ddexdsfd…

Really? That’s interesting… hmm…

So 10% said their parents objected to their finding any work? How many had parents who objected to their working in “certain professions”?

MYTH “We are an equal opportunities employer. We treat everyone the same.”
FACT One in three black Caribbean working women under 35 and one in five Bangladeshi and Pakistani women have experienced racist comments at work.

I have heard comments at work to the effect that (white) English men are cheap. Strictly speaking, an Englishman who overheard could claim to have experienced “racist comments”.

MYTH “They don’t speak English – that’s why they don’t have jobs.”
FACT Around three in five Pakistani women and black Caribbean women, and nearly half of Bangladeshi women in the UK were born here. Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are more than twice as likely as white British women to be fluent in another language besides English.

Which says nothing about the number who are fluent in English.

MYTH “It’s too risky taking on an Asian woman. They could be sent away to get married, and chances are they will leave as soon as they have children.”
FACT Young Bangladeshi, Pakistani and black Caribbean women with children are more likely to aspire to senior positions than white British women with children.

Is this an argument in favour of hiring Asian women, or against hiring white ones? I imagine many of those girls who were “sent away to get married” aspired to senior positions. And it does not matter what decision they think they will make in the future: it matters what decision they will make in the future.

Why do they not look for facts to disprove the myths? Are they just interested in telling people they are on the side of virtue, instead of actually trying to persuade anyone?

that is actually an illegal question in the USA. You are not allowed to ask anyone about race, religion or their family status (married / single etc)

I am told it’s the same in the UK by a family member who is in employment law.
It just shows how ignorant and the lack of training this interview has had.

I’m very much responding in terms of the actual study. So I don’t think it’s true that the investigation was conducted by someone from a ‘quasi theological racism-hunting paradigm’ – though I’m not sure I really understand what that is! Some of the statistics, for instance, are from the census and ONS labour force study, used by people from across the political spectrum and treated as ‘official’ data on the population.

What do you mean by ‘real racism’? And ‘marginal issues of misunderstanding’? I’ve used specific examples of what I mean by racism: someone choosing not to hire or promote someone because of a stereotype about another person to do with their race/ethnicity/culture. That doesn’t seem marginal to me, no. And it would most certainly be treated as ‘real racism’ by an employment tribunal if exposed.

Lots of women do quite well in the workforce too; I don’t accept that there isn’t a glass ceiling or that sexism isn’t rife just because of that fact.

I think there’s been some real confusion about what the investigation looks at. The study is about more than employment levels – it talks to women who are actively looking for work or are already working, and it asks questions about pay gaps (getting paid less for the same or equivalent work) and their experiences in the working world. It is about women who are educated and highly qualified and are part of the economically active labour force (meaning are working or actively looking for work), not the women who are at home (for whatever reason).

Absolutely I think the questions are worth asking. This study is quite specific in its remit though and thus far the challenges to it have not convinced me.

Do you not think that it devalues real racism to conflate marginal issues of misunderstanding with that term?

Why do so many Asian women (and men) succeed in the workplace if racism is so widespread as an inhibiting factor?

Do you not think there are internal barriers to employment success amongst some Asian women and men of particular backgrounds? Why is there such a difference in employment levels between Indians and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis?

Is there a mechanism to address these questions?

Do you even think they are worth asking?

The study does compare the ethnic minority women with white women with similar educational attainment.

I think it’s worth looking at the actual study rather than supposing that there is something nefarious at play. After all, Black Caribbean women are an interesting group to compare Pakistani and Bangladeshi women with precisely because they don’t face the same perception that their issues in the work place are down to ‘internal social barriers’ that many (including many of the posts on this site) argue ‘Asian women’ face.

On the other hand, think it would be helpful to brainstorm what some of the ‘other reasons for the differentials’ might be, if you have ideas?

I guess it depends on what you mean by ‘misunderstanding’. Deciding whether to hire or promote someone based on perceptions that are to do with your understanding of their race/ethnicity/culture rather than their performance in a standardised interview (e.g. don’t just ask the women or Muslim-looking women whether they’re planning on getting married and having children!) or on the job itself doesn’t have to be malicious for it to be racist – it just has to be treating someone less favourably because of their race.

Like it or not, this is the definition of institutional racism as used in the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry. Not just my opinion.

Anyway, I have heard so many times people say things like, ‘I suffer racism at work because people go to the pub after work on Fridays, and I can’t drink, it’s ignorance and cultural racism, I feel so marginalised and oppressed’

You know, stuff like this utterly trivialises genuine racism.

If there is a significant disparity between the experience of Indian and Chinese women on the one hand and the other minorities cited, it would suggest that there may be other reasons for the differentials. I think some may be wary of investigating this fully, because they are dogmatically stuck in a trench of ‘racism-hunting’ and don’t pay enough attention to issues like internal social barriers to workplace success and employment. A comparable study with white women of similar educational attainment and class status would also provide us with a more nuanced understanding of this issue.

institutional racism is defined as: The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.

I have problems with this. I have problems with the implication of the ascription of collective liability for incidents of racism that may be rooted less in racism than misunderstanding. I don’t think that is racism.

I think it’s a recipe for perpetual victimhood hunting, I have serious issues with condemning and characterising an entire institution as racist. It can also have the whiff of witch hunt about it.

1. on racism

There are a couple of comments that are suggesting that racism is about beating people up in the street, and anything less is not actually racist. But when people use stereotypes (or assumptions based on their ideas about another person’s ethnicity/race/culture) to make decisions about recruitment and promotion in a workplace, whether out of ‘ignorance’ and even if not *intending* to be malicious (though I wonder how you’d measure that), they are being racist.

Racism isn’t only hate; institutional racism is defined as: The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people. (From: http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/cj_sli.html)

I think we’d get a lot farther generally if we were more open to the idea that racism (just like sexism and homophobia) is quite mainstream – it’s subtle and we all need to work on our internal assumptions and prejudices.

2. on the investigation

Sonia, they do say where they’re getting their facts from: the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC)’s Moving on Up? investigation (and there’s even a link to it: http://www.eoc.org.uk/default.aspx?page=20294). For those who didn’t get a chance to read the background on it, it’s the largest investigation of its kind in GB and took two years to complete – it’s not a MORI poll!

I don’t think the fact that they haven’t focused on Indian or Chinese woman invalidates the findings, though agree it would be good to have info on these groups too. Here’s hoping someone manages to secure some money to do this, and to the same level of detail. And here’s the EOC’s explanation on why they chose to focus on the groups they did: http://www.eoc.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=17696

Sonia — discussing one thing does not preclude discussing another. No need to panic.

haha, c’mon Sonia, you know me better than that surely?

“Almost 90% of 16-year-old Bangladeshi and Pakistani girls in the UK said their parents supported their choice to find paid work.”

I agree with Sonia on this one. It is unlikely that the survey spoke to the girls who were least likely to be allowed to find work, as they were probably stuck at home. While there is an inaccurate perception of all Muslim girls being locked up at home all the time, some of this does go on, and the survey seems to be glossing over that.

As for the universities, Sonia is again right, up to a point. Some universities, like Loughborough, are especially good at certain subjects, but, overall, some universties are better than others and so on average the older universities will be better than the ex-polys.

As for racism at work, that is always a difficult one. Sofia is right in #1. There are obviously racists out there, but, for the most part, ‘racist’ comments probably derive more from ignorance and general malice than any genuine hatred of the victim’s race. If they were not making racist comments they would be saying something else hurtful.

I worry for the boys who often may have poorer communication abilities and lack the ‘soft skills’ needed for the contemporary labour market. We are all the poorer if we neglect the boys because all that will create is a resentful, socially deficient and unmarriageable young male populace