“You self-identify as an anarchist, so you defend this label you give yourself. Maybe the fact is that BNP members do not self-identify themselves as fascists.”

Good point Jason – it was only a random thought of mine, which are often not completely thought through before I chuck them out there to see what others think!

You self-identify as an anarchist, so you defend this label you give yourself. Maybe the fact is that BNP members do not self-identify themselves as fascists.

Besides, fascism, divorced from a historical context, ie: the fascism of the Nazis, the fascism of Franco, and so on, as a word, doesn’t really mean anything.

This use of vague terms that denote nothing has all been dealt with in linguistics. I would say likewise that ‘anarchism’ denotes practically nothing until you take up the topic with specific examples, and then, perhaps I would agree/take issue with you. That’s how it works.

As for the thrust of the blog post itself, I was aware of the BNP facebook page before this broke as they were sending out friend invites, seemingly at random (as the friend who received one is a massive Crass fanatic and would never engage with any organised political party) and regarded it as something of a joke, but still valid. As facebook says on the front, “Everyone can use Facebook”

The actual controversy concerned advertisers ads being run on the BNP page, as they did not want to be associated with the BNP, which is fair enough.

I believe that the BNP’s specific claims should be dealt with under the law. When they have a case to answer, prosecute them and let justice take its course. Beyond that, they are just as entitled as anybody else to broadcast freely and so on. To be drawn into ‘freedom of speech’ debates with the BNP really is to allow the BNP to frame the argument, as it is clear that one of their favourite tactics is to employ the notion that they (and by extension what they call ‘white culture’) are under constant attack from those who would destroy Britain. So, while I may not disagree with the intent of the poster, I think tactically it can be something of an own goal trying to extract oneself from advocating the squashing of free speech, when it’s sounder to just advocate enforcement of the laws that cover hate speech as they stand.

JT was right on one point and that was the cringe-making riposte that the law determines what is a lie, although they then devalued the worth of their point with a totally inflammatory example. There are a few laws where the veracity of a claim may be the entire basis of a case (holocaust denial laws, slander, libel) etc, but, in a libel case for example, the court is finally, not ruling on the truth/falsehood of a claim but on the evidence for the claim being truthful/false, and, as such, is not establishing objective truths with its decisions (common sense tells us this, that is why a case can be reopened after a verdict due to new evidence, sometimes thousands of cases are reopened not because of specific new evidence in a particular case but simply because a new scientific technique now allows a new analysis of evidence).

The BNP also like to try and legitimise themselves by comparison with other “nationalist” parties like Plaid Cymru or the SNP, but the crucial difference is that both of those are parties solely interested in geographical areas, and that neither bars membership to people of different ethnic backgrounds.

The BNP may have taken off their boots, but they are still nothing more than fascists in suits.

Something else that dawned on me recently is that no anarchist I know would ever deny being an anarchist, despite whatever (misplaced) negative reactions that might incur. We’re always happy to call ourselves anarchists, and explain what that means in reality if someone takes issue with it. But fascists (with perhaps the exception of the real hardcore Hitler-worshipping types) nearly always deny being fascists, and the BNP are no different.

The root of the fascism problem is the fact that people are let down by politicians – privatisation, crap wages, decreasing benefits, high house prices, dwindling pensions, little prospect of a bright future and zero actual say in the running of society. When the BNP come along with simple “answers” and an easy racist scapegoat, it’s no wonder some people support them.

Another part of the way the BNP are getting support at the moment is by being seen to be the rebellious-outside-of-the-system party.

But the odd thing about this is that actually, fascism, as a “philosophy” (if you could call it that), both in theory and practise, is really, really boring.

It’s not rebellious in the slightest – it’s ultra-conformist (to the point of skin colour) and uniformist. Where’s the appeal, the excitement in that? It’s boring as shit!

I think this is something anyone opposed to fascism should emphasise more – that diversity is interesting, healthy and fun, and that far from being “different” or “rebellious”, fascism is the ideological epitome of boringness. In effect, enforced “boringness” (and far worse) society-wide.

Let’s not beat around the bush: fascism and racism are extremely boring, unoriginal and conformist ideas, and those who support them make even John Major seem like the sort of chap you could have an interesting chat over a pint with.

I yawn in the BNP’s general direction.

“What’s wrong with glorifying culture? Leftists glorify multiculturalism all the time. Oh wait, it’s the ‘white’ bit you don’t like. Actually it IS under attack – how is traditional Cockney London these days?”

‘White’ culture, if one can use such a euphemism, is not under attack. Culture is always changing, and the influx of different peoples reflect that. ‘White’ culture changed with the coming of the Saxons, the Normans, the Huguenots and so on. Keep the best bits from the old and absorb the best bits from the new- it is the English way.

“Typical leftie stupidity.”

You called for people to stop insulting the BNP, then you insult them. Make up your mind. And Griffin did not destroy Paxman.

Devil’s Kitchen:

“Once again, Sunny, you have posted something that almost refines and defines the concept of stupidity…You are an idiot. Go away and please, please, stop inflicting your stupidity on the rest of the ‘net.”

See, this is your problem Devil’s Kitchen. You make a very good point about trying to understand why people vote for the BNP (I doubt that they are all dyed in the wool racists), then spoil it by hurling pointless abuse at another poster. If you want to do that sort of thing on your own blog, fine, but here it is not acceptable. The end result is that it makes you look incapable of constructing a reasoned argument, when I know that is not true, as I often find myself agreeing partially with you.

Why not give the BNP a platform? They are a joke, whose arguments can be easily refuted. Let them make their case to the public, and let us demolish it. The BNP should be given a chance to speak not just because of the principle of free speech, but because if we just ignore them and yell racist at them people will carrying on voting for them- we need to take their arguments apart line by line, very publicly. Just look at what happens when they actually got into office:

“The BNP’s position deteriorated even further when another of its councillors, Luke Smith, smashed a bottle into the face of a fellow BNP supporter.”

“The BNP did have one councillor in Blackburn, Robin Evans, but last September he walked out of the party. He then wrote a letter to his former BNP colleagues denouncing Blackburn BNP as a party of drug dealers and football hooligans.

He has remained a councillor, describing himself now as a “national socialist”, but plays little part on the council.

Last year Searchlight reported that Evans could not follow council business. “This is all mumbo jumbo,” he told fellow councillors. “I don’t understand a word of it.” The mumbo-jumbo he was referring to was the council budget!”

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/index.php?location=election&link=BNP40.htm

Leftists glorify multiculturalism all the time.

Irrelevant. I’m neither a “leftist” nor a blind advocate of “multiculturalism”.

What’s wrong with glorifying culture?

Nothing, as long as a) you’re not exaggerating and distorting the reality of what the “culture” entails, b) your glorification of said culture does not distort your judgement and/or cause you to have an intrinsically negative attitude towards people from the same background who deviate from what you perceive as the “pure” aspects of this culture, and c) you do not regard members of said culture to be intrinsically superior towards people from other backgrounds.

Oh wait, it’s the ‘white’ bit you don’t like.

Define “white culture”. Also confirm exactly where I have indicated any prejudice or animosity towards white people per se or the aforementioned “white culture”.

Actually it IS under attack

From whom ?

– how is traditional Cockney London these days?

Define “traditional Cockney London” and the associated “culture”.

Still, if they had support from the people, big business would follow. The problem is that racist organizations in the US are incredibly virulent, which makes the BNP look like a lefty organizations, and that is because the constitution allows them to be that way. The BNP has a cleaner image only because it needs to survive.

“I’m curious, do you think Churchill was a Nazi?”

You know, you can use the term “nazi” to denote a racist during any period in history, except probably during World War II. That makes you look incredibly stupid.

ChrisC, is Shakespeare (or the Archers) under attack from Third World hordes, that you feel it needs defending? When you ask “Why shouldn’t white people publicly defend their own culture?”… you are implying that some people are preventing you from defending Shakespeare, the Archers or any other element of the British culture. It makes little sense. What is going on?

You see, you made my point. Without realising, you are just following the BNP rethoric of changing the word “race” to “culture” to suddenly make it less disgusting. What you want to do in reality is not defend “white culture”, because honestly there is little that connects British culture to German culture to Italian culture. When you talk about “white” culture you are talking about race. Let’s cut the bullshit, shall we?

PS Nutters I like white skinned people, will you like me as a brown skinned person?

The law cannot deem any people of a race to be rapists by default any more than it can deem stupid people like you to be locked up in a mental institute as soon as you’re born. Stop making stupid analogies in a failed effort to sound intelligent.

After suppressing his own data for several years he could only come up with a few banal statements about some future ‘golden age’.

So first you quote Putnam and then you say he doesn’t know what to say about his own research? Or maybe you didn’t want to read the bit that he’s quite positive on diversity because that bit didn’t fit your agenda?

We already have laws for language that incites violence etc.

Exactly, and that’s what I’d like enforced. Facebook has its own policy on now allowing hate speech on its Groups and it will follow its own policy.

So are you saying that black/Asian culture has nothing to contribute because it doesn’t exist?

I’m saying there is no homogenous definition for it. You still haven’t defined “white culture” for us.

What’s wrong with glorifying culture? Leftists glorify multiculturalism all the time.

You imbecile, multiculturalism is vaguely a form of government policy while culture is how people live. This is a false and stupid comparison, like the rest of your drivel.

Tell you what, go to Devil Kitchen’s blog. He’ll understand where you’re coming from. Bitch and moan and scream together. Go forth and multiply.

Because you’re genetically challenged?

You are an idiot. Go away and please, please, stop inflicting your stupidity on the rest of the ‘net.

How about this instead. Go back to your little blog where you can scream and bitch and moan and swear for the rest of your sad life, and where people pay you little attention, and you leave others to do their own blogging.

You keep out of my way and I keep out of yours. Unfortunately for you, I don’t take advice from twats who suffer from Tourettes on whether or not I should be blogging.

It seems to be that you “support free speech” unless, of course, it is the BNP that are free speechifying.

When will people like you realise that, whether you like it or not, the BNP get more votes than, for instance, UKIP (of which I am a member) and that you need to understand why people vote for them. Shutting down the debate, as Guardian lackeys like yourself always do, does not help in this regard.

And whilst you wank on about how much you want to preserve free speech, you only want to allow free speech as long as it is on the views that you find acceptable.

So, yes to getting rid of the BNP imagery and general hate-mongering against Muslims. But if the idiots want to sit around discussing the death of “white culture”, then they should be allowed.

Talk about selective.

You are an idiot. Go away and please, please, stop inflicting your stupidity on the rest of the ‘net.

DK

Sunny:
“Who gets to decide what the ‘lies’ are, then?
The law.”
So no more need for universities or academic research once ‘the law’ is made? If the ‘law’ said all black people were rapists would that become ‘truth’ with you? If the ‘law’ said there were WMD in Iraq would you believe that too?

Putnam had no real response to his own findings. After suppressing his own data for several years he could only come up with a few banal statements about some future ‘golden age’. Never mind about the suffering caused until then.

“Since when has ‘hatred’ been illegal anyway?
When it incites people to kill or hurt others.”

We already have laws for language that incites violence etc. Hatred is an emotion – it’s in your head where the law doesn’t belong. Can we outlaw “love music hate racism” campaigns?

Sunny: “I did in fact put inverted commas around “black culture” when Tony Blair blamed that for gang violence.”
Come off it, Sunny. You only did that because then it had negative connotations. So are you saying that black/Asian culture has nothing to contribute because it doesn’t exist?

Sofia: “I do agree with freedom of speech to the extent mentioned above but along side freedom comes responsibility”
Typical leftie stupidity. You’ve heard this silly argument from the writings of other useful idiots and simply repeated it. You really mean responsiblity to agree with you or go to prison. What constituted ‘responsible speech’ under Nazi rule or the Communists? Don’t you see how standards of ‘responsibilty’ change with the prevailing political fashion?

“As for deciding what lies are and are not, please JT, do you read what the BNP spouts???? You’d have to be stupid not to see their racist propaganda for what it is.”

Why don’t you give us some examples, Sofia, direct from the BNP themselves instead of the usual recycled Searchight disinformation that you ingest like textural morphine, from the pens of communists and convicted criminals like Gerry Gable?

Jai: “It always amuses me when I hear about BNP-types glorifying “culture” and claiming it’s “under attack”.”

What’s wrong with glorifying culture? Leftists glorify multiculturalism all the time. Oh wait, it’s the ‘white’ bit you don’t like. Actually it IS under attack – how is traditional Cockney London these days?

Ravi Naik: “Extreme-right racists have little or no exposure to the democratic process in the US, unlike in Europe. Why? I believe it is all about freedom of speech.”

No, actually it’s because the cost of running an election campaign is utterly prohibitive to anyone without the backing of big business. The USA is more racially segregated than ever, even in their schools. And would you label the numerous, low skilled blacks in the USA ‘white supremacists’ for resenting the influx of cheap labour from Mexico? And your race violence comment is patheric – in the UK by far most racist attacks are against whites.

Jagdeep:
“The best thing to do would be to set up an anti-BNP facebook group, updating it regularly with the truth about the BNP’s fascist and racist roots and ideology, responding to the BNP’s assertions and positions on facebook, subverting and making explicit their creed. A nice way to neuter them. Invite everyone, the members will easily outnumber the fascists, a good opportunity to show them up for the twunts they are.”

In your dreams. You wouldn’t last ten minutes before abandoning legitimate debate for racist/nazi/supremacist slurs. Didn’t you see Griffin destroy Paxman a few years back? Even the UAF and students unions know this which is why they argue for the BNP to be silenced.

I’m curious, do you think Churchill was a Nazi? I mean, he was concerned at the numbers of immigrants entering Britain in the 1950s and the threat of racial unrest.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/politicspast/story/0,,2142099,00.html

And I point out, it is my “Right” and “Duty” to do so.

Apparently I should at the front of the queue when the next stabbings are being dished out. Nice people.

Clearly though I am a UAF supporter they do get things quite wrong from time to time. The SWP cadre. I thought their knee jerk ballerina boycott was a case in point and cued up a couple of blogposts without brepssing the publish button …

Why shouldn’t white people publicly defend their own culture?

“Defend” ? Exactly who or what is this ephemeral “culture” under attack from, that results in it allegedly needing to be “defended” ?

In the Muslim religion they say…”hush child, it is just the tears of the children Mohammed is RAPING” !