You have the people who view themselves as Centre or Centre Left and as forward thinking. They look down upon people who disagree points with them and hence those feel excluded and different. Anything you say is labelled as useless.

Soon people are labelled and away you go – the gang mentality has started. People gang up on other people, that is what Brisithsness is supposed to be, we are better than you, have better values than you, are more advanced than you, we know you want to be like us so why won’t you hurry up and do it.

On a broader scale this is a vote winner.

Marginalising people, not listening to them and then saying they need to engage was classic Blairism. The Blair years are defined by spin, presentationa nd not listenting to people and doing what he wanted. Then the press wonder why people feel detached. It is because of the environment created where a government won’t listen.

People don’t feel part of a wider society because:

1. They are made to feel different
2. They are under-represented
3. The Centre and Right aided and abetted by the neo-cons make people feel different.
4. The media wade in with demonising stories
5. Give voice to extremists and then say the majority are like that

Soon you have people detached from general society who feel they have no belonging or sense or belonging to a thing which is undefinable.

Everywhere ethnic people go they have to fill out forms saying what ethnicity they are and then the Beeb do a survey and publish “Shock Horror” Asians don’t feel British. But we are ready keep telling they are not by askign their ethnic grouping.

Britishness is something along the lines of drinking German/Danish Beer, eating Indian/Italian/Chinese food, driving a Japanese/European/American Car, going on holiday to Spain, Turkey or Greece, reading an Australians Newspaper and opinions and then saying you are British.

Making an issue about others not ‘feeling’ something that is inherently undefinable is obviously idiotic. I think the issue of social exclusion generally is more important, and trying to deal with that by proxy via nationalism is insane.

Its more critical to individually deal with why a ‘white’ person living in Scotland or a ‘brown’ person living in England feel like outsiders than it is to force the union flag down their throats.

Now im not going to be my usual condescending self to those who ask ‘why don’t you feel British’? because as it was recently pointed out to me the question may be meaningless but the underlying sentiment is sincere. What they’re asking is

‘why do you feel disconnected to me? why do you feel different?’

the desire to be empathetic is there its just unfortunately expressed in a way that doesn’t really offer any insight.

The point im trying to make is i couldn’t care less whether anyone ‘feels’ British or Austro-Hungarian or whatever, im much more interested in what makes them feel cut-off to whats around them. And from that whether they feel ‘excluded’ to the point its harmful to them or anyone else. Only in that way can you actually deal with what the fundamental problem is – the alternative is to paper over the cracks with flag-waving.

To give an analogy its meaningless to make students at a particular school ‘feel’ that school. There could well be problems with different groups of students not getting along and dealing with those issues is more important than getting them to collectively sing an anthem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6921534.stm

Any further comments from Thara will be deleted too, Picklers, as s/he is now banned, so if I were you I’d save my energy and refrain from responding.

And now… I return to my butternut squash risotto. Butternut squash: the king of vegetables.

I’d recommend that our constitution states a monthly citizenship test to keep us all in check, on our toes. A heavy penalty, and ostracising, of those who fail to live up to our nazional vitality.
What say you Sunny?
The problem with our country is that there isn’t much militaristic discipline.

I’ve deleted all of Thara’s messages and he/she is subsequently banned for posting personal information about other people. All further messages from that person will be deleted.

Someone here with a surplus of vowels, I think.

Well, I’ve never seen it either. Produce evidence, young Thara…

Oops, you can’t.

Sorry matey, I don’t do big words. They’re too un-English.

Pert Breast, they are the autochthonous people of this land, aren’t they?

As someone with somewhat rudimentary understanding of science, I think “racial” and “ethnic” identities are equally shit. As a father, I refuse to reduce my child to some idiot’s idee fixe.

Thara, “Sylhetis” like the “Punjabis” are gorgeous people. Sylheti women have a certain I-don’t-know-what about them.

“Sometimes,
all I need is the air
that I breathe
and to love
you”

If by that you mean the Scots, Welsh and Irish you are indeed a true Englishman sir.

is that the idea? Perhaps if you actually provided an analysis – it would help people get their thinking hats on about what you said. I’m afraid your post was rather short and starting to sound a bit politician-y ( are you practising) – and doesn’t explain at all how you really a constitution answers these very complex questions. Political values -yes – do you mean democracy? What don’t we know – that we will – with the Constitution in place? Don’t we know explicitly what our political values are? Perhaps we need a Press Release rather than a Constitution?

are you also suggesting the political apathy problem could be addressed through this writing of the constitution?

I’m pretty sure if you put this idea forward – you need to explain your model in some depth. I mean – why should a Constitution in itself foster a sense of social and civic duty? We could parrot on about the institution of Common Law, and how that is ‘British’ – and how it gives you these rights, and expects you to be a Good Citizen and all the same kind of fanfare you hear the Americans giving their Constitution.

And also – you mention other countries – can you give us some idea of how you see the national identity playing out in Canada and New Zealand? HAs the constitution solved the Quebecois issue? Perhaps it has. Oh and Soso’s comment was interesting – what did you think about that?

What I find really worrying though Sunny – is the idea that you really do seem to think that complex social problems have simple ‘press that button, write that document, pass that law’ solutions. Here, you are displaying good potential for being a future politician. It is also very disappointing. \

Are we to never get away from a real consideration of problems -and acknowledgement that there may be no short-term solutions? and be stuck with – “look at me!i’ve got the solution” – type of thinking that politics seems to engender?

should be interesting to see if this sort of thing will create more of a divide. ( sod’s law being what it is – heh)

British/English
British/Scottish
British/Welsh
British/Irish

i don’t know why you shouldn’t be described as an Englishman Muhammad, if you feel able to call yourself British – why shouldn’t you be an Englishman? and do you know if the ‘hillbillies’ are pissed off? ( very nice broad categorisation from yourself – i see at least you’re not reciprocating on the broad brush strokes approach yourself) I can’t see how if “English” is meant to denote an ethnicity – why the same can’t apply to “British”. Yes i hear Sunny is trying to encourage people to ‘re-appropriate’ the British label – but the same could be argued for any of the other English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish labels..?