Racists attack ‘Pakis’ on the tube and film it


by Sunny
26th July, 2011 at 3:30 pm    

A reader just sent me this link which I’d missed earlier. The EverythingEDL twitter account posted this video of an EDL member filming himself attacking random Asians on the tube.

The video has violence – it is NOT safe for work
[Flash 10 is required to watch video]

If the video doesn’t work for you, see it here.

Everything EDL say it was the EDL member ‘Cobz Smith’. If you know more, get in touch.

Update: Here is more on the guy who posted the video first, and then bragged about it on Facebook.

[I've changed the title as it turns out the EDL didn't exist when this was filmed (but may have joined EDL after)]


              Post to del.icio.us


Filed in: Race politics






226 Comments below   |  

Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. sunny hundal

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  2. Just Another Gooner

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  3. A&E Reg

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  4. Aya

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  5. James O'Malley

    This is unfathomably horrible. RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  6. Will Dean

    This is sickening. RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/AubatM5


  7. Payam Torabi

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  8. Beaker

    Jesus fucking christ, edl member attacking "pakis" on tube. #edlnotracisthonest http://bit.ly/nGwmHW


  9. Cambridge Scraper

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  10. Naveed

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  11. The New Republic

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  12. HullRePublic

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  13. Matt Leys

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  14. Mark

    “@sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/LRwOGK6” seriously, WTF?


  15. Mark

    “@sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/LRwOGK6” seriously, WTF?


  16. GimpHag

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  17. GimpHag

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  18. Becky Brynolf

    An EDL member attacks 'pakis' on the tube and films himself doing it. http://bit.ly/pTcjFv Disgusting.


  19. People on the Tube

    An EDL member attacks 'pakis' on the tube and films himself doing it. http://bit.ly/pTcjFv Disgusting.


  20. Chris Cramer

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  21. Philip Copley

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  22. Christine Robertson

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  23. Christine Robertson

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  24. Shelly Asquith

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  25. Chris Noice

    An EDL member attacks 'pakis' on the tube and films himself doing it. http://bit.ly/pTcjFv Disgusting.


  26. Chris Noice

    An EDL member attacks 'pakis' on the tube and films himself doing it. http://bit.ly/pTcjFv Disgusting.


  27. Luther

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  28. Luther

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  29. Richard Johnson

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  30. Richard Johnson

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  31. Ahmed

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  32. Ahmed

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  33. Richard Johnson

    Everyone should watch this video to see first hand the brutality and evil that lies at the heart of the EDL http://goo.gl/KqwG9


  34. Richard Johnson

    Everyone should watch this video to see first hand the brutality and evil that lies at the heart of the EDL http://goo.gl/KqwG9


  35. Charlotte Stamper

    I feel sick. Revolting. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it. http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  36. Liz McShane

    Everyone should watch this video to see first hand the brutality and evil that lies at the heart of the EDL http://goo.gl/KqwG9


  37. Lucy Price

    Everyone should watch this video to see first hand the brutality and evil that lies at the heart of the EDL http://goo.gl/KqwG9


  38. bill bold

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  39. bill bold

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  40. Rory Lawless

    I feel sick. Revolting. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it. http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  41. t hill

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  42. Dr Andy Hickson

    RT @rabbitinahat An EDL member attacks 'pakis' on the tube and films himself doing it. http://t.co/woX8lVH Disgusting.


  43. Nat Davies

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  44. Nat Davies

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  45. Seth Gillman

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  46. George Woods

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  47. George Woods

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  48. Jon Cartwright

    I feel sick. Revolting. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it. http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  49. Robert Ryan

    “@sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/LRwOGK6” seriously, WTF?


  50. rahooligan

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  51. Ziggy Stardust

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  52. Ziggy Stardust

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : #EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  53. Henna

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  54. David Sketchley

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  55. Shoaib Taimur

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  56. MCB

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  57. miss-sweetlykejalebi

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  58. Dorset Race Equality

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  59. Omar B

    This is sickening. EDL attacking asians on a tube. I call THIS terrorism. http://t.co/Fh6Yqrt


  60. John Kenzy

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  61. miss-sweetlykejalebi

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  62. Clive Burgess

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  63. ST

    This is sickening. EDL attacking asians on a tube. I call THIS terrorism. http://t.co/Fh6Yqrt


  64. Iftikhar Ali

    “@MuslimCouncil: Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube & films it http://t.co/ASUphoS via @sunny_hundal


  65. Kazi V

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  66. Kiran Kaur

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  67. Read for yourself

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  68. Feenix

    FUCKING SCUM. RT @Zzigggyyy: RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : #EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  69. Fuchsia Celius-Blix

    FUCK. http://t.co/Qa3Io4S


  70. Absar-ul-Hasan

    @alteridom Enjoy! http://t.co/0vehiOr


  71. Sam Ambreen

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  72. Abdul-Azim Ahmed

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  73. Duncan Stott

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  74. Philippe Legrain

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  75. Niknam Hussain

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr >> warning contains violence


  76. dave m

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  77. Foz

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  78. A D

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  79. Paul Wood

    English Defence League aren't racist or violent…! RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/1kxolnk


  80. Rocky Hamster

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  81. Asim Haneef

    EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/bzgW5d4


  82. David Burling

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  83. dm

    This is hard to watch. Reality of EDL thuggery. RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/VrvV7pX


  84. Kashaf Chaudhry

    EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/bzgW5d4


  85. Scott Euden

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://bit.ly/pTcjFv


  86. Ratcatcher

    Blogged: : EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://bit.ly/ndI9Nr


  87. 1st Ethical CT

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  88. Naadir Jeewa

    EDL films himself attacking Pakistanis on the tube, but somehow, this is not violent terrorism? http://t.co/NS7iWmw


  89. Sophie Khan

    Pickled Politics » EDL member attacks ‘Pakis’ on the tube and films it http://t.co/8GU7bq0
    I can't even believe this is happening. Sickened


  90. Mohammed Marikar

    Shocking and unprovoked violence – EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it http://t.co/KWyOSbw via @sunny_hundal


  91. Rob Calcutt

    EDL: not cool. (warning, this is fairly upsetting) http://t.co/9B1Pag3


  92. elliot herman

    EDL member attacks ‘Pakis’ on the tube and films it (disturbing footage) http://t.co/9B1Pag3 (via @robderc @sunny_hundal)


  93. Rajiv Desai

    EDL member attacks ‘Pakis’ on the tube and films it (disturbing footage) http://t.co/YBFcEGU (via @sunny_hundal) -> Sickening


  94. Its Only A Name

    “@robderc: EDL: not cool. (warning, this is fairly upsetting) http://t.co/mKAcjwU” PLEASE RT EDL Racists in action


  95. Secunder Kermani

    horrific video of racist attack on the tube going around. Being linked to the EDL but police say its from 2008 http://t.co/sRB62WA


  96. Neil A

    Pickled Politics » EDL member attacks ‘Pakis’ on the tube and films it http://t.co/Jcm14SS via @addthis


  97. Sam Malone

    Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  98. Sam Malone

    Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  99. Sam Malone

    Accepting this http://t.co/kWe1Hozy in our society leads to this http://t.co/l7yJ3raF #MyTramExperience #EDL


  100. Sam Malone

    @michelle5124 Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  101. Sam Malone

    @piersmorgan Violent racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience tip of iceberg


  102. Sam Malone

    @londontonight Violent racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience tip of iceberg


  103. Sam Malone

    @BBCNews Violent racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience tip of iceberg


  104. Sam Malone

    @AlexMartin1991 Violent racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience tip of iceberg


  105. Sam Malone

    @SanSania Accepting #MyTramExperience in our society will eventually lead to this- violent racism on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  106. Sam Malone

    @JayceSnuggs Accepting #MyTramExperience in our society will lead to this- Violent racism on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  107. Sam Malone

    @billycometti Accepting #MyTramExperience in society will eventually lead to this- Violent racism on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  108. Sam Malone

    @NabihaMeher Accepting #MyTramExperience in society will eventually lead to this- violent racism on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  109. Sam Malone

    @b34thomas Accepting #MyTramExperience in society will eventually lead to this- violent racism on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  110. Sam Malone

    @btp_uk Is there anything that can be done about this? Violent random rcst attacks on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF Linked to #EDL


  111. Sam Malone

    @NabihaMeher did you see the other link I posted? http://t.co/l7yJ3raF


  112. Amarit Atwal

    RT @michelle5124 "Violent random racist attack on public transport http://t.co/XB0DE5ri – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience" VILE


  113. Sam Malone

    @Call_Me_Draya it gets worse http://t.co/OPs0S5tu #EDL


  114. Sam Malone

    @DeborahJaneOrr Accepting that will lead to this http://t.co/OPs0S5tu


  115. Snidey

    RT @SamMaloneUK: it gets worse http://t.co/inx83ZE7 #EDL <old news, pre edl. still pissed over brievik findings.


  116. Sam Malone

    @DeborahJaneOrr the link http://t.co/OPs0S5tu shows random racist attacks on public transport. Accepting vile rants paves the way.


  117. ill

    @piersmorgan this way way worse. Yet got only a mini amount of media coverage. http://t.co/LH730Y2s


  118. Atiff Ghafar

    RT @sunny_hundal: Racists attack 'Pakis' on the tube and film it http://t.co/1iAbuOPz and you thought the Tram lady was bad


  119. Sam Malone

    Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  120. Snidey

    RT @SamMaloneUK: random racist attack http://t.co/lX5eBlla – Applauded by #EDL member. < Which edl member ?


  121. Sam Malone

    @MeliIbishi Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  122. Sam Malone

    @ArfaBegum Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience was nothing


  123. Sam Malone

    @acthemc Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience was nothing


  124. AC ( of AC & TERRA)

    @acthemc Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience was nothing


  125. Dave Smith

    Violent random racist attack on public transport – http://t.co/l7yJ3raF – Applauded by #EDL member. #MyTramExperience


  126. Bradley Reeson

    don't think The Tram Experience video is nearly as bad as this http://t.co/PJedbVSA


  127. Tyler Ward

    #my tram experience- this is worse http://t.co/enWbKvKN


  128. Monika

    http://t.co/zEhd0PGO just wow. Evil fucking people in this world…it's disgusting.


  129. Raihan Brown

    everyone getting amped over the Tram Lady video, take a look at this http://t.co/gNZ4zPcd AH WUDDI BLUDLCART?


  130. Rav Sidhu

    RT @sunny_hundal: Racists attack 'Pakis' on the tube and film it http://t.co/AgrXV8Vm worse than the women on the tram video


  131. guð

    this is seriously horrifying RT @sunny_hundal EDL member attacks 'Pakis' on the tube and films it. http://t.co/HNuNGeM4


  132. San

    And we end tonight on an utterly depressing note: http://t.co/SUE6Dt1d


  133. Daniel Pitt

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://t.co/ECowRM7u #EDL


  134. Nemesis Republic

    RT @DanielPitt4: Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://t.co/JANHAh0c #EDL


  135. Nazis Not Welcome

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://t.co/ECowRM7u #EDL


  136. Anti Racist Atheist

    Remember, the English Defence League denounce violence! http://t.co/ECowRM7u #EDL




  1. Kismet Hardy — on 26th July, 2011 at 4:32 pm  

    The worst thing to happen to Asians after 11/9 is the Muslims became slowly seperated from the rest. If you wanna go back to targeting Pakis per se, we will unite like we did in Brick Lane, Southall, Luton, Bradford and beyond, and all those Asian badboys that have been idling away in clubs and behind reefers, will rise up again and fuck me will the streets be paved with blood…

    I for one don’t want to see a return of the days when Asian gangs were actually gangs and not pot selling posers. It wasn’t pretty last time round

  2. Optimist — on 26th July, 2011 at 5:20 pm  

    This may seem very shocking to many people but this is real life for many Asians up and down the country. There are whole families who live their lives in daily fear of racist attacks from some ‘yobs’ in their neighborhood or some racist scum they meet on the way to/from home.

    More isolated the Asian communities are more they suffer from such attacks. Then likes of David Cameron have the guile to say that there are some ‘ghettos’. But he has lived all his life in a ‘ghetto’, the ghetto of the super-rich, public schools, elitist clubs.

    He had the nerve to attack multi-culturalism on the same day when the racist and fascist EDL were marching in Luton while he was mouthing rubbish in Munich of all places. No doubt it was a deliberate act to give the message to the EDL that they have his support and not to forget the ‘Munich Rallies’ too!

    No wonder now these racists are going around and attacking innocent people in the trains or attacking mosques like the one in Luton on the same day as the massacre of the innocents in Norway..

    http://uaf.org.uk/2011/07/luton-mosque-attacked-smashed-windows-edl-graffiti-and-swastika/

  3. Kismet Hardy — on 26th July, 2011 at 5:33 pm  

    This is very shocking. My worry is that should this become a trend (the Asian youth of today may well think Paki Bashing was some death metal band, but we all know plenty of psychotic older cousins and uncles who stood up against it back in the day, with bloody consequences), and revenge attacks take place – it is inevitable innocent white people will fill the wrath and the rumble will begin anew.

    I’m still scarred by visiting a cousin as a kid in Luton in 1985 where he stood on one corner of an alley, his friend (he was sikh, but back then they were united as Asians against racists), randomly kicking the shit out of every white person that walked past. It was appalling and disgusting but their justification? It rid the streets of the scum and Luton now pretty much belongs to Asians. Same thing happened in Brdford, Brick Lane, Southall…

    Scary times. I hope this sort of attack doesn’t become as widespread as you seem to be convinced it already is Optimist. When minorities feel cornered and the youth get angry, things get very, very ugly

  4. Kismet Hardy — on 26th July, 2011 at 5:58 pm  

    “Update: Here is more on the guy who posted the video first, and then bragged about it on Facebook.”

    Ha ha! The twat has all of 4 friends on facebook. That makes me feel better

  5. BenSix — on 26th July, 2011 at 6:18 pm  
  6. Kismet Hardy — on 26th July, 2011 at 6:57 pm  

    Jesus Bensix, I’m depressed as it is. Are you trying to finish me off. That link just gave me a full-frontal of Ross Kemp

  7. jamal — on 26th July, 2011 at 6:58 pm  

    with cctv on every underground station the police can catch these morons if they wanted to.

  8. Optimistic — on 26th July, 2011 at 8:50 pm  

    Kismet Hardy -

    Yes, you are right – the situation is not as bad as it was in the 70′s and 80′s because, as you suggested, people organised and fought back. But if you look at the links below, just a small sample, the problem still exists. And it was only a couple of weeks ago when in Dagnham three asian youth were hospitalised by the EDL scum who were allowed to gather outside a rundown property where the local Muslim community wants to build an Islamic centre. Incidently, they were allowed to gather without any police presence.

    http://uaf.org.uk/2011/06/racist-attack-amid-dagenham-edl-demo-victims-speak-out/

    http://www.tmg-uk.org/?p=2033
    http://www.tmg-uk.org/?p=1237
    http://www.tmg-uk.org/?p=1977
    http://www.tmg-uk.org/?p=1844

  9. AbuF — on 26th July, 2011 at 9:48 pm  

    Perhaps they were the police, eh, Jamal?

    Gawd, what a loon.

  10. Optimistic — on 26th July, 2011 at 10:50 pm  

    “1st July 2011: `There has been a lack of local and national political will to address the causes and manifestations of racist attacks.’ This is one of the many findings of research published by the Institute of Race Relations.”

    http://www.foreignersinuk.co.uk/sos_racism-political_will_to_address_causes_of_racist_attacks_missing_irr_3039.html

    “Feb 2011: Research by the Institute of Race Relations reveals the continued prevalence of racial attacks, abuse and harassment occurring late at night and, frequently, fuelled by alcohol.”

    http://www.irr.org.uk/2011/february/ha000011.html

    “2008 :Independent : Huge rise in number of racist attacks:
    Record numbers of racist incidents – from verbal abuse to stabbings – are being reported to police, fuelling fears that levels of Islamophobia are rising.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/huge-rise-in-number-of-racist-attacks-862944.html

  11. damon — on 26th July, 2011 at 11:23 pm  

    Do the EDL have a membership? They certainly attract some violent racist scumbags. The guy looks like a complete moron. The video reminds me the subway scene in Death Wish.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of-57Ivfwz8

    Sadistic bullying and violence is part of a nihilistic subculture that goes right across some sections of society.

    There are some interviews with young prisoners who have talked of how they came to enjoy robbing people with violence and threats and really messing with their victims and scaring them, just to be bad.

    One of the guys in this programme about Feltham Young Offenders prison thinks that robbing a taxi driver and giving him a couple of little stabs to make him give up his car keys is just what you have to do.
    And he just laughs and shrugs about it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_HHVMn6tCY&feature=related

    From 7 minutes.

  12. BenSix — on 27th July, 2011 at 12:06 am  

    Kismet -

    Hah!

  13. anon — on 27th July, 2011 at 3:30 am  

    “I’m still scarred by visiting a cousin as a kid in Luton in 1985 where he stood on one corner of an alley, his friend (he was sikh, but back then they were united as Asians against racists), randomly kicking the shit out of every white person that walked past. It was appalling and disgusting but their justification? It rid the streets of the scum and Luton now pretty much belongs to Asians. Same thing happened in Brdford, Brick Lane, Southall…”

    So by randomly kicking the shit out of every white person that passed them by Muslims (and Sikhs) now ‘own’ Luton, Brdford, Brick Lane, Southall… if what you say is true it didn’t rid the streets of scum the racist scum are just brown these days.

    My memories of 1985 are of visiting the homes of Sikh and Hindu friends in Handsworth and being aghast at the ‘paki’ jokes told by their fathers.
    I remember being called a ‘white paki’ and a ‘paki lover’ when refusing to go out ‘paki bashing’ with the local African Caribbean kids.

    I wonder if Handsworth, Aston… now belong to Asians?

  14. crying a river — on 27th July, 2011 at 3:36 am  

    I guess I’d be sympathetic but then I think about Kriss Donald and what happened to him and all my sympathy evaporates. I hear constantly how racist White people are in the UK from those of a darker complexion and relatively recent arrival. Then, I look at the facts like this “racist” country allowed large numbers of people not the same race as the indigenous peoples to settle and bring their families, giving those people access to higher standards of living and greater opportunity than was available in their native countries,as well often extended citizenship to these newcomers. Often Britain gave asylum to these people fleeing persecution in their original homelands, even at a cost to it’s own people. Such a group of racist scum, we will never find elsewhere. I can’t help comparing the immigrants and guest-workers of Europe to those of the Arab gulf, I doubt many here could as it doesn’t fit the white racist narrative. I was in a relationship with a girl from Coventry for 8 years she was of a punjabi background. We never got any grief or harassment from white people it came mostly from old indian women. Apna and ghorra are racist terms if your background is Indian and you use those terms ever, you are a racist. For that, you can go fuck yourselves.

  15. douglas clark — on 27th July, 2011 at 3:54 am  

    crying a river @ 13,

    I have no idea how that works for you exactly.

    Evaporating sympathy?

    I’d assume I’m whiter than you. What the fuck is this about?

    Often Britain gave asylum to these people fleeing persecution in their original homelands, even at a cost to it’s own people. Such a group of racist scum, we will never find elsewhere. I can’t help comparing the immigrants and guest-workers of Europe to those of the Arab gulf, I doubt many here could as it doesn’t fit the white racist narrative. I was in a relationship with a girl from Coventry for 8 years she was of a punjabi background. We never got any grief or harassment from white people it came mostly from old indian women. Apna and ghorra are racist terms if your background is Indian and you use those terms ever, you are a racist. For that, you can go fuck yourselves.

  16. Sarah AB — on 27th July, 2011 at 7:24 am  

    Kismet – I’m really surprised by your comment – which didn’t seem at all typical of you. That kind of logic could be used by the EDL to get rid of Islamist ‘scum’ with the result that areas ‘belong to whites’ – not all white people are racist scum any more than all brown/muslim people are. [And please note that I have demonstrated against the EDL]

  17. Kismet Hardy — on 27th July, 2011 at 7:36 am  

    Sarah, I’m genuinely scarred by the violence I saw in the 80s (my cousins were really fucking violent in Luton in Southall) and in subsequent years when they mellowed (during the rave generation, god how ecstasy helped mellow violent people) and I asked them to justify their actions, they all said they stood up against paki bashing and it was hard to argue… the horrific practice stopped being the trend it was. So you’ll forgive me when I see this clip and not freak out a little bit that the mellowed may return to aggro again…

  18. Sarah AB — on 27th July, 2011 at 8:09 am  

    Certainly – thanks Kismet – I don’t blame your friends for fighting back – it was just your (untypical) rhetoric which bothered me a bit!

  19. Kismet Hardy — on 27th July, 2011 at 8:22 am  

    Sorry Sarah, I’m starting my own horny midget blog as we speak to outpour all my frustrations. It won’t happen again! :-)

  20. Optimist — on 27th July, 2011 at 10:42 am  

    crying a river –

    No one is claiming that all whites are racist. In fact I would say that the racists, especially the violent type, are only a tiny minority. There are a large number of whites who are not only non-racist but are active and militant anti-racist and these are not only the UAF types.

    I had some relatives who owned a corner shop in Cornwall who, being the only Asian family in the area, were harassed daily by a racist family from the neighbourhood. The police took little or no action. It was not till some white neighbours and friends set up a rota to defend the family – even sleeping at the family’s home overnight – that the police started to take action.

    But, no UAF member needs to apologies either. I am glad there are many of them, and the Anti-Nazi League used to have even more active anti-racists of the ‘white’ variety.

    In fact there were hundreds of thousands of them up and down the country, ranging from school teachers, school students, nurses, dock workers and even pensioners and many of them sacrificed a lot to fight the racists.

    It was because of the Anti-Nazi League as well as the Asian and black communities organising themselves that turned the tide in the 70’s and helped racist thugs of the NF and the BNP types to go into decline.

    damon –

    On clue, just as I expected, you again try to justify the random racist attack by these violent thugs upon innocent Asians by comparing it with daily violent acts of the ‘usual kinds’.

    You do not seem to understand that this attack was upon the whole Asian community, because in place of those two unfortunate young men in the tube, it could have been any one of us. It could have been me, Kismet Hardy, Sunny or any other Asian posters of this blog.

    That violent scumbag attacked those Asians just for being Asians and whether he was a card carrying member of the EDL is immaterial. The policies and propaganda pushed out daily by the EDL encourages these racists to do these vile acts.

    Kismet Hardy -

    ‘Two wrongs don’t make one right’ – but you have already accepted that.

  21. jamal — on 27th July, 2011 at 11:21 am  

    abuf i see the bitterness still consumes you

    we await police investigation as a minimum that is normal protocol in a functioning society, as you should know or maybe you do not?

  22. damon — on 27th July, 2011 at 11:36 am  

    Optimist

    you again try to justify the random racist attack

    You’re not very bright are you? How am I justifying anything? Those attacks are deplorable. In London, I’d say that attacks on strangers could be from any and every race, and just because the motive isn’t as clearly racist as this one, it doesn’t mean that attacks where people are of different races don’t also contain a racial element.
    Post-code gang boys going up to a group of middle class white kids and robbing and intimidating them could well have a racist underlining motive. Victims are picked out for fitting a profile. My own (white) niece and her friends have had this happen a couple of times. And the people trying to rob them have really played up their black street culture to exert power over and fear into the people they are intimidating, and I’d say there is definately racism in that somewhere.

    Just like when I was standing watching the Brixton riots one night thirty years ago after travelling through it on my way home, and some young black guys my age, who would have gone to school in London, tried to rob me of something, by demanding it in made up West Indian accents. (The crash helmet for my motorbike).
    I’m white, and their putting on the accents was meant to make me fear them and just give it up.

  23. Optimist — on 27th July, 2011 at 12:09 pm  

    damon –

    You don’t seem to read much otherwise you would know that a countless studies have been done which have shown that in the inner cities the street robberies are carried out by people of all races and their targets are also people of all races and they do not target people because of their race – only if they have money, jewellery etc.

    While in places like Brixton, while the robbers tend to be mainly black, their victims also tend to be mainly black. Whereas in Glasgow, the robbers are usually white and also their victims are, you should have guessed, usually white.

    As you mention the Brixton riots, I can tell you that while I was not there the night they flared up, I was there the next night and I saw a lot of white youth joining in with the black youth in the rioting. I myself was really welcomed by the black youth. In fact those few days saw a real unity amongst the black, white and asian youth. It was not only in Brixton but the picture was repeated all around the country.

    Now, I don’t know where you were standing, and if that was the only time you were in Brixton or had any encounters with black people then you haven’t really lived much!

  24. damon — on 27th July, 2011 at 1:24 pm  

    Did you go down there to do a bit of rioting Optimist? ;) Throwing bricks at the police and breaking into the shops? I was standing nearby when Sanders the jewelery shop had its shutters ripped off and the rings and watches went flying as it was cleaned out in 60 seconds.
    I have never supported that kind of activity myself.
    I think it hurts the community in the long run. Some parts of Los Angeles have never recovered from the Rodney King riots, and Brixton suffered too I think.

    As for your ”reading”. Well I don’t read the Socialist Worker no. And a lot of that old ANL stuff is looking back with rose tinted glasses.
    As for your other studies about muggers and victims…
    I won’t bother arguing the issue as you’re obviously a certain kind of conviction leftie who doesn’t stray far from the party line. I think that when you have sadistic bullying of strangers …. which is often a part of street robbery I think, you can’t be so certian as to what is also going on there as the personal possessions are being taken.
    Remember what the Macpherson report says about the perception that something is racist.

    I remember this murder of a yuppie estate agent in Battersea in 2002.
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-539072-in-battersea-police-and-politicians-have-betrayed-us.do

    I’ve been in that pub and seen some of the black hoodie gang youths that plague the area, and who give you the cold stare when you catch their eye. I have had the idea that racism does comes into it.

    I was looking at the Harry’s Place website yesterday, and they posted up this youtube of UAF/SWP/Respect people in Tower Hamlets. The guy winding up the crowd at the beginning shows everything I find completely wrong about them. Galloway too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nf-CG3FEm4Q

  25. Sarah AB — on 27th July, 2011 at 1:46 pm  

    damon – yes, that does drive home for me why I got grumbled at for marching in a (partly) UAF organised march.

  26. Refresh — on 27th July, 2011 at 2:25 pm  

    Sarah AB, why did you attend? I don’t expect any HP’r to genuinely oppose the EDL.

    HP is stepping stone, or as others may describe it, a gateway to Spencer, Geller et al.

  27. Optimist — on 27th July, 2011 at 2:42 pm  

    damon -

    If a white robber robs a black person I don’t regard that as a racist crime. But during most racist murders the victim’s valuables were never touched, clearly showing that robbery was not the motive.

    I have all the sympathy with relatives of Tim Robinson as no person, black or white, deserves to be in killed in a senseless attack.

    But clue to most of the problems in that area is given in the last paragraph as :

    There are great disparities between the haves and the have-nots in Battersea. Million- pound- plus houses overlook the park and council blocks that outsiders dare not enter.

    However, as the report below shows, still vast majority of victims of racist murders are black or asian.

    The Institute of Race Relations (IRR) have revealed in a report that an average of five race murders occur in the UK every year since the race murder of Stephen Lawrence in April 1993 by a gang of racists.

    The IRR was formed as an independent charity in 1958 to carry out research on race relations throughout the world and the latest research reveals a disturbing trend of racial killings in the UK since the death of Stephen Lawrence in 1993.

    http://www.minorityperspective.co.uk/2010/04/22/five-racial-murders-per-year-says-race-institute/

    I can not comment on the youtube as I am unable to watch it at the moment.

  28. Sarah AB — on 27th July, 2011 at 3:03 pm  

    Refresh – try typing EDL into the search box in the top right hand corner of HP (I don’t just mean to find my pieces on it, but to establish the HP position on it generally).

    I’ll repost a comment I made on a current HP thread which engages with your comment too.

    “I agree that it’s quite wrong that these events should be used to close down objections to Islamism. But reading about incitement makes me wonder whether an analysis could be both correct *and* an incitement to violence? Perhaps it depends on what kind of people represent an extreme extension of the correct view. Would it be fair to say that extreme feminists (exceptions such as Valerie Solanis aside) are less likely to turn to violence than extreme communists or whatever? I think the HP view is largely correct yet at the same time I am aware that while it firmly distinguishes itself from bigotry and racism it can be seen as (superficially at least) the first stage of a process which might end in just the kind of bigotry which most readily finds expression in violence. That sounds like the kind of self-criticism HP’s critics would slaver over but it doesn’t have to be – following the same pattern I think an ultra-statist system is very bad indeed, but the exact opposite (laissez faire) is worse than the middle position.”

  29. damon — on 27th July, 2011 at 10:20 pm  

    Optimist – to go into this in any detail would be bringing this thread off topic. So as it stands, yes, there’s a white bloke attacking an Indian looking guy on the tube. But it’s more than just that, because I get the idea that he wouldn’t have been so cocky with people borm in this country, but he sees these Indian guys as easy targets as they don’t really know how to respond.
    If he had tried that with some feisty black women, he could have found himself in a really bad situation.
    Or anyone else who had the ability to respond some way. Where I come from, white on black violence is so rare that it’s almost negligible, or if it does happen, after pub closing time in the centre of Croydon for example, white racists could quickly find themselves on to a total hiding if they didn’t leave the area very quickly.

    It is very different going out of London I’m sure, and Essex boys gong home to the end of the Central Line, could indeed behave in a racist way once they got past Stratford, but inside London, the idea that the EDL have any sway is pretty tenious I think.
    Even in Stratford, if some EDL guys slapped some people like that in the street, a few texts and phone calls by their victims, and they might be running for their lives like in that 70′s film The Warriors.

    In other parts of the country I know it’s very different, like it is here in Belfast, where visible minorities can’t do anything about any local racists and just have to keep their heads down.

    Yes the EDL attract scumbags. Is that all this thread wanted to say?

    As for the disparities of wealth and prospects in places like Battersea …. it’s a really interesting subject, but off topic unfortunately. I’ll just say though, that many young people choose to fail to some degree. Or find it difficult to break out of the negative culture they find themselves in.
    One of the nastiest cases of racism I have witnessed was in Battersea Park in 1985 at a ”Save the GLC” concert, where black youths who turned up late to watch Aswad perform in the evening, started getting agressive towards the liberal white people who had been there all day listening to Billy Bragg, OMD and Ken Livingstone. There was a militant ”Black Power” mood amongst a lot of the young guys there and I think they wanted the area in front of the stage for themselves so they could jump about and chant things like: ”Too black – Too strong”. That was a Malcom X quote I later learned.
    Their identity that night seemed to be predicated on being black and seperatist and throwing back the nice vibe the liberal-lefty white people had developed that day, in their faces. I felt it, and from looking at the many people standing around me, a lot of other people felt it too. It was getting dark and suddenly things had got a bit scary and unpleasant. People were getting hit. All these years later, I’m still pretty convinced that was quite hard core racism being displayed towards the liberal white people.

    But I digress. Down with the EDL!

  30. Crying Rivers — on 28th July, 2011 at 12:55 am  

    http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/36911/james-victim-of-gang-attack

    That took about 30 seconds to find,I can find dozens of reports of racist attacks on white people by members of minorities in minutes. Any indigenous person who is unaware of the rampant hypocrisy and racism among “people of colour” has never spent much time in the company of those not of their background. Complaints of racism among whites by peoples whose families immigrated to the UK are utilized often to manipulate the sympathies and guilt complexes of softheaded liberals and lefties. Indians particularly will scream bloody murder and moan buckets if some asshole calls them “paki” but think nothing of speaking of such and such bloke as “apna”, which means something like “one of ours” or call the white folks the “ghorra”, which isn’t always a term of endearment. Or the muslim who uses “kaffir” a truly derogatory term.

    The obtuse racism inherent in equating a hostile refutation of a belief system with racism because the belief system is more commonly held by non-Europeans, another example of the hypocritical complaints so common among those promoting the contemporary exaggerations of white racism in Briton today and identity politics. Sound familiar, Sunny?

  31. Cluebot — on 28th July, 2011 at 2:47 am  

    HP is stepping stone, or as others may describe it, a gateway to Spencer, Geller et al.

    Spencer calls HP a dhimmi blog. Take it from there.

  32. Refresh — on 28th July, 2011 at 11:34 am  

    ‘Spencer calls HP a dhimmi blog.’

    Nasty!

  33. damon — on 29th July, 2011 at 2:16 pm  

    My post on Jai’s new thread on the EDL and the Norway killer was deleted – probably for being deemed as not the direction he wants the thread to go.
    I said that I wasn’t a fan of that style of anti-fascism. I find it very wooden and two dimensional. The EDL are obviously a very jucy and soft target, but that type of Searchlight/Hope not Hate campaigning has never really done that much for me. As I feel it has consistently overhyped and fetishised the far right in Britain.

    I certainly think the EDL is a problem. But that kind of analysis about them, and always trying to tie them into the most violent extremists in a tabloid headline way, becomes pedestrian and dull after a few years.
    Today’s Sun in Northern Ireland has the headline:

    Mad Dog linked to Norway Psycho

    Because Breivik was an admirer of a pal of UDA terrorist Johnny (Mad Dog) Adair.

    I said on the deleted thread that this was all a bit daft, and I suspected that half the problem that people have with the EDL, is that they are the ”wrong type” of clicktavist internet activists.
    They are violent scumbags as well of course, but what horrifies some people even more, is that they are from the ‘wrong side of the tracks’, so to speak. They are the lumpen proletariat who won’t just F off and join the army or something, but want to say very publicly what they like and don’t like.

    Now, I don’t share their likes and dislikes, as I’m a bit more of a Guardian reading liberal than them, but I would like to see if it was possible to discuss them in a way that was a bit more nuanced than the one being put foreward on PP at the moment.

    And btw. What’s the point of this thread? A racist attack on the tube. It’s not nice for the guys who get attacked, but if you wanted to go looking for assaults captured on CCTV in Britain, you could get thousands – committed by all sorts of people on all kinds of other people.

  34. Don — on 29th July, 2011 at 2:27 pm  

    They are violent scumbags of course, but what horrifies some people even more, is that they are from the ‘wrong side of the tracks’, …

    Where do you get that from? You think dislike of the EDL is derived from snobbery? A little evidence would be helpful.

  35. damon — on 29th July, 2011 at 3:10 pm  

    Don, that is just a half formed idea I have.
    It is really hard to develop such ideas though in an arena that is quite hostile to unorthodox points of view.

    In my post that was deleted, I gave the example of a Millwall fottball fan’s website where they had this thread about a south London pub which is closing down.
    http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=85756&posts=18

    I suggested that if you couldn’t stand to be in the company of people like that, it could well be because of some class or cultural divide. Like them or loath them, they were the very traditional WWC that used to be a majority in swathes of inner South London.

    I fully accept that a lot of people wouldn’t choose that kind of company. There is casual racism in there for a start, even though they are not all racist, and one of them I know for sure is a muslim of Bangladeshi origin.

    But of course, it’s perfectly understandable that people are ”snobby” about the uneducated lumpen class.
    There was even a film made about them recently called ‘Neds’.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1560970/

    And Radio 4 are currently reading sections of a book about the Scottish and inner city violent youth gangs – called ”Hood Rat” every night at 12.30am. It’s very good. The EDL are like Neds with politics.

    Also, without going on about it ad-infinitum, I’m living in a Belfast street where people still put up union jacks and Ulster flags above their front doors – where using a crude ”anti-fascist” like analysis, I could condemn them all as Loyalist sectarians and racists who supported death squads and murder.

    In my opinion though it’s pointless to be as crude as that, even if I did think (as I do) that the loyalist paramalitaries are pure scum.

    But don’t get me wrong. It will be better when the EDL just run out of steam and disappear. As it will be better when everyone is educated to a decent standard and we just don’t produce people who would fall for the EDL’s rubbish. But that’s a long way off yet, and it’s for this reason that I see them as more of a sympton of a not very developed society rather than a phenomenon in their own right.

  36. Optimist — on 29th July, 2011 at 4:36 pm  

    damon -

    I been quite busy whole day and only just had a chance look at Jai’s excellent article on the other thread. So, I am quite glad that they deleted your day’s offerings before I had a chance to get myself worked up about them.

    However, I have looking at the BBC weather forecast for Belfast for tomorrow and looks like its going to be quite a nice day. So, why don’t you try to clear your head tomorrow and go for a long walk on the Belfast short pier!

  37. Don — on 29th July, 2011 at 4:37 pm  

    that is just a half formed idea I have

    Yeah.

  38. Refresh — on 29th July, 2011 at 6:35 pm  

    ‘So, I am quite glad that they deleted your day’s offerings before I had a chance to get myself worked up about them.’

    Optimist, I can’t imagine getting worked up by someone who is a work in progress.

  39. Sarah AB — on 29th July, 2011 at 7:33 pm  

    damon – I think you have a point, or half a point, but even if snobbery comes into play, that shouldn’t excuse racism, bigotry or violence. But it is difficult. There is clearly an intersection between social class and education – and some of the EDL members I’ve read/heard seem ill-informed (and confused)rather than *purely* bigoted. This is relevant.

    http://rosiebell.typepad.com/rosiebell/2011/04/a-sure-fire-bet.html

  40. Silvered Gold — on 30th July, 2011 at 12:33 am  

    “racism, bigotry or violence” Fucking clueless, insular thoroughly deluded misrepresentation of reality from one of those softheaded, softhearted, convinced of their own superiority leftist idiots that are partially responsible for created the problems the UK around muslim immigration and presence in the country by facilitating it and shielding the ideology. What is truly amazing is individuals like Sarah are incapable of recognizing their own bigotry toward those Briton’s she seemingly considers her inferiors, whether in terms of class or education, blindly associating their hositlity to islam as strictly a matter of their inherent vulgar racism and bigotry. Their refusal to allow this religious ideology, a growing beachhead in their country is unquestionably a product of the proles’ reactionary nature.

    Those, like Sarah AB, swallow the cozy and comforting platitudes offered by externally westernized, and schooled enough to fake it, muslims with whom they mo superficially associate. All the while remaining as ignorant as possible of islam’s history and voluminous library of supremacist literature, both spiritual and temporal. Unable through their own unacknowledged sense of Western superiority, inverted as it is, to appreciate or recognize that another group of people may be convinced of their own mission, and the elevated status of their own values, belief system and civilization. Sarah AB and her crew are unable to ask themselves questions like why do so many muslims need to immigrate to Europe; when so many are secure in the superiority of their values and beliefs? Or why did for decades did moderate muslims remain silent at the supremacist goings on in their mosques, why so quiet for those long decades about the islamist literature available and promoted by mosques and their attendant bookstores?

    How fragile and damaged the psyche of someone like Sarah AB that she must believe and see the worst in working class Britons, but must extend every grace and benefit of the doubt to the subscribers of a foreign belief system, possessing orthodoxies that if held by strictly an European people she would most likely unequivocally denounce and find repulsive. They, Sarah AB and her ilk, are today’s fools of the kind that called Churchill’s warnings against Germany and the nazis the rantings of a bigot and warmonger.

  41. damon — on 30th July, 2011 at 2:11 am  

    damon – I think you have a point, or half a point, but even if snobbery comes into play, that shouldn’t excuse racism, bigotry or violence.

    Thanks for that Sarah – and you are of course right – there is no excuse for those things at all.

    I was wondering whether I was making any valid point at all, and that maybe I had everything wrong and it was Optimist, Jamal, Douglas and Joe90 who were the ones with the wisdom and keen foresight that I was just missing by a mile. :)

    I’ve just heard George Galloway banging on about Norway and the EDL on his friday night radio programme for a couple of hours, and his view is almost identical to the one that I have been trying to say is way too wooden and lacks subtlety. He also exaggerates his case to make his points even more forceful. At one point he mentioned former radio host and Sun columnist Jon Gaunt as a part of the anti muslim campaign which must take some of the blame for Norway.
    Which, as much as I don’t like Gaunt, is completely outrageous of Galloway. Gaunt is not a part of the anti-immigrant Eurabia thing at all. But it shows how vindictive some people can be if you say something they don’t like.

    But it is interesting to see how different mindsets work. Galloway is incapable of seeing anything too different to his own world view, and I think the guy here who told me to take a walk off the end of the pier tomorrow is pretty similar.

    I’ve read all of that latest thread by Jai this evening, and all the links, and there is really very little in it. We know that Lennon is a convicted football hooligan and ex-BNP member. And is probably a liar too. So who really cares enough to go republishing the tweets of some coke snorting thug who runs ”the Jewish division” of the EDL or whatever?
    We know what they are already.

    That’s my point. And one that will be deleted if I say it in the wrong PP thread it seems. As it doesn’t fit with the line being pushed.
    Who cares about these lying losers behind the EDL? They are not Nazi stormtroopers who are going to cause havoc by marching through some town. They’re not even close to Oswald Mosley’s fascists. They’re football hooligans who don’t like the way that some neighbourhoods have developed. Where they are likely to get beaten up if they show their faces there. George Galloway just said about them marching in Tower Hamlets on his show:

    ”If they dare, the entire borough of Tower Hamlets will be there waiting for them.”

    And you know how these people are. To those from London, Tower Hamlets was a borough that was full of East End Cockneys. And other immigrants of course, like the Jews and Huguenots and various others, but still the manor of the traditional working class, the Kray Twins and Jack the Hat McVitie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_McVitie

    Yes, I’m sure that despite their protestations otherwise, it’s not just the occasional visiting extremist preacher at the ELM that bothers them, but the fact that the Whitechapel ward of Tower Hamlets has been taken over by a different cultural group than their own. And that the two aren’t really comfortable bedfellows. Of course racism comes into it.

    And btw Sarah. Interesting link. I didn’t really want to bring you know who into it, but they are right more times than they are wrong for me, and I didn’t agree with much of what Rosie Bell said. On either thread.

  42. Sarah AB — on 30th July, 2011 at 8:07 am  

    Thanks damon – I think you are spot on when you say that “it’s not just the occasional visiting extremist preacher at the ELM that bothers them, but the fact that the Whitechapel ward of Tower Hamlets has been taken over by a different cultural group than their own.”

    @silvered gold – I write for a blog which is strongly opposed to Islamist extremism. I have no problem with exposing hate preachers or extremist literature. But I don’t hold all Muslims responsible for such things. I know a Muslim teacher in a school with an overwhelming Muslim majority who has been getting the children to write peace themed postcards to children in Israel (and the West Bank). She has had no opposition to this project from children or parents. Cases like this, as well as reading the lies from the EDL and their supporters about a place I’ve lived over ten years, are an important reminder of the dangers of anti-muslim bigotry. If you are really worried about specific problems (eg connected with the ELM) then the last thing you should do is exaggerate and scaremonger – that just makes others overcompensate and refuse to listen to or believe stories about genuine problems (which probably affect Muslims more than anyone in fact).

    I think what would be really bigoted would be to hold people of a different social class to completely different (lower) standards of behaviour.

  43. johng — on 30th July, 2011 at 8:52 am  

    “They are violent scumbags as well of course, but what horrifies some people even more, is that they are from the ‘wrong side of the tracks’, so to speak.”

    How can you possibly say this after watching that video? It is really, really hard to know what to make about posts like this..self delusion?

    The other problem is that a lot of things which seem laughable, as well as disgusting, on-line (I used to have an asian girl friend, her in-laws didn’t like me, so now i have no sympathy for people being beaten up in race attacks) probably reflect a kind of derangement which would be far from laughable if you bumped into this bigot at the wrong time.

  44. Trofim — on 30th July, 2011 at 10:22 am  

    Kismet Hardy @ 3:

    “and Luton now pretty much belongs to Asians”

    And is it OK if white people say “and geographical entity X (city, town, county, country, village etc) belongs to white people”?

  45. johng — on 30th July, 2011 at 10:36 am  

    No. He didn’t say that did he?

    “the terrible attack in Norway shows why we are right to send our boys to fight jihadists…(sorry, what was that…)…we are shocked at the way in which cynical leftists are exploiting this tragedy to close down discussion of immigration and the ‘problem’ of multi-culturalism, right lets get into it now…”

  46. johng — on 30th July, 2011 at 10:54 am  

    The other very strange new argument is that ‘the left’ are hypocrites because they talk about ‘root causes’ when it comes to ‘muslim terrorism’ but not when it comes to the latest atrocity in Norway. This is of course nonsense. As always the left stresses the root cause of Breitvik’s actions: racism.

  47. Jai — on 30th July, 2011 at 12:40 pm  

    Johng,

    It is really, really hard to know what to make about posts like this..self delusion?

    Not at all. Like everything else he’s written on this website during the past few years, from start to finish, it’s a textbook example of what’s known as “concern trolling”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#Concern_troll . He’ll vehemently deny it, of course.

    Although the writing was already on the wall, he destroyed the remaining shreds of his credibility regarding his real motivations when he predictably started posting comments desperately defending one of the EDL’s main founders after the latter turned out to be a registered sex offender with a criminal record for repeatedly downloading child pornography (see: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/11988).

  48. damon — on 30th July, 2011 at 12:57 pm  

    How can you possibly say this after watching that video? It is really, really hard to know what to make about posts like this..self delusion?

    Did you see the picture of the guy?
    ”Cobz Smith” – he looks like he’s about twelve years old. (OK, maybe 20). Is he in the EDL or something? He looks the type. And then what? There are thousands of postings by wannabe bad boys and ”gangstas” posted up on youtube and facebook.

    The guy is a total piece of crap and this is a case for the police or for some vigilante to give him a kicking. I couldn’t care either way really. In a political way I mean. Of course it’s an ugly horrible crime. I was almost in a similar situation once on a bus in Denver Colorado when some black boys behind me started talking about how they were going to put my head through the window and that I was a white mutherf@%ker etc. I got off and feared for a momenet they might get off too. But they didn’t. These things happen. A guy on Harry’s Place told yesterday of growing up Asian in Essex and him and his friends getting attacked because of it all the time.

    My point is, I looked at the links in the OP to Manchester Anti-fascist Alliance, and it looks like they go trawling facebook and twitter looking for racists online. FFS. What’s the point?
    I don’t do facebook and twitter btw, so maybe I’m not understanding why anyone would be that bothered with them.

    Where I come from, the local crew who go in for random attacks and violence are these guys. DSN they call themselves (Don’t Say Nothing ).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcvtk0cR1wA

    A couple of years ago they ”banned” all their rivals from coming in to Croydon town centre at all.

    Another local posse, the ”Shine My Nine” boys from Thornton Heath were not too impressed and did show up a couple of times, and street fights running right through the hight street were filmed on CCTV and shown in the local paper.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjql5Qjd47I

    But most of the time I don’t even think about all this stuff. They’re just uneducated delinquent kids.
    Though it pays to be wary if they get on your bus.

  49. damon — on 30th July, 2011 at 5:52 pm  

    Not at all. Like everything else he’s written on this website during the past few years, from start to finish, it’s a textbook example of what’s known as “concern trolling”:

    I think Jai sees things this way because he’s from too tightly a defined political outlook, which won’t take in points of view that sit ouside a narrow orbit.
    It’s vey common, on the right and the left. And I just saw a perfect example of it in Belfast this afternoon.
    I was at Gay Pride in the city centre, and it was fun and nice and the sun was shining. Then afterwards I walked half a mile south towards were I live and there was quite a major Loyalist band parade going on down around the Sandy Row area. At least a dozen bands marching about, and their supporters lining the road drinking alcohol from cans and bottles.
    One minute it’s dancing queens on the top of buses grooving to the techo beat, and then minutes later it’s ‘Blood and Thunder’ loyalist bands banging out ”No Surrender” tunes.
    One size doesn’t fit all. Even though I feel much more comfortable with the mood of the gay parade, a simple ”anti-Nazi” analysis to dismiss the Loyalist people and their culture would be way too crude IMO.
    The ”obvious” thing to do would be to dismiss the Loyalists as lumpen scum – like many liberals and Nationalists do.
    And look where that gets you. A divided society.

    My point here is that things are often more subtle and complex than I think people like Jai would like to paint them.
    You have to listen to a bit of George Galloway on his show last night. Talking about Norway and the EDL.
    http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/listen-again/episode/43640
    At 5.15 he says that he is under police protection as a leading EDL member has been arrested for making death threats against him.

    But more interesting is his conversation with Mark Wadsworth from 19.30.
    Wadsworth and Galloway together reminded me very much of Jai on this kind of subject.

    My point has been, to see if it’s possible to tease out some other aspects of subjects like this on such a forum as PP.
    It really seems that it is not possible, as apart from a couple of people who are open to considering a wider picture, it really seems like what you could call ”official anti-fascism” is the only way most people are prepared to view this.
    Like with PP’s higest rating thread ever … ”The BNP and the killer questions” by Jai – which I thought was just dull and dreary.

    It’s a simple thing to say, that I thought that thread was dull and dreary … but to explain why is quite difficult on a blog like this, and many people just won’t listen anyway. I’ve been called a BNP or EDL supporter a dozen times on PP now. Earwicga said that on about her third day after turning up here as a moderator. What happened to her btw? Is she missed by regular readers?

    I think this is what Jai must be calling my ”concern trolling”. How can you have a legitimate opinion on this subject outside his, George Galloway’s and Mark Wadsworth’s?
    And how can you ask why a nasty racist attack on the tube is worth posting without hardly any comment?
    Although … you just have to type ”racist attack” into YouTube to come up with loads, done by people of all types.
    I think what Jai is saying is that he doesn’t like to be contradicted with a different point of view.
    It can’t be genuine. It can ONLY be concern trolling. It’s a ”you’re either with us or against us” ultimatum, and I would have thought the last thing that a political blog should present.

    But to discuss ”official anti-racism/anti-fascism” would take a whole thread in itself. I’m pretty sure the guys at Spiked-online have talked about it several times though.

  50. Don — on 30th July, 2011 at 8:47 pm  

    The ”obvious” thing to do would be to dismiss the Loyalists as lumpen scum – like many liberals and Nationalists do.
    And look where that gets you. A divided society.

    I’m going to let that logic unwind itself.

    Damon, other than yourself, who is regularly using terms such as ‘lumpen’ and ‘scum’ etc. to describe anyone? It is only you who, when seeking to exemplify the WWC, can’t seem to get beyond Milwall supporters, Loyalist marching bands, the Kray twins and teddy boys. Is that really your entire understanding of working class culture? The way you talk about it I can only conclude that you despise it far more than the rest us put together.

    the guys at Spiked-online

    OK, Damon. Now you have forced me to use the term ‘fan-boy’.

  51. damon — on 30th July, 2011 at 11:14 pm  

    OK, Damon. Now you have forced me to use the term ‘fan-boy’.

    I’ve said a lot Don, and you’ve said quite little, so I’ll try to shut it a bit as there’s not much point over-extending myself if there’s nothing coming back.
    I don’t know if you’ve ever read one article in Spiked as I don’t think you’ve said, but you mention that you are aware I’ve made many references.

    But here’s just one which I think is quite frank and to the point – about the weakness of what I have called ”official anti-fascism”.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/7611/

    It’s about when Nick Griffin went on Question Time.
    I think there is no appetite at all on PP for even giving what it says five minutes of thought .. as we see from what Jai said earlier, even though the article is exactly about the things that PP got very animated about in October 2009 when Griffin was about to appear on the programme.

    So OK, I shouldn’t bang on about that kind of idea. It clearly finds no audience here. I can’t help thinking it’s really good though.

    It was a cultural lynching of Griffin by members of a political elite bereft of ideas and lost for words. It was a cynical performance by politicians and BBC bigwigs, designed to demonstrate their inherent goodness and sense of mission against the easy target of a bumbling buffoon with backward ideas. It was a calculated act of moral distancing, an attempt to conjure up two moral universes – Us and Him – at a time when British political life has little else going for it. And it involved, not open, adult debate, but its opposite: the suppression of discussion, analysis and nuance, all buried beneath the theatrical display of the new Non-Nick consensus.

    I think that’s exactly what Jai’s done on that other thread btw, and he’s made it clear that I’m not even worth engaging with because I hold such a view … which is obviously really ”concern trolling” on my part.

    But the thing that really interests me most about all this, is this very juncture. Where two ideas are so incompatable that the proponents of each can only just tell each other to get lost. It’s an oil and water situation. The same with Optimist, who has told me to go and jump off the pier. Have a read back through his posts on this thread. It’s pure Socialist Worker/Respect/UAF. And you know what happens if you criticise them. They tell you to bog off … or worse.

    As for using words like ”lumpen” and scum … isn’t that running out of every pore of this discussion of the EDL and the Norway killer? Galloway was oozing it last night, talking about the knuckle draggers etc.

    You certainly hear that view a lot on this Northern Ireland website I read. It draws people from all views and persuasions, and most of the time, people are very much for their own community.
    http://www.politics.ie/forum/northern-ireland/160074-new-east-belfast-murals-uvf-machine-guns-38.html

    If I could draw your attention to posts 378 and 379 on that page.

    On that site there is little consensus. Loyalists are Loyalists, and Republicans are what they are, and they just score points off each other and call each other names. I am called a Loyalist and an ”Orange lover” by some Nationalists on it.
    Because I have been to many parades and won’t take the Republican line that they’re all bigots.
    It’s complicated. A bit like here with this EDL stuff.

    But some people insist it’s not complicated at all, as it’s just about Nazi’s and fascists – who obviously need confronting by all decent people.

  52. Sarah AB — on 31st July, 2011 at 8:15 am  

    damon – I moderately like Spiked, or its better writers at least, though it is a bit weird. I don’t massively object to the para you quote about Griffin, as one angle on the situation, but he, his party and his views are thoroughly objectionable.

    Looking quickly at the article again – I read it at the time – I think Brendan O has a fair point about Chris Huhne maybe, and of course politicians are going to be relieved to have a scapegoat they can attack to resounding cheers – but that doesn’t make the scapegoat any better.

    I note he says little about Warsi – probaably because she performed best on that panel. Yes, some people will have had a self righteous glow through opposing him, but that’s true of people supporting all causes and charities.

  53. johng — on 31st July, 2011 at 9:27 am  

    This “EDL stuff” in not at all “complicated” and exposing their connection to vicious criminal racist attacks is not “a waste of time”. And Jai thanks very much for the heads up. All is now explained, as is the bizarre belief that objection to vicious, criminal racist incitement is only explicable on the basis of middle class snobbery.

    I’ve found these posts very useful so I thought I’d share a blog by a Norweigen liberal which folk here might find similarly useful. Its a detailed account of the far right’s reaction to these events on-line. For those who persistantly can’t seem to spot the new breed of Islamophobic fascist it might be of some use:

    http://oyvindstrommen.be/2011/07/27/journalist-resource-examples-of-extreme-right-reactions-to-terrorism-in-norway/

    Its worth checking through for his english language blogs. There is an earlier one on the killer, and a useful one on the (positive) response of Norweigen politics to these events. In particular a story about the Prime Minister attending a Mosque and thanking the congregation for not branding him a terrorist. Odd that these sentiments do not get reported.

  54. johng — on 31st July, 2011 at 10:14 am  

    It might be worth adding that working class people on the whole do not like football hooligans, violent racists etc, and that there is nothing middle class about regarding such people as knuckle draggers.

  55. damon — on 31st July, 2011 at 2:02 pm  

    I moderately like Spiked, or its better writers at least, though it is a bit weird.

    I’m exactly the same Sarah. I agree with what you say there pretty much. But I was talking about the way PP was really big on the BNP, and that the most high rating threads has been Jai’s ones about ”The BNP and the Killer Questions”. Which got very excited at the prospect of the BNP becoming the government, and asked some ”killer questions” about what their policies whould be.

    link here

    When reading them I wondered what Killer Qustions you could put to the Socialist Workers Party. ”Will you impose a dictatorship of the proletariat when you take power?” could be a starting killer question perhaps.

    I might have outed myself as a bit of a Spiked ‘fan-boy’ – but just have a quick look at this.

    From Macpherson to the rise of the BNP: Race Today?

    http://www.battleofideas.org.uk/index.php/2009/session_detail/2554/

    That’s a debate that they had at their big event in 2009. I think that shows that they are at least interested in trying to have a useful debate about these issues, and that they take a different view to Jai or anyone else is no reason for people to fall out over anything. Although I think that some people on the more traditional left will be quicker to start throwing insults at those who disagree with them.

    Here is Kenan Malik – who also is definitely from that Spiked tradition, being pretty blunt on what he thinks of ”official anti-fascism” and ”Killer Questions”.

    The real racists do not wear swastikas: ‘Stop the BNP’ campaigns ignore greater dangers in everyday British life, argues Kenan Malik

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-real-racists-do-not-wear-swastikas-stop-the-bnp-campaigns-ignore-greater-dangers-in-everyday-british-life-argues-kenan-malik-1433561.html

    And finally, the link that Jai did to the thread where: ”he destroyed the remaining shreds of his credibility regarding his real motivations…” is here. http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/11988

    There was a problem with the link Jai gave I think.
    The points I made were reasonable ones I thought. At least as points of debate. If someone makes a better argument I will always conceed if I get it wrong.

    My point was, the EDL guy got arrested for breaking police lines during an EDL rally, and I questioned why the police then went straight for his computor at home. Is this normal and accepted practice?
    It’s a civil liberties point I was making. I asked whether searching people’s computers should be seen as just something that’s routine if you get arrested for something. Being at an EDL march or a UAF counter protest for example. That’s point one.

    Point two, is the EDL guy got found to have some ”Level 1” images on his computer. Do people know what Level 1 consists of? There are five levels of seriousness, from one to five, and Level one being the least severe. It includes images of children (anyone under 18 – or deemed by a magistrate or jury to be under 18) which are ”depicting erotic posing with no sexual activity”.

    Did you know that? That could include pictures of naturism, or having images of children modeling clothes for catalogs. Remember what happened to the newsreader Julia Summerville who took some photos of her daughter in the bath? She and her husband were arrested and questioned about their ”motives” for taking the snaps.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/julia-somerville-defends-innocent-family-photos-1538516.html

    The films ‘Blue Lagoon’ and ‘Taxi Driver’ are said to show underage eroticism …. and my point was meerly to question, do you always go on what the police and courts decide on this? The law is different from country to country, so do we automatically have to ageree with the law in England and Wales. Where (I think) the Japanese comics showing drawn images of underage sex, are to be deemed as highly illegal?
    Because drawn or traced and computer generated images, where no human was involved in exploitation in the making of them, are also illegal. Which is ridiculous in my opinion. To have even looked at them online.

    So someone gets into a fight at an EDL rally, and you then go looking to see if he has any Level 1 indecent images on his computor?
    It could be a good way to arrest and damage anyone the state didn’t like. There’s bound to be something you could find. Btw, I also don’t really know what the definition of ownership of these images is. If you opened an e mail that had some porn in it (legal or otherwise) does that mean you ”own it” – even if you deleted it or just looked at it once?
    And it’s also an offence to write sexual fantasy stories about anyone – real or imagined – under 18. (I think). So we’re almost getting into thought crimes.

    But according to Jai, by saying all this I was putting myself ”beyond the pale”. I can’t see why really.

  56. damon — on 2nd August, 2011 at 11:01 am  

    Wow. I just got deleted on Jai’s thread about ”EDL financier’s murderous “Final Solution” for Muslims and political opponents” … for saying that the EDL probably didn’t take much financing. Apart from some computers, I couldn’t think what else they would really need. Personally I think that’s quite bizarre to have such a comment deleted.
    Unless it could be seen as questioning the whole rather dramatic (tabloid) headline and tone of the thread. About this dark mysterious ”financier” who was ranting on like Hitler.
    I read on his website that he says he bought them come computers. And that could just be the truth of it.
    But it doesn’t sound as jucy as calling him ”The financier”. Like some character out of The Godfather or something. I never said all this on the deleted thread, just a couple of lines saying that they’d only really need a couple of computers. And most people just have their own anyway.

    Can I just show a link to where I got a couple of ideas about the rights and wrongs in the debate about indecent images being found on computers?
    As Jai brought it up in post #47 and suggested that what I said was so terrible. Whereas I thought it was a debating point, given the tabloid way the thread was set up originally.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DC06.htm

    It’s looking like Jai will just not allow any unfavourable comment about his rather strange EDL and BNP fixation.

  57. Sarah AB — on 2nd August, 2011 at 11:35 am  

    damon – I saw your comment and can’t think why it was deleted. Having said that, it is my understanding that this man did finance them, and has generally exerted his influence to generate publicity for them, and that his views are completely awful. I am sure there are many ways in which the EDL could use funding – paying salaries so people can spend more time on it, transport, legal costs … I’m not saying he has paid for these, just that one can think of many ways in which the EDL could use funds.

  58. Optimist — on 2nd August, 2011 at 1:31 pm  

    damon -

    You are not very good at taking hints, are you ?

    Maybe Jai deleted your comment because it was just a ‘Trojan Horse’ for much more of your daily apoligies for ‘all things EDL’!

  59. Phomesy — on 2nd August, 2011 at 1:36 pm  

    That’s horrific. Just despicable.

  60. KB Player — on 2nd August, 2011 at 1:49 pm  

    I can’t see why damon’s comment was deleted. The EDL has appeared as an amateur, ad hoc bunch of football supporter types going out for dust ups, who find each other on social networks. I’ve seen on a thread over at Socialist Unity some doubts about the influence of Lake – this from people who organise against the EDL. Even Robinson’s creepy threatening on Newsnight may be opportunistic boasting without anything to back it up in the way of lads ready to blow things up. The EDL may be mutating into something like the BNP or Moseley’s British Union of Fascists – better organised, more heirarchical – but I don’t know if that has happened as yet. Sarah’s comments about having full-time paid activists would suggest something like that. That is a much more sinister and frightening prospect than the ramshackle movement that the EDL appears to be these days.

    After the Breivik massacre I wonder if some EDL members will realise that they are getting mixed up in really evil nasty stuff – not just a bit of thuggery – and chuck it. Other old BNP types might see a bit of glamour in someone who actually took out a gun and “did something”.

  61. Refresh — on 2nd August, 2011 at 2:06 pm  

    Jai,

    Keep Damon off the ”EDL financier’s murderous “Final Solution” for Muslims and political opponents” thread, its too important.

    Let others indulge him and his obfuscations.

  62. Cluebot — on 2nd August, 2011 at 2:11 pm  

    damon – I saw your comment and can’t think why it was deleted.

    You’ll just have to try thinking a wee bit harder.

  63. Sunny — on 2nd August, 2011 at 6:02 pm  

    damon you made an assertion about EDL funding.

    Did you have any proof for it or was it just idle speculation?

  64. Don — on 2nd August, 2011 at 7:33 pm  

    If you delete Damon for his, admittedly sometimes obfuscatory, posts then you’re setting the bar rather low. You don’t have to respond to his melancholy meditations on the passing of a culture which gave us the Kray twins, teddy boys and Milwall supporters. Are we now deleting for repetition and deviation?

    Some of us may find him annoying, but he is not a troll and has always been courteous and responded to questions. He should not be casually deleted.

    And Damon, if you find OP’s about the EDL and the BNP and other far right extremists to be irrelevant, addressing unimportant or non-existent issues, or just generally a waste of time, why do you make a point of commenting on every one of them? Again and again. And usually just telling Jai that he has wasted his time researching and writing the post, because it is far too trivial to bother with.

    Actually, why not submit an OP of your own setting out your position?

  65. damon — on 2nd August, 2011 at 8:08 pm  

    Well first, thanks Sarah. For responding soon after I posted, as I half expected for that to be deleted too.
    You’ve had your issues with a mod here, and it looks like I have some too.

    As for what you said Sarah, of course this guy could give the EDL some money … but I would say that it would be wiser not to – too much. The last thing they would want to do is to rent some commercial premises for offices and fit them out with computers and phone lines, as this would then become a target for both the police and anti-facist campaigners.
    The same with paying salaries. Do you really need some guys sitting around all day getting paid for it? What are they going to do all day?
    Transport – maybe. For flights abroad, or to bring people from overseas to EDL rallies. But again, you have to be careful with handing money out, as you will surely have people snooping for secret bank accounts and envelopes of cash. People could get ensnared in legal proceedings over VAT and tax fraud.

    Optimist, I’ll lay my cards on the table. I’m an ”anti-fascist sceptic” – or something like that. I have a lot of questions I would put to anti-fascists of the UAF – AFA – ANL variety, and I think Jai is a part of that tradition too, but I have the experience that that tradition is not really open to being questioned about the very foundations of their political outlook. You to seem to be very much from an SWP/Antifa orientation. Which is fine.
    http://antifa.net/

    But I don’t accept that it has to be one-size-fits-all, where you (like you have done) accuse anyone with a different outlook as being sympathetic to fascists etc. You don’t ‘own’ opposition to racism and fascism. I’m pretty solidly against those things myself.

    KB Player. You know what would be most sinister? If the EDL actually moderated itself and got rid of it’s most thuggish elements. Became disciplined … like The Nation of Islam activists perhaps. If Lake or anyone was to spend money on giving the EDL a makeover and it became more moderate, then that would make it harder to deal with actually. And perhaps longer lasting and less vunerable to attacks. Whether they could do that though is highly doubtful.

    Refresh: ”whatever” :)

    And Sunny. No, this is all completely idle speculation on my part. Lake did say on his own website (that Jai mentioned) that he’d bought them some computers.
    And I thought that’s all they’d really need. Keeping it simple.

    What interests me most of all though, is the top-down politics of ”official” anti-fascism. Where people are invited to join in with it, but not to ask too many ‘stupid’ questions. It’s not so different to the politics of the Stop the War movement in that regard. There’s lots of politics, but not really for the general public’s ears.

  66. Jai — on 2nd August, 2011 at 8:37 pm  

    anti-fascists of the UAF – AFA – ANL variety, and I think Jai is a part of that tradition too,

    Not even remotely, either literally or metaphorically.

    Don,

    He should not be casually deleted.

    There’s nothing casual about it. See the first paragraph of #47, a point he is continuing to prove.

  67. Sarah AB — on 2nd August, 2011 at 9:21 pm  

    I’ve made the point before – but I think although damon sometimes *resembles* a concern troll he is in fact more of a contrarian.

    damon – I don’t care for UAF/SWP/StW either – but I don’t think that is a good reason for altering one’s view of the EDL.

    Someone on another thread made a useful distinction between ‘offensive’ and ‘defensive’ demonstrations. I was ok about demonstrating with, or alongside, UAF in a defensive context (against EDL march) but wouldn’t join in, I am sure, on something they initiated. Anyway – why not try HnH who occasionally talk about Islamist extremism and are generally more moderate – reactive rather than having their own strong agenda.

  68. Refresh — on 2nd August, 2011 at 9:36 pm  

    Don,

    ‘Actually, why not submit an OP of your own setting out your position?’

    I fear you are being serious.

    As regards casual deletions, I do think it is worth safeguarding some threads from casual meanderings of Damon.

    So whilst he is deleted on that other thread, he is not here. Which I believe is being quite reasonable. To him.

    For me, trying to unravel his comments induces headaches. And to a degree I am glad about that. Just imagine if he could hold on to the thought he started with right through to the end.

    Perhaps not.

    We’d probably end up with a complete handbook on how Alan Lake could go about spending his money. And still lay claim to the comity of man.

  69. Don — on 2nd August, 2011 at 9:49 pm  

    I’m always serious, at bottom.

  70. douglas clark — on 3rd August, 2011 at 12:49 am  

    I find damon intensely irritating. He knows that, I know he knows that. But I am not at all happy about the abuse of editorial power that seems to have become a modus operandi for some folk with editorial rights around here.

    It used to be that it was a community decision before someone was banned from posting. We have had some folk that were far worse than damon that it took ages to get rid of. Indeed, because it suited us we welcomed the Legal Director of the BNP to spew out his brains here.

    I was fairly well shocked when an editorialism appeared when earwicga started to contribute and censor with equal aplomb. Whatever happened to her?

    Anyway, I found that contrary to what I expected this web site to be.

    I do not think that folk like Jai, Rumbold or Sunny have much to worry about with people like damon. What they would have to worry about is the idea that censorship of his ideas are worth their while.

    It is not. Indeed, it is a bit ridiculous. All three of these people have substantial followings – people that read this site because we like them and we like what thy have to say.

    For myself:

    I have read Sunny Hundal since day one (and a half, maybe) and I still read him. I have huge respect for him in the sense that there was no credible left wing presence in the UK on the internet until he turned up. I think, when the history of internet politics, UK version, is written, the he may well be remembered far past his contemporaries, the odious Guido, you know the rest. We are lucky that someone who writes largely elsewhere these days uses us as a testing bed for ideas and sometimes still cares enough about the people that comment here to write here.

    Och, this is getting boring.

    Whatever anyone else has to say about Jai – he’s got balls – and he took on the BNP and won here, toe to toe.

    As far as I am concerned he has continued to show that bravery and he does not duck the most dangerous issues. The man deserves to be respected by everyone that supports the aims and objectives of this site.

    And then there is my friend Rumbold who, despite being completely wrong on almost everything politically appears to be able to get me to sign up for every arguement he cares to make. Now that is a unique gift.

    I have no idea why damon is anymore than a midge compared to folk like that.

    There are plenty of folk that write / comment here that can take damon to bits. Damon should be allowed, within the parameters that he currently occupies, to comment.

    I have always thought that I had the right to tell damon he was being an arsehole – and for him to reciprocate – and for you dear reader, to decide.

    I reject the idea that Pickled Politics should go down a route of political puritanism.

    I would prefer to hear a wide range of voices here, partly because that was how it started out. And partly because there always was a crunching of gears around here, where different ideas confronted each other and, well, crunched.

    Older readers will recall that some people – on each side of an arguement – learnt mutual respect.

    That does not occur through deleting posts that do not agree

    Just saying.

  71. dawud ali — on 3rd August, 2011 at 1:03 am  

    Re: Damon’s posts – a village somewhere is clearly missing an idiot …….

  72. damon — on 3rd August, 2011 at 1:24 am  

    Don, cheers for those first words. Sort of.
    So you didn’t get the thing about the Kray twins, teddy boys and Milwall supporters? I wonder if anybody else did. It’s hardly rocket science I’d have thought.
    Anti-fascists spend loads of time looking into the BNP and the EDL and seem to want to know every last thing about them. So my link to the Millwall fans was offering a sort of window into the way of thinking that those people come from. A psychological profile if you like.
    http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=85756&posts=15

    Spying basicly. Not just on any old group of Millwall fans, but Rod Liddle’s pals that I first heard about from Sunny’s exposure of Liddle last year.
    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/01/17/did-rod-liddle-also-post-these-racist-comments/

    Since then, I have kept an eye on their site, and even was a member of it for a while untill they banned me.
    Some are racist, and some are not. A couple are active anti-racists and one of them is even a muslim of Bangladeshi origin. So in that way, they are an interesting online community. The EDL supporters among them are tolerated for who they are, even when others speak out against the EDL. Liddle is a liberal, moderating influence on this group I have found.

    Did you not ‘get’ this Don? What I was doing? Maybe it’s not suitable for Pickled Politics with the kind of people we have here, but I was trying to draw out a profile of possible EDL supporters.

    I was trying to compare ordinary people who might have EDL sympathies, with the way ‘regular anti-fascists’ set out the parameters for the debate.
    They like to paint it as a straight forward struggle against the ”fascists and Nazis”.
    So you’ll have people at a UAF rally talking to the crowd about 1936 and the battle of Cable Street and such things.

    If you really couldn’t even get that one point Don, no wonder you didn’t get much else.
    Do you think I should just not bother raising such points? – Particularly as poor old Douglas doesn’t get them either and thinks I’m having a go at eveyone.

    Jai says he’s not of the UAF – AFA – ANL tradition. ”Not even remotely, either literally or metaphorically.” To which an decent question might be ”Why not?”
    I can’t remember much discussion on the different types of anti-fascism on PP. Although I’m aware of Sunny’s opposition to the banning of marches and stuff, which is not what some of the main groups say.

    Refresh, I’d kind of forgotten who you are, and I had to google to get a reminder of some things you’ve actually said. I remember now. June 2010. :)

    As for the thread about Lake financing the EDL. Well it’s free from my contamination now, but no one’s said anything on it. Same with the other one the day before about Anders Breivik and the EDL. Just loads of tweets.

    Sarah AB, I don’t think ”contrarian” can be said to be anything but unflattering. ;)

  73. douglas clark — on 3rd August, 2011 at 1:25 am  

    dawud ali, @ 71

    Perhaps.

    But even an idiot has the right to their free speech, A right that you, yourself, appear to exercise here.

    So what are you saying dawud ali?

    It seems to me that the whole idea of ‘free speech’ is a tad fragile around here. OGH, Sunny can pull up the drawbridge any time he likes. You and I can be banned from commenting here whenever he wants. And so too with damon.

    This is an interestingly regal approach to debate.

    Perhaps you would be happier submitting a job application to the court of Elizabeth I?

  74. douglas clark — on 3rd August, 2011 at 1:53 am  

    damon @ 72,

    You are really as thick as two short planks.

    Thanks.

    I had always assumed that anyone writing here appreciated that, sine qua non, wouldn’t be a complete dolt.

    I now realise that, in your case, that was an expectation too far.

    As my insomnia is working overtime here are a few comments for you to consider:

    i) You say:

    Particularly as poor old Douglas doesn’t get them either and thinks I’m having a go at eveyone.

    Dearest damon, lets be clear about this. I do not have an issue with anyone describing the far right. It is when their analysis appears to be becoming close to a version of the Stockholm syndrome that I have an issue.

    It is perfectly clear, for example, that when thick white and particularily fat thugs like those that Jai has identified on here are dissected, then their only apologist is you.

    Repeat, their only apologist is you.

    Why is that damon?

    Is that just your inner controversialist coming out or summat?

    I am white, I am celtic, you and I actually have a lot in common. How come I agree with Jai about these folk and not you?

    It is not down to trying to understand them damon, I understand them all too well….

    Take the fucking blinkers off. These are not nice people.

    And before you make the point, neither are the arseholes on the other side. For they are just as bad.

    The area, which the folk around here attempt to occupy is the middle ground.

    You have seen this numerous times and deliberately ignore it:

    TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    I have stuck that under your nose numerous times. You always completely ignore it. Perhaps because it is inconvenient to your polemic or perhaps, you are really as thick as two short planks….

  75. Sarah AB — on 3rd August, 2011 at 8:59 am  

    damon – I didn’t mean ‘contrarian’ to be insulting! I sort of take your points in that some EDL types seem a) somewhat confused and b) to have some sincere and non-hateful concerns. At the risk of getting myself into trouble I’ll even point out that they share *on the surface* some of the same concerns as me.

    Someone kindly suggested I turned a recent comment of mind on HP into a post (haven’t got round to it) which means the comment was to hand in an email. It’s relevant here.

    “it’s not enough to look at the ostensible – or indeed the real – factors behind *individual* antimuslim bigots/antisemites. I think some people attached to the EDL may really think they want to protect liberties, women’s rights, etc, just as some people think their intense hostility towards Israel (and probably only Israel) is caused by sympathy for the Palestinians. At the level of the individual this may be true, but there are other vectors at work (including the historical patterns of racism and antisemitism other have noted) making it more likely that these particular anxieties will take hold. Obviously I’m not saying that all those who are sympathetic to the Palestinians or concerned about
    Islamism are bigots”

  76. damon — on 3rd August, 2011 at 3:53 pm  

    Cheers again Sarah. You show it doesn’t have to be so hard to have a discussion about somethings which are reasonably straightforward, but still can cause others to choke on them. Being critical of the mainstream anti-fascism for example. Which is really dominated by a quite small tradition influenced by the likes of the SWP from the 1970s. Douglas is a good example of why it’s probably a waste of time even trying to talk about this kind of thing on Pickled Politics. He thinks any analysis of the far right that doesn’t take the ”offical anti-fascist line” must be showing some kind of ”Stockholm syndrome” or something. That is just showing lumpenheadedness IMO.

    My point has been that the EDL and even the BNP are actually far less interesting than the anti-fascists would have us believe. Even though they have to be detered some way or other and they are certainly bad news all round. But the thing is, they are just ordinary people who meet in networks of football fan groups, pubs and now of course the internet.
    Everyone has a computer these days. That’s really how sinister the EDL are really. They all own computers. And when they meet up, they tell each other to look at the EDL website, or Gates of Vienna …. or Harry’s Place even – and then they’re away.

    If they’ve ever had some violent run-ins with some local muslim lads, in a place like Luton – like Stephen Lennon says is the case, then they get organised a bit, and something like the EDL is the result.

    So yes, fear them and worry about them to a certain extent. Particularly when it’s seen that they are encouraging violence against people like in Plymouth last week. But keep it in a sense of proportion too.
    It’s easy to get involved in some moral panic about the EDL, the way people do about all kinds of youth movements, and things like gang and knife crime.

  77. Optimist — on 3rd August, 2011 at 4:25 pm  

    damon -

    zzzzzzzzzzzzz thanks you have cured my insomnia!

  78. Don — on 3rd August, 2011 at 5:27 pm  

    No, Damon, I don’t get it. I have read, I think, all of your posts and I don’t get it. I read some of them twice because I didn’t get and I still don’t get it.

    What, you have been researching the soul of the WWC? You have insights to offer? “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
    Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”
    ?

    That sort of thing?

    No, still don’t get it. But since I can generally ‘get’ most texts that I read, just possibly it isn’t me.

  79. douglas clark — on 3rd August, 2011 at 6:54 pm  

    damon @ 76,

    Perhaps you are sufferring from the Dunning–Kruger effect?

    Which, when allied to the Stockholm syndrome, makes you kind of like someone in need of help?

    Just saying.

    You say:

    But the thing is, they are just ordinary people who meet in networks of football fan groups, pubs and now of course the internet.
    Everyone has a computer these days. That’s really how sinister the EDL are really.

    _____________________________

    How does that work exactly?

    I would run a mile if I met anyone like that.

    I might run to an asian village where by negotiating knowledge of steel I might find sanctuary. Once the villagers – asians with ninja skills (+ 1.5 – v – 1.0 for standard folk) supported me we could get + 1.5 armour bonus and fight back.

    After that we’d have a hamburger.

    Is that how stupid your life is?

  80. Sarah AB — on 3rd August, 2011 at 8:21 pm  

    damon – I think it’s not enough to say the EDL aren’t *that* threatening, in a sense. This parallels someone recently on HP parodying the comments and claiming that people were saying there was going to be another Holocaust in Europe or something. You can have concerns about antimsemitism without thinking that.

    In one sense the EDL are ‘just ordinary people’ – but in another sense,en masse, they cause distress and fear in local communities. I felt a bit nervous even though I’m not really in their sights, as it were, because they were hoping to march just round the corner from me. Imagine if you were a local Muslim shopkeeper (or maybe just someone like the Pakistani woman who runs a local shop and wears a headscarf but happens to be Christian)- you’d *probably* be ok – but maybe you might happen to be the target of that day’s act of mindless violence.

  81. damon — on 3rd August, 2011 at 10:58 pm  

    Yes Sarah, the EDL are a threat. Please don’t think I am in any way diminishing that. I have seen the Youtube of them in Leicester attacking Big John’s resturant because some racists spotted Asian people eating inside. What I have been talking about isn’t particularly about the EDL itself as an organisation or movement. They are what they are and we can see them pretty plainly in the videos.
    For me it’s more about ”us”. Those that oppose them.
    Should we just fall in with Optimist there, who finds that anything away from the UAF line just sends him to sleep?
    Of course not. You know better than that yourself, as you have described about your going to the anti-EDL demo in Cambridge and not feeling really a part of the UAF side of it. The have been eejits for quite some time now.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpXfR5uPRbI

    Calling for physical confrontation towards the EDL can work in places, but it is also pretty irresponsible too, as people can get hurt over it. Beat up a few EDL in the city centre, and they may well take their revenge on some innocent people they come across on their way home. And I’m not really sure if the thing to do is for Stephen Lennon and his mates to fight it out with the Luton Muslim tough lads to see who comes out top, because you know that could end badly.
    Living in Belfast these days, that is really the case here. When trouble breakes out across the peace lines like it did a few weeks back, there are no winners, only losers. But the EDL are still a problem.

    The EDL is being blown out of all proportion. Labour MP Sadiq Khan has even accused David Cameron of ‘writing propaganda for the EDL’ with his recent speech on the failure of multiculturalism. The hysterical response to the EDL shows it has become an all-purpose tool for liberals, fascist-hunters and politicians, who want to carve out a sense of identity and purpose and re-enforce their smug sense of moral superiority over others.

    I think there is some truth in that. (From guess where)

  82. persephone — on 3rd August, 2011 at 11:11 pm  

    I have no appetite for a sweeping editorial pen – but there have been moments when I would have welcomed it eg the first time I clicked on a link to HP for one & regretted it.

    As for the EDL being ‘just ordinary people’ – they are suffering from such a severe lack of self esteem that their outlet is a psychotic racism. Lets not normalise them. Its too reminiscent of Hitlers use of the Big Idea/Lie and positioning of Nazis way of life as being wholesome.

  83. damon — on 4th August, 2011 at 1:06 am  

    What, you have been researching the soul of the WWC? You have insights to offer? “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
    Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”?

    That sort of thing?

    I tried to describe the sub-class the EDL come from.
    Call them working class and someone will complain. Try ”lumpen working class”, and that’s still not good enough.
    Post a link to a website where some of the people are actual EDL supporters – the Millwall website – and people still won’t want get it. So what section of society do much of the EDL come from then? ”The fascist community?” That seems all that’s left the way the likes of UAF would have it.

    They are from a section of the working class that resists the advance of the diversity agenda and politics. To use the term ‘PC’ seems a bit hackneyed, but basicly they still aren’t PC enough. For example, they will talk of the balck post code youth gangs in terms which you wouldn’t see in the Guardian. ”Bloods” is the word they use I think. Or some do. And they ask each other what’s with the ”Blood” way of speaking… as they still retain a Bermondsey type accent, even if they’ve lived in kent for thirty years. They say that they don’t want their kids growing up speaking like that.

    Many will accept people of any race (they say), but only if the people share their culture enough. They can mix with black and Asian people … and Stephen Lennon said as much to Paxman on Newsnight when asked if he even knew any muslims ,.. ”For fucks sake, I’m from Luton .. of course I know some muslims” he almost replied. There’s probably Luton Town Muslim football fans he knows of. There are certainly some tough Turkish origin Millwall fans who are accepted and respected. What Lennon and his original Luton EDL probably have a problem with is, is the islamists who protested against the soldiers, and also the more mainstream Salifis down in Bury Park who seem somewhat aloof. I remember there was a thread on this Guardian video on PP some months back.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/help/insideguardian/2011/jan/17/filming-british-muslims-fight-extremism

    The EDL are the section of the working class who can’t really get their heads around them guys, and have read up on all the stories about the Luton Islamic Centre that have been in the media and the internet.

    That’s why I thought it was worthwhile trying to place that part of society they come from. Not to make excuses for their ignorant prejudices, but to accept that they are a traditional mainstream of the white working class who don’t like the way things have been changing.
    They made up the ranks of the British armies since the Napoleonic wars. They read tabloid newspapers. And now they’ve got computers.

    But the anti-fascists like to play up their ”otherness”. As if they weren’t realy British at all, but ”Nazis”. I just think there might be a more sophisticated way of dealing with them.

    Even this Hope not Hate photo shows them like aliens who need to be corralled behind riot police.
    http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/tower-hamlets/

    It has echos of the kinds of pictures the the newspapers used to have during the miners strike. Always taken from behind the police lines.

  84. Optimist — on 4th August, 2011 at 9:37 am  

    more daily damon drone

  85. damon — on 4th August, 2011 at 11:34 am  

    more daily damon drone

    Well at least I’ve tried to say something and present things in a different way than you do, just quoting the line from your SWP/UAF handbook.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqeDsskcSVQ&feature=related

    I moved to Belfast over a year ago because I had been interested in the place for so many years, I wanted to finally get to know it properly and see more than you can on short visits.

    No doubt Optimist, you’d reduce this to something as simple and crude as to whatever your party line is.
    And say that any attempt at some ametuer ananysis on my part would just be terribly boring.
    Maybe it would be, but the situation here is so complex and subtle that it almost defies description.

    Just walking the mile and a half home from the city centre yesterday, I first taversed the lower Shankill road, walking though the ultra-loyalist Lower Shankill estate.
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lower+shankill&aq=f

    Then passed through the security gate, onto the catholic Falls Road, where I saw nationalists had painted this new mural on ”their” side of it.
    This one.
    http://shankillwelcomesyou.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Frederick-Douglass-Mural.jpg

    There is so much politics in that mural, if I tried to explain it to you Optimist, you’d fall straight to sleep. You can zoom in on the mural and see the detail.
    Angela Davis is there, as is Aung San Suu Kyi.

    But it’s what it’s saying about Republican politics that is the most interesting for me. It’s a bit of one-upmanship I think, because most Loyalists on the other side wouldn’t know who half those people were.

    Then I walked on down through the Falls and over the motorway, and up through another Loyalist area called ‘The Village’. Where they had a bonfire on the night before the 12th of July, that was so big that the fire brigade were called out as people’s houses were feeling the heat from it. It damaged the railway footbridge that I use, and now the paint and floor covering is all burnt off on one side. Then you get to my road which which is a mix of people. Longtime protestant residents, students and immigrants.

    It’s not really safe for the immigrants to live in ‘The Village’ proper on the other side of the railway line, as the loyalists there are very tribal and don’t take kindly to outsiders moving in. I wouldn’t even live there, and it’t just two hundred yards from where I am now.

    I came here to try to get a deeper understanding of all this. It’s so nuanced, that if you try to describe it to people who don’t know half of what you’re talking about, and don’t care, you can come across as a loon. I know. But it’s got to be better to try, than leave the dreary SWP control the issues – when they’ve been coming out with the same old tired crap for 30 years.

    But I know. This isn’t really the place for trying out weird ideas. Best beep it simple so that Douglas and Jamal can follow it.

  86. Optimistic — on 4th August, 2011 at 11:35 pm  

    damon -

    Thank you for the link to the beutiful mural that I had not seen before. But its 11:33pm and am too tired to comment on rest of your post, bust apart from the first paragraph, not a bad try.

  87. damon — on 6th August, 2011 at 1:17 pm  

    Optimistic. You are nothing to do with that person who calls themself ”Optimist” then I take it? :)

    A lot of what I said above was very ameturish I know.
    It’s not so easy to describe difficult issues on forums such as these. Have a look at the final two minutes of this Youtube on West Ham football hooligans in the mid 1980s.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzUkt4fE_gg&feature=related

    From 7 minutes 20 seconds. You could write whole threads on just those two minutes of film taken in East Ham. It shows a fleeting moment of time that I think that is gone for good.
    The multi-ethnic groups of football fans. Older white people mixing with everyone else in Queens Market.
    Quite a deprived looking area, and very cosmopolitan.
    Green Street has changed quite a bit since then.

  88. damon — on 8th August, 2011 at 11:41 pm  

    Optimist @84

    more daily damon drone

    I can’t wait to hear his tales of the ”Uprisings”.
    I blame the EDL.

  89. Don — on 9th August, 2011 at 2:25 am  

    Damon. would it be unjust of me to detect an element of satisfaction in that last comment?

  90. damon — on 9th August, 2011 at 10:28 am  

    Don – only in as much as people like Optimist and Jody McIntyre are so obviously ridicilous in their analysis of these things.
    http://hurryupharry.org/2011/08/08/first-riot-casualty/

    Darcus Howe has finally lost the plot too. In the same tradition of those two. He just said on the radio that this was actually a ”classical insurrection like those others of the 20th century, from 1981 in England, to the 1960s riots in the USA.” That it was about civil rights.

    I certainly don’t feel any satisfaction that the Croydon hoodie gangs trashed my old neighbourhood of London Road Croydon last night, and have decimated all the Asian run businesses along there. Absolutely no respect that the muslim guys who run those shops and resturants will have been breaking their ramadam fasts just at the time where they came down and wrecked the place. I know one Iranian man and his wife who run an internet cafe and money transfer business next to West Croydon railway station and I would bet that was targeted. But according to that fool Howe, it was just part of the legitimate insurrection.

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2010. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
With the help of PHP and Wordpress.