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  • BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again


    by Sunny
    4th May, 2011 at 10:07 am    

    Yesterday BBC Newsnight needed ‘Muslim reaction’ to the death of Osama Bin Laden’. They couldn’t find any Muslim who would support OBL, so they thought that would not balanced. They wanted some sparks and needed Muslims to argue with each other, so they invited Anjem Choudhary.

    ANJEM CHOUDHARY! The guy who leads about 50 nutjobs and has been banned from almost every Mosque in the country. The guy who is constantly ridiculed and pilloried by other British Muslims for his attention-seeking stunts and promoting his extremist minority sect. This is the guy BBC Newsnight decide should be part of a two-man panel representing British Muslim voices!

    It boggles the mind how patronising some people at the BBC still are. They aren’t interested in representing a broad range of mainstream Muslim opinion: they just want to see the ethnics argue.

    At one point Jeremy Paxman turns to Taj Hargey and says, “What do you think of that response [referring to Choudhary] when you hear it, purporting to represent your community“. - oh FFS! Paxman, we’re not in the fucking British Raj any more.

    No one owns or leads entire ethnic or religious communities. It boggles the mind that this is 2011 and this is how BBC Newsnight still conduct their debates.


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    Filed in: British Identity,Islamists,Media






    114 Comments below   |  

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    1. sunny hundal

      Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    2. Woodo

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    3. Jim

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    4. Shamaila

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    5. DeathBoy

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    6. BantheEDL

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    7. Mike Barton

      #BBCNewsnight patronises British Muslims again http://t.co/qxvjZUg #fail


    8. sarcastic git

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN > my thoughts exactly


    9. michelle fines

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    10. Edward Bearryman

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    11. Mehdi Hasan

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    12. Rukiyah Khatun

      RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    13. Anthony Painter

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >>Hear, hear! <Brilliant.


    14. Colm Quinn

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    15. SHAZIA ARSHAD

      brilliant article RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    16. SHAZIA ARSHAD

      well said!! RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    17. dnrfilms

      RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    18. ih

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    19. Jack Seale

      RT @anthonypainter: RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN & …


    20. Zubeda Mir

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    21. Joshua Dummer

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    22. KonWomyn

      Pickled Politics » BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://t.co/qxvjZUg #OBL


    23. Joluni

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    24. Shaista Aziz

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    25. Stephen Clarke

      BBC must learn balance is abt weight, not just numbersRT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    26. Jerome Taylor

      Sigh. BBC Newsnight decides Anjem Choudhury should be part of a two-man panel representing British Muslims http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    27. Ali No1

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    28. Maureen Czarnecki

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    29. Anti Racist Atheist

      RT @KarmaUnc RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN #EDL #BNP


    30. Moazzam Ali Asghar

      RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN > spot on. maybe should use nick griffin next time.


    31. Nemesis Republic

      RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British #Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN #EDL #BNP


    32. Tha Captain'

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    33. paurina

      Pickled Politics » BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again: http://bit.ly/loAjtd thx to @sunny_hundal


    34. sameerrahim

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    35. Kurban Chitalya

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    36. Noxi

      RT @nemesisrepublic: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British #Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN #EDL #BNP


    37. Andy Bean

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    38. Maxine Lyseight Monu

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    39. Bob Collins

      RT @anthonypainter: RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN & …


    40. Daniel O'Gorman

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    41. 5 Chinese Crackers

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    42. Jesse Armstrong

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    43. Will Mac

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    44. richard hughes

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    45. Shazia Awan

      RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    46. Jane Phillips

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    47. Wigwam

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    48. Qaiser Abbas

      RT @ns_mehdihasan: RT @sunny_hundal Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN >> Hear, hear!


    49. links for 2011-05-04 « Embololalia

      [...] Pickled Politics » BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again No one owns or leads entire ethnic or religious communities. It boggles the mind that this is 2011 and this is how BBC Newsnight still conduct their debates. (tags: al-qaeda british.muslims bbc) [...]


    50. bobthomson70

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    51. Asif Khan

      saw this and the BBC are awful cunts RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    52. Dave Valentine

      RT @sunny_hundal: Blogged: : BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    53. BigPhatWritersGroup

      RT @sunny_hundal: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/io4eiN


    54. Naadir Jeewa

      Going to write a complaint to the BBC. For choosing rent-a-Jihadi Anjem Choudary to represent ALL British Muslims: http://bit.ly/mSdh9r


    55. Patrick Osgood

      Couldn't agree with this more: #Newsnight affording noxious idiot Choudary oxygen of publicity http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/12548


    56. Ziggy Stardust

      BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/l30DPB #edl


    57. Nemesis Republic

      RT @Zzigggyyy: BBC Newsnight patronises British Muslims again http://bit.ly/l30DPB #edl




    1. Kismet Hardy — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:11 am  

      Speechless

      (it’s almost as if the media want people to be afraid… for a change)

    2. Rumbold — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:18 am  

      Presumably non-Muslim reaction to OBL’s death will be articulated by the head of an extreme neo-Nazi group, which is reperesentative of British whites?

    3. Helen — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:32 am  

      And who would that be, Rumbold? The Labour Party? You can’t get more warmongering and culturally divisive than those pricks.

    4. PeeJay — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:42 am  

      The BBC asks one anti Binladenist to comment and one person who is sympathetic to Bin Laden. If you don’t like Anjem whatever write to the Beeb and give them the name of someone you do like who is a binladenphile.

    5. BenSix — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:49 am  

      Let’s recall that Choudary isn’t just an Islamist Alf Garnett. As the former Al-Muhajiroun have played a serious role in radicalisation this habit of boosting him is also dangerous.

    6. Rumbold — on 4th May, 2011 at 10:51 am  

      Helen:

      Sorry, I don’t follow you. I was pointing out that the BBC would never treat the white majority in that way, by suggesting that a small extremist group ‘represented’ them (in fact, no one is invited on TV to ‘represent’ whites, as only minorities need to speak with one voice).

    7. douglas clark — on 4th May, 2011 at 11:32 am  

      Can’t quite see the point of assuming that every discussion requires a ‘balance’ between the sane and the insane.

      If we took that to it’s logical (hah!) conclusion David Icke should be on every channel 24/7 making the point that everything is down to our lizard overlords. Well, it’s a point of view, in’t it?

    8. Helen — on 4th May, 2011 at 11:43 am  

      I got what you meant, Rumbold. I do agree with you. I want to smack their heads together when they roll out the odd “government sponsored muslim,” or “extremist muslim” to speak for their “communities.”
      I was being saracastic, but it’s difficult to get tone of voice on the net.

      I’m not muslim. I am white. I am English. My ancestors were English at least back as far ass 1100′s, when one got banged up for annoying his Norman rulers. That makes me almost certainly of non-Norman descent, as well. My maiden name can be found in old English surnmaes dictionaries. You don’t get more English than that.

      However, I don’t speak for everyone white and English. Nor would I pretend to. It’s arrogance beyond belief. We’re all different and how boring the world would be, if we weren’t.

      The term “community leaders” irritates me. Especially when it’s almost always men. It would certainly wind me up, if I were muslim woman.

    9. Kismet Hardy — on 4th May, 2011 at 12:21 pm  

      What constitues a non-elected spokesperson for a community anyway? Someone who talks the loudest and seeks the most attention by saying stuff designed to shock and irritate?

      Bad news guys. BBC are doing a political blog debate. I’ve been asked to represent Pickled Politics

      Ahahahahahahhhahahaha

    10. Boyo — on 4th May, 2011 at 12:58 pm  

      What Sunny said, although from what I read there is a sizeable minority of Muslim opinion in the UK which appears to be more “pro” than anti OBL’s views. A fairer panel would have consisted of about six which would have included someone like Anjem, the head of Bethnal Green mosque, a mainstream Islamist, a couple of “mainstream” non-Islamist Muslims, and someone from MFSD? Would this have been fairer? Certainly more so than was presented.

      Having said that, the whole multi-culti shindig was always racist and designed to pacify both incomers and settled communities, so it’s a bit late to be crying foul!

    11. Riffler — on 4th May, 2011 at 1:19 pm  

      That’s what passes for balance on the BBC - on climate change, on everything. They’ll be trawling mental hospitals for interviewees next.

    12. Leon — on 4th May, 2011 at 1:30 pm  

      *facepalm*

    13. Rosie — on 4th May, 2011 at 3:15 pm  

      Cripes & FFS! I thought they had dumped Choudary as the voice of anything except his own fantasies.

      I took my representative voice to be that woman in Luton who said politely she would not, of course, have wished that death on anyone, but on the whole it was better that he was dead. That was vastly preferable to American triumphalism. How sane and English, I thought.

    14. Rumbold — on 4th May, 2011 at 3:22 pm  

      Helen:

      I agree wholeheartedly. And it is very difficult to convey sarcasm online.

    15. Helen — on 4th May, 2011 at 4:17 pm  

      To be fair to the BBC, they have a programme to fill and their researchers have a list of potential speakers for each particular news item. Its a recipe they’ve used for so many years they can’t think outside the box anymore. Boring as hell and patronising to many.

      Perhaps they could be more original in their choice of guests, though.

      I would suggest Christopher Hitchens and Choudhary battling it out on our screens. It’s a crying shame that Hitchens is so ill, but it would make for fascinating viewing to watch an anti-theist and an extremist slug it out verbally on our screens, instead of the usual sanitised crap they feed us.

    16. Shamit — on 4th May, 2011 at 4:31 pm  

      BBC lost it - but it waa funny to see how Anjem Chaudhary thinks the Arab masses can be indoctrinated back to the ways of the religion as he sees it.

      Putting loonies like that on television has its advantages - and if anyone gets persuaded by the obviously moronic arguments then one is already too far gone. But it does tell the world how intellectually bankrupt and ideologically foolish these loonies are.

      But that does not excuse BBC’s behaviour - in fact it is contemptuous.

      *****************
      Boyo - what is the percentage of “pro OBL” views in Britain among the wider British Muslim population?

      I would say fairly small and definitely in single digits - poll after poll has proven that.

      Daily Mail would of course suggest otherwise. That said we have too many nutters across all communities in this country.

    17. Don — on 4th May, 2011 at 4:53 pm  

      I could scarcely believe when I switched on and found that Chaudhary’s was apparently 50% of the voices worth hearing.

      @Douglas #7

      Dara O’Brien on ‘balance’;

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvMb90hem8

    18. Jai — on 4th May, 2011 at 5:28 pm  

      Agreed completely with Sunny’s article. To extrapolate the analogy which some others have correctly mentioned on this thread, it would be the equivalent of the BBC deciding to invite Nick Griffin vs. the Archbishop of Canterbury in order to have a so-called “balanced” discussion about the “Christian reaction” to a major global event.

    19. Boyo — on 4th May, 2011 at 6:00 pm  

      @16, well i suppose that depends on views on what. 40 per cent would like to see Sharia introduced for example, and in the same poll 1 in 5 have some sympathy with the 7/7 bombers, although on 1 per cent thought it was right to carry it out.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

      In another poll “nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed” !!!!

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion

      Here, one in 10 think the 7/7 bombers should be considered martyrs - that’s around 150,000 people.

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article682599.ece

      On the other hand there’s a LC article here that points out how polls can be used to smear Muslims (although it becomes embroiled in its own controversy in the comments).

      http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/05/04/smearing-british-muslims-through-opinion-polls/

      However I think my point for “sizeable minority” still stands if that applies to straight - martyrs, execution, and sharia views, and having Anjem as one of six, or maybe seven panel members, would be proportionately correct?

    20. Sunny — on 4th May, 2011 at 8:09 pm  

      Boyo - that lame sharia poll was dissected and trashed here.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/dec/22/1

    21. douglas clark — on 4th May, 2011 at 8:19 pm  

      Don @ 17,

      Thanks for that!

    22. damon — on 4th May, 2011 at 11:07 pm  

      So is anyone going to complain to Newsnight about it?

    23. Cluebot — on 5th May, 2011 at 1:12 am  

      It would certainly wind me up, if I were muslim woman.

      If you were a Muslim woman, you wouldn’t even think of being wound up. Your upbringing to be a subservient brood mare under a tent would have seen to that.

    24. platinum786 — on 5th May, 2011 at 8:36 am  

      I’m surprised Anjem Choudary doesn’t have a job with Press TV yet. It’s always good to know that my license fee is being put to good use to malign me and my community and people who give value to the views represented by Anjem Choudary.

      Are there not enough Muslim public figures that they need to wheel this guy out?

    25. fugstar — on 5th May, 2011 at 10:26 am  

      Taj Hargey and anjem choudhury, sitting in a tree
      Together annoying the hell out of everybody

    26. Kismet Hardy — on 5th May, 2011 at 10:58 am  

      “If you were a Muslim woman, you wouldn’t even think of being wound up. Your upbringing to be a subservient brood mare under a tent would have seen to that.”

      Tell that to my four-time haaji father, who got whacked over the head by my mum last night for making too much noise over manchester united winning

      Cluelessclot.

    27. Sarah AB — on 5th May, 2011 at 11:05 am  

      Yet again Islamophobia and ultra-Islamism speak with one voice.

    28. Victoria Hume — on 5th May, 2011 at 12:44 pm  

      totally appalling misrepresentation. does it get brought up on ‘feedback’ ever?

    29. Refresh — on 5th May, 2011 at 3:40 pm  

      ‘To be fair to the BBC, they have a programme to fill and their researchers have a list of potential speakers for each particular news item.’

      I recall receiving a call from a BBC researcher (goodness knows how they got hold of my number) to join them to discuss one of the invasions, I politely declined on the basis that it was too late.

      They wanted to fill airtime and I wanted to stop the loss of life.

    30. AbuF — on 5th May, 2011 at 8:14 pm  

      Kismet Hardy

      I am *married to* a Muslim woman who is so fearsome that I am scared to come home sometimes…

    31. Kismet Hardy — on 5th May, 2011 at 8:26 pm  

      ha ha. I always wonder about those chaps that want four wives. Four mistresses I can just about appreciate, assuming you have the money and time, but four hardcore wives on your case? Massochists or what?

    32. Ismaeel — on 6th May, 2011 at 11:30 am  

      Yes Anjem Choudhury is deeply unrepresentative of British Muslims but then so is Taj Hajrey, they probably represent less than a few hundred people between them. They are both theological extremists- one ultra wahabbi jihadist and the other an ultra liberal Qur’an only modernist. Neither are in tune with the majority of British Muslims.

    33. douglas clark — on 6th May, 2011 at 11:57 am  

      Off topic.

      Your boys got a hell of a beating. I look forward to the end of the UK.

      We quite like our muslim friends. they tend to vote SNP!

    34. Refresh — on 6th May, 2011 at 12:44 pm  

      Well done up north!

    35. Rumbold — on 6th May, 2011 at 3:10 pm  

      Douglas:

      I look forward to the end of the UK

      And we in the South will have more money as a result. Thanks Douglas!

    36. Don — on 6th May, 2011 at 3:38 pm  

      And you can keep your hands off Berwick, too.

    37. earwicga — on 6th May, 2011 at 4:56 pm  

      Keep your money Rumbold. And your Tories too.

    38. douglas clark — on 6th May, 2011 at 5:32 pm  

      Well, we don’t patronize anyone. Not the English, not the Asians, no-one.

      I refer you all to our recent election college, and, contrary to Don if we had the bottle to stand in Berwick, I think we’d win there too.

      Elsewhere, I had this to say:

      I love this web site. I love you all. We have won when everyone said we wouldn’t.

      It is a quite amazing time to be alive.

      Three hundred years upset in a single vote. Scots of every type standing up for being us. Asians, settlers, the whole damn lot of us.

      Ya beauty!

      Where do we go from here?

      And Rumbold’s half assed ideas about GERS would be seen for the naivety of South Central London that it ought to be.

      I love this web site, I truly do. But it is a pretence to claim that London is not a net beneficiary of revenue. It is. And until you non Londoners stand up and tell it as it is, you too will be raped of every last penny in favour of the Westminster Village.

      It is interesting. Asian Scots appear to have no difficulty voting SNP. Is that because we don’t give a shit about all your anglo-centric stuff, and neither do they? As far as they are concerned, they are Scots, and the rest of us see themas so too?

      You are Scottish if you say you are. That is, more or less, the criteria.

      We are inclusive, not exclusive.

      I like what we stand for. I dislike what you lot, appear, to stand for.

      So. There.

    39. douglas clark — on 6th May, 2011 at 6:02 pm  

      Incidentally,

      I completely agree with Rumbold on a huge range of issues. That is because neither he nor I assume too much about each others philosophy.

      It seems to me that friendship outweighs argument.

      Well, I would say that, wouldn’t I?

      ;-)

    40. earwicga — on 6th May, 2011 at 6:44 pm  

      Friday started early up there Douglas?

    41. Sarah AB — on 6th May, 2011 at 7:00 pm  

      As a former resident of Scotland (and very nice it is too) I wonder whether it might be a teeny bit easier to be an Asian Scot than an English one?

    42. KJB — on 6th May, 2011 at 11:42 pm  

      What Sarah said.

      I would like, if possible, to nominate a friend of mine to be a new rent-a-Muslim for the BBC? She ticks THREE boxes, being blind, Muslim and female. Much more importantly, she is more representative of all the Muslims I’ve ever met than AC, in a million years.

      (I’m half-serious here - as a bilingual psychologist and soon-to-be pain researcher with an actual sense of humour, she properly deserves a place on the TV!)

    43. douglas clark — on 7th May, 2011 at 6:30 am  

      Sarah AB @ 41,

      Think so.

      I stood outside a polling station handing out cards to folk. Lots of Asians took them, and they made up around 20% of the folk that voted when I was there. It occurs to me that they may have a better understanding of what independence actually entails than the rest of us.

      Dunno.

    44. douglas clark — on 7th May, 2011 at 6:36 am  

      earwicga @ 40,

      Yup.

    45. Boyo — on 7th May, 2011 at 8:26 am  

      Pain researcher with a sense of humour… I’m not sure why that worries me.

      Douglas, I think it is an interesting point for discussion that Scottish nationalism is largely kept alive by a lack of English nationalism. It is an outrage that English taxes pay for cheap higher education, prescription charges, etc north of the border, while Scots (Blair, Brown, and Cameron, to name a few) impose their crazy policies on the English.

      It’s true that the (declining) oil supply would make Scotland a richer place, although the Barnett formula reimburses income up to a point. However, weighed against the tremendous investment by the English in Scotland since the Act of Union, alongside the English money that doubtless went in to developing the oil industry, I suspect Scotland would take quite some time to break even.

      This wouldn’t happen of course, and were I Scottish I might be all for independence, but the phrase “be careful what you wish for” does rather spring to mind. It was largely English money, for example, that bailed out RBS, wasn’t it?

    46. Rumbold — on 7th May, 2011 at 9:18 am  

      Douglas and Earwiga:

      What would be interesting would be if Wales and Scotland got independence. Then they would have to reapply for membership to the EU, subject to a French referendum.

    47. AbuF — on 7th May, 2011 at 10:55 am  

      Interesting stuff. I am not a nationalist (of any particular stripe or allegiance), at the same time I am most certainly not a unionist.

      My take on things is that the closest possible union is as a result of the free will of those drawn together in that union. Quite clearly, the present constitutional arrangements in the UK do not meet that requirement that any union be free, fair and of mutual consent.

      At the same time, I am not convinced that union requires the sort of unitary state for which too many unionists yearn. There are many ways in which the constituent countries of the British Isles might profitably interact including federation, confederation and as independent states drawn together as a region under the ambit of the European Union and other political, economic and cultural agreements.

      In short, if the peoples of Wales and Scotland want to become independent states, then so be it. I am not indifferent to the ills of nationalism - but I am also not indifferent to the injustices and unworkability of sustaining a union between countries founded in the far off distant days of feudal expansionism.

      I am not attracted to the politics of SNP (pace Douglas), nor PC - both of which strike me as politically opportunist and capable of being all things to all people (I am not convinced by the nationalist argument that nationalism forms some sort of third force besides Left and Right), but that has nothing to do with the issue of independence as a principle, the right to self-determination.

    48. Boyo — on 7th May, 2011 at 11:14 am  

      I think one thing that is overlooked - wrongly, but typically - and I’m sure both Scottish and Welsh nationalists would agree with, is holding a referendum on English independence from them at the same time.

      In particular I think the English would be enthusiastic to ditch Northern Ireland and Wales, which have been a massive drain on resources for many years, and may well make up for much of any short fall as a result of the loss of Scottish oil.

      I think these English Democrat ads are on the ball and funny…

      http://www.youtube.com/EnglishDemocrat#p/a/u/1/8ZKZ1oLYB0M

      The only thing that is stopping all this is the complacency of the English and the hunger for power of the politicians.

      I mean, who wouldn’t want to wave goodbye to Ulster?!

    49. Shamit — on 7th May, 2011 at 2:04 pm  

      Douglas:

      Congratulations! What a victory - guess Scottish voters don’t like being taken for granted.

      But if SNP thinks this victory could be extrapolated towards a yes to independence referendum I think its being less than pragmatic.

      The Scottish voters want SNP to deliver on the pledges they made during the elections which means maintaining police numbers and adding a 1,000 more.

      Means trying to restructure police an being accused of centralising police power in Edinburgh rather than leaving them at the local hands.

      The health and social care merger is not being taken too kindly by local authorities and is supposed to cost £300 Million.

      And whole host of univeral benefits against a backdrop of the biggest fiscal squeeze in Scottish public sector funding. No redundancy, no tuition fees, no prescription charges yet be able to meet the funding gap between Scottish and English Higher Education, maintain all services, no council tax rise but a local income tax proposal which Mr. Salmond hid from voters.

      In fact he went to the Scottish High Court twice at taxpayers expense to overturn a ruling from the Scottish Information Commissioner on that.

      Great campaign if you can deliver on your promises but very very dangerous if you fail to live up to your expectations - look at Nick Clegg.

      And if Mr. Scotland fails to deliver on public administration then the referendum would be lost even before the campaign began.

      *********************************************

      On overall UK elections: David Cameron is the big winner.

      The Tories did prove to be incredibly resilient and delivered a thumping win for No to AV. David Cameron is a much stronger Prime Minister today and Conservative Leader than he was on 10th May 2010.

      Spin it the way you want the fact is Labour got less than 988 seats won by Michael Foot and it won back its own voters who defected to the Lib Dems in the last decade or so. Yet, the vote share is still too close to Tories and no guarantees from Scotland.

      So no chance of a Labour win. So did AV deliver the right leadership result for Labour? On the evidence of it the answer is NO.

      Nah the country opted for heir to Blair and rejects the progressive majority - how dare the electorate do that?

      No wonder the country voted resoundingly NO to AV from Scottish Highlands to Pembrokeshire to Cornwall and anywhere else you could think of - except for the bastion of Progressive Majority Islington.

    50. Boyo — on 7th May, 2011 at 2:30 pm  

      “very very dangerous if you fail to live up to your expectations”
      Er… then you just blame it on the English. Sorry “Westminster Parliament”.

      Good point re AV - a disaster for Labour and the country. Do we really have to wait four more years for an election Labour will lose under Ed until we can get rid of him?

    51. nobodieshero — on 7th May, 2011 at 10:45 pm  

      sooner we get rid of the scots the better join iceland
      why can i say anti scot things but my pro edl message get deleted

    52. nobodieshero — on 7th May, 2011 at 10:48 pm  

      im not nationalistic but when i get a smack in the mouth i use my money and the british police

    53. nobodieshero — on 7th May, 2011 at 11:48 pm  

      oh shit it s not been deleted the indian nerds must be a sleep

    54. Boyo — on 8th May, 2011 at 6:54 am  

      Hm… I suspect not!

    55. Refresh — on 8th May, 2011 at 9:38 am  

      The only success Cameron can claim is that they’ve been able to manage the media.

      These results indicate the Tories remain toxic, anyone who gets close to them pay a heavy price. Lib Dems deserve the thrashing they got, not least for their naivete.

      And New Labour still casts a shadow over Ed Milliband, if there had been a plausible alternative as there was in Scotland, then Labour would have fared a lot worse in England too.

    56. Shamit — on 8th May, 2011 at 12:02 pm  

      Refresh -

      Valiant effort to defend Ed Miliband but I think your assessment is probably missing a few points.

      “The only success Cameron can claim is that they’ve been able to manage the media.”

      They persuaded the electorate on AV as well as their policies.

      They gained seats in Wales and raised their vote share to 25% and the total vote share in England has been higher than it has ever been in the last 25 years.

      This too when the government is cutting public expenditures and everyday the narrative on TV news to media and blogosphere has been how Tories are wrecking the economy.

      In a local election with unpopular decisions they gained seats and councils.

      Arguing they only got the media is insulting to the electorate and if they are so toxic why is there vote share up?

      I guess the electorate is stupid.

      New Labour - Ed Miliband & Scotland

      Sorry New Labour had nothing to do with this dismal loss in Scotland or the lacklustre results in England.

      In Scotland, Mr. Miliband (overruling the Scottish labour Party) decided to make the Scottish election about the cuts in Westminster - he ran that campaign and he also lost verbal battles on Reneewables with Alex Salmond.

      Each seat he campaigned for fell to the SNP - you can blame it on Blair but again that would be insulting the electorate.

      English Local Elections

      In the English local elections, the Labour party picked up the protest votes in its former heartland and Lib Dems probably have lost those votes for good (which incidentally they anyway picked up from Labour in the past decade).

      But beyond that there was no progress in places like Doncaster (Ed Miliband’s constituency - not a single of the nine Tory councillors lost their seats).

      So yes, its all Blair’s fault might make the “progressive majority (whatever its called today)” feel better but that would be just another simple demonstration of how far that “progressive majority” is from understanding the views of the electorate.

      There is a tendency among otherwise excellent political analysts to fall in the bubble of their own choir. And loving the typical questions we want answered.

      Like for example, we want those making over £100K to pay more taxes - you get a majority opinion in a poll and get excited but no one asked the respondents how important is it to them when it comes to voting?

      The election campaign run by Labour and the YES campaign were amateurish and took the electorate for granted because the leaders of the campaign thought the electorate shares their view.

      But then came the reality check - so I suggest your assertions are completely wrong and analysis is based on your bias against Blair and New Labour. It might be soothing but is erroneous just the same.

    57. Refresh — on 8th May, 2011 at 9:50 pm  

      Shamit,

      I wasn’t particularly supporting Ed Milliband. But the evidence of my claim was provided by Cameron himself today, when he promised Nick Clegg that he would let him be more assertive from now on. No joke.

      If your estimation had been correct, then it would fall to Cameron to tell his chastened partner to ‘calm down dear’. But no. Lib Dems get trashed by the electorate and they get a bigger say!

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