EDL tried to take advantage of looting


by Rumbold
15th August, 2011 at 9:55 pm    

Throughout the looting/riots, the EDL attempted to capitalise on the situation, and use it as an excuse to promote themselves and as an excuse for some violence.
Cambridge saw EDL vigilantes clear Mill Road (an important road in the town centre) of imaginary looters, only to be told by local traders that they were not welcome. Meanwhile a senior Met police officer warned of more attempts by the EDL to hijack local communities defending themselves, with places like Enfield being hit.

Nor did the EDL stick to its alleged belief of only being anti-Islamic extremism. An EDL gang attacked a bus with black youths on it in London, whilst EDL posters online flooded forums with racist language directed primarily against blacks:

The English Defence League have reverted to type, with torrents of sickening anti-black racism on their divisional Facebook walls, peppered with the N-word, and description of black people being “monkeys” and “apes”. Since their existance, the moderators have tried to brush all of their non-Muslim racism under the carpet, pretending that the EDL have only one enemy, Muslims, but since the rioting began in London, the far right group have switched tack to virulent anti-Black racism of an extreme and disturbing nature.

Now graffiti is going up condemning the riots, signed by the EDL. Compare and contrast such behaviour with how many victims of the looting reacted. In Birmingham, Tariq Jahan, the father of one of the three men killed by looters, called for calm:

Today we stand here to plead with all the youth to remain calm, for our communities to stand united. This is not a race issue. The family has received messages of sympathy and support from all parts of society … I lost my son. Blacks, Asians, whites – we all live in the same community. Why do we have to kill one another? Why are we doing this? Step forward if you want to lose your sons. Otherwise, calm down and go home – please.”

Others held vigils or banded together to clean up the area. If there is a silver lining in all this senseless violence and destruction then it will be the renewed bonds that now exist between many people in the worst affected areas, which is what a healthy society depends on.


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  1. Anon for a reason — on 15th August, 2011 at 10:21 pm  

    It speaks volumes that as a member of police staff working night shift in order to identify any pockets or signs of disorder I had to monitor EDL divisional Facebook pages more than anything else. The mods continually had to inform their posters that they weren’t anti Muslim, they were just anti Muslim extremists. They’re not racist it’s just a coincidence that everyone posting on their wall is racist. It made me despair for humans

  2. Don — on 16th August, 2011 at 12:17 am  

    If that’s real (and I make no judgement) it’s an interesting point of view.

  3. Andrew — on 16th August, 2011 at 12:22 am  

    I agree absolutely with your overall article but this bit is quite lame:

    “Now graffiti is going up condemning the riots, signed by the EDL.”

    Okay, ironic that it’s graffiti, but what, really, is your problem with people condemning the rioting? The rioters are violent criminals who have earned condemnation. Or is it somehow intrinsically ‘far right’ racists to condemn the riots? If that is the case, then most of the population – most of the readers of the Guardian website, FFS, are ‘far right’ racists. Do you really believe that?

    NB, this isn’t a post in defence of the EDL, it’s in defence of the reasonable position that the rioters deserve condemnation. They bloody well do. Between them they have ruined livelihoods, made people homeless, cost jobs, caused fear and murdered five people.

  4. Cryinghard — on 16th August, 2011 at 7:39 am  

    After all that shite, this is what you fuckwits come up with. People burned out of their homes, businesses that support real people and families destroyed, the country humiliated and the best you cunts can come up with is the racist steaming pile. Bravo, truly inspirational. Where is the article celebrating the brave muslims and sikhs defending their property?

  5. Martin Hemming — on 16th August, 2011 at 7:53 am  

    Lower your expectations, mate. These, Sunny, Rumbold, etc are fuckwits who couldn’t get jobs as proper jurnos they pretend and as such the typically low quality of their wares.

  6. Rumbold — on 16th August, 2011 at 8:53 am  

    Andrew:

    I shold have made that clear. I have no problem with anyone condemning the riots/looting, as I do myself, and there is no excuse. What I do not like is the EDL attempting to hijak the anti-riot/looting attitudes by cotously linking such a stance to themselves. It does disservice to all the people who suffered and dislike the EDL.

    Cryinghard/Martin Hemming:

    I talked about the Sikhs and Muslims in the article, and was more interested in how they brhaved in the aftermath. So many pieces have been written on the riots, I could’t ee he point in just writing a piece along the same lines.

  7. Sarah AB — on 16th August, 2011 at 10:13 am  

    Rumbold – there was no trouble in Mill Road (there was some in other bits of town). However the area contains a) a small mosque and b) the site of a proposed new mosque. These were the focus of the EDL march in Cambridge a little while back.

  8. Rumbold — on 16th August, 2011 at 10:37 am  

    SarahAB:

    I remember hearing about the EDL march earlier. Can’t see Cambridge having much truck with them.

  9. damon — on 16th August, 2011 at 11:21 am  

    That Indimedia piece is rather shrill, and the Hope not Hate one is based on what a police officer said. We know the police don’t like any independent groups of people coming together in a cause that they don’t fully approve of.

    I’m not sure if the Kurdish shopkeepers of Dalston were any less backward than the white guys in Enfield and Eltham. Even the muslim guys in Birmingham who got hit by the car, had smashed the window of the car and chased it before the fatal accident.

    Eltham is three miles from Woolwich. In Woolwich there was serious rioting and the Wetherspoons pub was burnt out (see Youtube). Was it the ‘Woolwich Boys’ who were behind the rioting there? They were originally Somalis who formed a gang to protect themselves. http://www.newstatesman.com/200304070018

    Instead of being alarmed that ‘white blokes’ came out to defend their local areas, I’d be more interested in the way that it highlighted the cracks (so to speak) in the multi-cultural mosaic. In Woolwich the black guys are the hardest people in the area, and in Eltham it’s those white football supporters. The cultural gulf between them is very pronounced – and it’s plain to see, it didn’t take much to see some racism come to the surface. But would you really expect it to be otherwise? People are people, and the Enfield and Eltham people wern’t any better or worse than anyone else in this sorry story IMO.

    Rather than reading what Hope not Hate or the Socialist Workers have been saying about the riots, I have prefered these people.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10985/

  10. KB Player — on 16th August, 2011 at 2:07 pm  

    Well damon, I normally groan when you link to Spiked but that is a thought-provoking article. I have found this “all down to greed and consumerism” mantra very irritating – as if people haven’t always wanted things long before capitalism and advertisements. Looting happens when the civic order breaks down eg when a city is conquered by foreign troops. That’s happened since the dawn of time. The question is how and why civic order has broken down in some parts of some of our cities.

    England has had for most of its history potential mobs in urban centres that would come out on the streets for a spot of No Popery rioting, or as shock troops in elections in the pre secret ballot days. This seems to have died down in the twentieth century, except in special cases eg at football matches. Young males have excesses of energy that are used up in warrior and peasant cultures but which urban cultures can’t find much outlet for. In eg a mining or shipbuilding community its anti-social expression would have been kept in check by more responsible older blokes who were respected, but that kind of community has disappeared.

  11. Wibble — on 16th August, 2011 at 5:08 pm  

    “Even the muslim guys in Birmingham who got hit by the car, had smashed the window of the car and chased it before the fatal accident.”

    Where did you get this from, and was it an “accident” as you say?

  12. jamal — on 16th August, 2011 at 5:51 pm  

    edl having a good august i see

    Being proved to having links to the christian extremist that killed 77 people in norway.

    And now calling black people apes and the N word and chasing anyone black out of town why is anyone surprised!

    Edl are the problem not the solution.

  13. Don — on 16th August, 2011 at 6:13 pm  

    Wibble,

    Three men have been charged with murder so accident seems unlikely.

  14. Refresh — on 16th August, 2011 at 6:30 pm  

    ‘Where did you get this from…’

    My pixels are already quivering in anticipation.

  15. Refresh — on 16th August, 2011 at 6:31 pm  

    Or I need a new monitor.

  16. Danny — on 16th August, 2011 at 6:50 pm  

    “Being proved to having links to the christian extremist that killed 77 people in norway”

    What ‘links’exactly?

    I want proof of these ‘links’ not some Searchlight propaganda. The Norwegian police have said conclusively that they have found no links whatsoever and that he acted entirely alone.

    And the dickhead was a high ranking Freemason, doesnt really go with being a “christian extremist.”

  17. damon — on 16th August, 2011 at 6:58 pm  

    Yes, accident is the wrong word of course.
    What happened in the moments before the car ploughed into the three men has been shown on the TV news.

    As this is about the EDL (again) let’s be clear what we are talking about. These people.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miRT873B-QE

    Whether they are EDL affiliated or not, those people with those horrible rasping cockney accents, are what’s really scary. It’s what puts the ”multi” into multi-culturalism. They’re a different culture to a lot of other Londoners, in the same way that the middle class people who cleaned up after the riots in Clapham are a different culture to Romany gypsies.
    I think that liberal society doesn’t know how to deal with such people.

  18. persephone — on 16th August, 2011 at 7:03 pm  
  19. Don — on 16th August, 2011 at 7:54 pm  

    Whether they are EDL affiliated or not, those people with those horrible rasping cockney accents, are what’s really scary.

    What? Why scary? How do they differ from any of the communities that came together to protect their High Street? Maybe I missed something but the other than the ‘horrible rasping cockney accents’(?) they seem no different from my own neighbours with their gutteral Northumbrian accents.

    I think that liberal society doesn’t know how to deal with such people.

    Which people? The one’s in the video? Why would that be a problem? And why do you link them to the EDL, even speculatively? I didn’t see a sinister or scary agenda there, just a community responding to an immediate threat in a calm and non-violent way. Good luck to them.

    How did Romanies get into this?

  20. Don — on 16th August, 2011 at 7:58 pm  

    Danny,

    And the dickhead was a high ranking Freemason

    Links?

  21. Danny — on 16th August, 2011 at 8:23 pm  

    Don,

    If you really didnt know that then I doubt there is much meaningful debate to be had with you anyway.

    But go on then:

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Millar+Norway+murderer+Freemason+obsession/5169039/story.html

    The dickhead also viewed Christianity as a cultural entity binding Europeans, rather then religious one and in his manifesto talked of his affinity with ‘Christian atheists.’

  22. Don — on 16th August, 2011 at 9:40 pm  

    Danny,

    I was aware that he owned masonic regalia and claimed connections, as he did with the Knights Templars and other gibberish.

    But that does not make him a ‘high ranking mason’. What is your concept of how Freemasons actually work? I’ve no time for them myself, but do you seriously think a lodge would make that bastard a ‘high ranking freemason’? He didn’t even work for the Planning Department.

    On your second point, I think I used almost exactly those words on an earlier thread, so I agree.

  23. 78 — on 16th August, 2011 at 10:07 pm  

    @EDL moron Cryinghard:

    How is this a racist piece? Don’t pull that reverse racism bullshit.

    @damon: It would be awesome if your fucking mentality didn’t really rub off on others

    Don’t migrate out of the UK

    Ever.

  24. 78 — on 16th August, 2011 at 10:07 pm  

    @Damon: Part of EDL, are we?

  25. damon — on 16th August, 2011 at 10:29 pm  

    ”What? Why scary? How do they differ from any of the communities that came together to protect their High Street?”

    Because Don, those were the very people this article is about. A mixture of locals and people from the wider area who had come to (supposedly) defend Eltham from loters. The police didn’t like them and eventualy charged them off the streets. Some of them were openly EDL supporters. Others not so.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/police-clash-with-vigilantes-in-eltham

    I call them scary white blokes with cockney accents, because they are a rare breed in the more central boroughs of London. Even the way they speak is a throw-back to the Bermondsey of a few decades ago, where many of them and their families originated from.
    That is the area of south east London where the guys who killed Stephen Lawrence came from. And although the boundaries between different cultural hegemonies aren’t as clear as here in Belfast, somewhere between Eltham and Lewisham and Woolwich, things change culturally.

    Because so much energy is spent on this website looking into every aspect of the EDL, I thought that who they were and where they hail from should be looked at too.
    Of course there will have been some racism over these riots. The Wetherspoons pub in Woolwich got burned down. There were always going to be some pretty unpalatable things said if it was mostly black people rioting there. Burning the pub is like a hate crime.
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=woolwich+pub+burnt&aq=f

    Without making this all sound too distopian, I can’t get my mind away from seeing the Eltham guys in the video. The white Millwall and Charlton supporters, and then looking up the ”Woolwich Boys” – both reading some articles about them, and then viewing this youtube.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDbB_Pey0TQ

    Three miles is what seperates those two parts of south London. You could write a book about what’s going on in those communities.

  26. Kismet Hardy — on 17th August, 2011 at 6:33 am  

    Sorry, playing ketchup here… been out of the country. But that fat nervy bloke, whassisname, the one that leads the bnp has stuffed my inbox with links to a clip he made where he predicted this, only he keeps calling it a ‘black riot’. I’ve not been here to see it, but all the clips I’ve seen seems to show an equal mix of all colours? And is it true that the convicted looters are being threatened to be evicted of their council homes, including their families? Jesus, I hope that’s not true.

    Kids today eh? All they need is, um, stuff.

  27. Sarah AB — on 17th August, 2011 at 8:01 am  

    Kismet – there is some talk of such evictions but some uncertainty, I think, as to whether that is possible/legal – let alone a good thing to do. I see it as an additonal punishment which won’t hit better off troublemakers – though I think that tenants who make life difficult for their neighbours (as opposed to those getting caught up in events, in what may be a first offence)should be dealt with toughly.

  28. Kismet Hardy — on 17th August, 2011 at 8:47 am  

    This stupid government. Make thieves homeless. Because homeless people don’t need to steal, like.

  29. Danny — on 17th August, 2011 at 9:47 am  

    “But that does not make him a ‘high ranking mason’.”

    He was a 3rd Degree Mason, so, yes, it does.

    And the lodge had no idea of what he was going to do, nor did anyone else, because he acted entirely alone.

    He was only expelled after.

  30. SP — on 17th August, 2011 at 1:02 pm  

    “but all the clips I’ve seen seems to show an equal mix of all colours”

    Well I think the media appear to be at pains to show those types of clips rather then what was experienced by myself and everyone else I know; they are eager even to badger and harass witnesses who were seriously impacted by the rioting but told the truth of what they saw:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyzbZrUdfEg&feature=channel_video_title

    The reality I saw in Clapham was more in line with what the guy in the video above says, rather then the image of a rainbow riot being put across.

    How ridiculous that that truth should warrant a so-called journalist berating a witness, effectively insulting him and clearly attempting to make the news rather then just report it.

    Sure I saw some whites, but only a small percentage of the overall and they were dressed all ‘gangsta’ style and clearly part of that nasty culture.

    The riots exploded in areas with large black populations too. Tottenham. Brixton. Hackney. Clapham etc and the same outside of London.

    The main exception seems to have been Salford where the looting was almost exclusively white chavs, suspected to have been directed by the Noonan gang.

  31. damon — on 17th August, 2011 at 2:50 pm  

    My pixels are already quivering in anticipation.

    Was that it Refresh?

    KB Player. I’d agree with most of what you said. People on the left seem to not like those people I linked to though. And certainly not when they have articles rubbishing scare stories about white racists gathering during the riots.

    I think if the EDL are to be talked about in detail, it’s worth doing properly, and that means trying to understand the psychology of the communities that they spring from. The white working class guys who turned out to protect Eltham are clearly a distinctive culture.
    That some of them are racist should hardly be surprising. They came for the inner boroughs of south east London originally, and those areas now have a patchwork of ethnic minority based gangs.
    If you google one of the biggest local gangs (of African origin) the ‘Woolwich Boys’ – it’s totally understandable that some whites would not like the way they have ”taken over” Woolwich.
    So you could look at those people in Eltham – (and even the EDL), as just another gang. Most people don’t bother with researching the gangs that much, or even know their names – and I’d say the EDL aren’t really worth great scrutiny either.
    Maybe about the same as the Woolwich Boys.

  32. EDLers Worship Adolf Hitler! — on 17th August, 2011 at 4:02 pm  

    Many EDlers are hardcore neo-Nazis, and worship Adolf Hitler.

    Jon Snowy Shaw of the NWI sho still is allowed to attend EDL riots, praises the Protocols.

    Anyone know what the Protocols are? They are a forgery, yet the anti-Semitic EDL white supremacists want to believe they are true.

    An EDL Facebook group with 88 in the name, has recently been discovered by Searchlight, which also praises Enoch Powell and Oswald Mosley.

    It is moderated by Jeff Marsh, whose friends in the now defunct WDL wear swastika tatoos on their chests, make stiff-armed “Roman” salutes, and burn anti-nazi flags in public.

  33. MattyinSE9 — on 17th August, 2011 at 5:07 pm  

    Damon likes to claim that Woolwich and Eltham are a million miles away culturally. Woolwich=Black and Eltham=White. This is far too simplistic. At http://news.sky.com/home/video/16050090 you can see some young white men in Woolwich condemning the riots but in a constructive way unlike Damon who seems keen to emphasise the racial divisions.

    Also, the EDL is not just another gang. It is a national organisation bent on provoking racial hatred.

  34. MattyinSE9 — on 17th August, 2011 at 5:28 pm  

    Re: Ethnicity of Woolwich rioters. See this
    http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/08/woolwich-riot-pictures-release.html

    Of the photos of the suspected rioters, 4 are clearly white, 6 are black and I’m not sure about 2 of them.

    RE: Birmingham
    “What happened in the moments before the car ploughed into the three men has been shown on the TV news.” But the TV pictures didn’t show Muslims smashing a car window as Damon claims.

  35. John Lock — on 17th August, 2011 at 5:39 pm  

    EDLers Worship Adolf Hitler!

    Ah, Facebook. That paragon of forensic evidence!

    It seem all the communist searchlight be able to find is Facebook comments to tarnish their political rivals.

    And that is all they are about. Exposing extremism, my arse! Where are the exposes of Islamists or UAFers for instance?

    Are there racists in the EDL? Defiantly. Are there racists in every walk of life? Defiantly.

    Is everyone in the EDL automatically deemed ‘racist’ because they are primarily white, male and nationalistic? Defiantly. Is that racist in itself?

    Defiantly.

    -0-

    MattyinSE9

    Yes, and the EDL has never shot a 5 year old girl either. Or anyone else for that matter. Unlike the black gangs like GAS and AMD.

    Where was the indignant rioting for that little girl, as innocent as they come?

    Where is the concern on these pages for gangs of killers that roam our streets?

    Why is it these black gangs have a specialist full time police unit to deal with them, but the EDL don’t?

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?

  36. Kismet Hardy — on 17th August, 2011 at 6:07 pm  

    John Lock, seriously, this ‘I read about a Muslim wot raped a white girl and a black bloke wot shot a goat’ reasoning is wank and you should know it. Every day the papers are full of crime commited and intelligent people wouldn’t say ‘my car got nicked it musta been the scousers’ because they heard the one about liverpudlians nicking cars.

    Are you ‘defiantly’ that simple?

  37. John Lock — on 17th August, 2011 at 6:21 pm  

    Kismet Hardy

    This ‘lets pretend that reality isn’t so’ reasoning is wank and you should know it.

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime? Easy question. In fact who have the EDL ever shot or killed?

    Are the EDL behind 54% of London’s street crime? You know, violent muggings and all the fun stuff?

    Or how about gang rape? Statistics in 2009 show that only 8% were carried out by whites, so it doesn’t look like the EDL are behind 92% of gang rapes either.

    Do you really think this isn’t a problem that needs addressing with honesty?

    Are you ‘defiantly’ that simple?

  38. damon — on 17th August, 2011 at 6:58 pm  

    MattyinSE9. This is what’s wrong with these internet forums. If you try to broaden things out, there are people who will always think the worst. I’ve been called an EDL or BNP supporter so many times now on Pickled Politics that I’ve lost count. Once, even by a moderator. Should everything be dumbed down so much that even the most stupid person could not take issue with it?
    I’m not saying one place is black and one is white.
    But that what happened in Eltham and Enfield probably couldn’t have happened in Woolwich or Lewisham. Certainly not Tottenham. And not Croydon where I’m from either. If anyone had tried that vigilante stuff in Croydon, things would have got really violent.
    If a lot of the vigilantes were white, it would have become a racial conflict.

    As for Birmingham, I’m only saying what I saw on the TV news. The muslim guys had chased the car and smashed the back window. There was CCTV footage showing half a dozen of them running just before the car came back. And I could be wrong. So what ffs, it’s not like I’m trying to say anything other than what I saw on the TV news.

    Try this MattyinSE9.

    Never mind the looters, what about the ‘fascists’?

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10979/

  39. Sarah AB — on 17th August, 2011 at 8:27 pm  

    damon – I think it’s fine to raise these things. If the reports you have read are wrong – then maybe raising them will help get them quashed more effectively, and, if right, they don’t excuse the deaths in Birmingham.

  40. Refresh — on 18th August, 2011 at 12:10 am  

    ‘My pixels are already quivering in anticipation.

    Was that it Refresh?’

    Its enough, I should think.

  41. douglas clark — on 18th August, 2011 at 12:38 am  

    John Lock @ 37,

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime? Easy question. In fact who have the EDL ever shot or killed?

    How many people are in the EDL?

    Y’know, pay whatever dues are required, sign the membership forms, whatever it takes to be in the EDL?

    I’d have thought it might be in the hundreds. Or tens.

    However, you, sir, have a game to play, don’t you?

    You want it to be thousands, hundreds of thousands, whatever.

    A very big number anyway.

    All of whom are pure as the driven snow and love the baby Jesus. How sweet your Utopia must be. Full of folk, just like you.

    ————————

    Are you aware of the concept of gearing in financial instruments? If you are, then you may be aware of the rather equivalent political notion that shouting loudly, as you appear to do, does not mean that you have anything worthwhile to say, nor indeed that there is anyone marching along in lock-step with your ideas. Perhaps, if you looked over your shoulder you would see an empty street.

    I find you quite offensive to people here, none of whom – to the best of my knowledge – advocates violence nor murder.

    I tend to try not to categorise people. I would, for instance, feel safe in the company of any of the regulars here. I would not expect to become one of your statistics. Indeed, I am quite fond of some of the people that write here.

    I think you are a rather shallow chap who probably still Brylcreams your hair and thinks history stopped around and about the Battle of Britain.

    How is the League of Empire Loyalists doing these days?

  42. douglas clark — on 18th August, 2011 at 1:09 am  

    Or you could get this wrong too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqFU8O53tr4

  43. damon — on 18th August, 2011 at 1:32 am  

    Sarah AB – sure, that’s right. Though I shouldn’t have mentioned Birmingham at all really. I wasn’t trying to make any particular point about what happened there.

    Suggesting that the EDL could be looked on as just a glorified post code street gang might sound a bit contrarian of me, but it was just a passing idea.
    The more you and read up on the street gangs, the less far fetched that idea is though I think. Google throws up all kinds of bad news stories about them. Many are extremly anti-social and violent. A couple of dozen blokes chanting ‘EDL’ in isn’t much worse than coming across the neighbourhood posse on a saturday night I’d say.

  44. douglas clark — on 18th August, 2011 at 5:57 am  

    damon @ 43,

    I too think the EDL are just a glorified post code street gang with a very very small member. Oops. membership.

    Do you not feel that our new chum ‘John Lock’ is assuming an awful lot of authority that he doesn’t really have? I trust you do not see yourself as part of his huge ingrained naturalistic righteousness? In the sense of his personal, inborn, prejudice?

    For I find our new friend a bit wanting in the sympathy stakes. It might have passed him by, but many people here are quite clearly not particularily aggressive nor violent. Nor racist.

    Indeed, most people that have posted here for a while are exactly the opposite.

    One could argue that the authors on here have argued against what John Lock has to say. Vigourously, perhaps.

    It seems to me that this site – which I still love and respect – lost a lot when it scared off jewish commentators over Palestine. It had the potential to be a place where everyone’s voice was heard.

    Perhaps you don’t see that, I cannot remember exactly when you started to comment here, but I can assure you that I was deeply saddened when loud voices suppressed other voices.

    Our new chum John Lock should maybe try to turn the volume down below eleven…..

    But, I suspect, he loves his own voice more than sense…

  45. Sarah AB — on 18th August, 2011 at 8:09 am  

    damon – I agree that dealing with gangs is another important issue as they are responsible for so much crime, particularly violent crime. Their net effect may well be worse than the EDL – however they aren’t (I assume) particularly ideological, and that’s why people focus on the EDL – because they target one group in a bigoted way. I acknowledge that some linked to the EDL may be less bigoted, but, in so far as that is the case, they haven’t – or perhaps can’t – see why their methods are so wrong. Here’s a good quote from Maryam Namazie, making the distinction between fair concerns about Sharia etc and the EDL.

    “And it is also clear who they are from their tactics, one of which is organising demonstrations in front of mosques and terrorising people passing by or entering. Look, if you are concerned about the political Islamic movement and mosques being funded by Islamic states to promotes Islamism, then by all means demonstrate but why not do it at the Qatar embassy (if you are concerned about the Burnley mosque for example) or for that matter Jack Straw’s office (who is thought to be responsible for the Emir of Qatar’s £1.5 million gift to the mosque). Yes I am opposed to faith schools but I wouldn’t stand with a group that brings out thugs in front of an Islamic school and threatens children going in who are sent their by their parents…”

  46. damon — on 18th August, 2011 at 11:02 am  

    Yes Sarah, I agree with that. I’ve never said that the EDL aren’t a problem, just questioned the over the top reaction to them. They make a useful focus to organise around, and in that way, they make a good whipping boy. So that the UAF and other right-on lefties can get their rocks off campaigning about them. That stuff about the Norway killer and the EDL was a total embarrassment in my opinion.

    What I would suggest would be mature political work against the EDL would be to encourage people to ignore them as much as possible. Particularly in a place like Tower Hamlets, where causing alarm and ramping up the drama does no one any good I think. Apart from the posturing wannabe Che Guevaras.

    They are not a welcome development in Britain, but are a symptom of other factors I’d say. And while an eye should be kept on what they do, you could say the same about all kinds of ne’er-do-well social groups.
    It’s a bit like the panic over the skinheads or the mods and rockers.

    And Douglas, you know all about street gangs in Glasgow. Compared to this lot, the EDL are a bunch of pansies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gangs_in_Glasgow

  47. Optimist — on 18th August, 2011 at 11:16 am  

    Just returned from abroad after nearly two weeks only to find that the apoloist-in-chief for the EDL, damon @46, is working overtime.

    He probably missed the following where 125 Sikh kids at a Summer Camp were attacked by a bunch of racist cowards shouting EDL.

    http://www.sikhsangat.org/2011/08/sikh-summer-camp-of-125-kids-in-chigwell-attacked-by-racist-idiots/

  48. douglas clark — on 18th August, 2011 at 11:50 am  

    damon @ 46,

    See you and the EDL? You really don’t want to ignore them, do you? Frankly, you never shut up about them.

    Yes, we know all there is to know about street gangs in Glasgow. It is pretty astonishing that anyone here is actually alive, far less able to talk about it.

    Sometimes, when I go into ‘town’ as we call it, I see men and women of different complections holding hands and going out with each other. They, and everyone else come to that, seems amazingly relaxed about that. I don’t know why you think otherwise.

    Glasgow is not Rosa Parks territory. I am not saying there aren’t idiots, what I am saying is that they are so few that no-one worries about them.

    There is rarely an issue about it, contrary to what you might say.

    It is extremely odd that, whenever I see them, they are not pursued by gangs of tartan bedecked hoods. For that would be what you’d expect from your @46, would it not damon?

    Indeed, it might be the case that the tartan bedecked hoods would see off the EDL, more or less because they are the EDL, or summat.

    Anyway, the folk that ‘hold hands’ and smile at each other suggests that they are not ‘frit’. It suggests they are establishing a relationship. It also suggests that no-one else gives a fuck. I do not know why you subscribe to the minority BNP/EDL viewpoint.

    99% of folk couldn’t care less who loves whom. Indeed most of them would, if asked, be pretty positive about any stable relationship.

    Do you perhaps think, given that you lived in the West End of Glasgow for a while, that your link is a tad overblown? Do you think, perhaps, that your analysis of Glasgow is almost as wrong as your analysis of anywhere else you’ve been?

    You really ought to know better, of Glasgow, or Scotland, than that.

  49. damon — on 18th August, 2011 at 5:56 pm  

    Optimist. You’re the kind of commentator a serious political blog really doesn’t need. You try to drag everything down to it’s most mundane. I didn’t start this thread.

    Douglas, as usual I haven’t got a clue what you’re on about. Like I said to Optimist, I’m just replying to the OP. My point was that I think that the EDL (and the SDL) deserve about as much attention as the gangs.
    I lived in the West End of Glasgow for two years and rarely saw them.
    But did sometimes. And they’re a problem of course. Like the EDL …. and SDL too, who are planning to have a few drinks in an Edinburgh pub in september.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/04/scottish-defence-league-march-edinburgh

    As I’ve already been earmarked by a mod as a ”concern troll” it’s obvious that I’m at somewhat at odds with quite a few PP regulars.

    And Optimist, your link to the Sikh summer camp gatting harassed by local hooligan racists is pathetic. Not that it wasn’t a serious concern in it’s own right, but they way you put it in your post.
    You’re a perfect example of what’s wrong with the left. Did you have a nice holiday?

  50. John Lock — on 18th August, 2011 at 10:01 pm  

    douglas clark

    What a rather odd rambling piece of nothingness you have concocted. Actually very bizarre, quite frankly.

    And you demonstrate absolute ignorance about the subject you choose to post on: The EDL do not have members.

    But the weird prose aside and weird insults aside, you are one of those that spends his time in perpetual “offence” for others? That is how you like to spend your days?

    How ridiculous. Especially in response to facts.

    Where were you were in these riots, I wonder? My guess is nowhere near them. Not even close.

    My guess is that you have never spent anytime in these affected areas, let alone been brought up around the nasty, nihilistic, depressing violent black hole that is the existence of so many in our inner cities today where these riots errupted.

    A small taste of which exploded onto the TV screens for those like you (I suspect) who live so far removed from the reality of it, it is not realy, and you can comfortably sit back and pontificate and wax lyrical with bullshit excuses.

    But anyhow, my questions are very simple, why can no one give a simple straight answer?

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?. In fact who have the EDL ever shot or killed? How many 5 year old girls have they gunned down?

    Are the EDL behind 54% of London’s street crime? You know, violent muggings and all the fun stuff?

    Or how about gang rape? Statistics in 2009 show that only 8% were carried out by whites, so it doesn’t look like the EDL are behind 92% of gang rapes either.

    Which ‘gangs’ are the real problem, your obvious political disagreement, aside?

  51. Kismet Hardy — on 18th August, 2011 at 10:21 pm  

    John, the point Douglas is trying to get through to you, I think, is comparing an entire race of human beings to a tiny organisation is like comparing Goliath to the tagnut on a monkey’s arse.

    This notion you’ve got that the EDL have a clear vision and those who profess devotion to them have an intelligent idea about that vision beyond ‘I fuckin’ ‘ate muslims and poles and nigger and all them fuckers who gonna kill and rape me family and take me job, cos if that patel paki weren’t ‘ere I’d be a brain surgeon me’ is, quite frankly, pathetic

    Having said that, there is one thing thieving gangs (be they black, Asian or white) have in common with EDL. They boast a fabulous array of evil little pricks. Difference being, there are thousands upon thousands more gangs in the UK than there are EDL followers. And I daresay more braincells…

  52. Don — on 18th August, 2011 at 11:12 pm  

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?.

    I’d be astonished if they were; a few score of dedicated members, maybe a few hundred who will show up, surely not more than a few thousand throughout the country. They would need have half a dozen Tony Montanas in their ranks to do that.

    But of course that was a rhetorical question rather than an argument. As the EDL is so amporphous we have no way of knowing whether EDL adherents are more or less likely to have a history of criminal violence than the average citizen. We can only speculate.

  53. Refresh — on 19th August, 2011 at 10:37 am  

    ‘Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?.’

    Not yet. And probably not directly under the EDL banner, given the pioneering spirit found in Norway.

  54. Refresh — on 19th August, 2011 at 3:19 pm  

    A bit more of the pioneering spirit:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/13539#comment-241449

    ‘”At the time of the alleged offences, all three people claimed membership of the English Defence League.”’

    It will be interesting to see if they deny membership when it comes to Crown Court.

  55. Refresh — on 19th August, 2011 at 3:22 pm  

    ‘We can only speculate.’

    I speculate that they will be more likely to wear their aggression as a badge of honour.

    ‘Davies, wearing a pale crocheted top, giggled as the charge was read out.’

  56. John Lock — on 19th August, 2011 at 6:33 pm  

    Kismet Hardy

    Well it is good that you are able to decipher pure gibberish, but that was not the point being made at all.

    I haven’t compared ‘an entire race of human beings’ to anything so that is either totally dishonest or totally mistaken.

    The obvious point I am making is that you may not believe in what the EDL stand for, and that is just as much your right as it is theirs to believe what that believe, but it is ludicrous to keep trying to make out that they are even remotely in the same camp as the black gangs that commit the percentage of crimes listed above, despite being a very small percentage overall.

    Simple really.

    Refresh

    Ah, back to these mythical “links” to the EDL. I believe someone asked for proof of this earlier, especially given that the Norwegian police have categorically denied any such links and that this maniac acted alone.

  57. jamal — on 19th August, 2011 at 6:48 pm  

    “Breivik was told by EDL supporters that he would be most welcome, to which he replied: “I hoped so:) it’s our common struggle against the islamofacists.”

    EDL supporters were keen to have his support. ‘Concerned’ replied: ‘Bravo sigurd admire your views and courage. no surrender and welcome.”

    http://www.icare.to/news.php?en/2011-07#ANDERS%20BEHRING%20BREIVIK%20WAS%20IN%20CONTACT%20WITH%20THE%20EDL%20%28Searchlight%20UK%20Press%20Release}

    yep clearly no links to the edl whatsoever

  58. Refresh — on 19th August, 2011 at 7:35 pm  

    ‘Ah, back to these mythical “links” to the EDL.’

    You are only fooling yourself.

    Breivik himself believes he was acting (pioneering) for the ‘greater good’ sought by the EDL, Gellar, Spencer et al.

    How many more out there think the same?

  59. Jai — on 19th August, 2011 at 8:11 pm  

    And the dickhead was a high ranking Freemason, doesnt really go with being a “christian extremist.”

    It is the Norwegian police who are describing Anders Breivik as a Christian fundamentalist. In fact, they were the first to do so.

    Ah, back to these mythical “links” to the EDL. I believe someone asked for proof of this earlier, especially given that the Norwegian police have categorically denied any such links and that this maniac acted alone.

    False. The Norwegian police have stated that they believe Breivik was acting alone in the case of this particular terrorist attack, although they are still not 100% sure. They have certainly not denied Breivik’s links to the EDL, which is a matter of heavily-documented fact.

    A fact which will, of course, be disingenuously dismissed by certain individuals as “communist Searchlight” propaganda, but that is to be expected. After all, the EDL’s own leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka “Tommy Robinson”) lied to Jeremy Paxman and the wider BBC Newsnight audience live on air when he claimed that he doesn’t know Daryl Hobson, despite the fact that Hobson is one of the EDL’s senior organisers and authenticated photographic evidence of Hobson and Yaxley-Lennon together is widely available in the public domain.

    And, of course, Hobson himself has publicly confirmed that Anders Breivik was in contact with the EDL.

    But once again, all this will be dismissed, ignored, or “explained” with some excuse or other. Such a reaction is to be expected when it comes to the Far-Right. The Big Lie technique in action.

  60. John Lock — on 19th August, 2011 at 8:48 pm  

    <em Jai

    The only big lie here is coming from you and Searchlight.

    “It is the Norwegian police who are describing Anders Breivik as a Christian fundamentalist.”

    Which would be very strange, considering he doesn’t consider himself religious at all nor to have any relationship with God or Jesus Christ.

    “If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.”

    What else?

    “They have certainly not denied Breivik’s links to the EDL”

    Really?

    “Norwegian domestic intelligence chief Janne Kristiansen has told the BBC no evidence has so far been found linking Anders Behring Breivik with far-right extremists in Norway or elsewhere.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363

    “There is no evidence of links between mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik and the English far-right, according to Norway’s domestic intelligence chief.

    Janne Kristiansen, director of the Norwegian Police Security Service, said no proof has yet been found to link the 32-year-old gunman to right-wing extremists in the UK.”

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/explosives-destroyed-gunman-farm-025118147.html

    “… which is a matter of heavily-documented fact.”

    Not even remotely. It is a link to a Searchlight propaganda piece that says:

    “Anders Behring Breivik was in contact with the English Defence League … he exchanged numerous messages with EDL supporters using his internet pseudonym Sigurd Jorsalfare”

    Really. This is a heavily-documented fact?!

    The maniac posts some messages anonymously and before his murder spree on an internet forum!

    Are you for real?

    Well John Lock isn’t my real name and I have posted messages here, so am I linked to Pickled Politics or you?

    “Perhaps more importantly than the individual contacts … “

    There were no “individual contacts” proved at all, so I guess the rest must be important …

    “Breivik and the EDL share the same ideology and worldview.”

    The reality? He actually has this to say about the EDL:

    “The EDL, on the other hand, IS a democratic movement. They STILL believe that the democratic system can solve Britain’s problems… This is why the EDL harshly condemns any and all revolutionary conservative movements that employ terror as a tool, such as the KT. And this is why, we, the KT view the EDL as naïve fools … “

  61. Refresh — on 19th August, 2011 at 10:50 pm  

    John Lock,

    I don’t want to misunderstand your position, your last comment seems to acknowledge the same goals as Breivik. The difference: He’s gone for a shortcut.

    Are you in a leadership position at the EDL? If you are, can you explain how membership works? I accept joining a facebook group should not constitute membership, but on Newsnight EDL seemed pretty keen to use those numbers (are there really ’100,000 members’?).

    And how does democracy operate within the EDL, without a membership?

    The alternative view would be: all those disparate ‘EDL members’ (not sure how else to describe them), are waiting for signals via facebook and other social media to turn up at ‘reclaim the land’ rallies up and down England.

    A bit like the riots proper.

  62. John Lock — on 20th August, 2011 at 10:33 am  

    Refresh

    I see you have gone for the smear and false association route rather then the fact and honest debate route. How predicable.

    The actual reality, not the propaganda, of these so-called Breivik / EDL “links” are above: You can’t dispute them, so instead I must be associated with the EDL because I point out the lies.

    Of course, you and everyone else with a vested interest in those lies will then proceed along the lines of the new lie and routinely address me as ‘EDL’ with all the pantomime rage and moral indignation that comes with it.

    Hardly subtle. In fact you have attempted to place me in a leadership role just to really make sure!

    This is why people do not trust polarization people on either wing: They lie. They always lie. They always will. They cannot be trusted to ever tell the truth, in fact.

    So that comment fail aside, the very first fail occurs in your very first sentence:

    ” I don’t want to misunderstand your position, your last comment seems to acknowledge the same goals as Breivik”

    And once again you have totally misunderstood the post. Entirely.

    My last comment was “The reality? He actually has this to say about the EDL:”

    The bit after that? That came directly from Breivik. Now do you understand? Its not ‘my position’ at all. Breivik had no time for the EDL.

    As for members, the EDL have none. And as for democracy, well, I would say Breivik wasn’t talking about internal motions and the like but that the EDL don’t believe in that sacred cow of the left: Violent revolution.

    Anymore association games or canards? I must say you are not very good at it.

  63. Jai — on 20th August, 2011 at 12:37 pm  

    Refresh,

    I don’t want to misunderstand your position,

    I’ll make his position very clear indeed for you. “John Lock” is more commonly known as “Dan Dare”, a prolific commenter on the neo-Nazi forum Stormfront and the similarly racist website Majority Rights.

    He has also used more than a dozen thinly-veiled aliases on Pickled Politics during the past couple of years (including “Reza”), and became particularly prolific in his “Dan Dare” incarnation in the run-up to the British elections last year, especially in terms of his support for the BNP. Amongst a long list of dubious views, he is an enthusiastic proponent of the policies of the Third Reich, as you can read on the following thread where he posted a huge number of comments: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/?p=8222

    Unfortunately for him, the more he argues, and the more indignant and supercilious he becomes, and the more he writes, the more he shoots himself in the foot by inadvertently proving again and again that he is the same person.

    He’ll furiously deny it, of course. But one of the unintended results of his commenting so heavily on the internet, especially on the same topics and frequently involving very long comments in his highly distinctive writing style, is that it makes it very easy indeed for everyone else to instantly identify him.

  64. John Lock — on 20th August, 2011 at 1:44 pm  

    Jai

    I see you have abandoned trying to spin your Breivik / EDL “links” lie altogether now. I can see why: I shot it down in flames.

    As an alternative you are going for a massive upstake of the association and smears tactic started by refreash.

    In fact it is a demented leap, of which for you have as much proof of as you do for your Breivik / EDL “links” lie. I.e None whatsoever.

    I don’t need to furiously deny anything, Jai. It is not true. Its that simple. And you know it.

    Its an unsubstantiated lie to cover up and distract from the fact that you have nothing but hot air and propaganda for your Breivik / EDL “links.”

    The very definition of Ad Hom is ‘to the man.’

    What about the facts, Jai? Where are those? Why can’t you supply facts and proof, Jai?

  65. Jai — on 20th August, 2011 at 2:35 pm  

    “Norwegian domestic intelligence chief Janne Kristiansen has told the BBC no evidence has so far been found linking Anders Behring Breivik with far-right extremists in Norway or elsewhere.”

    What Janne Kristiansen actually said was the following:

    Ms Kristiansen, who heads Norway’s Police Security Service, told the BBC: “We don’t have indications that he has been part of a broader movement or that he has been in connection with other cells or that there are other cells.”

    But she added that the possible existence of accomplices was being investigated. “I don’t think there is any limits to the evil in this person’s head,” she said. “We can’t take any chance with this person.”

    About contacts with right-wing activists in the UK or other countries, she said: “We are in close contact with our sister services in Europe, America and elsewhere.”

    (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363)

    Both of the BBC News articles involved are dated 27 July. Breivik’s connections with both the EDL and the Norwegian Defence League have subsequently been investigated and heavily documented by numerous mainstream news sources in both Europe and the United States, involving professional journalists from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Breivik even emailed his manifesto to Daryl Hobson, one of the EDL’s main organisers and an individual who has been photographed with Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (despite the latter’s false claims on Newsnight that they don’t know each other).

    And again, it is the Norwegian police who are describing Breivik as a “Christian fundamentalist”, and have done so from the outset, as confirmed in the following BBC News article:

    “At Utoeya, the water is still being searched for more victims,” deputy police chief Roger Andresen told reporters.

    “We have no more information than… what has been found on [his] own websites, which is that it goes towards the right and that it is, so to speak, Christian fundamentalist.”

    (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356)

    But “John Lock”/”Dan Dare”/”Reza” will continue to twist and turn and contort, as you can see from his increasingly irate and aggressive tone in #64. And with every word he writes, he self-destructively continues to reinforce the fact that these aliases actually constitute the same author. As I said, he’s posted so many lengthy comments on this website and others so many times that he is completely unable to hide it.

  66. John Lock — on 20th August, 2011 at 4:12 pm  

    Jai

    This is quite possibly the most bizarre thread I have ever been involved in anywhere.

    Your Ad Hom / Smear / Association tactics are of a whole new dimension. I could see where refresh was going with it, but you really do take this weird deceit to a whole new level.

    It is a very spectacular attempt at the big lie you referenced earlier, and you are obviously a great fan of.

    I love the bit where my pointing out your demented and absolutely transparent tactics translates to my ” increasingly irate and aggressive tone”

    Beautifully Orwellian. Utterly loopy. As see-through as it comes.

    So again, Jai, where is the proof for any of this? Why can’t you prove any of it? Could it be because it is a massive whooper!!

    Anyway, that aside, all you have done is reposted my link to the BBC article!

    Norway’s Police Security Service says:

    “We don’t have indications that he has been part of a broader movement or that he has been in connection with other cells or that there are other cells.”

    That is as clear as day. No links, no part of anything else. And that is why the BBC said:

    “Norwegian domestic intelligence chief Janne Kristiansen has told the BBC no evidence has so far been found linking Anders Behring Breivik with far-right extremists in Norway or elsewhere.”

    Because that is the case. That is what has been said. That is obvious to anyone.

    That is also the last official quote on the matter I can find, because that is the last Norwegian Police position on it.

    But do feel free to prove me wrong with an actual quote from the Norwegian Police stating that they now have evidence of a link to the EDL and are investigating it.

    Good luck finding it though, Jai, because it doesn’t exist. And it doesn’t exist because the “links” between the EDL and Breivik doesn’t exist

    Indeed Breivik made his disdain for the EDL very clear:

    “The EDL, on the other hand, IS a democratic movement. They STILL believe that the democratic system can solve Britain’s problems… This is why the EDL harshly condemns any and all revolutionary conservative movements that employ terror as a tool, such as the KT. And this is why, we, the KT view the EDL as naïve fools … “

    As for Dobson, well, who is he exactly? A google search didn’t turn up much at all. Can’t really be that important. But you say Breivik emailed him a copy of his manifesto? And that is proof of what, exactly? That he received an email?

    Your second BBC link doesn’t work either. But I suspect the police may have said that (so to speak) before they realised that Breivik must be the only Christian fundamentalist that doesn’t have a relationship with either Christ or God!

    You keep pushing the lie that is the Breivik / EDL “link” and say it is “heavily documented” but so far you have only linked to a Searchlight propaganda piece that takes anonymous postings on a public internet forum, and before his rampage at that, to be evidence of a “link.”

    Something no sane person would consider to be evidence of anything other then a desperate attempt to smear to political opponents.

    Something you are clearly quite well versed in.

  67. Refresh — on 20th August, 2011 at 5:46 pm  

    My comment to you was to set the scene so we could clarify matters and move forward. If it is a debate you want.

    You speak with such authority on membership of the EDL, it would be normal to ask the question (it was a question, and one you can answer easily) whether you are involved in at the leadership level. You have been adamant that there is no membership. And presumably by quoting Breivik you acknowledge there is some democratic structure operating at the EDL – so how can democracy operate within the EDL if there is no membership.

    There are so many other questions. Specifically what do you know about their financing?

    But much more importantly: Are you Reza and Dan Dare?

  68. John Lock — on 20th August, 2011 at 6:49 pm  

    Refresh

    Your comment was clearly to try and associate me with the EDL in some way rather then address the facts and further debate. Its an old tactic on the internet, Refresh.

    However, your partner, Jai, has now taken to all new dimensions and become both the most dishonest thread commentator and the most unhinged I have ever come across.

    I have answered all of your ‘questions’ i.e association tactics.

    It doesn’t take an expert to know that the EDL has no membership: A simple visit to their site and the complete lack of a membership section proves it. So does the lack of constitution. So does the lack of due fees.

    So it was not a normal question to ask if I am an EDL leader at all. It was a transparent attempt to move away from debate and into emotive associations, an attempt to make me defend myself from a position that you have created. I will play along just once: I have no “links” at all to the EDL.

    I answered you question about Breivik already. Here it is again for you:

    “And as for democracy, well, I would say Breivik wasn’t talking about internal motions and the like but that the EDL don’t believe in that sacred cow of the left: Violent revolution.”

    Tell which part of this you do not understand, and I will explain it carefully to you.

    And for your last piece of Ad Hom, the Reza / Dan Dare one, I already answered that too. No. Are you? Do they even exist Are you really a Jai sockpuppet, Refresh?

    You see, I could just as easily claim to unmask a commentator who opposed my arguments so effectively as some bogeyman too, to discredit him / her.

    I could just as easily claim that Jai (or anyone else) is really someone else from Refresh to Pol Pot to Nick Lowles to Dr Evil and claim that my only proof lies in my ability to just know they are and to only claim this ‘knowledge’ after having had my contentions thoroughly ripped apart.

    Not to actually present anything tangible in the way of proof, but to just claim it (again oddly only after being trounced) and then keep saying that the denials of Jai only serve to prove that he is indeed this bogeyman that I have arbitrarily assigned to him.

    That he is indeed Refresh and Refresh is indeed Jai.

    You might think that constitutes debate and sanity, but I think any normal honest person, whatever their political stance, would see it for the demented playground stunt it is.

  69. Jai — on 21st August, 2011 at 10:05 pm  

    Refresh,

    But much more importantly: Are you Reza and Dan Dare?

    Yes, he is. As I said earlier, the more he writes, the more obvious he makes it. He’s been so prolific on PP (and several other websites) in terms of both the number and length of his comments during the past couple of years that it’s now completely impossible for him to disguise his identity regardless of the alias he uses.

    As if he wasn’t already a liability to the so-called “non-racist” EDL just like he ended up becoming a liability to the BNP in his previous online incarnations, he’s even been unable to restrain himself from repeatedly rambling on about black people in his amateurish efforts to deflect criticism away from the EDL (see: #35, #37, #50, #56). Thereby proving the very point Rumbold succinctly made in the main article.

  70. John Lock — on 21st August, 2011 at 10:31 pm  

    Jai

    You are off your rocker. Seriously mate, you need help.

    Do you really not think this bizarre tactic is as transparent as it gets?

    You get your silly propaganda pieces exposed for the rubbish they are, so I have to be Dr Evil. Demented.

    Of course you have no proof whatsoever for this latest piece of fluff (how could there be, its a pack of lies) just as you have no proof whatsoever for your spurious Breivik / EDL “links.”

    You can’t produce one single piece of evidence for anything you claim.

    “And he’s now inadvertently quoting whole chunks of his previous comments on PP under different aliases practically verbatim”

    Really? Either produce these “whole chunks” as evidence then or admit you are as mad as a box of frogs.

    Good luck with that.

    I have proved all of my points here conclusively anyway: There is no Breivik / EDL “link” and so of course there is no proof for it.

    The Norwegian police have already categorically denied any evidence for any “links” whatsoever has been found between Breivik and any movement, the EDL included, and that really is all there is to it.

    Enjoy your week, Jai, I would start it of with a trip to the doctor if I were you.

  71. Don — on 22nd August, 2011 at 12:57 am  

    Almost every time there is an article on the far right soooner or later someone with John’s prose style, arguments, persistency and turn of phrase turns up.

    He’s an old and familiar nuisance.

  72. damon — on 22nd August, 2011 at 1:53 am  

    He’s an old and familiar nuisance.

    But some people love to have a real life ”fascist” to rail against. I suggest that the EDL aren’t worth half the attention they get and I’m ignored or called a concern troll, but an EDL or BNP supporter comes along and suddenly the place gets lively and excited.

  73. Don — on 22nd August, 2011 at 10:34 am  

    Aw, feeling neglected?

  74. Jai — on 22nd August, 2011 at 10:40 am  

    Don,

    Almost every time there is an article on the far right soooner or later someone with John’s prose style, arguments, persistency and turn of phrase turns up.

    He’s an old and familiar nuisance.

    Indeed. He’s even been reciting numerous chunks of his previous comments as “Reza” and the Third Reich-supporting “Dan Dare” verbatim, and is continuing to do so.

    If this type of incompetent online supporter is the “best” that the EDL have to offer then they really are in trouble. He couldn’t be more of a liability to the EDL if he tried, but he already proved that point when he started repeatedly ranting about black people and inadvertently confirmed exactly what Rumbold discussed in the main article.

  75. damon — on 22nd August, 2011 at 3:03 pm  

    Aw, feeling neglected?

    Well .. I do come here looking for some enlightend analysis, but things seem to be being pitched for the likes of Jamal and DC these days.
    Is there to be no serious debate about how the threat from EDL can be discussed?
    I can’t see why so much attention is given to the leadership of what isn’t more than a Facebook football hooligan group.

    They do pose some dangers. The biggest one would be to popularise antagonism towards muslims I think. There’s not much to be done against them on that level, any more than I might wish all hooligans and violent people to disappear.
    What the left or those against sectarian division and racism can do however is be sensible and clear about what the threat is – and doing something different to counter it.
    Jai’s way is one way. Which seems similar to UAF’s and George Galloway’s.

    Another way would be to take a cooler, less shrill look at them and try to build up a more mature response.
    It’s not as easy as the shouty stuff, and not as exciting either, but it would surely be worthwhile to at least look at alternatives.

    The EDL exist, and are a problem. Particularly on days when they come out for their demonstrations. But the reason that their presence results in policing like it was a Millwall v West Ham football match is largely down to the way the EDL has been dealt with from the start.
    Most anti-racists seem to think this is the way to do it, and that’s fair enough even though I disagree.
    But what I’m most disappointed about is the way this approach to the EDL won’t bear any criticism. When I’ve tried to suggest a different way, all that’s happened is some idiot’s said I must be a fascist.
    I had hoped that PP was the place that could try a bit harder in exploring different avenues.

    It would be a lot harder of course to go to Whitechapel and convince local people there, particularly as UAF etc have ramped up people’s fears – to just let the EDL have their march and try to ignore them. To get on with running the market and not to get sucked into this ”No Pasaran” crap, which is being put about mostly by eejits who took ‘Citizen Smith’ too seriously when growing up.

    Any chance of that happening Don?

  76. Rumbold — on 22nd August, 2011 at 7:19 pm  

    Heh Don.

  77. John Lock — on 22nd August, 2011 at 7:38 pm  

    Don

    By that you mean someone able to take apart the flimsy nonsense touted by the extreme left as fact?

    Lets face, both you and Jai were taken apart here.

    You can’t argue the facts anymore so you invent a conspiracy theory as a sideshow and try argue the man.

    Pure Ad Hom.

  78. John Lock — on 22nd August, 2011 at 7:39 pm  

    Jai
    Haven’t been to the doctor I see?!

    “Indeed. He’s even been reciting numerous chunks of his previous comments as “Reza” and the Third Reich-supporting “Dan Dare” verbatim”

    You have already been challenged to prove this. You haven’t.

    Says it all.

    “If this type of incompetent online supporter is the “best” that the EDL have to offer then they really are in trouble. He couldn’t be more of a liability to the EDL if he tried”

    I’m nothing to do with the EDL, but it strikes me that you are very much UAF and a liability to all the left.

    I exposed your Breivik / EDL “links” propaganda for the rubbish it is. Hence this.

    You are a very incompetent liar. Very easily exposed.

  79. Refresh — on 22nd August, 2011 at 10:09 pm  

    John Lock

    There have been plenty of opportunities on here for you to express yourself cleary but tended to almost always duck the question and obfuscate.

    And abuse commenters.

    You wrote with such authority on the membership (or lack thereof) in the EDL, it was not unreasonable to ask if you were a part of the leadership. And as such would have been able to write clearly about its finances.

    Your response? More obfuscation.

    Had you been able to respond clearly (we’re past worrying about being concise), then we could have moved on to EDL ideology. An ideology shared by Gellar, Spencer, Wilders and Breivik. If you are not an EDL member (I think we are past splitting that hair), then you have put yourself forward as cover.

    I do not for a moment believe you’ve proven yourself to be in a position to ridicule anyone, not the regulars and least of all Jai.

    You’ve had the chance to debate, but your obfuscation leaves you tied in knots.

  80. John Lock — on 23rd August, 2011 at 7:28 pm  

    Refresh

    Rubbish from start to finish.

    Anyone can read over the comments here and see that I presented only facts, answered every question, even the most obvious Ad Hom ones and then became the subject of insults and bizarre conspiracy theories.

    People might not like the facts presented, but this demented departure from truth and sanity in the face of reality is as low as it gets on internet threads.

  81. Don — on 23rd August, 2011 at 8:29 pm  

    John,

    Which point of mine did you demolish?

  82. douglas clark — on 1st September, 2011 at 11:25 am  

    Seems to me, John Lock, or whoever you really are that it is you that has a problem with understanding:

    You wrote this:

    douglas clark

    What a rather odd rambling piece of nothingness you have concocted. Actually very bizarre, quite frankly.

    And you demonstrate absolute ignorance about the subject you choose to post on: The EDL do not have members.

    But the weird prose aside and weird insults aside, you are one of those that spends his time in perpetual “offence” for others? That is how you like to spend your days?

    How ridiculous. Especially in response to facts.

    Where were you were in these riots, I wonder? My guess is nowhere near them. Not even close.

    My guess is that you have never spent anytime in these affected areas, let alone been brought up around the nasty, nihilistic, depressing violent black hole that is the existence of so many in our inner cities today where these riots errupted.

    A small taste of which exploded onto the TV screens for those like you (I suspect) who live so far removed from the reality of it, it is not realy, and you can comfortably sit back and pontificate and wax lyrical with bullshit excuses.

    But anyhow, my questions are very simple, why can no one give a simple straight answer?

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?. In fact who have the EDL ever shot or killed? How many 5 year old girls have they gunned down?

    Are the EDL behind 54% of London’s street crime? You know, violent muggings and all the fun stuff?

    Or how about gang rape? Statistics in 2009 show that only 8% were carried out by whites, so it doesn’t look like the EDL are behind 92% of gang rapes either.

    Which ‘gangs’ are the real problem, your obvious political disagreement, aside?

    and you said this?

    douglas clark

    What a rather odd rambling piece of nothingness you have concocted. Actually very bizarre, quite frankly.

    And you demonstrate absolute ignorance about the subject you choose to post on: The EDL do not have members.

    But the weird prose aside and weird insults aside, you are one of those that spends his time in perpetual “offence” for others? That is how you like to spend your days?

    How ridiculous. Especially in response to facts.

    Where were you were in these riots, I wonder? My guess is nowhere near them. Not even close.

    My guess is that you have never spent anytime in these affected areas, let alone been brought up around the nasty, nihilistic, depressing violent black hole that is the existence of so many in our inner cities today where these riots errupted.

    A small taste of which exploded onto the TV screens for those like you (I suspect) who live so far removed from the reality of it, it is not realy, and you can comfortably sit back and pontificate and wax lyrical with bullshit excuses.

    But anyhow, my questions are very simple, why can no one give a simple straight answer?

    Are the EDL responsible for 80% of London’s gun crime?. In fact who have the EDL ever shot or killed? How many 5 year old girls have they gunned down?

    Are the EDL behind 54% of London’s street crime? You know, violent muggings and all the fun stuff?

    Or how about gang rape? Statistics in 2009 show that only 8% were carried out by whites, so it doesn’t look like the EDL are behind 92% of gang rapes either.

    Which ‘gangs’ are the real problem, your obvious political disagreement, aside?

    I’d be quite interested in you telling me who I should avoid. I am very fond of our good host, a certain Mr Hundal. Perhaps if he lived North of the Border he’d have a proper political party to support, but he doesn’t and he’s a person worthy of my respect….

    I am also very fond of several writers here, such as that mad git Rumbold, or that Jai chap. I know neither of them will take offence, they are both my chums…

    Have you any chums?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but liking folk, is allowed around here. It seems to me that you see colour as a measure of violence? Would that be right? Is our good host Sunny Hundal likely to carry a knife? Is he likely to stab you?

    Of course not. What you are into, dear John, is assumptions or, dare I say it, prejudice.

    It is you that excuses your prejudices on the back of ignorance. I would be far more likely to survive a night with Sunny Hundal than I would with you and your chums.

    Why? Because you are just wrong about people and Mr Hundal isn’t.

    I do not really know Don, he is the Stig of Pickled Politics, but he tends to talk sense and drive really fast, well, not the latter perhaps, but you really couldn’t demolish anything John.

    Seems to me.

  83. douglas clark — on 1st September, 2011 at 11:42 am  

    It seems to me that the John Locks of this world are a bit sad. Why is it that colour matters?

    I am quite enjoying a book by some chap called Jasper Fforde where you will live and die on the basis of your literary favouritism. Liking, say, Bronte is as likely to get you killed as loving Dickens. Well, why not? It is just as much an issue as the colour of your skin. You Bronte freaks deserve to die!

    That is what the likes of John Lock would have us do. It is ridiculous and self serving bullshit.

    I really, really don’t like Mr Lock.

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