a lot of people generally engage in discourse around ‘immigration’ not knowing the reality of what that actually constitutes. and why should they if they’re British and don’t have to deal with it.
who will this affect? it says skilled workers seeking work from outside the EU and presumably they are referring to the ones who come in legally – so let’s see:
you need a work permit if you are not an EU citizen ( i don’t know if the recent mumblings about excluding romania and bulgaria from the right to work in any EU state without a permit has gone through)
getting a work permit traditionally hasn’t required a formal language test. presumably because in order to get a work permit, you have to have a job offer, and the company that agrees to apply for a permit on your behalf, (usually only a medium-big company agrees, unless its a restaurant wanting chefs) requires them to confirm that they think this person can do the job better than any home/EU person can. presumably the assumption is that if you can get all this, you’re probably able to speak english and usually – that you are pretty highly skilled/or well educated.
so my question is: are these new laws saying effectively that anyone who applies for a work permit in the future will be required to take an english language test as well?
if so – then most people won’t be affected much, it would be a formality.
the only thing i can think of – there are some categories of low-skilled work that are eligible for work permits -now these guys might be affected. but the item up above mentioned skilled workers so i don’t know.
the HSMP – the highly skilled migrant programme – is different because you don’t need a specific job to apply – this is more similar to the points based system the Australians and the Canadians use. you get to work for 4 years – as long as you’ve got the right points. and that usually again – presupposes sufficient english. again – are they saying they want people who apply on the HSMP to take a formal english test? if so – i don’t see its going to be that much of a hardship.
so in order to work out who this thing might affect, it would be useful to know in real terms, i.e. where it would be implemented, in terms of the existing rules around work permits.
implementation level detail would be useful when these things are discussed – otherwise it just stays at the abstract level.
perhaps the 35,000 people affected are chefs at michelin restaurants, who in order to demonstrate they are good at what they do, don’t need English. So perhaps we say bye bye to Moroccan chefs unless they’re willing to learn english for the 4 years of their work permit.
so are we saying that any foreign chefs who want to cook in British restaurants must learn english?
If after the 4 years of the work permit are over, and they want to stay, then they have to go through new arrangements.
p.s. don’t bother clicking on that link! it doesn’t take you anywhere
so when the tories said it won’t have much effect on the levels of immigration, they were probably right. sticking on an english test isn’t the end of the world, frankly in case most people haven’t worked it out, more people in the rest of the world speak English than British people speak another language, so if anyone is going to be hurt by people sticking language requirements as an entry, it will be British folk travelling abroad. – all those homes in a foreign place dreams would have to involve learning the language..
and suppose they all want to come and build their lives in my front garden? this may sound fine in cloud-cuckoo land, but *money* can already do this and we’ve seen what happens when it is not confined by the arbitrary pens of regulators. now imagine a human version of a credit crunch or recession, when suddenly everyone tries to move to switzerland at once.
deary me.
b’shalom
bananabrain
I think we should be teaching kids born and brought up in this country proper English, judging from the nitwits I hear on the bus into work. In India, they were teaching 10 year olds complicated grammar that I was never taught at school.
Totally agree with sonia, post 8…I remember when I applied to study French at university, my parents were really supportive, it was their narrow minded friends that gave me grief…”what you doing French for?? how are you going to get a job with that?” blah blah…Learning French was one of the most satisfying things I’ve ever done..and something I’m always able to use..I think the way French is taught at school really boring. No wonder kids don’t want to learn it..there’s no respect for other languages and this generation is inflicting its “English is all you need” attitude on to kids…not that English is taught properly either.
I do think immigrants who reside here have a responsibility to learn English, but surely to have people respect our language we should be ensuring that British people have respect for other languages too.
Sonia – you have far more patience than I to ask and point out the flaws
Sunny – why is Gordon Brown bringing this is in? A cynic – and I refuse to be called a cynic, might think that this is Gordon’s way of helping the Guardian retain its current revenue from advertizing Government jobs. Cut backs in other sectors mean that a few adverts for ‘language inspectors’ might help a bit.
Or is there a rational bigger picture? – I do hope so.
Justforfun
well jagdeep im not pointing out flaws im merely asking for clarification – and seeing as i’m a foreign citizen who has lived here for many years and am familiar with the process of applying for a work permit – naturally i ask – well how is this going to affect someone in the same position as i was a few years ago? that’s it really – talking about policy in the abstract is a bit pointless unless we have some idea of what that means on the ground.
i suppose, the categories like au pair and domestic workers will probably be the ones affected. mind you in the case of domestic workers, it might not be such a bad thing to learn english first as so many south asians make terrible employers and think they’ve got themselves a desi slave. au pairs come to learn english don’t they so they might have to think about that.
sofia heh – i bet you’re far more employable now you’ve got french as an extra language! the irony is of course that in many cases,EU citizens are more qualified for jobs here that require one or more EU language, than many British applicants.
I know plenty of “native”, “aboriginal” British people, usually from low income neighbourhoods, who would fail English language tests. So why don’t we just remove *anyone* who can’t speak the Queen’s English up to a certain standard — whether they’re originally from here or not — and just populate this country with people who can? I mean it’s obvious.
What’s the point of learning French anyway? No-one’s gonna be speaking that in the future. Learn Punjabi or something instead.
well anas i bet the tories would be keen to do that, anyone who doesn’t sound like they have a plum in their mouth – out!
the only people who want a world without borders are the capitalists – a world without borders means a world without organised labour or workers rights (unless you believe that can go global too?!). a world without borders means a world without a minimum wage too…
read decca achinghead’s review of anthony andrew’s tome over the weekend. she employed the same lopsided logic to belittle his attempt to reclaim the left from upper-class hijakers like her. how COULD he consider himself deprived, she wondered, coming from a council house in Kentish Town when there were people in the third world far worse off?!
ungrateful oik! bet decca believes in a world without borders too – so cheap and grateful these brazillian cleaners…
Anas…now why would i wanna learn punjabi when i know urdu:P:P…having said that, I’m rapidly picking up the odd phrase or so, from the old ladies in the Gurdwara..hehe
i’d like to learn both, as well as hindi, arabic and turkish. i fear i will never manage it, unfortunately. however, anas, french is still pretty useful in much of africa and the middle east, not to mention in much of europe. however, if you want my advice for a great cultural experience which will help you in europe, south america *and* africa, try portuguese – more people speak that than either french or german.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Surely you mean Spanish? although I can see Portugese being used in parts of Africa.
great cultural experience – is that your euphamism for getting to know the opposite sex?
I think Mrs Banabrain should closely monitor your choice of night school classes.
Justforfun
I think Arabic is next on my list…once i’ve saved enough after the wicked tax/mortgage/electricity/gas/insurance/water/ ppl have taken me to the cleaners..(why don’t I get any nice letters in the post??…*sigh*)(*mental note*…get friends to write letters and not to email)
I digress…what we should be doing is a joint programme with countries where there are lots of Brit expats…say in Spain..get the Spanish government to get the Brits to do Spanish exams..and until they pass they aren’t allowed access to certain things, like the beach…hahahaha *evil cackle*
Yeah I’m thinking of learning Arabic too a language of the future methinks…
countries with a lot of british expats = the world!
boyo, i think dave s’s idea of a world without borders also is also a world with a very different economic paradigm. and most likely a world where money is NOT created as debt by private banks.
Arabic – which dialect?
Thinking of getting into the oil business Leon?
Russian seems a far better idea or Farsi – the poetry is good in either and if one learns a language – surely it should be for romantic reasons or business.
Justforfun
gulf or egyptian…
Sonia – British homebuyers are spreading stability and wealth around the world, don’t knock them. By buying up old wrecks and ruins etc from Baku to Lhasa, they are instilling a value into areas where no local previously gave a damn. Now everyone can benefit from the munificence of our banks and mortgage companies as house prices rise world wide and we buy up all the stock that is available. Ask El Cid – he will agree I’m sure.
Well thats one way of looking at it.
Justforfun
“Sonia – British homebuyers are spreading stability and wealth around the world, don’t knock them”
after all, if people went around enforcing nation-states only for citizens, i shouldn’t have had the life I have had.
Egyptian is good for MI5 or was 20 years ago… – more useful world wide ‘on the street’ – but then things have changed abit. I have no intention of learning Arabic – I can barely write English correctly.
Justforfun
Heh not quite, I’ve other reasons but yeah they are geo political in nature.
lol @ MI5…well I’ve had a few recruitment emails..can’t remember whether that was M15 or M16..(dunno which one does what)…probably cuz they need some Urdu speaking spies..haha…Arabic is purely for hobby purposes…I need to learn something new…
– sounds important! Are you sure its nothing to do with Bananabrain’s great cultural experience
Once oil runs out, what use will Arabic be? Its not as if anyone outside the ME actually understands it.
Justforfun
Well sonia, that was justforun you were responding to, not me, but it’s nice to know that I’m on your mind at all times
This whole issue is a no-brainer. In my opinion too much emphasis is placed on translation and all that kind of thing, and not helping whoever comes and isn’t quite fluent in English to learn English. That should be a basic priority. Another reason — studies have shown that children whose mother does not speak English struggle in school because their Mum’s can’t help them with their homework, and this perpetuates the cycle of underachievment etc etc etc
Sofia – why not Tamil? I wish I knew even a few words of Tamil just to be polite when in S India generally.
Justforfun
Yes Sonia – stop confusing Jagdeep for me – he has enough people thinking he is an idiot without being confused for me
Justforfun
hahaha — ‘aboriginal’ British people — you’re too funny Anas
Tauba tauba tauba — you visit Gurdwara? How sufi you are.
Learn Punjabi, it’s great. Hairdo (Urdu) is too effeminate.
OO7 Leon
MI5 is domestic and N Ireland, MI6/SIS (Secret Intelligence Service to give it its full name) is foreign Intel work.
aboriginal
Sorry, i was going to write something pseudo-funny but that just made me piss my pants for so long I’ve forgotten it
ooh, farsi, i forgot farsi – the most beautiful language in the world, albeit with brazilian portuguese coming a close second. and lest you think i’m being disloyal to hebrew, i’m just speaking aesthetically. as for arabic, it’d be iraqi, of course.
and, as for cultural experiences, i meant music, of course, you smutty people. besides, this pre-dates mrs bananabrain…. although she also enjoys a good samba from time to time.
hur hur hur
b’shalom
bananabrain
Nah…and no it’s nothing intelligence orientated, think global media.;)
bananabrain, I’m still freaking out at the thought of you at a Prince concert. I had an image of you as a very resevrved rabbi type guy. But now I know you’re a androgynous sexy mother f**ker who happens to be Jewish.
Leon, thank you for the clarification on the whole M15 M16 thing..
Justforfun – tamil..i’m not interested…(just bein honest).
Jagdeep – yeh shock horror, a muslim that gives a toss about people of another religion…damnit…
as for punjabi..i must say…i can never tell when the in laws are swearing at me..so i should really learn:P:P
Punjabi can be quite poetic as well Sofia. The thing with Punjabi is it’s very flexible. It’s very earthy and broad but it can be mellifulous and melancholy too especially in old poetry and folk songs.
I was just kidding about the Gurdwara by the way.
Jagdeep, yes I know you were joking…although I have come across people who have given me funny looks when I tell them that I do a bit of work there…and also from the ppl that attend when they ask what my name is..although I don’t mind at all, I just use it as a way to talk about things we all have in common…like the school my mum went to in Ludhiana..and how they shouldn’t be eating all that fried food…and how the young generation have no respect tch tch…I also think i’m learning a lot from the way the gurdwara is set up, with volunteers etc..both positive and not so positive…
sorry! for my mixup of the j’s…
The thing with Punjabi is it’s very flexible. It’s very earthy and broad but it can be mellifulous and melancholy too especially in old poetry and folk songs.
Yes! that’s what I love about punjabi — even tho I’m not very fluent in it. Urdu is beautiful but so refined and “proper”. But Punjabi is more like Shakespearean English, capable of great beauty but also of being earthy, rough and bawdy.
I’m a Conservative and I think it’s a great idea from Brown. I completely agree that social cohesion is seriously lacking in this country and if we can do anything to improve it (so long as we don’t screw up our economy in the mean time) it will benefit everyone.
I get along in English, German and French, I can order food and drink in Catala, Swedish and Dutch. I can still read a little bit of Russian and Welsh and rather a lot of Latin and Attic Greek. I’m trying to learn at least how to be polite in Mirpuri.
I must admit, that if I had all the time in the world, I’d like to learn Mandarin Chinese.
Russian is great for swearing, btw, even if swearing is somewhat nekulturny.
not so much of the androgynous, jagdeep – the beard and male pattern baldness tends to give it away. and not so much of the rabbi either – i really don’t know that much compared to proper scholars, i just don’t tend to get asked anything that hard in dialogue situations!
and, not just prince, but also ice-T, parliament-funkadelic and anything else which involves bringing the funk. and i was also a bit of a metalhead in my youth and still enjoy anything from pantera via david lee roth to KISS.
*limbers up the floyd rose whammy bar*
WHEAUWUWUWUWUWUWUWHEAAAAAOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWwwwwwwwwww.
widdlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddlywiddly.
this could explain the flamenco, too.
b’shalom
bananabrain
jagdeep
you’re a sensible man, what can i say? well-said on no. 34.
It is not faire moment. not good for all.
Well said Anas!
bananabrain I bet you love Stevie Wonder too, around the time of ‘Innervisions’ and ‘Songs in the Key of Life’