Paris riots spread across France – who is to blame?


by Sunny
6th November, 2005 at 6:34 am    

The riots in Paris have continued into their tenth night, and have spread to other cities in France. The country is teethering on the edge of anarchy.

In addition to setting schools, nurseries and cars on fire, some criminals did the same to a disabled woman. Organised criminal gangs are likely to be behind the riots.

Muslim leaders have been acting as mediators between youths and the authorities, going door-to-door to talk to the families of young rioters, or stepping in at night to stop the clashes. At the same time French Imams are trying to distance themselves from the riots.

No doubt there is a lot of pent-up anger over job discrimination and lack of opportunities.

The estates are not places of lawlessness, but where, due to the social segregation, all social tensions have become exacerbated.

Far more than their parents, the youths of these estates feel misunderstood and hated. Those who are educated or have money have escaped, resulting in an overwhelming sense in the communities that those who remain have failed.

Without a public policy that addresses these youth and their families with understanding and respect for their identity, we will not overcome a fracture as much cultural and political as it is social.

It is my opinion that the riots will be a watershed for French history leading to interesting questions about how the country deals with its minority-ethnic citizens. There are implications for Britain too of course, and I will be examining them in an article later.

But I don’t have any support for the riots – there are better ways to express your anger. This mindless stupidity and violence may fracture French society further, and once again highlights the fact that the government and local (religious and political) leaders have failed the youth. We’re seeing a more violent re-run of the 2001 Oldham riots.

I’ll be on a panel on the BBC Asian Network tomorrow morning (10am) discussing this and the Birmingham riots. I’ll be joined by Prof. Tariq Ramadan, Toyin from Ligali and some councillor from Birmingham.

Update 1:
The BBC has another good article on the situation here:

“There is a dangerous cocktail here,” said Ahmed Belmokhtar, a taxi-driver of Algerian origin, like many of those who live in the poor, crime-ridden estates like Clichy, which ring Paris.

He listed the rampant unemployment, heavy-handed policing, discrimination, poor housing and a concentration of large numbers of immigrants from North and West Africa, along with their descendents.

Many feel that the state ignores them at best and at worst stands in the way of their attempts to escape the estates.

“In the long term, it will force the government to do something for the area. Otherwise, the next round of violence will be even worse.”

In Clichy-sous-Bois, where it all started, calm was restored only after the local Mosque actively sent out people to restore calm, Newsweek reports. But a case of too-little-too-late?

In the Blogosphere, Clive Davis and The Sharpner make some good points. Jamal has more links.

Update 2: Global Voices Online also has an excellent round-up of events that lead up to the riots and what has happened since on the ground.


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  1. Opinionated Voice

    [...] While the French Government struggles to come up with a plan to deal with the riots, the question widely being asked is, “Who is to blame?”. A report being circulated focuses blame on the misconceived concept of the “Islamisation” of France, a claim that even some Muslim’s believe. Whilst I do not ignore reports that a Salafist group has been reported to have issued a call for action against France, let it be noted that the Muslim community is not in agreement. The reality of the matter is that the French reap what they sow, and I’m not just referring to the police throwing a tear-gas grenade into a Mosque at prayer time!. As I have previously stated, the root of the problem is NOT Islam or being Muslim, but instead poverty, economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing. Then there’s the facisim of the out of touch Nicolas Sarkozy. When will people and politicians start to listen to the residents themselves, who do not believe the riots to be the work of “Islamist’s”, nor the work of criminal gangs? [...]




  1. Bijna — on 6th November, 2005 at 1:31 pm  

    In the end, only the rioters themselves can tell us why they do it. Apparantly they write it on blogs.

  2. Col. Mustafa — on 6th November, 2005 at 1:41 pm  

    These muslim youths as we clearly see have nothing that occupies thier time in a productive way.
    A little bit of tension breaks the little boundaries they had in the first place.
    Now without any boundaries it just gets worse as lawlessness spreads like fire.
    There quite happy to be free and cause anarchy, partly showing anger, partly cos they don’t have anything better to do.
    Its a change from thier norm, which i suppose everyone in normal life situations looks for.
    Even the richest of the rich wants to be just normal every now and again.
    So now thier rioting even more and getting other neighbourhoods involved, which isn’t hard too do when breaking stuff and burning stuff is involved.

    I don’t know how to stop it, apart from using more violence towards them.
    In the old days when a Roman province erupted into riots by the slaves and peasants, romans would simply try and kill as many as they could.
    Effective method, but eventually the peasants and slaves revolted even more because of it, and new heroes emerged amongst them.

    They need to feel that they are part of society; they need jobs or trades that can help the middle aged and younger adults so they feel part of something.
    Alot of these youths are just lost, this riot is there family at the moment.
    They feel part of something that is changing something in thier eyes.
    It will never stop until they see different and have something else to feel part of.

  3. Bijna — on 6th November, 2005 at 1:52 pm  

    @ Sunny

    Since you will be talking about the link between Birmingham and Paris, this may be of interest:

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/429

  4. El Cid — on 6th November, 2005 at 1:53 pm  

    As a veteran of several inner-city riots, mostly in that watershed year for British race-relations — 1981 — I have mixed feelings about the current happenings in France.
    There are some strong parallels, not least the high unemployment and the way the deep prejudices of the establishment were laid bare for all to see. While Sarkozy spoke of scum in Paris’s poor suburbs, there was the Chief Constable for Merseyside at the time describing Black Liverpudlians as the offspring of black sailors and white prostitutes.
    I also recall the deep alienation I felt growing up poor and “foreign” in inner-city London; the sense of ‘them and us’ whenever we came into contact with the police. “All coppers are bastards” was our tribal mantra and The Warriors was our favourite movie.
    I haven’t quite shaken off that cultural baggage, even though I’m keen to see more coppers walking our streets these days. I guess I’m older, wiser, and richer these days.
    But I also know there’s a big difference between genuine social protest and wanton criminality. When it kicked off in Finsbury Park in the immediate aftermath of the the Brixton riots of April 1981, it soon became clear that the real target were the hotels lining the Seven Sisters Road. When north London was again up in arms in July, just days after Toxteth was set ablaze, the shops on Wood Green High Road were the real objective. What a laff, I must admit.
    Much more disappointing was Tottenham, May 1983, when we took on the National Front. Battered them. This time I was there for political reasons. But again it didn’t take long before terrified local shopkeepers became the target for groups of young men who had peeled off once the main battle had ended.
    I sensed some people wanted blood. So I’m glad the lone traffic policemen got away.
    I remember feeling ashamed at the time. The mob at first hand is a very ugly beast.
    There are definitely better ways to get a view across.

  5. leon — on 6th November, 2005 at 1:58 pm  

    “It is my opinion that the riots will be a watershed for French history leading to interesting questions about how the country deals with its minority-ethnic citizens. There are implications for Britain too of course, and I will be examining them in an article later.”

    I would agree with that but it will take more than riots, community leaders or government task forces/initiatives. It will take the collective (political) organising and action of all communities to make any “change” a thing of substance…

  6. leon — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:05 pm  

    “Since you will be talking about the link between Birmingham and Paris, this may be of interest:

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/429

    Excellent link! Cheers for that, didn’t realise this was wider than just France.

    Interesting, I wonder if there is more behind this, a pan European strategy perhaps to raise the level of civil discontent to anger and marginalise Muslims from their wider societies?

  7. Geezer — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:16 pm  

    What the hell has that link to with what happened in Birmingham? These were small scale disturbances that quickly died away unlike the Paris episode where there is mass anger at the police and the establishment.

  8. Bijna — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:22 pm  

    Just like the places in the article, ramadan ended in Birmingham with hundreds of youths throwing stones.

  9. El Cid — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:41 pm  

    Let’s not islamicise it too much, hey?
    Recommended viewing: La Haine

  10. leon — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:43 pm  
  11. Geezer — on 6th November, 2005 at 2:49 pm  

    Bijna firstly it was not the end of Rammadan lol, and secondly there was no Islamic tint to it. Remember the whole thing was started off with a bullshit rumour that saw attacks on Asian business regardless of the faith of the people who owned them.

    Your pathetic attempt to islamise this incident is reminiscent of your bigoted nature.

    Eid was on Friday the day of the incident of the graves being smashed which I should add is a grave sacrilegious attack did that result in hundreds of youths throwing stones? Stop talking rubbish….

  12. The Don — on 6th November, 2005 at 3:34 pm  

    For a rather different perspective on the situation;

    http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=597

    ( by way of http://windsofchange.net/ )

  13. El Cid — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:01 pm  

    I can see Cyrus in Central Park now: “Can you dig it. Caannnnn youuuu deeeg it!!”.
    Sounds like bollox to me courtesy of the U.S. repression industry.
    I think the era of warlords is long behind us. There’s way too many people depending on the system for it to breakdown completely.

  14. Another Geezer — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:14 pm  

    Geezer wrote:

    “where there is mass anger at the police and the establishment.”

    What happens when as must be happening the majority of the French people exhibit mass anger at the immigrants and the rioters? Questions such as Why are they here at all? Why dont we throw the lot of them out? are going to be asked. Not the wet liberal hand wringing about improving relations.

  15. T Nathan — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:14 pm  

    More comments at the bbc forum

  16. jamal — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:15 pm  

    Bijna’s link = propaganda!

    The common-denominator here is NOT Islam or being Muslim, but instead economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing. The riots in the Paris suburbs highlights the many problems plaguing Paris, that are also prevalent in Denmark, Britain, USA and elsewhere in the rapidly changing world. Even Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy now accepts that the problems are structural. I read a good article recently that acknowledge these points and ended; “I don’t believe Muslim extremism is the cause of the Paris riots, it may very well may end up being its beneficiary.”

  17. Sunny — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:21 pm  

    French people exhibit mass anger at the immigrants and the rioters?

    You seem to forget these people are French. At least they don’t have the stupid discussions around what to call these people – they are all French.

    But clearly some French are more equal than others.

  18. raz — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:29 pm  

    Great post sunny, it’s amazing how some people can’t get their heads round certain ethnic groups being equal citizens of a society.

    “Why are they here at all?” – because they were born there?

    “Why dont we throw the lot of them out?” – throw them where exactly?

  19. T Nathan — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    ahh immigrants, you cant live with them, you can’t live without them . .

  20. Sunny — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:43 pm  

    you can’t live without them . .

    I quote you a line from the best film ever, Fight Club, which is relevant here:

    “Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances – we guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us.”

    For the UK, it would also be relevant to add – “we look after you in hospital”.

  21. NorahJones — on 6th November, 2005 at 4:53 pm  

    Isn’t T Nathan one of those yobs on that thread that went out of control? How come he wasn’t banned?

  22. Bijna — on 6th November, 2005 at 5:30 pm  

    What do the rioters say?

    ——————————-

    “The question of being French is irrelevant
    - what’s in a piece of paper?” said Walid,
    19, who is of Algerian descent, dismissively
    putting his identification card back into
    his jeans pocket. “I’m from the ghetto,
    I’m from 93, end of story.”

    —————————————–

    “We want to change the government,” he said,
    a black baseball cap pulled low over large,
    chocolate-brown eyes and an ebony face.
    “There’s no way of getting their attention.
    The only way to communicate is by burning.”

    —————————————–

    “Even if you have a university degree,
    in the end all they give you is a broom,”
    hisses an Algerian cafe owner.

    —————————————–

    “It’s not a political revolution or a Muslim
    revolution,” said Rezzoug. “There’s a lot of
    rage. Through this burning, they’re saying,
    ‘I exist, I’m here.’ ”

    —————————————–

    Ahmed Hamidi, a white-bearded Moroccan
    electrician long resident in France, had no
    patience with politicians in Paris, which
    lies hardly an hour away but seems like
    another planet.

    “All the politicians care about are laws
    for homosexuals and all those immoral things,”
    he fumed. “They are against headscarves,
    against beards and against the mosque.

    —————————————–

    So the common theme is: attention.

    They are housed, well fed and well educated,
    but they still want more attention.

  23. leon — on 6th November, 2005 at 5:52 pm  

    Nice quote Sunny! Agreed FC is the best film ever!:)

  24. Another Geezer — on 6th November, 2005 at 6:00 pm  

    Ah yes of course there were no hospital staff before we had large scale immigration.

  25. Attila — on 6th November, 2005 at 6:47 pm  

    With Pure Heart

    Got no father and no mother
    No kisses and no lover
    No home country and no god
    No cradle and no tomb

    Last three days got naught to eat
    Not a lot and not a bit
    Twenty years are all my power
    Now I’m lookin’ for a buyer

    And if that has no appeal
    Let the devil have the deal
    With a pure heart I will plunder
    If needed be, I will murder

    I’ll get caught and I’ll get gallowed
    Then with bless’d earth I get covered
    Deadly grass will spring and rise
    From my heart, so pure and nice

  26. Al-Hack — on 6th November, 2005 at 6:50 pm  

    Bijna – A bit wierd that after reading those quotes you still say “They are housed, well fed and well educated”

    Housed in the poor projects, barely subsisting, and no opportunity after an education – maybe they should be thankful for being treated like second-class citizens?

  27. inders — on 6th November, 2005 at 6:57 pm  

    I’m sure the french education system could do with a shakeup like petrol bomb through a window. And maybe these poor disenfranchised rioters will get more rights by burning a disabled woman.

  28. Another Geezer — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:21 pm  

    The question of being French is irrelevant
    - what’s in a piece of paper?” said Walid,
    19, who is of Algerian descent, dismissively
    putting his identification card back into
    his jeans pocket.

    French people know they are French, to Walid its just a piece of paper. You can say he is French but he doesnt really believe it and nor do the French.

  29. Al-Hack — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:50 pm  

    to Walid its just a piece of paper. You can say he is French but he doesnt really believe it and nor do the French.

    You don’t get it do you. He doesn’t believe he is French because he is not made to feel like that by the govt or other state institutions. Just calling him French, but treating him like an immigrant, is the source of all this problem.

  30. Mr Bastardo — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:30 pm  

    Cultural identity is not determined by government fiat, Al-Hack; the concept existed long before the emergence of the modern, expensive-and-highly-useless state.

    A true immigrant would try to fit in. Since these guys do not, they are not immigrants, truely, but invaders or colonialists.

  31. Al-Hack — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:27 pm  

    Firstly they are not immigrants. Their parents or grand-parents were.

    When the media does not reprsent the voice of the immigrants, when they are not allowed to have a political or economic voice – how are they supposed to integrate?

    The days of just letting the minority (as opposed to majority) coloured people live in their little ghettos and forget about them are gone my friend.

    When people live in a country, they want to feel part of it by seeing their face on TV, by someone who knows their concerns speak for them in parliament. By working in big companies and having jobs. Where is the evidence of that in French society?

  32. Mokum — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:37 pm  

    How do you “fit in” if you are turned down for a job just because your name is Ahmed?

    This is no excuse for rioting. It’s also one of the first issues to address if you don’t like riots.

  33. bioux — on 6th November, 2005 at 7:52 pm  

    Oh really… then how come these same immigrants in the U.S do some much better than immigrants in Europe? I think a great part of cultural identity is determined by the government. An immigrant, who lives for over 1 generation in the U.S, is called an American. Whereas in for example Holland, foreigners with a Dutch passport will forever be called “allochtonen”(foreigners), this word does not even exist in the U.S.!! is this the reason why 60% of muslim-Americans have a University degree and are the richest muslim community in the world

    Anyway, Chirac should better come up with a good resolution, as this could lead to ethnic tensions and these tensions are economically very harmful. Societies in conflict always do worse economically than harmonious societies.

  34. bioux — on 6th November, 2005 at 8:07 pm  

    my comment was aimed at mrBastardo by the way

  35. MJB — on 6th November, 2005 at 8:09 pm  

    C’est beaucoup baloney. France is getting what it richly deserves.

  36. Bijna — on 6th November, 2005 at 8:23 pm  

    These rioters are better of than 90%
    of the remainder of the planet, even
    though many of them are criminals.

  37. Mokum — on 6th November, 2005 at 9:26 pm  

    They probably are better off than 90% of the planet. So what if you are 90% worse off than your countrymen, because of your race, your religion, your post code, or all three. This happens all too often and must stop, just like rioting.

  38. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 2:28 am  

    Just rather bemused on this side of the pond. Europe is so progressive after all…. lol. Still, I suspect the claims of rampant racism are bull. Much like our black community, these people are just lazy and socially inept, and never miss a chance to loot a store. Shoot em all!

  39. inders — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:48 am  

    made in America reminds me about that ol Charlton Heston quote….. ‘Out of my cold dead hands…..’

  40. Another Geezer — on 7th November, 2005 at 4:19 am  

    What will happen? More appeasement? French politicians try to feel their pain and dole out more benefits?

    Allow these districts to secede, run their own affairs? No doubt they will still have their hands out for French cash.

    The police, fire and ambulance people know it is civil war and has been, locally, for a while. This time the riots might fizzle out, next time who knows.

    Someone said earlier that they are French, born there, got passports. All true. But if the French get pushed too far that wont be a barrier to action. Walid, who I would suspect self-identifies as Algerian passport notwithstanding, will find himself dumped at an Algerian port or airport – without a return ticket. Not very nice but whats the alternative.

  41. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 4:58 am  

    I still can’t get over the fact that France banned Muslim headscarves in public schools and university’s. Isn’t freedom of religious expression a principle tenant of western democracy? I know that I would be pretty peeved if i was banned from wearing a cross to a publicly funded school.

  42. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 4:58 am  

    Out of my cold dead hands indeed. You silly europeans wouldn’t know about that.

  43. Another Geezer — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:01 am  

    made (beter) in Australia – yes publicaly funded by the French but used by muslims.

    You can see the problem here, a nice polite comment about western democracy but how can it accomodate islam. It cant.

  44. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:07 am  

    I imagine that French Muslims pay tax just like everyone else? Wouldn’t that entitle them to wear headscarves at public schools?

    I do not agree that Islam is diametrically opposed to western civilization and am convinced that the two can co-exist peacefully in the same country. It works in Australia.

  45. Limerick — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:07 am  

    Another Geezer – “will find himself dumped at an Algerian port or airport – without a return ticket. Not very nice but whats the alternative.”

    That is not going to happen. They have French passports, they are French people, and there is no chance or legal way that France could deport them. They are its citizens and its problems – whether it likes them or not.

  46. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:09 am  

    No aussie, freedom is a tenant of America. Europe has become Cuba with a little money. Europeans love to talk about racism in America and claim some absurd moral authority. HAHA… Sorry, but I’m enjoying this. I’m also looking forward to the french surrender. Can’t wait to see the cowards surrender their country to a few hundred muslim kids.

  47. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:13 am  

    America does not have a monopoly on freedom and quite frankly after the ‘Patriot Act’ I wouldn’t talk to loudly about the so called ‘freedoms’ that americans enjoy.

  48. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:14 am  

    lol yes the patriot act is just decimating freedoms. Give me a break.

  49. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:21 am  

    Perhaps made in America should ask some Muslim Americans about how much the Patriot Act impinges on peoples freedom.

    And just the other day we all found out about the CIA’s secret prisons in Eastern Europe. Places where prisoners are tortured until they give up everything they know. Prisons that are even hidden from the government of the countries they are located in. Sounds more like the KGB to me.

  50. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:26 am  

    But i digress, I don’t see a way out for the French that doesn’t involve some serious changes to their current system of immigration and integration.

  51. Limerick — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:38 am  

    v. true Australian

  52. Bikhair — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:46 am  

    Made in America,

    “Still, I suspect the claims of rampant racism are bull. Much like our black community, these people are just lazy and socially inept, and never miss a chance to loot a store. ”

    Considering most black people as lazy and socially inept is racist so the next time you try to make a point, dont contradict it so early in your post. I dont know if blacks are lazy, but I do find them to be extremely social.

    BTW, I am on the West Coast, how about you?

  53. Bikhair — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:50 am  

    Binja,

    “These rioters are better of than 90%
    of the remainder of the planet, even
    though many of them are criminals.”

    Binja stop sounding like a jerk. Blacks in America during Jim Crow still had it better than 90% of blacks in Africa, so does that mean that they should not have agitated for eqaul rights and protections? You dont compare French immigrants and thier 2nd 3rd generation colored babies to others peoples, you compare them to the institutions of France. That is the standard, not Shiites in Saddam’s Iraq.

  54. made (beter) in Australia — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:54 am  

    Well said Bikhair.

  55. Bikhair — on 7th November, 2005 at 6:34 am  

    Made (beter) in Australia I am an American Muslim. I havent been affected by the Patriot Act, because I am native, and I dont know anyone who has been affected by the Patriot Act. I do know that my friends ex-husband who is Sudanese was detained. They should have deported him because he is trouble, a big time takfiri hizbi. Also some native black Muslims were detained but because of thier adherence to the Islam, they dealt with it. If anyone is to blame it is the Muslimo- terroristos who have made so much fitna other Muslims. They are our cancer.

  56. Bijna — on 7th November, 2005 at 9:46 am  

    > eqaul rights and protections

    1) Under French law every1 is equal.

    2) The rioters dont want protection, they want
    the police out of their neighbourhood so it
    remains a no-go zone.

    3) North-Africans having less jobs than other
    French is because many of them are criminals.

  57. anime — on 7th November, 2005 at 10:10 am  

    it’s very nobel of you to stick up for muslims biouux, but when tabels are turned and scum like made in america says ‘shoot all blacks’ no one(except for bikhair) bats an eyelid.

  58. Another Geezer — on 7th November, 2005 at 10:20 am  

    Limerick – youve got to shake off this peacetime way of thinking mate. The first shots are being fired in a slide to war. It might take years yet, might hopefully still be averted, but if it happens which passport you are holding wont stop the bullets. In France it will be about who is French and who isnt.

  59. anime — on 7th November, 2005 at 10:43 am  

    another dreamer you need to stop fantasizing about immigrants with french/british nationality being thrown out the country- because THAT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

    You will see brown, yellow, black faces untill the day you die “mate” . Have a nice day

  60. Old Pickler — on 7th November, 2005 at 11:21 am  

    I still can’t get over the fact that France banned Muslim headscarves in public schools and university’s. Isn’t freedom of religious expression a principle tenant of western democracy? I know that I would be pretty peeved if i was banned from wearing a cross to a publicly funded school.

    The ban included skull caps and large crosses. Now where are all those rioting Jews and Christians?

    These thugs are rich and cosseted by any objective standards. It is not deprivation that causes this behaviour but hatred. No excuses should be made for them.

  61. Saggal — on 7th November, 2005 at 11:24 am  

    As a British Muslim woman of Somali origin, I just want to say that I am proud of the British model of integration and stand by it.

    I have been in the U.K for only 8 years, 3 of which were spent at university. I am now considered a highly skilled person and pay higher tax. I have a mortgage and live in a nice area of London. I have never encountered racism or even witnessed it in this country and before anyone says it’s b/c I have never left London, I did live and work in Shropshire where minority-ethnic people make only 1% of the population for 2 years and everyone I met was lovely. Please note I am not saying the British society is perfect. But in my experience, the British model of integration is light years ahead of everyone else’s. That’s why I had to laugh at Rod Liddle’s ridiculous claim that the U.K is now looking to adapt Holland’s approach to dealing with minority ethnic problems….What could Britain possibly have to learn from another country wrt this?!?! and from Holland of all places? Sometimes I wonder what that guy is on.

    At uni, I met a French Caucasian guy and we agreed to marry but a few visits to Paris and a few more visits with his family in Lille made me realise I could not cope with the level of racism in that country.

    The majority of the British people are not preoccupied with making us feel unwelcome, do not refuse us jobs provided we have the right education and relevant skill set. This is the reason someone like myself that has only been here for 8 years feels just as British as the next person, is proud to carry a British passport and happy to volunteer for worthy causes. Although there is a lot that could be better in this country, the majority of us minority-ethnic people are aware of, and appreciate the efforts the authorities are making to address our concerns. And it is an on-going process.

  62. Bijna — on 7th November, 2005 at 12:08 pm  

    There are few differences between the UK and the rest of Europe:

    1) culture:
    British muslims come from Pakistan, while French and Dutch Muslims are Berbers from Marocco and Algeria. Apparantly there is a huge difference in attitude here. I have talked about Berbers in a different tread.

    2) numbers
    French has 8% muslims and Uk has 2.6% muslims. So in France the number% is triple. Paris alone has 500.000 muslims, which can form a militia.

  63. little nicky shabbaz — on 7th November, 2005 at 12:36 pm  

    it’s very nobel of you to stick up for muslims biouux, but when tabels are turned and scum like made in america says ’shoot all blacks’ no one(except for bikhair) bats an eyelid.

    You gotta remember Anime that the terms Black and Muslim are not mutually exclusive. Besides that, despite the fact that there are a few so called Muslims here who proudly go against the Quran and practise hate against specific groups there’s still no reason to sink to such fuckeries. Let minded people stay bad minded, you don’t have to carry on so.

    1) Under French law every1 is equal.

    Laws are often good but a better question is how well are they adhered to? In British law it’s illegal to shoplift yet miraculously somehow items are shoplifted every day.

  64. Sunny — on 7th November, 2005 at 12:37 pm  

    Well said Saggal, agree fully, and with you Bikhair.

  65. bioux — on 7th November, 2005 at 1:12 pm  

    Bijna, your theory about Berber muslims being uncivilized, because they come from the countryside doesn’t hold up. Crime rate of first generation Berbers in the Netherlands is very low, but somehow their children (2nd generation) do possess this trait of “coming from the countryside=criminal and uncivilized”? It’s far too easy to link criminal behavior with ‘coming from the countryside’.

  66. TottenhamLad — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:05 pm  

    Repatriation (to restore or return to the country of birth, citizenship, or origin) may be a good solution to stopping the riots in france.

    (Actually wasn’t this mentioned once by the fat tub of sickening lard who used to be the ‘MP’ for Tottenham after the huge display of murderous criminality at Broadwater Farm in 1985)

  67. Bijna — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:13 pm  

    Culture does not change in one generation.

    Around the year 700 the Arabs occupied
    Marocco and converted the Berbers to Islam.
    (It is rumoured the Berbers are offspring from
    the ancient Egyptians).

    Although the Berbers excepted Islam (the
    alternative was death) they have kept their
    own language and culture, even after 1300
    years of “insistance” to integrate.

    So if there is one people that does not change
    its habbits, I would say its the Berbers.

  68. coruja — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:21 pm  

    Unfortunately, Islam is now officially The Worst Thing Ever (now that communism is over) and it is all too easy these days to ‘Islamicise’ just about any issue.

    I don’t think the rioting around Paris is because of religion; it is mainly a political conflict – of the most deprived against the state they believe is keeping them in deprivation.

    This kind of conflict doesn’t appear suddenly, out of some vacuum – it takes years of build up of resentment and a feeling of injustice and disenfranchisement. To blame it all on the fact they the rioters are ‘black’ or Muslim is far too easy, incorrect and basically exposes the bigotry that is a part of the problem.

    Don’t forget the rioters in Oldham a few years ago were also second/third generation British Asian citizens in some of the most deprived areas in Britain. The jobs their parents had – and were encouraged to come over here for – no longer exist and neither does any other opportunity.

    Isn’t there an obvious pattern in these situations? Is it that surprising that the countries mentioned in this thread Britain, France, Belgium, Holland all had recent colonies? – they had all encouraged immigration but never had a viable plan for integrating and accepting these people and their children in to the host culture.

  69. Col. Mustafa — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:23 pm  

    So what your saying is that the Berbers still keep the Ancient Egyptians language and culture alive.
    Errm, where did you get that from?
    Do you know what your saying?
    Even if that rumour was true, it doesn’t explain why they would be more willing to riot.
    I would of thought being of Ancient Egyptian heritage they would strive to be like thier ancestors, proud, advanced, intelligent, strong attachment to nature.

    Some of the posts here are just silly, people actually think that by proving thier point on a blog things will improve in France.
    Theres so many factors leading to the riots, some of which have been mentioned, some of which haven’t and some that no one will know about.
    But to argue back and forth over it aint gonna help.

  70. coruja — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:35 pm  

    TottenhamLad – unfortunately repatriation isn’t the most viable option when the people involved are born, raised and are citizens of the country they are rioting in.

    I am just guessing, but you might be one of the many people who assume all of society’s ills can be fixed by getting rid of black people now the original reasons for importing them over no longer exist and they are getting uppity asking for better treatment/jobs/life.

    It is a very good idea to hold as a) it will never happen b) because it will never happen all the real problems of society will never need to be addressed, just keep blaming them blacks!

  71. Felix Liokumovich — on 7th November, 2005 at 3:44 pm  

    I see current riots in France only as a beginning in most European countries with a large percentage of Muslim populus.
    The idea of incorporating the absolute majority of current population of Muslims into society completely failed due to governmental regulations and separatist views of many.
    The need for adjustments on both sides was obvious for more than 10 years now, but never had a chance to materialize due to many factors, but fault falls always on underclass, just like here in US in case of Blacks’ resistance to get away from subsidies and “blame others” mentality.
    It only will get worse, much worse, and very fast will become an intifada of its own kind.
    Travel/tourism, Real Estate values will get affected, everyone is a loser…

  72. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 5:40 pm  

    Eeerrrr anime, I didn’t say that. I said shoot all the rioters. And no, I don’t think most blacks are lazy. But there is a black sub-culture in America that has every opportunity in the world, but does nothing but whine about racism. And I have no problem with shooting white people who are burning cars as well. Also shoot anyone who flees the police in a car and risks the lives of everyone on the road. And any looters under any circumstances. Yup, I think that’s about it.

  73. The Don — on 7th November, 2005 at 6:40 pm  

    made in America

    Have you ever met a problem that couldn’t be solved by shooting people?

  74. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 7:41 pm  

    Do you have a better solution? Seems pretty foolproof to me. Dead people don’t throw molatov cocktails.

  75. The Don — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:19 pm  

    made in America

    When I hear the word ‘gun’ I reach for my culture. Have you an acceptable body count in mind? 50? 500? 5000? And then…? Patrol your own streets in full body armour? Until…?

    Or you might consider making it a priority to develop your society so that access to the political process is available to all, so that conflicts are recognised and mediated seriously and in good faith, so that a voice can be heard before it screams. You might consider dealing with the world as it is, not the macho movie running in your head.

    Of course, that takes time, effort, commitment, and the willingness of poor bloody coppers to stand night after night while some gutter-snipe throws rocks and abuse and still remember that their duty consists of minimising casualties. As does that of the state.

    If ‘Yee-hah’ is not a foreign policy, still less is it a domestic one. Do you have any idea of the context, any vague concept of history? any thought processes beyond those needed for a video game?

    Grow up. And take your country with you.

  76. The Don — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:21 pm  

    I apologise for the last sentence. But only to civilised Americans.

  77. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:40 pm  

    La Dee Da…. My posts have obviously been a bit sarcastic. Rather impractical to shoot the rioters. Pull your panties out of your butt and lighten up. Also, save the tripe about understanding and healing for your grandma. These people are thugs who have chosen to reject assimilation. Don’t sit on your ass and smoke hash all day, and then whine that nobody will hire you. To France I say keep up the good work. Enjoying the show….

  78. Sunny — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:41 pm  

    These people are thugs who have chosen to reject assimilation.
    Or that the government has chosen to reject them as citizens.

  79. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:46 pm  

    Maybe the government has ignored them. Maybe I’d be sympathetic if not for the riots. But now that they have killed a 60 year old man, injured a 13 month old baby, and lit a woman on fire, I couldn’t care less about their plight. They’re thugs.

  80. The Don — on 7th November, 2005 at 8:50 pm  

    made in America

    I’ll stop being La Dee Da when stop speaking in bumper stickers.

  81. made in America — on 7th November, 2005 at 9:03 pm  

    So sorry, donna. I’ll try to spice up my prose’ and see the big picture. Really, when a kid throws a brick through a bus window, hitting a baby in the head, I won’t judge. I’ll be compassionate and try to understand his anger. He is no doubt a warm and fuzzy, productive member of society, who justs wants a fair shake.

  82. The Don — on 7th November, 2005 at 9:26 pm  

    made in America

    No. he’s probably a scumbag. The problem with creating a behavioural sink is that you that you turn a child into a scumbag. You can do it really young. Sometimes they can be retrieved, but it’s expensive and time consuming and probably no society can actually do it on a large scale.

    So accept that you got it wrong and fix it. Maybe you’ve lost a generation, maybe they’ll always be scumbags. Make it a major priority not to lose any more.

  83. Kulvinder — on 7th November, 2005 at 9:51 pm  

    No events occur in a vacuum, portraying this solely as an unprising by ungrateful yobs dismisses real debate for knee-jerk reactionism. I don’t doubt that some of the men carrying out these actions are far from heroes of the underclass. Nevertheless the extent of the rioting across the nation is an indication that the institutions of state aren’t functioning as they should, the government has to whatever extent failed those people.

    A watershed moment for France, well maybe, the last election did see ~20% of the vote directed to Front National, and i doubt someone like Sarkozy would be advocated by any serious political party in Britain. Im skeptical whether any serious change will come from this.

  84. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 3:39 am  

    The more I see this unfold, the more I’m convinced that this really is all about ghetto punks. You don’t stop a bus, order the driver out, and set it ablaze in a spontaneous act of rage. That’s a very deliberate action. But france has made its own bed. The french government is a disaster. Still, france is france. If those people are so miserable, they should go somewhere else.

  85. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 3:56 am  

    BTW… Just noticed a shift in reporting. Media is no longer using the term rioters. It’s now civil unrest. Makes me sick. Blacks marching in Selma 40 years ago was civil unrest. This is nothing but animals destroying as much as possible. Reminds me of the picture of a dollar a day wetback “protesting” the summit of the Americas. Wearing a “stop Bush” sign apparently makes it ok to smash storefronts and loot. I just can’t take their complaints seriously. They should simply be shot on sight. But then again, france sucks ass. It might be better off as a muslim nazi state than a cowardly socialist wannabe world power.

  86. Mirax — on 8th November, 2005 at 4:12 am  

    Made in america, you sound a wee bit lost. Your chums at LGF and Harry’s Place are a sharp turn to the right, down an alley stinking of knee-jerk prejudice, past the open sewers …Take care that no muslim nazi mugs you along the way. We don’t want to lose such a warrior as yourself.

  87. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 4:39 am  

    Yes, I’m a horrible racist. You’re intellectually and morally superior. Gag me. I’m a realist. Terrorists are terrorists and thugs are thugs. And islam has some serious problems. Europe does as well. enjoy lala land.

  88. Kulvinder — on 8th November, 2005 at 4:43 am  

    This is nothing but animals destroying as much as possible.

    Britain said that 230 odd years ago. Oh how history proved us right.

    You’re that annoying man who kept coming on barfi, aren’t you? Flame wars aren’t encouraged here, neither are trolls. If you have something intelligent to say, you may speak even if we disagree. Revert to unintelligible rants however, and your comments will be deleted.

  89. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 2:47 pm  

    Woooooooo……

  90. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 2:49 pm  

    You mean if I’m not a pro-islamist socialist who thinks europeans are morally superior to Americans, you’ll delete my posts. Delete away.

  91. coruja — on 8th November, 2005 at 4:39 pm  

    No please don’t delete ‘made in America’s posts – they are very funny.

    I’m not a racist but a realist is always a good line and has many advocates in Europe and the USA.

    ‘Wetbacks’? ….’punks’? Are you actually “made in America circa 1950′s”?

  92. made in America — on 8th November, 2005 at 6:23 pm  

    Is “punks” outdated? How about freaks, bums, thugs, whiney immigrants, criminals, etc…

  93. Kulvinder — on 8th November, 2005 at 6:52 pm  

    You mean if I’m not a pro-islamist socialist who thinks europeans are morally superior to Americans, you’ll delete my posts. Delete away.

    No darling, ill delete if you’re shit not if we disagree.

    I did point that out.

  94. made in America — on 9th November, 2005 at 4:22 am  

    Just reading about night 13 in france. The french are truly hilarious. They can’t decide if they should be tough or kiss ass. The curfews failed miserably. Now what? France really thought it was immune to this because it opposed America. Now the euro is plummeting, Turkey is basically cheering the rioters, al jazeera is spinning the criminals into muslim heroes, and the world is laughing at the french. And what will be the result? France will move further toward communism, the sky high unemployment rate will be replaced by a basically communist employment system, the euro will fall to near third world levels, and the EU will disintegrate. So sad.

  95. Sunny — on 9th November, 2005 at 4:37 am  

    Lmao!

    Paris, where the rioting began nearly two weeks ago, was relatively calm with some isolated cases of arson and a dozen arrests, the police said.

    Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, on a visit to Toulouse, said police had reported a “fairly significant fall” in the number of violent incidents across the country by 2200 on Tuesday.
    that by the BBC:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4419770.stm

    France will move further toward communism, the sky high unemployment rate will be replaced by a basically communist employment system, the euro will fall to near third world levels, and the EU will disintegrate. So sad.

    you know that stereotype about Americans being ignorant about European affairs, you seem to fit into that too well made in america.

    If anything, France’s job market will become more loosened after the riots. And the Euro is still stronger than your dollar has been in recent times. So let’s not start being apocalyptic too soon. We Europeans are not disintegrating anytime soon.

  96. Anon — on 9th November, 2005 at 10:22 am  

    EU disintegrate – as a European I can only hope so!

  97. susano — on 9th November, 2005 at 11:26 pm  

    Who is responsible? You might also ask who wants to bring the jihad to Mexico, and how this is all connected.

    French Riots: Plan Engineered by Globalists
    France erupts as rampant immigration reaps its vengeance

    Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones | November 8 2005

    COMMENTS:
    These riots are all part of the Globalists’ divide and conquer strategy to get the populations of sovereign nations to accept global government.

    The intention is plain and simple: seperate the tribes along racial, religous, and ethnic lines and set them off against each other. When a terrorist act might be too obvious, riots are the next best thing. Both accomplish the same goal of getting people stirred up, frightened and most of all to make otherwise clear-minded poeple willing to submit their liberties to the state in trade for “protection.”

    All of this is a device to broaden the police state to be used against the general public.

    And just watch, these events will only lead to increased immigration into the country just like in the United States.

    The world watches in trepidation as the wildfires of chaos sweep from France across Europe. We are witnessing the fruits of globalization. Rampant unchecked immigration policies and the enforced fusion of multiculturalism form the backbone of the New World Order’s systematic purge of the sleeping middle class.

    Empires that have historically dominated and conquered the barbarians will one day wake up to find the barbarians are at the gates.

    A sizeable proportion of the secular humanist Westerners who like to think of themselves as part of the establishment, when in reality they are unwitting tools of the true elite, have bought into the cuddly utopian philosophy that the West is a global village which welcomes all comers and has the enlightened innate ability to homogenize millions of different people of all different colors and creeds into one giant melting pot.

    The reality couldn’t be further from the truth and images of flaming buses, schools, nurseries, terror and panic betray that fact.

    The mainly Algerian Muslims causing the chaos hate the country that has afforded them a greater living standard than their birthplace ever could. They have been programmed from day one to believe that the West owes them big time, and this is only abetted by the establishment media and the liberal hierarchy in France.

    Politicians and media mouthpieces have towed the rhetoric that somehow the state’s ignorance of these individuals and their lack of care in providing them with adequate housing, health care and employment is the cause of the rebellion.

    That in itself highlights the crux of the problem. The immigrants think the State owes them a living and are prepared to act as leeches and suck off all they can get with no return. The burden always falls on the middle class. France’s six million strong Muslim population and its insane mass immigration policies is why French taxes are the highest in Europe.

    The melting pot of multiculturalism does not work, it has never worked and it was never intended to work. The Algerians in France do not want to be part of the Western fabric because they fundamentally hate it to its very core. This is not helped by promotion of decadent and hedonistic lifestyles pumped out from every cultural and media orifice.

    Pat Buchanan’s analysis of this process makes for an excellent auderve
    but it fails to address the overarching source of the chaos.

    The real power behind the clash of civilizations lies with Globalists, in whose interest it is to foment race wars. Their vision of the Western world can best be described as a corporate fascist high tech slave plantation, with all the proles packed into high rise compact cities. The middle class simply won’t exist.

    But how will the corporate fascists make their money? The real money will not be made under the pretense of a free-market economy, but in the areas of police state security and prison complexes and in addition bombing broken-backed third world countries then rebuilding them with no-bid contract cronyism.

    Besides, the Globalists print the money and can manipulate the phony fiat money system at whim.

    The character of the riots was shaped and clarified today when a leader of the Aztlan ( http://www.aztlan.net/ ) movement in the U.S. said it was only a matter of time before similar unrest hit the streets of America.

    …..

  98. susano — on 9th November, 2005 at 11:27 pm  
  99. Mokum — on 9th November, 2005 at 11:37 pm  

    Pat Buchanan’s analysis of this process makes for an excellent auderve

    Ha ha ha! A whole loaf of claptrap, there, susano.

  100. susano — on 10th November, 2005 at 2:10 am  

    hmm, ya think? As a Nader supporter, I try not to confine myself to any boxes. I don’t care if an insight comes from Pat Buchanan or Jesse Jackson. Truth is truth, and there are many pieces to the puzzle.

    The same people who foment violence terror are the same people who want to see the poor and exploited marginalized and confined to ghettos. I suggest you look at the broader picture, and dare to step out of your left/right matrix. You might actually learn something.

  101. Sunny — on 10th November, 2005 at 2:27 am  

    YO’ure a nader supporter and you believed that rubbish? I read the first 4 paras and found so many inaccuracies that I gave up.

    I agree that one should read around, but you seem to be picking up this article because it fits into what you want to believe.

  102. susano — on 10th November, 2005 at 5:36 am  

    Sunny, yes I do. The globalists refered to in the article are the same corporatists that Nader fights against.

    Do you really belive that a few blogging teenagers (the latest theory) are behind such well organized and widespread violence?

    My sister’s name is Sunny. Love that name :o )

  103. Mirax — on 10th November, 2005 at 5:42 am  

    ‘My sister’s name is Sunny. Love that name ‘

    uh, sunny….psst, sunny, back away slowly now and RRRUUUUUNNNN!

  104. susano — on 10th November, 2005 at 8:29 am  

    Hey, Mirax, are you always such an asshole or is it that you just don’t like what I posted?

    Sunny, sorry you couldn’t read on. You might have discovered that things are not always what they seem.

    I leave you all with this. Three countries now are experiencing violence – France, Belgium, Germany. What do those three countries have in common? They all opposed the war in Iraq. They didn’t buy the “war on terror”, to their credit. They happen to have large Muslim populations. The more this violence escalates, the more these particular Europeans will begin to turn on and villify their immigrant populations. You’re going to see a law and order crackdown like never before. Throw in a couple of events like we saw in Jordan, today, and they just might rethink their position on the “war on terror” – kind of like the Americans after 9/11. Stranger things have happened. Hell, they might even pass their own version of the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.

    Do some research. Find out who has been picked up in Trinidad, on the suspicion of planting bombs. Clue – not a Muslim. Ah, but then, you’d all say wonder how that could be related to some teenagers in France, and the “spontaneous” eruption in 300 cities. I guess you’ll just have to figure that out.

  105. Mirax — on 10th November, 2005 at 9:39 am  

    hmmn, better an asshole than a conspiracy weirdo,Susano. Carry on. Do watch your back- the globalist dark forces are on to you.

  106. susano — on 10th November, 2005 at 9:18 pm  

    Political opportunism, plotting, conspiracy – it’s all as old as the hills, my friend. Read Shakespear. Or Goerbells. Or the Project for a New American Century, for that matter.

  107. Sunny — on 10th November, 2005 at 11:33 pm  

    Susano – I think you have your information all over the place. There were a few sporadic incidents in Belgium and Turkey, but nothing even near what happened in France, and certainly not anything that is in the news.

    You’ve read a few people making up conspiracies about a European intafada and you’ve started believing it. Can you please cite me any news sources saying there is widespread violence.

    No some blogging teenagers are not behind this, and there is nothing to suggest that either. It started spontaneously, and then copycat strikes spread. There might have been some coordination but again – nothing to suggest widespread conspiracy or coordination.

    If you have evidence to the contrary, let’s see it.

    Well, the UK has just passed its own version of the patriot act anyway and although I think some security tightening is necessary, maybe not too much.

  108. susano — on 11th November, 2005 at 2:51 am  

    Germany -

    http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-09T123839Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-222703-1.xml

    Belgium and Germany -

    http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B4A9D0C71-3E30-464E-B42E-EE4475D361D0%7D)&language=EN

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1638847,00.html

    Those are some links on the copycat crimes so, yes, they have made the news.

    Sunny, I said nothing about an Intifada. You misunderstand me. I said that I suspect interference, or manipulation. A hidden hand, if you will. I do not have proof, rather I look at other events relating to today’s political climate, and wonder if there is a connection. I think there is.

    While I think that it’s entirely possible for some bored teens to be used by radical Islam, that wasn’t who I had in mind. Instead, I’m thinking more along the lines of who benefits. Certainly Muslims do not gain respect from a situation like this. The ones who want to ramp up the war on terror are the ones who benefit. Ask yourself who that might be.

    To some, the riots in France may look spontaneous, and uncoordinated. To many, they incite fear – especially in light of what happened in Jordan, yesterday. In a climate of fear, the most draconian measures are readily accepted, even demanded (by sheep). When these types of laws are passed, everyone suffers, except for the ruling elite – because they place themselves above the law, and there is feck all that we can do about it, because they control the system. The more violence and chaos among the masses, the more iron fisted the control becomes until we wake up and find ourselves in a police state.

    I am not religious, so I don’t have an interest in that respect. I am anti-religious, actually. Religion is a tool of oppression, imo, and is commonly used to whip up hatred. I don’t think these kids in France are religious or have a religious agenda. I think they are criminals. Because they are so stupid to be engaged in this violence, they are ripe to be used by any number of smarter people, who do have agendas. Radical Islam definitely has an agenda. So does Israel. Again, my only question, who benefits?

  109. susano — on 11th November, 2005 at 7:50 pm  

    I just want to throw in here, though it’s off topic, something regarding the attacks in Jordan. Right after the story broke on TV, I looked at the website of the Israeli newspaper, Haaratz. The lead story said that due to Jordanian intelligence, Israelis were avacuated BEFORE the bombings. Then, a couple of hours later, clicking the same link, the story had been changed, not retracted, to read that there was no truth to the rumors that Israelis had been evacuated. Still, I found another article, in the same paper, making the first assertion, that they were evacuated. That article is there, as far as I know.

    This is the very kind of stuff that makes me a “conspiracy nut”. It pisses me to no end that this type of stuff is glossed over, merely because it doesn’t fit with people’s views of what reality is, or should be. If this true, then why the hell were the victims of these bombings not given the same opportunity to protect themselves?

    I realize this is not a forum, and I’m sorry for the off topic post, but I wanted to put it here for people to consider. I’m very upset about it.

  110. susano — on 11th November, 2005 at 8:59 pm  

    If you, Sunny, or anyone else, sees a more appropriate spot for this post, feel free to move it. Just tell me where so I can follow any discussion.

  111. Sunny — on 11th November, 2005 at 9:30 pm  

    Oh I see, you’re coming from a different angle here susano, I mis-understood.

    Much as I would like to believe that the stuff in paris was the result of forces trying to cause people to hate muslims or use it as an excuse to great chaos in Europe – I don’t believe those kids are so easy to manipulation.

    The events got totally out of hand because there is deep-seated resentment at how those sons of immigrants are treated generally. I don’t really see much evidence to suggest otherwise.

    There were sporadic copy-cat incidents, but as I said, they were not longlasting or on something even nearly on that same scale. That still stands.

    The Jordan story is interesting. I think in such circumstances its best to take a snapshot of the page (print-screen and then save as an image using an image editor), just to talk about it after.

    You are right to one extent. Working in the media, I’ve realised that what people read and see is usually the result of plenty of influences and has come significantly down the chain.

    But you can’t look for a conspiracy where there isn’t one. The first article you posted was full of so much rubbish that it could not be taken seriously. Read around, I agree, but it has to be backed up by some facts, not just purely conjecture?

    By the way, thanks for your posts, I find them quite interesting and its a perspective that I don’t see much these days. There’s no space to carry on the Jordanian story (unless it grows) but I’d be interested to hear your views on other topics as they come up.

  112. susano — on 11th November, 2005 at 11:08 pm  

    Thanks, Sunny. I think reality is damn complicated, as are conspiracy theories (and facts). Perhaps i’m wrong about France. I’m willing to admit that (and hope it).

    On the Jordan thing, should you care to follow up, here is some info -

    Scores dead in three Amman hotel bombings; Israelis evacuated before attack

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/643691.html

    The other piece first read the same, but now is changed:

    http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

    I, too, wished I’d had a screen shot. Perhaps there are some sites out there that got it. I don’t don’t know how to do a screen shot.

    Anyway, I guess Israeli intel missed the first article.

  113. Sunny — on 12th November, 2005 at 3:00 am  

    Well, remember there was a similar conspiracy on the day of the London bombings, bizarrely enough. Some reported that Israeli politicians had been moved away from their hotels just before the bombings. That was later denied by the Israeli embassy, which had bizarrely said the opposite a little while before it.

    There is something fishy about it, but I prefer to believe conspiracy theories backed up by some evidence, rather than believing something just because it fits into my way of looking at the world. We have to avoid doing that, otherwise we end up selecting and reading info that fits into my our views only.

  114. susano — on 12th November, 2005 at 4:13 am  

    I know you’re right, Sunny. It’s all a bit of a minefield when it comes to spies, agents provacatuer, black ops, and the like. I’ve read enough about the facts around several big terror events to know that practically nothing is as the authorites or mainstream press says it is. In that respect, politics is stranger than a spy novel. Basically, I want to know what the hell is going on and who is behind it! Sometimes, that’s a pretty deep rabbit hole.

  115. PassingThrough — on 13th November, 2005 at 8:40 pm  

    Susano – earlier there I was thinking you didnt have a clue, yet there you are joining the dots between immigration/multiculturalism and globalisation. Well done, thats more like it! There is hope for you yet.

    Ive always been against unrestricted globalisation though Ive never quite got how the anti-globalisers could be against McDonalds but in favour of unrestricted immigration – never understood that at all. Many anti-globalists often turn out to favour transnational projects like the EU but not NAFTA. What is that about?

  116. Sunny — on 13th November, 2005 at 9:37 pm  

    Ive never quite got how the anti-globalisers could be against McDonalds but in favour of unrestricted immigration

    Simple. It is all about exploiting and opressing the poor and expendable. McDonalds destroys environments, kills animals in large numbers, pays people rubbish, leads to the degradation of environment and farmers all over the world etc.

    In the same way, immigrants are used as an excuse for racist hysteria, or an attempt to paint people of colour in a bad light.
    The immigrants come here to work hard and contribute to the economy. Usually they are invited for work, and contribute positively to society (plenty of literature to support this). If there was a sane and non-racist debate on immigration (seperate from a debate on asylum seekers), then I’d be happy to discuss it.

  117. Rohin — on 13th November, 2005 at 10:22 pm  

    “pays people rubbish”

    Add: “SERVES people rubbish”

  118. PassingThrough — on 14th November, 2005 at 3:22 am  

    Sunny – “opressing the poor and expendable” well thats part of thinking behind immigration from the 3rd world isnt it? Bring in plenty of folks willing to work hard for long hours and bingo youve eroded the pay of the indiginous workforce.

  119. PassingThrough — on 14th November, 2005 at 3:36 am  

    We have the bizarre situation today where big biz (eg McDonalds) gets its own way ie lots of cheap labour from the 3rd world but they dont have to defend it. Instead they can spout platitudes about valueing diversity, stamping out racism, bennetton, rainbow nation blah blah blah. They can get a bunch of lefties to make the economic arguments about needing immigrants, jobs we wont do etc

    So there you have it, McDonalds get what they want and sit back and allow the avowed defenders of the poor & working class to argue for the destruction of white working class earning power and importing a new oppressed group to replace them. Unfuckingbelieveable!

    I’m not blaming the immigrants for this, they ultimately are just pawns in the game.

  120. Sunny — on 14th November, 2005 at 3:52 am  

    and bingo youve eroded the pay of the indiginous workforce.
    There is no data to support this, specially in the UK. Real wages continue to rise despite extensive immigration.

    They can get a bunch of lefties to make the economic arguments about needing immigrants, jobs we wont do etc
    Govts can also force a rise in a minimum wage, which would attract the indigenous population to work at McDs.
    Lefties don’t make arguments for immigration, thats what the right-wing does. The lefties protect them from racism and inequality.

    destruction of white working class earning power
    Evidence? And like I said, minimum wage pal.

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