They’re out to get you…


by Sunny
24th August, 2007 at 4:07 pm    

So that paragon of newspaper journalism, the Daily Express, recently ran a story claiming that officials at the Lothian and Glasgow health boards had issued instructions that staff should not eat their lunch in offices during the month of Ramadan for fear of offending their Muslim colleagues. The story also claimed that instructions had been issued that vending machines selling food should be removed and that the lunch trolley “be wheeled out of bounds” during the same period.

Except that wasn’t the case and the health board released a statement denying this.

That wasn’t the end of the matter of course. Writing on the Social Affairs Unit blog, some twit called Theodore Dalrymple clearly finds a conspiracy and thinks the health board is just itching to form alliances with Muslim extremists. Quite. I suggested in the comments that he has far too much time on his hands in trying to find a conspiracy where there is none. They’ve not now published my comment.

After all, the Daily Express never publishes racist or outright rubbish in its stories of course. When supposedly serious “think-tanks” or writers start following a paranoid trail started by the Daily Express, you know they’re intellectually bankrupt. This is the cutting edge of thinking on the right in this country.


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  1. Rumbold — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:10 pm  

    What a complete joke.

    In fairness Sunny there are those of us on the right who regard the Daily Express and its anti-immigrant ilk with just as much contempt as you do.

  2. Bleh — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:14 pm  

    The Daily Express is the ‘cutting edge of thinking on the right in this country? Since when?

  3. Sunny — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:16 pm  

    I meant that writers and think-tanks who chase up the Daily Express are seen by many at the cutting edge of right-wing thinking because it shares their paranoid anti-Muslim agenda.

  4. Sofia — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:18 pm  

    ok so now i’m just about to log off and go home to do some work..and you post this…
    for a start someone should tell Theodore (??!!??), that Muslims who fast do so out of choice and as such are supposed to carry on life as normal, that means…if he decides to read this blog, that colleagues can munch their way through as much crap as they want as long as they’re not doing it to irritate me. And if most muslims were that sensitive they’d bloody well have their entire annual leave during Ramadan so as not to come across food (oh no can’t have that can we), at work…Theo..sorry to say it, but yer a damn fool man.

  5. Bleh — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:19 pm  

    Which writers? Which think tanks?

    The Daily Express is regarded as a Richard Desmond joke (with a fanatical obsession with that bloody woman).

  6. Sunny — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:23 pm  

    Which writers? Which think tanks?

    Theodore Dalrymple and the Social Affairs Unit.

    Sofia – heh, sorry…

  7. Bleh — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:26 pm  

    Theodore Dalrymple is the “cutting edge” of the right? Are you reducing the entire right of this country down to one man?

  8. Sofia — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    “If they are too weak to attend such meetings, they should not be at work at all, and should take the month of Ramadan as their annual leave; if they are religiously offended, they are clearly in the wrong jobs and possibly in the wrong country” courtesy of Theo…yeh damn rite they might be in the wrong country…they took a wrong turning somewhere, obviously these poor hungry muslims were hallucinating and then ended up in scotland…i’m sure The Daily Mail will come out with some story soon about Christmas being banned…blah blah

  9. Sunny — on 24th August, 2007 at 5:45 pm  

    At the cutting edge does not necessarily mean he represents all of the right in Britain.

    But going by a google search, he is published in numerous places.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Dalrymple

  10. Soso — on 24th August, 2007 at 6:18 pm  

    I think it highly unlikely that NHS Lothian has ever considered sending information to its managers concerning the need for gentiles not to eat pork or pork products in front of Jews, or beef in front of Hindus (or any meat at all if they should happen to be complete vegetarians).

    That’s the money quote.

    Why should the NHS be taking advice from consultancy groups about how to be sensitive to Muslims?

    And another point; if you’re too weak to attend a lunchen meeting, then how on earth can you properly perform on the job?

    I wouldn’t want someone doing open heart surgery on me if they are *too week* to even sit through a meeting.

    What, for instance, will happen when Ramadan falls in June? This IS Scotland, you know, and in June in the north of the country the sun rises at 3:30 AM and sets at 11PM.

    If one intends to go 20 hours without eating, then one is not only useless on the job, but also donwright DANGEROUS, and it is work performance that is the higher value here.

    C’mon Sunny, this is the health-care field for heaven’s sakes!

    France, a country in which Dr Dalrymple has worked and knows a lot about, dealt with this issue a few years back. The purists were just told to stay home for the whole month, and were given the option of doing so sans solde, or as a month’s vacation.

    I think the french solution was the right one because it removes Islam from the public space and places it in the privates sphere where no one has to look at it or be inconvenienced by its diktats.

    That way, too, Muslims don’t run any risk of being offended by some hapless, but famished employee, who unwraps his ham sandwich and eats it right in front of them exposing them, thus, to *ham-breath*.

    They’ve had no trouble since, anyhow.

  11. Sunny — on 24th August, 2007 at 6:21 pm  

    Why should the NHS be taking advice from consultancy groups about how to be sensitive to Muslims?

    Where does it say it is? Clearly though, I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing if they make sure they have the basics covered and from there they make their own decisions on how policies are run.

    You’re implying that an organisation trying to find out about the habits of employees is a bad thing full stop.

    That way, too, Muslims don’t run any risk of being offended by some hapless, but famished employee, who unwraps his ham sandwich and eats it right in front of them exposing them, thus, to *ham-breath*.

    You let us know when that happens.

  12. septicisle — on 24th August, 2007 at 6:43 pm  

    This story was naturally picked up on that home of rationality, Little Green Soccerballs: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26653_Scottish_Sharia_Watch&only

  13. Osama Saeed — on 24th August, 2007 at 8:15 pm  

    Not to defend the Express, but they actually printed the trash after the Edinburgh Evening News and the Times
    http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=1275192007
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2258664.ece

  14. Bleh — on 24th August, 2007 at 9:19 pm  

    Yet the email *was* sent, Osama. At the very *least*, we have a case of some professional busybodies trying to whip up nonsense within the NHS

  15. Laban Tall — on 25th August, 2007 at 12:20 am  

    Sunny – Theodore Dalrymple is not merely “some twit”. If twit he be, he’s the king of twits. He’s one of the best writers on politics and culture that there is. And having done his time in City Road Hospital and Winson Green Prison he’s seen a lot more of the pooey side of life than thee or me.

    There’s a link to all his City Journal stuff here

    http://www.city-journal.org/author_index.php?author=47

  16. nodn — on 25th August, 2007 at 1:44 am  

    Being Muslim, I think I can safely say that those of us who expect this sort of rubbish to happen in their workplaces, schools, colleges or unis can just get lost back to Saudi Arabia!

    Why on Earth would we expect anyone not to eat in front of Muslims in Ramzan? We’re not in a Muslim country! As long as no one offers me pork, anyone can eat anything they like in front of me, Ramzan or not! After all, do Muslims not come to this Christian country and eat chocolate in front of Christians who have given it up for Lent? I am embarrassed to admit that I am one of them!

  17. Don — on 25th August, 2007 at 2:27 am  

    And not only that. Birmingham has banned christmas, your friendly High Street branch can’t give piggie banks to the kids and there hasn’t been a nativity play in five years.

    This is such a non-story. In a sense, Dalrymple is right to focus on the over-eager management types trying to show their sensitivity by pre-empting a problem that had not arisen. But the headline impact is ‘Look what they’re demanding now…’. Was anybody?

  18. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 25th August, 2007 at 2:37 am  

    nodn,

    Why Saudi Arabia?

  19. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 25th August, 2007 at 2:38 am  

    nodn,

    The implication being that they are from Saudi and they should go back to Saudi. How many Saudis are there in the UK? Very few I am sure. My guess is that you dont like Saudis or Wahhabis and you think they are the cause of all these problems. Sure they are.

  20. nodn — on 25th August, 2007 at 3:55 am  

    Guys Saudi Arabia was only an example that I gave, being the strictest Muslim country I have ever heard of. What I meant was go back to whichever Muslim country is stupid enough to expect such rubbish to happen. Even in Pakistan, I am sure such rules only exist on the street! Anyone who isn’t Pakistani, Muslim or not, can eat in restaurants or in any building in Ramzan if they feel like it!

  21. j0nz — on 25th August, 2007 at 5:10 pm  

    They did however suggest “changing the route of food trolleys to be sensitive to colleagues who adhere to the Muslim faith”

    So, like they say, everything has a grain of truth in it. What is it with these busy bodies? They make life worse for everyone! The media pick up on silly things and then exaggerate or just make bits up.

    The reason the story went to far was because it was entirely believable. There really are woolly minded idiots out there who do things like this. Yet in their dumb-arsed, yet presumably good intentioned behaviour, does more harm than good.

    Reminds me of the ‘winterval’ period. We get it every year, and this year will be no exception…

  22. j0nz — on 25th August, 2007 at 5:22 pm  

    When supposedly serious “think-tanks” or writers start following a paranoid trail started by the Daily Express, you know they’re intellectually bankrupt. This is the cutting edge of thinking on the right in this country.

    Reminds me of the vanguard of leftwing intellectualism Robert Fisk and his libellous and unfounded claims that the Israelis used uranium weapons on Lebanon. Those pesky Israelis. The new antisemitism on the left, far-right and islamic circles. Now there’s completely unfounded paranoia! What evidence, at all, is there that Jews are darkly in control of the world?

    I don’t think a “paranoia” about creeping Muslim demands is completely unfounded, after self declared Muslims blew up 52 innocents, then more self declared muslims trying to follow in their footsteps, after British muslims have gone on to the streets of london saying behead those who insult islam, after islamic nhs workers try to detonate a nightclub in london, after they pathetically tried to blow up glasgow airport, after the numerous thwarted attacked including the “dancing slags” trial, I don’t think that the paranoia on the right is quite as illogical as the paranoia of many on the left.

    The Daily Mail and The Express may be bad, but the Independent is just as bad. Like someone said before, The Independent is like the Daily Mail for those who recycle.

  23. Sunny — on 25th August, 2007 at 5:54 pm  

    What evidence, at all, is there that Jews are darkly in control of the world?

    I don’t think a “paranoia” about creeping Muslim demands is completely unfounded,

    See j0nz, all you’re doing is replacing one racist paranoia with another. People also used examples to excuse their paranoia of Jews back in the days. Just think about that.

    So, like they say, everything has a grain of truth in it.

    Reminds me of the people who think the United States carried out 9/11.

  24. lone star — on 25th August, 2007 at 6:31 pm  

    sunny,
    how do you see it as “racist” paronia?
    No matter what anyone ever says someone else will always offer another example to counteract the statement.
    I thought the comment from jonz was balanced and thought out …. nothing “paronoid” or “racist” about acknowleding extremists exist as a threat in todays world, to everyone including muslims. I’m not sure the jews back in the day were ever acting as described above were they …. wanting to behead all non jews, or destroy civillization?
    ……..
    and just so this doesnt turn into a debate over Israel, I don’t think they are compeletly innocent …. which goes back to the grain of truth in everything.
    and as for 9/11 …. carried out and dismissed warning arent really the same.
    The media looks more and more like a soap opera everyday ….. drama and sex sell

  25. j0nz — on 25th August, 2007 at 6:48 pm  

    I was just pointing out that paranoia and racism is prevalent on the left, too. After your quip about right wing though “when serious “think-tanks” or writers start following a paranoid trail”.

    When so called “serious” intellectuals on the left consistently display signs of new anti-Semitism. That was all. I can think of several people who declare themselves as left wing who really are quite openly anti-semitic.

    Paranoia and anti-western bigotry are consistent themes on the left.

    All this talk of civil war, and now this carnage. Coincidence?

    Robert Fisk: Even I question the ‘truth’ about 9/11″

    We are all Hizbollah now

    ‘Lenin’ supports Hamas

    Antiglobalism’s Jewish Problem

    Just telling the flip side of the coin, is all.

  26. Sunny — on 25th August, 2007 at 7:03 pm  

    j0nz, you’re pointing the finger at the SWP crew, and their infatuation with so-called “anti-imperial” movements, and tarring everyone with the same brush. Who takes the SWP seriously on the mainstream left?

    This “twit” Dalrymple and Social Affairs Unit on the other hand are hardly marginal figures.

    anti-western bigotry

    erm, what’s anti-western bigotry? And if that exists, then surely there must be something called “anti-eastern bigotry”? Could you define the latter for me please?

    (Btw, that Robert Fisk article may have been mis-informed, but he’s not actually questioning that Al-Qaeda carried out that attack. I’m reading his book now and it’s obvious he knows how odious and hate-filled those people are.)

    lonestar: how do you see it as “racist” paronia?

    When someone extrapolates from the actions of a few crazed nutters and tars a whole community of people of that background with that same brush, and keeps playing up paranoid sentiment that “they are out to take over us”, I see that as paranoid bigotry. It was the same in the case with Catholics and Jews in the past, nothing different.

    And you think there weren’t any Jewish terrorists? Want to go over your history again?

  27. Ravi Naik — on 25th August, 2007 at 7:03 pm  

    “I don’t think a “paranoia” about creeping Muslim demands is completely unfounded, after self declared Muslims blew up 52 innocents, then more self declared muslims trying to follow in their footsteps, after British muslims have gone on to the streets of london saying behead those who insult islam”

    It is a paranoia. C18 and BNP thugs have done criminal acts in the past, but no one talks about creepy “White British demands”, they don’t speak in the name of all whites, now do they?

  28. j0nz — on 25th August, 2007 at 7:14 pm  

    No but spotting racism everywhere is a form of paranoia isn’t it? To many, everything to the right of Menzes Campbell is inherently racist.

    And what is this conflation with BNP speaking as all whites? And why the conflation of religion and race?

    Did I make any generalisations about Muslims at all, or did I just state facts?

    Please factually state your argument as I believe I have done.

    Same old boring shit you from you wankers. I remember Leon trying to prentend the recent terrorist attempts could be BNP when we all know they have carried out an act of terror on this soil. (Yes I know some far-right have tried – and been thwarted by the “white community”)

  29. lone star — on 25th August, 2007 at 7:31 pm  

    I love history!!
    I love learning, but what I dont do is use things from it as a way to keep blamming, or holding it over them like a life sentence of guilt. I live today…. and try to be more focused on tomorrow cause thats the only thing anyone of us can play part in. No intellegent person should need to be convinced anymore the diffrence between “mulsims” and “extremists”
    Im sorry I havent read this blog in a while …. and I dont have much time today. But can I ask …. do you ever discuss the issue of the “radical Islamics”? and what can be done about it …. or do you focus on how racist everyone else is when they worry … or get confussed
    and Im not attacking anyone with that question, I liked the responses here on the topic.

  30. Ravi Naik — on 25th August, 2007 at 7:37 pm  

    “And what is this conflation with BNP speaking as all whites? And why the conflation of religion and race? Did I make any generalisations about Muslims at all, or did I just state facts?”

    Yes, you made a generalisation when you mentioned “creeping Muslim demands”. What the fuck are “Muslim demands”? You yourself are conflating religion with a radical terrorist ideology, which is ironically what islamists do themselves.

    The danger from islamists is very real, but people like you are too coward or conveniently stupid to measure the threat. Our civilisation, country and monarchy will survive from stupid fucks who blow up themselves or who can’t blow up themselves, and other stupid fucks who put up banners that say “behead all those against islam”.

  31. septicisle — on 25th August, 2007 at 8:17 pm  

    The same old bullshit that’s always brought up by members of the “decent left”. Anti-Zionism and criticism of Israeli government policy becomes antisemitism, “We are all Hizbullah now” is a sign of support for a radical Islamic militia instead of being a response to the mass Israeli bombing of Lebanon which slaughtered over 1000 civilians, which the Israeli government was defending on the grounds that “Hizbullah fighters” were hiding amongst civilians even as it destroyed bridges, roads, power stations, an airport, the odd ambulance and stopped civilians from fleeing, as well as comments that anyone who failed to get out of a section of southern Lebanon within 48 hours was a legitimate target as they were obviously members of Hizbullah, not to mention the mass-dropping of cluster bombs which have killed numerous children since the end of the war. They were no doubt Hizbullah too, weren’t they?

    This article was the typical misinformed scaremongering designed to invoke the “they’re taking over!” response, which the usual suspects lapped up. That you defend it j0nz by claiming there’s even a grain of truth in it reminds me of the furore earlier in the year when the likes of Michelle Malkin, LGF and others claimed that a guy who went berserk with a gun in a Utah mall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulejman_Talovi%C4%87) was somehow related to terrorism simply because he had been brought up in Bosnia and happened to have been a Muslim, unlike all the other spree-shooters who have tended to be white and pissed off, except for Cho, who was Korean and pissed off. I’m not denying there are some politically correct idiots who make decisions that are simply daft, but it’s also part of the willingness to believe that there’s some sort of conspiracy behind all of this that leads to such nonsense being reported in the first place.

  32. Redbirn — on 25th August, 2007 at 8:52 pm  

    It’s not like they need to make anything up about Muslim extremism, there’s enough problems with Islamic nutters without making up shit.

  33. lithcol — on 25th August, 2007 at 10:14 pm  

    Theodore Dalrymple is not a twit however his accuser maybe.

    There is nothing in Dalrymple’s article remotely suggesting “the health board is just itching to form alliances with Muslim extremists”.

  34. Bleh — on 26th August, 2007 at 1:56 am  

    Oh, look Septicisle is defending Hezbollah. What next, defending Hamas?

    It didn’t take long for the festering anti-Semitism that’s inherent in the left today to be exposed.

  35. Sunny — on 26th August, 2007 at 2:09 am  

    j0nz: No but spotting racism everywhere is a form of paranoia isn’t it?

    Yeah could be… like people who find any criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, or people who conjure up things like “anti-western bigotry”. Heh! I’m still waiting for your definition of that one j0nz, along with another one of “anti-eastern bigotry” just so we can compare.

    Did I make any generalisations about Muslims at all, or did I just state facts?

    What “facts” are you stating other than your paranoid assumption that most of them are out to take over Britain? That isn’t a fact, that is decades old conspiracy theory.

    lonestar: do you ever discuss the issue of the “radical Islamics”?

    If you mean radical Islamists, yes we do – all the time. Just click ‘Muslim’ in our archives link at the right and you’ll see a whole history of condeming extremist Muslim groups and individuals.

    What we don’t do, unlike j0nx and his mates, is see conspiracy everywhere nor tar all of them with the same brush.

    Bleh: It didn’t take long for the festering anti-Semitism that’s inherent in the left today to be exposed.

    No he isn’t. Some like Lenin may have been carrying Hamas/Hizballah flags on their blogs but septicisle wasn’t. But he did point out that Israel killed over a 1000 civilians just during that war, and dropped cluster bombs.
    Tell me again, who did you support during that war?

  36. septicisle — on 26th August, 2007 at 4:40 am  

    I have never defended the actions of Hizbullah. Perhaps you’d like to read my blog entry on the “We all are Hizbullah” protest: http://www.septicisle.info/2006/08/uh-yeah-there-was-sort-of.html

    Please don’t accuse me of doing something I have never done.

  37. lone star — on 26th August, 2007 at 5:22 am  

    I still dont see what youve gone off at jonz about? its quite rude the comments to him, is that how you all have converstions here, by shouting down and insulting others. If anything his original comment was attacking the press for how they love to make a big story out of anything…
    and then some thoughts on how everyone either getting offened by everything or being overly sensitve to offending anyone – causes some really stupid actions and reactions.
    …but I actually read what he wrote.
    “his kind”?
    you know him then, personally, to make that assumtion do you.

  38. Halima — on 26th August, 2007 at 5:45 am  

    Muslims have been fasting in this country for donkies of years and managed to do their jobs.

    Public bodies taking advice on making the workplace more diversity friendly is not new – it’s not about accomodating Muslims alone. For example the workplace changes to accomodate family friendly policies so that women and men can manage around their families. I think people still complain about taking on 30 yr women as there is a fear lurking that companies might have to pay maternity rights. That wouldn’t be preudice on the part of employers but fears abour creeping costs. But we might argue that for a progressive society we have conceded to the importance of maternity /paternity issues. It’s a slightly different analogy but it takes the heat away from Muslims when we want to understand why public bodies might consult on making the workplace reflective of the employees that work in it.

    Think-tanks, though, are not bankrupt for peddling tablod ideas, it’s more a sign that they are dependent on funding to keep their researchers employed with a job – but I totally agree that it undermines their independent thinking if funding dictates their research agenda.

  39. septicisle — on 26th August, 2007 at 3:41 pm  

    lone star: I’m not sure how “Same old boring shit you from you wankers” isn’t rude, which is what I was responding to.

  40. lithcol — on 26th August, 2007 at 8:10 pm  

    At the risk of being admonished by the individual who is responsible for defraying the costs of this site, and one who has observed his sometimes petulant attitude to those who disagree with him, I challenge Sunny to defend his opinion that Theodore Dalrymple is a twit.

    His reading of the article by Theodore Dalrymple is deficient and leads this humble individual to question his mind set and motives.

  41. Sunny — on 26th August, 2007 at 8:57 pm  

    I challenge Sunny to defend his opinion that Theodore Dalrymple is a twit.

    Erm, I pointed out why he was in the article above. Its obvious to most on this thread, even people like j0nz who acknowledge the whole thing was blown out of proportion. If Dalrymple wants to waste his time chasing up Daily Express bigotry, that’s his choice. Makes him a twit though.

  42. lithcol — on 27th August, 2007 at 1:39 am  

    Dalrymple is a retired NHS prison psychiatrist who has probably seen more than any of us of the dysfunctional nature of some of human kind, and of course some of the inane individuals running the NHS.

    His response to the Daily Express article was if anything enlightening. You impute that he was wasting his time, why then did you feel the need to report it?

  43. john b — on 27th August, 2007 at 1:26 pm  

    Lithcol – Dalrymple does have interesting things to say in his columns about the dysfunctional end of British society.

    But this article was not one of them – it was taking a news story on a subject that isn’t his area of expertise and that is entirely false, and then basing a paranoid conspiracy theory on it. Which is definitely the act of a twit.

  44. Sunny — on 27th August, 2007 at 4:43 pm  

    Dalrymple is a retired NHS prison psychiatrist who has probably seen more than any of us of the dysfunctional nature of some of human kind

    Yeah? And I probably know far more British Muslims than Dalrymple. Clearly that makes me an expert in their affairs and anything I say on the matter should be taken as gospel.

    His former profession has nothing to do with the fact that he’s desperately trying to split hairs over the wording of a press release that clearly denies what the Daily Express published.

    I’m reporting it to highlight the stupidity of these so-called experts, the think-tanks that give them space and the general culture of paranoia it contributes to.

    Don’t you know j0nz cries every night thinking of the Muslim bogeymen who are trying to destroy his way of life? Think of the children!!!!!!

  45. Don — on 27th August, 2007 at 5:06 pm  

    Dalrymple, and I’m familiar with his journalistic work some of which is worth reading, spends a lot of time sneering at management-speak in this article. Fair enough, nothing wrong with that.

    But claiming that phrases like:

    ‘Nor is there any question that NHS Lothian will be moving vending machines.’

    are ambivilent and represent some sort of support of or surrender to extremism is fairly twittish.

    He follows a prolonged complaint:

    ‘If they are too weak to attend such meetings, they should not be at work at all, and should take the month of Ramadan as their annual leave; if they are religiously offended, they are clearly in the wrong jobs and possibly in the wrong country. In neither case would NHS Lothian have any duty to them. And, of course, the same goes for the allegedly offensive lunch trolleys: if people are too weak to bear their passage, they should not be at work, and if the trolleys are offensive in their sight, that is just too bad.’

    with a single-sentence acknowledgement that he has never actually met a moslem who feels that way. Dalrymple is not a fool, but he took a tabloid non-story and tried to make of it a broadsheet story. Struck me as lazy journalism; you don’t have to be a fool to wander into the realms of twit.

  46. lithcol — on 27th August, 2007 at 11:25 pm  

    Twit is a little old fashioned. Twonk would have been a better word to use.
    I know lots of human beings and cats. I am not an expert on either and anything I say about their behaviour and motivations should be regarded as twitish or twonkish.
    Sunny you are twonkish in regarding Dalrymple as twitish.

  47. lithcol — on 27th August, 2007 at 11:26 pm  

    Forgot to add that jONZ is a twonk.

  48. lithcol — on 27th August, 2007 at 11:47 pm  

    But don’t take my word for it. I am no expert although Sunny is.

  49. Bleh — on 28th August, 2007 at 9:43 am  

    But he did point out that Israel killed over a 1000 civilians just during that war, and dropped cluster bombs.

    Wrong, Hundreds of those “civilian deaths”, probably the majority, in fact, were actually Hezbollah.

    …and Lebanon has just killed 400-odd civilians in refugee camps the last two months, without a single squeak of protest from the usual suspects, you included.

    And Sunny, I supported Israel, and emphatically, and continue to do so. I come from a tradition that lauds the killing of fascists like Hezbollah, not lauding them and making excuses for them. Let’s face facts here – the only good Hesbie is a dead Hesbie. And if you feel otherwise, you’re making excuses for them.

  50. Golam Murtaza — on 28th August, 2007 at 6:00 pm  

    Bleh,
    Look forward to seeing your conclusive proof that the majority of those Lebanese killed were, in fact, Hezbollah.

    Also look forward to seeing your conclusive proof that the Lebanese army has, in fact, killed 400 civilians in Nahr el Barad and Ayn El-Hilweh.

    Take your time. No rush.

  51. Don — on 28th August, 2007 at 6:18 pm  

    Bleh,

    We’ll never get accurate figures, but UNICEF disagrees with you. pointing out that around 30% of the dead were children.

    http://www.unicef.org/emerg/index_35274.html

    (Not including those still being killed and maimed by cluster bombs.)

  52. douglas clark — on 9th September, 2007 at 10:37 am  

    What a fascinating comment by Family Christian Bookstore. Is this Artificial Intelligence, or God working in mysterious ways. I think we should be told.

  53. Rumbold — on 9th September, 2007 at 1:14 pm  

    Douglas Clark:

    In fact, it is Vitamins Nutrition Supplements which gets to the heart of the matter, though perhaps you did not understand because your reading of the post was not nuanced enough. Heh.

  54. douglas clark — on 9th September, 2007 at 5:34 pm  

    Rumbold,

    Thanks for that. Indeed, Vitamins Nutrition Supplements seemed to have more of the arguement than Family Christian Bookstore. Would I be right to assume that evolution has taken place in the spam bot world. And that Christians are, by and large, against that?

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