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  • The guilt-free liberal


    by Sunny
    3rd September, 2007 at 3:54 pm    

    I am the guilt-free liberal, as explained in an article for comment is free this morning.
    Update: Andrew Anthony replies to my criticisms.


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: Current affairs






    63 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Robert Sharp

      Who are you writing for?…

      Blogging is a process of clarification. I don’t think Sunny was trying to prove anything by citing his ‘credentials’. He was merely citing certain previous examples of his writing, in order to head off fairly the obvious counter-arguments.

      ……


    2. Vitamins Nutrition Supplements

      Vitamins Nutrition Supplements…

      I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…


    3. Popular Science

      Popular Science…

      I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…




    1. Bleh — on 3rd September, 2007 at 5:24 pm  

      Well, peeps, I’m off. I’ll not disturb your cosy-little multi-culti collectivist love-in any longer, you’re obviously beyond hope and/or redemption. I’ve learned what I needed to learn during the course of my little experiment. Bananabrain is completely correct - the groupthink here is astonishing.

      Just a few words before I go about various peeps. Don’t get offended if I don’t mention you - you just never registered on my radar.

      Rumbold, Don, Rohin, Jai, even Jag - you are clever and reasonable people, if horribly misguided. I won’t hold that against you, however. A pint of your favourite beverage on me if we ever meet.

      Sid - you’re nothing but a nihilistic fecker. Just like me, in fact. But I have the guts to admit it and use it to my benefit. The irony is, and you’ll hate this, and that brings a smile to my face - we’d get on like a house on fire in real life.

      Sunny - you’re clever and bright, I’ll give you that, but you are so horribly misguided on just about everything that it is possible to be misguided on. And your appetite for publicity seeking is second-to-none. Andrew Anthony has you pegged down to a tee.

      Nyrone, Sofia and Natty and the others of the same ilk - ignorant worthless Taqiyya merchants.

      Chairwoman - best of luck with your recovery.

      All the various Hindu/Sikh/Buddist/Jewish Britons here - I wish you the best of luck. This country is stronger for having you here, and you’re a worthwhile and useful section of society, unlike a certain other grouping.

      Farewell,
      Bleh
      (a.k.a the one and only “Morgoth”)

    2. ZinZin — on 3rd September, 2007 at 5:36 pm  

      A guilt-free catholic. Find one.

      have you read Andrew Anthony’s book as I have not be following this debate. Reading his reply that appears to be his only response to your critique.

    3. ZinZin — on 3rd September, 2007 at 5:37 pm  

      Oh wait you answered that. Note to self scroll down next time.

    4. Sunny — on 3rd September, 2007 at 7:00 pm  

      Now now Bleh, don’t be upset just because I called you out on you calling pretty much everyone anti-semitic…

    5. Kulvinder — on 3rd September, 2007 at 9:32 pm  

      My responce to ‘liberal guilt’ accusations is pretty similar to my responce in this thread.

      I’m not even sure what point Andrew Anthony is making.

    6. Kulvinder — on 3rd September, 2007 at 9:35 pm  

      Bananabrain is completely correct - the groupthink here is astonishing.

      I am genuinely laughing out loud.

    7. Don — on 3rd September, 2007 at 10:20 pm  

      I agree. With everything.

    8. soru — on 3rd September, 2007 at 10:25 pm  

      I have to confess to thinking the world isn’t actually made a better place by opinion pieces written by people who haven’t taken the minimum of effort to find out what they are talking about.

      Write what you know is solid advice. If you don’t care enough to find out about a topic, then why not pick a topic that does interest you?

    9. Clairwil — on 3rd September, 2007 at 10:46 pm  

      I agree with Don.

    10. Cath — on 3rd September, 2007 at 11:08 pm  

      I agree with Don and Clairwil

    11. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:19 am  

      Bleh/Morgoth:

      Sad to see you go. I know what you said (even the best of us were branded “horribly misguided”), but I hope that you were exposed to a different range of views then you were used to. If so, it was worth it. I presume that you are the ‘Harry’s Place’ Morgoth.

      “Sunny … your appetite for publicity seeking is second-to-none.”

      That is unfair. Sunny’s career is as a writer, so he is bound to link to stuff that he writes. Otherwise, it would be illogical.

      “A pint of your favourite beverage on me if we ever meet.”

      I shall hold you to that.

      “The groupthink here is astonishing.”

      Hardly. Kulvinder got it right in [6]. Nobody ever agrees with him. Everybody thinks that your statement was a bit silly. Just look at the responses.

      Come back from time to time (in whatever alias you choose).

    12. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:59 am  

      Sunny:

      Are you really a liberal though Sunny, or are you left-wing? I still think of liberalism in the classical, 19th-century Gladstonian sense. Basically, small government, low taxes, very little interference in peoples’ private lives and an interventionist foreign policy. People may scoff, but I believe that Margaret Thatcher came closest to this version of liberalism.

    13. sid — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:02 am  

      I believe in miracles, since you came along, you sexy thing…

    14. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:04 am  

      Oh Sid …

    15. sid — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:12 am  

      that was pitched as a response to the Don/Clairwill/Cath mexican wave, not at you Rumsbold, you old gandoo

    16. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:15 am  

      Sid:

      You should make your posts clearer, and not throw nasty insults at me (I looked it up), you pindu.

    17. sid — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:18 am  

      Oh Rumbold…

    18. ZinZin — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:30 am  

      Get a room you two.

    19. Sunny — on 4th September, 2007 at 1:32 am  

      Can you two get a room? Heh.

      Are you really a liberal though Sunny, or are you left-wing? I still think of liberalism in the classical, 19th-century Gladstonian sense.

      Well, it’s hard to condense everything into a post, but I’ll try… and some will sound contradictory but you’ll have to ask me to explain those a bit further.

      I believe in small government and a welfare state. And I also believe in competition and free markets.

      But I am overwhelmingly a social liberal more than an economic liberal. So what I’d want is a system where we provide the right incentives for the desired social outcome (more equality, less poverty, protecting the environment etc).

      I’d want a welfare state, but one where independent agencies have to compete with one another to provide the services, so they remain competitive while the government maintains a hands-off approach so it cannot impact them constantly.

      I like the BBC model in this regard - an independent body with its stated goals, which is funded by people but has to remain competitive and relevant.

      Of course every model has its failings (e.g. BBC).

      But I am suspicious of government intervention and do want people to be able to make their lifestyle choices than have everything provided by the state. To that extent, state agencies should be service providers rather than agencies run by civil servants who have all the power. I’ve seen how bad civil servants can get when they have the illusion of power.

      But all this has to be balanced with ensuring equality of opportunity, protecting the environment, providing public goods (incl an independent media).

      So, a social liberal trying to use classical economic liberalism to achieve goals. I see myself more on the left because I don’t see myself on the right…. if you know what I mean.

    20. sahil — on 4th September, 2007 at 8:45 am  

      “So, a social liberal trying to use classical economic liberalism to achieve goals. I see myself more on the left because I don’t see myself on the right…. if you know what I mean.”

      Ah but the many economic tools that you talked about such as incentives, have little say in classical economic theory. I’d say you’re definately far more Keynesian than you think, if anything Keynes was also a big social liberal (as by your definition) but he also belived in markets and market failure (AND govt failure). Have a look at this about Keynes and examples in his life to marry social liberalism with economic efficiency:

      http://www.phoenix.liu.edu/~uroy/eco54/histlist/keynes/keynes-RS-TAP.htm

    21. soru — on 4th September, 2007 at 10:34 am  

      One thing the world does badly need is about 4 or 5 words that describe the different political positions that someone from the UK might actually hold.

      All the standard political words like fascist, communist, socialist, neocon, neoliberal, islamist, imperialist, reactionary, nationalist, anarchist, trotskyite, stalinist, monarchist, post-modernist and libertarian are really only applicable to fringe groups at best.

      All that is left is the word ‘liberal’, or the names of political parties, factions, cliques and individual politicians. None of which really provide much of a hint as to what they believe, or more importantly why.

      How do you distinguish between people who support or oppose:

      - the BBC
      - the Afghan war
      - the MCB
      - the NHS buying complete services instead of just raw materials and labour
      - government action on bottom-to-middle inequality
      - government inaction on middle-to-top inequality?

      Especially when everyone involved honestly thinks of themself as a liberal, and half of the fringe groups have learnt to successfully use liberal-sounding language too.

      Democracy is a conversation, and you can’t have a conversation if you don’t have the necessary vocabulary.

    22. Nodn — on 4th September, 2007 at 10:53 am  

      Sunny- as I said on CIF- I think your article is hilarious.

    23. Jai — on 4th September, 2007 at 11:27 am  

      I believe in miracles, since you came along, you sexy thing…

      “You’re filthy cute, and baby you know it”.

      Name the singer and the song, folks. And for Extra-Special Bonus Bonking, name the album too if you can.

      **********

      In other news, DAMN YOU LONDON UNDERGROUND !!!!

      That’s all I have to say.

      I thank you.

    24. Jai — on 4th September, 2007 at 11:44 am  

      You should make your posts clearer, and not throw nasty insults at me (I looked it up), you pindu.

      Dear oh dear, Rumbold. PP’s own William Dalrymple, dreaming nostalgically of a misty bygone age of marble pavilions, shady courtyards with gently shimmering fountains, chaste romantic couples sitting next to baroque latticed windows while the muezzin calls out the azaan over the bustling imperial capital, as one sits on one’s priceless Persian carpet and discreetly sips from one’s rosewater-infused hookah while the silk-and-chiffon-swathed courtesan twirls in front of the assembled Mughal aristocrats, calls of “Mashallah” and “Irshaad” ringing out in-between the cracking of betel nuts and the enthusiastic chewing of paan…..

      Halycon days.

      *just kidding*

    25. The Common Humanist — on 4th September, 2007 at 11:59 am  

      Keyenes is one of my hero’s and he was above all a market realist - i.e. they fail as often as they succeed and, as markets are simply the product of thousands of decisons based upon the psychologies of the decision makers in their current and historical socio policial framework (phew! breath!), there is very little that is natural or, even worse, ‘mystical’ about them.

      I leave it to rightist nutbars to go all gooey eyed over them.

      The most important skill for an economist to possess is an understanding of psychology and history. Maths is a distant third.

    26. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:15 pm  

      Jai:

      “Dear oh dear, Rumbold. PP’s own William Dalrymple, dreaming nostalgically of a misty bygone age of marble pavilions, shady courtyards with gently shimmering fountains, chaste romantic couples sitting next to baroque latticed windows while the muezzin calls out the azaan over the bustling imperial capital, as one sits on one’s priceless Persian carpet and discreetly sips from one’s rosewater-infused hookah while the silk-and-chiffon-swathed courtesan twirls in front of the assembled Mughal aristocrats, calls of “Mashallah” and “Irshaad” ringing out in-between the cracking of betel nuts and the enthusiastic chewing of paan…..”

      Brilliant. There is no need to joke though- I would love to live in that time, receiving visitors as they prostrated themselves before my throne, dispensing justice as I saw fit, before retiring to my harem for the night. Happy days.

      Sunny:

      “But I am overwhelmingly a social liberal more than an economic liberal. So what I’d want is a system where we provide the right incentives for the desired social outcome (more equality, less poverty, protecting the environment etc).”

      Sahil is right. Your vision is a lot more Keynesian then neo-classical economics, because it relies on the government interfering in peoples’ lives in order to adjust behaviour (through the tax and benefits system).

    27. Sahil — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:19 pm  

      “relies on the government interfering in peoples’ lives”

      More like guiding them through a dark forest of danger :D

    28. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:29 pm  

      Sahil:

      “More like guiding them through a dark forest of danger.”

      It is none of the government’s business how I lead my life, providing that I do not break the law.

    29. Sahil — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:30 pm  

      “providing that I do not break the law.”

      So government sets the law ;)

    30. Rumbold — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:36 pm  

      Sahil:

      “So government sets the law.”

      Indeed, but what I am talking about is where the government tries to control behaviour that is not illegal; drinking at home, eating five portions of fruit and vegetables, being environmentally friendly and soforth. A government’s job is to make, amend or scrap laws, not to tell people how to behave. Either make it illegal or shut up about it.

    31. bananabrain — on 4th September, 2007 at 12:36 pm  

      jai: “cream”, from “diamonds and pearls” of course, as performed in front of my humble self at the 02 centre last tuesday.

      incidentally i don’t think everybody here is a groupthinker, nor does this cover all subjects. i’m just talking about general leftiness - and we’re not short of dissenters. but kulvinder is a case in point seeing as everyone think he is uterly bats and more crooked than the angle A like sigismund the mad maths master. hehe.

      coo-ur gosh chiz b’shalom

      bananabrain one

    32. Jagdeep — on 4th September, 2007 at 3:32 pm  

      Bleh / Morgoth’s flouncing off is the biggest show of mincing since Larry Grayson did pantomine with Danny La Rue, you big camp drama queen.

    33. Jagdeep — on 4th September, 2007 at 3:33 pm  

      bananabrain, is Prince kosher?

    34. ChrisC — on 4th September, 2007 at 3:48 pm  

      Sunny - “I’d want a welfare state, but one where independent agencies have to compete with one another to provide the services, so they remain competitive while the government maintains a hands-off approach so it cannot impact them constantly.”

      Excellent. So you are for example, as I am, in favour of education vouchers (as in Sweden), universal health insurance (as in most of Europe). Fantastic.

      I never had you down (Labourite as I assumed you were) as a small-stater. You could have knocked me down with a feather!

    35. sid — on 4th September, 2007 at 3:53 pm  

      Bleh/Morgoth is well known for the mirthless and completely unironic assertion:
      “It is 1933 and I am Winston Churchill”

      In other words, he fancies himself as an Arab gasser.

    36. Flying Rodent — on 4th September, 2007 at 11:34 pm  

      A quick note - if Andrew Anthony sincerely believed that all crime was solely due to poverty and all the evils in the world were caused by America, he wasn’t a “liberal” - he was a tool.

      Anyone with internet access would agree that there’s plenty of idiocy to go round.

      Having read his articles, I’m not inclined to buy his book in order to hear why he stopped advocating stupid dovish ideas and started advocating stupid hawkish ones.

    37. Sunny — on 5th September, 2007 at 12:26 am  

      but kulvinder is a case in point seeing as everyone think he is uterly bats

      He’s alright! Just misunderstood. I agree with him at least half the time. He’s a hardcore libertarian… I only go so far in that direction.

      ChrisC - yup. Although, I’m not entirely convinced by universal health insurance, you have to define how it works. I think the NHS model is good, but it’s been let down by incredibily bad leadership. Like the rest of Britain.

    38. Rumbold — on 5th September, 2007 at 12:28 am  

      “I think the NHS model is good, but it’s been let down by incredibily bad leadership. Like the rest of Britain.”

      This is what happens when you elect a Labour government.

    39. sid — on 5th September, 2007 at 2:10 am  

      yeah, more power to Kulvinder!

    40. ChrisC — on 5th September, 2007 at 9:50 am  

      Yep - the NHS model that’s so good that nowhere else in the world has dared to imitate its dazzling success!

    41. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 5th September, 2007 at 9:59 am  

      I considered myself a Liberal because I think that it is a good balanced way of thinking, but the more woolly minded liberals I’ve met the less I’ve agreed with them.

      Facts and evidence are important, far more important than some ‘feeling’. I enjoy teasing liberals that believe because they recycle and don’t have a car that they have washed their hands of their part in global warming.

      I was trying out this line of teasting with a new friend of mine who very pleasently answered in a realistic mannor “its complicated but I think that the principle that we try and uphold here is”, exactly right! its not cut and dry and many of our liberal ideas lead to hypocrisy or aligning ourselves with people that we shouldn’t (Mao and Tony Ben for instance).

      Frankly Sunny, I don’t think that you do that sort of thinking nearly as well as you believe that you do. Andrew is right in his response, instead of claiming he was ever a liberal in the first place, perphaps you ought consider questioning his belief that he has become a better Liberal for his self introspection is actually true.

      TFI

    42. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 5th September, 2007 at 10:11 am  

      Also, after reading Ed Hussains books I think that it is completely offense for you to dismiss him as some that has leapt from one extreme to another. In his last chapter he discusses the question “since Bakri left has HuT changed its spots?”, he concludes that the answer is “no, not much” i.e. its his opinon that that makes them a wolf in sheeps clothes.

      It is one thing to say “that is counter productive and an offense to free speech” or “baning them with only drive up there creditability”. But when you off handily slur the man’s charactor you ought look at who you stand next to when you utter these words?

      Surely this is simply Andrews point about lazy simple minded unthought out liberalism?

      TFI

    43. bananabrain — on 5th September, 2007 at 11:01 am  

      In other words, he fancies himself as an Arab gasser.

      eh?

      and, jagdeep, whether prince is kosher or not would depend on how he was killed.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    44. Jai — on 5th September, 2007 at 1:14 pm  

      Bananabrain,

      “cream”, from “diamonds and pearls” of course.

      Very good ! Well done. Just for that, you get a free roll in the hay with Sid.

      And I hope that seeing the great man at the O2 lived up to everyone’s expectations.

      Here’s another one to see exactly how much of a purple gangster you really are:

      “Pimps and thangs like to hang outside and cuss for kicks; Talking to no-one in particular, they say “The baddest I am tonight”.”

      Anyone able to name the song and the album is a true Prince player as far as I’m concerned.

    45. bananabrain — on 5th September, 2007 at 1:55 pm  

      hehe - “joy in repetition” from “graffiti bridge”; in under 10 seconds, although you’ve only got my word for it.

      however, i doubt i could have done that on any album since about 1993 with the possible exception of “the gold experience”; certainly not anything since “chaos and disorder”.

      he was great, actually, although it was a “greatest hits” show and i think i’d have preferred the aftershow party; however, it’s always worth seeing a truly fantastic band that’s that tight and that well rehearsed. plus maceo was leading the horn section.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    46. Morgoth — on 5th September, 2007 at 5:18 pm  

      Well, one has to laugh at Sunny claiming false victory (again), but thank you for the comments, one and all, even you, Sid.

      I won’t be back here again except in exceptional circumstances, but I do reserve the right to comment on various postings here over at my own blog - I’ve started blogging on an anti-collectivist theme over at Diabolique.

    47. Don — on 5th September, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

      B’brain,

      I don’t know where 1933 comes into it, but I suspect Sid is thinking of Churchill’s 1919 statement;

      In a War Office minute of 12 May 1919, Winston Churchill argued for the use of tear gas: “I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.”

      He was, I think, talking of the Kurds at the time. I am not aware that any such action was taken.

    48. Siddharth — on 5th September, 2007 at 6:10 pm  

      Stick around Morgy, I think you’d make this place very interesting.

    49. El Cid — on 5th September, 2007 at 8:31 pm  

      Bleh, I know I’ve been away, but if you’re gonna get on your Himalayan horse and make a grand farewell speech and lambaste everyone, could you at least throw some shit my way. I’ve never been so insulted in my life!

      Groupthink indeed — what tosh.

    50. bananabrain — on 6th September, 2007 at 9:59 am  

      in which case, don, the word “gasser” is entirely misleading - tear gas, however unpleasant, is not at all to be compared to mustard gas or indeed to cyanide.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    51. sid — on 6th September, 2007 at 10:47 am  

      From Geoff Simon’s ‘Iraq: From Sumer to Saddam’, St. Martin’s Press, 1994, referred to in ‘British Use of Chemical Weapons in Iraq’, on this site.

      “Churchill himself was keen to argue that gas, fired from ground-based guns or dropped from aircraft, would cause ‘only discomfort or illness, but not death to dissident tribespeople’…Wing-Commander Sir Arthur Harris…was happy to emphasise that “The Arab & Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties & damage. Within 45 mins. a full-size village can be practically wiped out & a third of its inhabitants killed or injured”…The ministry drew up a list of possible weapons, some of them the forerunners of napalm & air-to-air ground missiles:
      Phosphorus bombs, war rockets, metal crowsfeet (to maim livestock), man-killing shrapnel, liquid fire, delay-action bombs. Many of these weapons were first used in Kurdistan.”

    52. sid — on 6th September, 2007 at 11:29 am  

      On gassing Arabs:

      Churchill was particularly keen on chemical weapons, suggesting they be used “against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment”. He dismissed objections as “unreasonable”. “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes _ [to] spread a lively terror _” In today’s terms, “the Arab” needed to be shocked and awed. A good gassing might well do the job.

    53. bananabrain — on 6th September, 2007 at 12:17 pm  

      right, now i see what you’re all on about. however, i doubt that bleh is referring to this, any more than he is referring to churchill’s exploits at the battle of omdurman, back when people used to refer to the sudanese as “fuzzy-wuzzies”. i think this is probably a reference to european appeasement of hitler - and, frankly, i think in many ways the jihadi attitude to the rest of the world is actually harder to defeat, not to mention virtually impossible to contain.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    54. sid — on 6th September, 2007 at 12:46 pm  

      No, Bleh is a silly gobshite who’s ouput of peurile, bigotted, claptrap can be smelled from a mile away. Hence, his note in #1 referring to Mulsim posters here as “ignorant worthless Taqiyya merchants” is wholly characteristic of him and representative of the filth in the HP commentsbox.

    55. bananabrain — on 6th September, 2007 at 12:57 pm  

      oh, i see what you mean. yes, that is rather puerile. i don’t think i could describe anyone here in such terms - i mean, for all that i’m not a lefty, people are at least polite when others are polite back. civility is a much missed thing on the web. however, i think if you and others were a bit less vitriolic the standard of debate would be a bit less, well, ideologically abusive. personally, i stick to the issues, i hope.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    56. sid — on 6th September, 2007 at 1:05 pm  

      My vitriol is an affectation, but in any case, I’d rather be ideologically vitriolic than racially abusive.

    57. Jai — on 6th September, 2007 at 3:27 pm  

      Bananabrain,

      hehe - “joy in repetition” from “graffiti bridge”; in under 10 seconds, although you’ve only got my word for it.

      Congratulations again, you are now officially a Purple Pimp, Player, and all-round New Jack Hustler. I’m assuming you didn’t cheat by googling the lyrics…..

      Great song and one of my princely favourites, and brilliant guitar solo at the end. Very different from the “pop” stuff that he’s more well-known for amongst the masses. I think that album’s very underrated.

      however, i doubt i could have done that on any album since about 1993 with the possible exception of “the gold experience”; certainly not anything since “chaos and disorder”.

      Agreed, I haven’t actually bought any of his albums since The B-Sides back in the early/mid-90s. “3121″ is apparently quite good, though.

      i think i’d have preferred the aftershow party; however, it’s always worth seeing a truly fantastic band that’s that tight and that well rehearsed. plus maceo was leading the horn section.

      I remember an “Arena Special” 90min/2hour (can’t remember) documentary on Prince on the BBC in the early 90s which included a number of clips from his aftershow gigs — lots of horns (Miles Davis, I think), songs originally by other artists such as the Rolling Stones, and so on. I have the programme buried away on one of my old VHS tapes somewhere, it was actually very good. Also included an excellent live bluesey clip of “The Question of U” from his 1990 tour. This was of course when Prince had a beard and was going through his “I haven’t had a haircut for about 2 years” phase, which I thought was actually quite a cool look for him.

      Lucky you for managing to get tickets for his current tour. I hear that he’s basically got a different song lineup on every night of the tour.

    58. Morgoth — on 6th September, 2007 at 3:30 pm  

      I love you too, Sid.

    59. Don — on 6th September, 2007 at 3:45 pm  

      ‘I won’t be back here again except in exceptional circumstances’

      You have an odd idea of ‘exceptional’.

    60. Morgoth — on 6th September, 2007 at 3:47 pm  

      True. I’m utterly bored at work.

      Its either come here, or work on a blog posting on why altriusm is dead, or why political parties are unacceptable manifestations of collectivism.

      Sod it, these blog posts won’t write themselves. Cheerio!

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