Pickled Politics






  • Family

    • Clairwil
    • Daily Rhino
    • Leon Green
    • Sajini W
    • Sid's blog
    • Sonia Afroz
    • Sunny on CIF
  • Comrades

    • Aqoul
    • Blairwatch
    • Bloggerheads
    • Blood & Treasure
    • Butterflies & Wheels
    • Catalyst magazine
    • Chicken Yoghurt
    • Clive Davis
    • Curious Hamster
    • Daily Mail Watch
    • Dave Hill
    • Derek Wall
    • Dr StrangeLove
    • Europhobia
    • Faith in Society
    • Feministing
    • Harry's Place
    • Indigo Jo
    • Liberal England
    • Liberal Review
    • Matt Murrell
    • MediaWatchWatch
    • Ministry of Truth
    • Natalie Bennett
    • New Humanist Editor
    • New Statesman blogs
    • open Democracy
    • Robert Sharp
    • Septicisle
    • Shiraz Socialist
    • Shuggy's Blog
    • Stumbling and Mumbling
    • Tasneem Khalil
    • The Other India
    • Tim Worstall
    • UK Polling Report
  • In-laws

    • Desi Pundit
    • Incurable Hippie
    • Isheeta
    • Neha Viswanathan
    • Power of Choice
    • Real man's fraternity
    • Route 79
    • Sakshi Juneja
    • Sepia Mutiny
    • Smalltown Scribbles
    • Sonia Faleiro
    • Turban Head
    • Ultrabrown





  • Site Meter

    Technorati: graph / links

    Food for thought


    by Katy on 8th August, 2007 at 1:51 pm    

    What do we think of this, people?

    I think it may be one of the scariest things I’ve ever read. Read it through (it’s longish) and tell me what you think.



    Print this page and comments   |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Current affairs




    72 Comments below   |  

    1. Katherine — on 8th August, 2007 at 4:22 pm  

      That is just… well… I’m almost spluttering as I type. That’s appalling!

      A breach of the peace?! Is it bollocks! Police intimidation more like it.

    2. Billy — on 8th August, 2007 at 5:44 pm  

      I agree. That is horrendous.

    3. contrarymary — on 8th August, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

      Unbelievable. However, funnily enough, a friend of mine was telling me about a very similar situation just yesterday. He was walking through Brockwell park on his way home from work. It was a sunny evening, and all of a sudden the heavens opened.

      And a football team for under 10s ran for cover under a tree. My friend thought this would make quite a dramatic pic (light, dark, and 25 people sheltering under a tree with rain sheeting down - sounds lovely and moody if you ask me).

      and from a 20/30 yard distance took a pic. ten seconds later. angry parents are accosting him. asking why he took the picture. he was taken aback and very polite. and said look I will delete it. so he did. but the parents continued and one lady, introduced herself as a child protection officer and began harrassing him again.

      eventually the incident passed. but I was flabber-ghasted. my friend did well not to lose his temper. I’m not sure I could have kept my cool. it’s ridiculous. utterly ridiculous.

      since when is it illegal to take pictures, that might have children in them?

    4. Don — on 8th August, 2007 at 6:30 pm  

      On things like school sports day we have to refer to a list of kids who can’t be photographed and edit them out. Which can look wierd in the three-legged race. No parents allowed to take photos on school premises.

    5. leon — on 8th August, 2007 at 7:16 pm  

      Haha! See the liberal outrage! Sorry people much as I appreciate and respect you all this should come as no surprise.

      All that’s different now is that people other than Black or Asian people are starting to get a taste of what the police can be like…

    6. Dave S — on 8th August, 2007 at 7:34 pm  

      Surely you’ve seen this “Suspicious behaviour on the tube” story… pretty similar:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1575411,00.html

      Or this one, involving a friend of mine who is a freelance photographer who was arrested and is still on trial for doing nothing more than taking a photo of an armed Police unit in a public place:

      http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/03/336778.html

      Or this one, in which another friend of mine was threatened with arrest for taking a photograph of a Community Support Officer in a public place:

      http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/03/364864.html

    7. Sunny — on 8th August, 2007 at 11:32 pm  

      heh, I’m inclined to agree with Leon. Henry Porter’s been banging about this for ages.

    8. steve — on 9th August, 2007 at 12:10 pm  

      Proiblem is, it’s getting to the point where we willneed a permit to photograph anything. I’ve just left a camera club as they had been told that to obtain any further funding from the council they had to have a child protection policy. Why? The club had no sessions involving children at all and any pictures of children already had a model release form so wtf. I kicked up a fuss and said we needed to have a hate crime policy, age discrimination policy and a host of others but I feel the irony was lost on them….

    9. Katherine — on 9th August, 2007 at 1:37 pm  

      Sunny, Leon, I fail to see why it’s that funny that anyone be subject to this kind of police behaviour. I’d be outraged if it happened to anyone, Black, Asian or white, and frequently am. The situation wasn’t race or colour specific, so it’s not as if it’s whiteys getting outraged at a whitey getting hassle from the police - it’s people getting outraged at a person getting hassle from the police.

    10. Leon — on 9th August, 2007 at 2:03 pm  

      You’ve never laughed due to incredulity?

      I think it’s clear that I was laughing at the reaction to this not at the police behavior itself.

    11. Katherine — on 9th August, 2007 at 3:36 pm  

      Oh I get that you are laughing at the reaction, I’m not quite so sure why you are pouring scorn on the reaction. That us soft, soft liberals are outraged that the police were acting wrongly? Bad me, I must remember not to be pissed off with the police because they do it all the time.

    12. Sunny — on 9th August, 2007 at 3:44 pm  

      Bad me, I must remember not to be pissed off with the police because they do it all the time.

      Katherine, I’m not laughing at ’soft liberals’, but laughing at the incredulous reaction given that people such as Henry Porter and others have been banging on about it for ages.

      Race doesn’t matter, but it is usually minorities who feel the brunt first of police brutality or attack on civil liberties. So this is, I would say, old news.

    13. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2007 at 3:49 pm  

      Henry Porter? Ha ha. Dunni who he is, but there’s a wealth of ‘Henry Porter and the…’ type headlines just waiting to be written. Make him famous JK Sunny

    14. Katherine — on 9th August, 2007 at 4:36 pm  

      I get it Sunny, I really do. But I will fight every hard against that sort of reaction because it belittles the seriousness of the issue. I don’t care that it’s old news or that Henry Porter has been going on about it for ages - I will continue to be appalled (not incredulous, since that means disbelieving, and I am certainly very aware that this does happen and has happened many many times before) because it continues to be appalling.

    15. Katherine — on 9th August, 2007 at 4:37 pm  

      And please note that of the reactions before Leon made his comment, only one said “unbelievable”. The others were “appalling” and “horrendous”, not incredulity.

    16. sonia — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:10 pm  

      BIG BROTHER! 1984 is here:

      hmm this is extremely worrying - they seem to be particularly paranoid about photographers.

      it reminds me of hearing my activist friends talk about going on demonstrations and having camera fights with the police - i guess nowadays its all about who captures what on film.

    17. sonia — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:11 pm  

      seems like if there’s not a race angle, some folk aint interested!

    18. Leon — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:16 pm  

      I’m not quite so sure why you are pouring scorn on the reaction.

      Obviously.

      Have a look into deaths into police custody or read up about the SUS laws, or even listen to some Lynton Kwesi Johnson and you’ll get an idea of why I’m not alone in my reaction.

    19. Robert — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:17 pm  

      I’ve already mumbled a few ideas on this subject over on my own blog.

    20. douglas clark — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:27 pm  

      There was a particularily interesting link here, as to what legal rights you have and don’t have when taking photos. It is much more restrictive than I had first imagined.

      http://www.sirimo.co.uk/ukpr.php/2004/11/19/uk_photographers_rights_guide

      There is a legal eagle, Linda Macpherson, who answers literally hundreds of supplementaries in the comments.

      It reminds me of Naomi Kline going on about public and private space, we are less free than we should be, I think.

    21. Jai — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:38 pm  

      Dunni who he is, but there’s a wealth of ‘Henry Porter and the…’ type headlines just waiting to be written.

      Hari Puttar and the Lascivious Uncle.

      Hari Puttar and the Indignant Auntieji.

      Hari Puttar and the Blushing Bride Who Hadn’t Really Never Had A Boyfriend.

      Hari Puttar and the Cornershop of Secrets.

      Hari Puttar and the Prisoner of Ahmedabad.

      Hari Puttar and the Jalebi of Fire.

      Hari Puttar and the Order of the Pharmacist.

      Hari Puttar and the Half-Blood Patel.

      Hari Puttar and the Mad Mullah.

      Hari Puttar and the Braided Back-hair.

    22. Jai — on 9th August, 2007 at 5:39 pm  

      With apologies for the threadjack. Carry on. As you were. And all that.

    23. Katy Newton — on 9th August, 2007 at 9:23 pm  

      As someone whose job for a long time consisted of confronting the police about the way they dealt with youths in their custody, I don’t particularly appreciate being sneered at as if I’m some dimwitted white airhead who doesn’t understand about racism. It seemed to me that a man being expelled from a fairground for taking pictures of the rides was a new low in terms of the erosion of everyone’s civil liberties, but - as usual - I’m sorry I posted it. I’ll stick to the comedy from now on.

    24. Katy Newton — on 9th August, 2007 at 9:27 pm  

      Perhaps I should stop being outraged about the way that ethnic minorities are treated in custody on the basis that as it happens to everyone now it’s old news.

      I’m very grateful to Katherine and Sonia, as ever, for their mature and considered analysis. Thanks, ladies. One day we’ll rule the world and then it will be a better place for everyone.

    25. Clairwil — on 9th August, 2007 at 10:51 pm  

      Katy,
      Don’t be discouraged. I am glad you posted it. Frankly what appalled me was the level kiddie fiddler hysteria has obviously got to not the fact the person concerned was white. The ill-treatment of ethnic minorities by the police is well documented and equally unacceptable.

      Oh and I’m sure the notion that this is the first time anyone who isn’t Black or Asian has had a hard time from the Police will come as news to the Irish, various protesters and indeed anyone who’s been on the receiving end of a power daft copper chucking their weight about.

      I have to add I’m a bit saddened that one cannot express irritation at the treatment of a white person without being accused of being a ‘dimwitted white airhead’.

    26. Clairwil — on 9th August, 2007 at 10:52 pm  

      Oh and I will personally kick the arse of the next person to upset Katy.

      So there.

    27. Rumbold — on 9th August, 2007 at 10:55 pm  

      What if you are the next person to upset Katy Clairwil?

    28. Leon — on 9th August, 2007 at 11:01 pm  

      I’m really not sure if I’m reading the same thread but…

      I’m a bit saddened that one cannot express irritation at the treatment of a white person without being accused of being a ‘dimwitted white airhead’.

      Um,ok? And exactly who was accused of this and where? I don’t see that anywhere above.

      Anyhoo…seems to me that a simple honest gut reaction is being misconstrued as some kind of political outlook. *shrugs*

      Wires crossed is the term that comes to mind…

    29. Sunny — on 10th August, 2007 at 12:20 am  

      I don’t particularly appreciate being sneered at as if I’m some dimwitted white airhead who doesn’t understand about racism.

      Hold on a second. Exactly who used those words or even implied them?

      I didn’t mention race.

      And Leon said: All that’s different now is that people other than Black or Asian people are starting to get a taste of what the police can be like…

      Which is implying that police harassment is now much more widespread. Given that black kids are like 12 times more likely to be stopped and searched, this should hardly come as new news.

      But no one is sneering here. The point Leon made was: all this should come as no surprise.

      That is HARDLY calling anyone an airhead.

    30. ZinZin — on 10th August, 2007 at 12:28 am  

      Katy is taking offence at a lot of things recently. Am I the only one who has noticed this?

    31. douglas clark — on 10th August, 2007 at 2:38 am  

      Time out guys!

      Perhaps it is time that white folk realised just how ridiculous they have allowed their police to become. Perhaps, in an odd way, harrassment of the majority by Mr Plod, might be of benefit to the minority too?

      I agree with Katy that this is ridiculous. But I can see Leons’ point too that it is ‘welcome to the funny farm’.

      Perhaps it is, relatively trivial, issues like this that will help us all wake up?

      We are, I think, all on the same side here. Civil liberties for all should be something the Police respect as much as for you as for I.

      Correct me if I am wrong.

    32. The Dude — on 10th August, 2007 at 11:26 am  

      Katy

      I’m a big black male from Wolverhampton, who also happens to be a freelance photo-journalist. Well I can tell you the same thing happed to in a couple of years ago in a seaside resort of Deal in Kent. I was actually shooting library pictures at the time and being the one black man in a fifty mile radius, I stuck out like a sore thumb. I even asked permission from parents of children playing on the beach if I could take their photo’s before tripping a shutter but that wasn’t good enough for either the ole bill or the local council. I still got my collar felt.

      It all sorted itself out in the end but I was left with an abiding question. When my civil liberties clashes with the safety of other people’s children, as a human being I have to choose the latter over the former, even though every instinct tells me that I am being irrational and unjournalistic in my choice. Alas….I’m only human. Fear is the key and courage is our saviour. Serious questions need to be answered both on our war against paedophiles and our war against terror. In both cases could it be argued that the threat out weights the reality?

    33. sahil — on 10th August, 2007 at 1:37 pm  

      “Serious questions need to be answered both on our war against paedophiles and our war against terror. In both cases could it be argued that the threat out weights the reality?”

      Really good point. I think I read somewhere that the no. of children that are ‘missing’ has remained pretty constant. But apparently the government does not really bother collecting the data on this and any numbers are really unreliable:

      http://www.pact-online.org/html/pact_research.html

      But it seems that there is this overwhelming climate of fear everywhere. Everyone seems to be a potential criminal.

    34. Katy Newton — on 10th August, 2007 at 5:56 pm  

      Leon and Sunny, you both made it perfectly clear that you weren’t interested, you thought it was a fuss about nothing and you thought it was nice to see white people on the receiving end for a change. If that’s not what you thought then try proof reading your comments before you post them.

      Old news, my arse. It isn’t, actually. People being made to leave fairgrounds for taking photographs isn’t old news, it’s a new and worrying trend and a concession to the witch hunting mentality that appears to be taking over these days.

      I am indeed getting more pissed off about things these days, ZinZin. Specifically, I’m tired of hypocrisy and apathy. In our own country our civil rights are being eroded more and more every day and people on this site are so obsessed with foreign policy and George Bush that they not only can’t see it, they actually don’t care.

      Either civil rights abuses are wrong or they’re not. It doesn’t matter what the colour of the person on the receiving end is. Or at least it’s never mattered to me. So yes, I do get angry when I point out something which I think is fucking outrageous and I get “oh yeah ha ha old news we’ve had that for ages”. It’s why I post here less and less.

    35. Katy Newton — on 10th August, 2007 at 6:00 pm  

      Frankly what appalled me was the level kiddie fiddler hysteria has obviously got to not the fact the person concerned was white.

      Exactly. I didn’t even think about race when I posted this.

      Thanks for the ass-kicking too, Clairwil. You rock.

    36. Katy Newton — on 10th August, 2007 at 7:16 pm  

      Dude - I agree.

    37. Don — on 10th August, 2007 at 7:35 pm  

      Katy,

      For the record, Leon was a bit dismissive of your post, but I don’t think anyone here would be dumb enough to even imply ‘airhead’. The consequences are so clearly dire.

      On the kiddy-fiddling hysteria thing, there was an odd case in my neck of the woods a while back. A mother had been so driven to distraction by squabbling kids that she pulled over and put them out of the car on the A69, intending to swing around and pick them up having made her point. The kids (I think around 12 and 9 ) wandered down a side road and she couldn’t find them (yeah, seriously stupid mum ). The police reported numerous calls from drivers who saw the kids but said they were too scared of the possible consequences of stopping to help.

      All turned out well in the end.

    38. The Dude — on 10th August, 2007 at 9:44 pm  

      Katy

      I don’t want to burst your bubble but that incident in Deal happened almost six years ago. In my book, that’s old news. What didn’t happen was the question of my race. It didn’t come up in conversation once, not even between the lines. Even then, the kiddy-fiddler hysteria was already doing the rounds in deepest, darkest Kent. In fact I think that my race actually played in my favour. I’ve heard this story repeated many times with other NUJ members, especially Neil Turner a photographer on the Times Educational Supplement. Not a week goes by that Neil doesn’t get noticed. For him it’s a fact of life.

      Six weeks ago I pitched for an events jobs for 100 Black Men, in East London. They were going to put on a Dad2Kidz day, where fathers would take their children for a fun day out. Everything was going swimmingly until a single mother of one of those kids enquired whether I was fully checked via the Criminal Records Bureau. I wasn’t and I didn’t get the job. Next year I’m planning to shoot School proms, sport days etc but not before I jump through lord knows how many hoops. Parent’s all over this fair land are running scared while their children are trapped indoors. Kids today have little hope of adventure and even less fun. No wonder they are going wild.

    39. The iLL Man — on 10th August, 2007 at 11:19 pm  

      “I’m really not sure if I’m reading the same thread but…”

      Exactly my thoughts on reading yr original comment Leon. Were you?

      I realise it was a gut reaction and very perspective driven, but I did think Sonia nailed it quite well…….. ;)

      This is something that affects a vast amount of people, from compulsive shutterbugs like myself, to parents taking photos at sports days, to pro photographers like The Dude.

      As an issue, I don’t think it deserves to be belittled just because it’s not quite on a par with the issue of institutionalised Police racism. Are the two issues even strictly analogous? Anyway, such dismissiveness from two PP luminaries is fairly disappointing and it only serves to remind me why I only look in once in a blue moon now, rather than a few times a week.

    40. Katy Newton — on 10th August, 2007 at 11:23 pm  

      *sigh* It really depends on what your version of old news is. I think that this has really only begun to happen in the last few years, and I think people have only begun to notice it fairly recently.

      It also depends on whether you think the fact that something happens a lot or has been happening for some time means that it’s old news and not worth commenting on. Young black men have been dying in custody for decades. It’s disgusting. And I doubt that Leon or Sunny would be terribly impressed if they posted about a death in custody and I dismissed it as “old news” or suggested that because it’s been happening to ethnic minorities for years it isn’t worth talking about.

      But I agree with you, Dude, it’s not a race thing and I didn’t intend it as such. I’m just struck by how the paedophilia thing has got out of hand. None of my male friends would dare to take their friends’ children out for the day without a woman or one of the child’s parents being there. It’s terrible. The vast majority of people are not paedophiles or terrorists; why are we living in fear all the time?

    41. Leon — on 11th August, 2007 at 1:04 am  

      Sunny, thank you.

      Katy is taking offence at a lot of things recently. Am I the only one who has noticed this?

      No, you are not. But this thread isn’t about Katy and her behaviour.

      As Douglas said above; time out, a good idea if there ever was one…

    42. Katy Newton — on 11th August, 2007 at 10:48 am  

      But this thread isn’t about Katy and her behaviour.

      My behaviour? WTF is this, school? I didn’t agree with what you’d said and I said so. It’s called free speech.

    43. Leon — on 11th August, 2007 at 10:55 am  

      Bad choice of words, perhaps I should have used the word conduct?

    44. The Dude — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:13 am  

      I’ve just heard the terrible news that Tony “The MANchester” Wilson has died. I was lucky enough to have met Tony twice and on both occasions he was as always ever the gentleman and the original dude. The world of music is poorer with his passing.

      Anyway back to the topic. I think Katy is strong enough in her own personality to endure a bit of robust debate and in the hothouse of ideas, one mans (or womans) legitimate comment could easily be confused and mistaken for another mans stupidity. I would rather hear the debate in full, the good and the bad, than nothing at all through fear of ridicule (ie: the terrorist Elk) or worse still, fear of fear. It should also be remembered that Katy’s mother is still in hospital. Katy’s usual thick (and freckled) skin could just be a little thin these days, so we all have to give her a little more space than usual.

      I don’t think that Leon was belittiling Katy’s arguement but rather testing it. I’ll tell you another story.

      I was the only black person to attend and witness the Battle of Orgreave during the Miner’s Strike in the 1980’s. I was studying photo-journalism in Sheffield at a nearby college at the time and went as a student in an effort of earning some extra brownie point. Anyway when it all kicked off, it kicked off bigtime and in the mayhem of charging horses and ballistic bricks, I came across a injured miner who was having his head kicked in by about eight policemen, intent on sending him early to the boneyard. As the man screamed, another miner looked me dead in the eye and said this:

      “I’m sorry. We should have listened to you!”

      All my young life I had witnessed the police beat up on my family and friends but this was the first time I was confronted with something like this. This was a white on white beating on epic proportions and what was I left with. If it took something like this for white people to listen (really listen) to what black people had to say, then we were really in big trouble. Katy, I wish I could tell you that times have changed but I’d be lying if I did and you wouldn’t want that.

    45. The Dude — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:29 am  

      Katy and Leon

      Remember free speech goes both ways. Now lets make up and be friends or at the very least tolerate each other, for the love of free speech.

    46. Katy Newton — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:33 am  

      Remember free speech goes both ways.

      I don’t need to be reminded of that, I promise. As far as I could see, Leon said something that I disagreed with and I said so. As someone who spent seven years doing nothing but defending youths from ethnic minorities who were targeted by the police, I don’t need to be told how bad things are for them. I already know. It’s just that what I posted wasn’t intended to be anything to do with race in the first place. It was supposed to be about the culture of fear and how we are allowing our freedoms to be eroded for no reason.

    47. douglas clark — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:54 am  

      The Dude,

      Your posts @ 32, 38 and 44 are amongst the very best I’ve seen here on PP. What is that quote about asylum seekers? Something like: “we should all worry about how the government treats asylum seekers, ’cause, if they got the chance it’s the way they’d treat the rest of us’.

      It ought to be ridiculous, but strangely isn’t, that now we could perhaps substitute ‘photographers’ for ‘asylum seekers’, and it would still be valid. A warning that, as you say, folk just ignore….

      I think Katy has done us all a service by bringing up this issue.

    48. The Dude — on 11th August, 2007 at 12:35 pm  

      Katy

      With the greatest respect to you, you will NEVER know how bad things are for black people precisely because you are NOT black and as a member of the wider secular jewish community I would expect you for one to at least understand where Leon and me is coming from. My race is not an optional extra, it bascially informs everything I see, say and do and regulates my every interaction with the outside (white) world. I’m only touching the surface here because you could work your entire adult life and not come near to what I’m talking about. I will never know what it is like to be jewish in 21st century Britain. I’m not jewish, even though I’ve known jewish people all of my life. I can make informed guesses and uninformed speculation but I will never know for certain what it is like and I would be patronising your faith and your community if I pretended I did.

      Katy

      This has not been the first time I’ve held this conversation with someone like you and it won’t be the last and it always ends up with me upsetting good people. Alas the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Of all the white people I fear, it is the liberals that I fear the most. Liberals maintain that they have nothing to learn, well I’m sorry, I’m not liberal, I’m thick and I’m still learning. Unlike most liberals, I’m still at school. That’s why I contribute to Pickled Politics. For me PP is school, your mum is the headmistress and long may it remain so.

      I hope to god you recieve my comments without being hurt. I don’t want to hurt you, I want to support you but sometimes you have to be tuff in your love.

    49. Katy Newton — on 11th August, 2007 at 12:57 pm  

      THIS WAS NOT A POST ABOUT RACE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    50. The Dude — on 11th August, 2007 at 1:27 pm  

      The point being…..

    51. The Dude — on 11th August, 2007 at 1:32 pm  

      So you thought that RACE was never going to rear it’s ugly head in this thread? Well others beg to differ. That’s just the way things are on PP, one way or the other RACE touches everything.

    52. El Cid — on 11th August, 2007 at 1:56 pm  

      I beg to differ — I think.
      I don’t think bringing up race is useful in this debate, even if there are some parallels.
      I’m not even convinced that the government versus the individual is a useful framework for discussion.
      This is not about the executive versus the citizen. This is about the third strand of Harrington’s system of checks and balances — the judiciary, and its relationship with citizens. Instead of protecting us against the excesses of the executive, these days laws can also oppress us. Fear of prosecution, or civil lawsuits, shapes the modern world more than ever and the path of least resistance is what many professions err towards.
      Tell me I don’t have a point — go on.

    53. Katy Newton — on 11th August, 2007 at 5:09 pm  

      Thank you, El Cid.

    54. Sunny — on 11th August, 2007 at 5:40 pm  

      I don’t think bringing up race is useful in this debate, even if there are some parallels.

      People will bring their own experiences into any debate whether others like it or not. One may disagree with them or not, that is up to them.

      Katy has made a series of accusations above that I won’t leave unchallenged.

      Leon and Sunny, you both made it perfectly clear that you weren’t interested, you thought it was a fuss about nothing and you thought it was nice to see white people on the receiving end for a change.

      No we don’t think it was nice white people were on the receiving end for once. It was more cynicism at the fact this has been going for ages with other communities, especially ethnic minorities. That is a statement of fact, not some attempt to wear a victim badge and say: ‘lets laugh at these white people who are going through what we have’.

      Secondly, she said: I don’t particularly appreciate being sneered at as if I’m some dimwitted white airhead who doesn’t understand about racism.

      1) No one sneered at this incident. That is something the likes of Muzumdar used to do.

      2) No one said or implied Katy was “dimwitted”.

      3) There was no need to put in the “white”, with the implication that because she is white, I thought she doesn’t understand or say anything useful about civil
      liberties or that she isn’t right-on about racism enough.

      We may have a difference of opinion on whether this article demonstrates a “oh my god, look’s whats going on!!!!” moment.

      But to then take that a level further by saying I’m being sexist (and yes, I see it as a sexist comment) or that I encourage of discourahge Katy from writing about certain issues is also rubbish, is not something I will let lie.

    55. Sunny — on 11th August, 2007 at 5:47 pm  

      As an issue, I don’t think it deserves to be belittled just because it’s not quite on a par with the issue of institutionalised Police racism. Are the two issues even strictly analogous? Anyway, such dismissiveness from two PP luminaries is fairly disappointing

      Ill Man, clarify something for me please.

      Are we dismissing that there is an attack on our civil liberties? Or are we dismissing that white people don’t have to go through it as bad as ethnic minorities?

      I may not agree with is insitutionalised police racism, but it is undeniable black people are stopped and search way more than whites. Are the examples similar. Why do you think they’re not?

    56. sonia — on 11th August, 2007 at 9:56 pm  

      “Either civil rights abuses are wrong or they’re not. It doesn’t matter what the colour of the person on the receiving end is. Or at least it’s never mattered to me.”

      Yep spot on.

      and i don’t think this has been going on for ages - this thing with cameras is new, its getting paranoid about media usage.

    57. sonia — on 11th August, 2007 at 9:57 pm  

      and actually - the hysteria that any adult male is a potential sex offender, and must be treated as such - its kind of parallel to the mullah’s thinking that all muslim men are uncontrollable sexual freaks.

      if i were a man i’d be very worried!!

    58. douglas clark — on 11th August, 2007 at 10:27 pm  

      Sonia @57,

      You are quite right, as usual!

      I am worried, bloody worried.

      When we get to worrying about photographers like The Dude or The Ill Man something is very, very wrong. And we worry about this in the context of an almost total surveillance society. What’s the figure again? Most CCTV in the world is in the UK or something like that? If the State does it it’s OK, if someone takes a snap we get the ‘I’m a child protection officer’ morons out in force. Look behind you, there is probably a CCTV within a few hundred metres of where you are right now. But that’s OK? I don’t think so.

      We may be going a little bit mad. Maybe.

    59. sonia — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:12 pm  

      yep, douglas, its very creepy

    60. douglas clark — on 11th August, 2007 at 11:49 pm  

      Sonia,

      Thanks. I thought it was just me.

      Love you girl, as we say nowadays.

      Or, thanks for your support, as we used to say.

      You choose, they are both compliments. I think.

    61. sahil — on 12th August, 2007 at 12:34 am  

      BTW does this mean no more public sex?? I mean think of the kids!!!

    62. The Dude — on 12th August, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

      It seems that I could have played some part in chasing Katy away from the forums of Pickled Politics. This was never my intention and I’m deeply saddened at ther loss to our community. Hopefully she will reconsider her position when her mother eventually leaves ths clutches of the NHS, healthy.

      That aside, I’ll say this. Katy had every right in bringing to our attention the gentle, silent and insidious erosion of our civil liberties while equally Leon had every right to reminding our community that for a number of it’s members (ie: black members) this has been for a very long time a day to
      day reality of living in the UK. For me BOTH points were perfectly valid, for Katy it wasn’t.

      On second thoughts I was a bit rough on white liberals because in truth they are not the only ones who can be deaf to reason. The Black community in the UK are shamefully deaf to the evils going on amongst their own, as well as evils going on abroad (ie: Iraq). In both instances the response is always the same. If it doesn’t directly affect me, it’s none of my business. What black people can’t seem to understand is that by the time it’s does affect them, it’s too late to do anything about it. That’s how black people sleepwalked themselves into the Iraq war. So Katy please accept my apologies because there is one thing that is more dangerous to the black community than Liberal Wet White People. They are what I call ignorant niggers. Both types. The ones who can’t read and the one’s who can.

    63. The Dude — on 12th August, 2007 at 2:09 pm  

      Douglas

      I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments. 1984 came 20 years late but nobody cares. That’s why I say fuck the Oyster card and send it and all of their acolytes back to the hell from whence they came. That’s why I still don’t have one.

    64. El Cid — on 12th August, 2007 at 4:05 pm  

      People will bring their own experiences into any debate whether others like it or not. One may disagree with them or not, that is up to them.

      I don’t recall trying to bar them.
      I’m just suggesting that it’s pavlovian, childish and pathetic to do so. Is that ok?

    65. El Cid — on 12th August, 2007 at 4:45 pm  

      Maybe that reads a bit more aggressively than I intended

    66. The Dude — on 12th August, 2007 at 9:52 pm  

      Let me get this straight. Anyone who brings their own experiences into a debate (any debate) is (according to El Cid) both pavlovian (WTF does that mean), childish and pathetic.

      Clearly El Cid, you are a very articulate and intelligent person but are you human?

    67. El Cid — on 12th August, 2007 at 10:14 pm  

      You’re too polite Dude.
      As I said, maybe I was a bit harsh.
      But the introduction of race into the mix can sometimes be a needless distraction if done willy-nilly, automatically.
      I don’t define myself solely by my culture, let alone colour or gender or sexuality or creed or class or football team. My life has been too rich, varied or complicated (different spins on the same theme).
      Yes, what I bring to the table will be shaped by my experiences, but there’s a lot more to each of us than that.
      Anyway, allow me to take 5.

      I self-conscious of overusing “Pavlovian”. It’s becoming an El Cid cliche.
      For more click here:
      http://nobelprize.org/educational_games/medicine/pavlov/

    68. Kulvinder — on 13th August, 2007 at 5:53 pm  

      Ah the predatory paedophile; lurking in a bush near you.

      Oh let us laugh at the simple minded fools who fell for the homo hysteria of the 50s. We’re not like that. Our dangers are real and we need more policemen patrolling the streets telling us what to do.

      All that said i just don’t understand the rationality of anyone trusting the police. For the sake of argument lets imagine these vast paedophile gangs working in schools or finding single mothers exist; why on earth would they put themselves in such obvious danger? If i were part of the paedophile conspiracy i’d be joining the police force pretty damn quickly - and from that id work in child protection. If the ‘paedophile threat’ is even fractionally as bad as its made out the safest place for paedophiles to work would be where they’re the only ones legally allowed to look at all the child porn they want.

      Think about that the next time PC plod looks through your camera.

    69. dollymixedup — on 15th August, 2007 at 2:20 am  

      Dude it is perfectly acceptable for anyone that has access to vunerable people including children should be police checked. There aren’t many hoops - just take id in and fill in a form, it takes 10mins.

      As a CP officer of a charity (voluntary position) not only do we do that but we follow up references for the last 5 years.

      And we have employed people with records - its dependendent on the details.

      Unfortunately this doe not stop abuse. Firstly because most abuse is done by family members or friends. Secondly because people don’t get caught, victims don’t come forward - no record does not mean no history of abuse or questionable behaviour. Thirdly because CRB’s are inefficient.

      I don’t think it’s the CP lot that are objecting to people taking photo’s though. Whether they be of kids or otherwise. It’s everyday people who are being whipped up into hysteria by the media who at best are ignorant and responsible and at worst are misleading to sell papers.

      I have no ref but I’m pretty sure that the no of kids abducted and killed by a stranger in the uk has generally hovered between 5 and 10 for about fifty years now.

    70. Devil's Kitchen — on 18th August, 2007 at 10:16 pm  

      Sunny, do you actually give two craps about anything that doesn’t involve “brown” issues? you horrible racist, you…

      DK

    71. Rumbold — on 18th August, 2007 at 10:34 pm  

      Do pipe down Devil’s Kitchen- this is a blog with a focus on British Asians / South Asia. When has Sunny ever said or even indicated that he thinks the way that you accuse him of? If you disagree with him, then put forward other arguments. Don’t just hurl mud.

    72. Leon — on 19th August, 2007 at 12:15 am  

      Don’t waste your time R, the average teenager is far more mature than this idiot.

    Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

    Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2007. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
    With the help of PHP and Wordpress.